Breaking lights at empty crossroads = victimless crime, or is it?

biko

biko wrote: »

Are there traffic regulations you feel are open to interpretation? Which ones?

If a red light was broken and stuck on red would you sit there all day until someone comes and fixes it?

When a light is orange you interpret if it's safer to proceed or slam on the breaks.

Speed limits may be too fast for the conditions, do you just drive at the limit regardless.

There are interpretations for nearly every rule.

biko

I hope I am not about to cross that intersection when you decide you have waited long enough at that red light.

dil999

Adriana Bewildered Neighbor wrote: »

If a red light was broken and stuck on red would you sit there all day until someone comes and fixes it?

When a light is orange you interpret if it's safer to proceed or slam on the breaks.

Speed limits may be too fast for the conditions, do you just drive at the limit regardless.

There are interpretations for nearly every rule.

1: Yes is happens so often
2: Rules of the road state you stop it it safe to do so. Doesn't require an analytical brain
3: Its a limit. You do understand what a limit is

None of these are interpretations. they are you misunderstanding the rules of the road.


From reading your posts, particularly the one re children operating farm machinery, you obviously don't have the capacity or skill to make the type of the decisions you think you should be allowed make.

The rules of the road, not guidelines, rules, are designed to protect road users from people who think "I'm an excellent driver" and clearly are not.

Purple Mountain

There's a T junction in a village near me with a STOP on the road.
There is a green on the T so oncoming traffic can be seen for 100m or so.
From what I can see people yield there instead of stopping dead.

dil999

grogi wrote: »

But law is a written set of articles. Its application depends on the interpretation, and EVERYONE has own interpretation.

Otherwise we would not need courts.

From other posts on here I know you have zero knowledge of the law. That statement proves the point. The only people that get to interpret the law are Judges. In Ireland, the Law is not just a written set of articles. It is based on statutes, the constitution and common law. The Irish legal system is a highly complex hierarchical system, and requires more than Google to get a cursory understanding

Bottom line, unless you are a Judge you don't get to interpret the law, you get to obey it.

EPAndlee

The only red lights I've ever gone through is the road works traffic lights with a timer at night

grogi

dil999 wrote: »

Bottom line, unless you are a Judge you don't get to interpret the law, you get to obey it.

I am genuinely jealous for your absolute knowledge.

How should I know what is the law (when it is so complex?) I don't, you don't. Nobody really can know for certain what the law was until the highest court rules. Until then I have to use my best knowledge of the current state of the law and apply interpretation of what I know for the specific situation.

I guess we simply don't agree the meaning of the word interpretation.

grogi

biko wrote: »

So you think roundabout rules are open to interpretation?

Or, do you think there is one correct way laid out in traffic rules, and a lot of people that don't follow the rules?

I think there is one proper way and I have stated it numerous times here. But I am certain other drivers also believe their way is the right way...

Unless we get a precedent, everyone will apply their own interpretation.

-- edit

Here's another one - what does 'slow moving traffic' mean (in context of overtaking in the left lane)? Is 40@120 slow?!

Isambard

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

Poll still only says 30% break lights so there's a large majority who follow the law, even at 4am in rural village.

Good for them

this instance perhaps but do they rigidly stick to the Law in all circumstances? Can't have it both ways

dil999

dil999 wrote: »

1: Yes is happens so often

Sitting at a broken red light is idiotic, I've never seen anyone sit there and wait. How many hours would you sit there while people deaffen you with their horns and drive around you before you would decide to move on?

dil999 wrote: »

1
From reading your posts, particularly the one re children operating farm machinery, you obviously don't have the capacity or skill to make the type of the decisions you think you should be allowed make.

The rules of the road, not guidelines, rules, are designed to protect road users from people who think "I'm an excellent driver" and clearly are not.

Well it was my parents and relations decision to allow me to drive as a child and I see other local farmers training their children to drive young also still. As for using the rules of the road as guidelines its served me well for the 16 years I've been driving cars and other machinery on the roads and covering considerable mileage in that time.

There isn't a single driver on the road who doesn't break some of the rules at times, you are kidding yourself if you think there is.

Synthol

Sheeplets liken usually using a light bulb instead of common sense. You give your life for a light bulb instead of using any sense.

dil999

Synthol wrote: »

Sheeplets liken usually using a light bulb instead of common sense. You give your life for a light bulb instead of using any sense.

Very Deep. I think that synthol has swelled your brain up a little.

dr.fuzzenstein

The broken light one is a good example.
How long would you sit there? Half an hour, one hour, half a day? Longer?
What if it happened at night? Would you turn off the engine and go to sleep and wait till the morning until a repair crew comes?
What if it happened Friday evening and the light can't be fixed till Monday? Would you sit there in your car till then?
I guess you could always call the Gardai and tell them your predicament and ask them to send a squad car to direct you safely through the red light. I'm sure ASG are very eager to call out quickly and help you.

GM228

grogi wrote: »

dil999 wrote: »

Bottom line, unless you are a Judge you don't get to interpret the law, you get to obey it.

I am genuinely jealous for your absolute knowledge.

How should I know what is the law (when it is so complex?) I don't, you don't. Nobody really can know for certain what the law was until the highest court rules. Until then I have to use my best knowledge of the current state of the law and apply interpretation of what I know for the specific situation.

I guess we simply don't agree the meaning of the word interpretation.

Not every law requires a judgement from the highest court to know for certain, in fact when you look at the entire body of law only a very very small percentage does.

With regards to "how should I know what is the law" and using "best knowledge", the well tested and sound legal principle of Ignorantia legis neminem excusat applies.

Feel free to interpret the law how you like, but that does not mean your interpretation is correct though no matter how much knowledge you have or how you apply it to the specific situation.

GM228

Adriana Bewildered Neighbor wrote: »

If a red light was broken and stuck on red would you sit there all day until someone comes and fixes it?

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The broken light one is a good example.
How long would you sit there? Half an hour, one hour, half a day? Longer?
What if it happened at night? Would you turn off the engine and go to sleep and wait till the morning until a repair crew comes?
What if it happened Friday evening and the light can't be fixed till Monday? Would you sit there in your car till then?
I guess you could always call the Gardai and tell them your predicament and ask them to send a squad car to direct you safely through the red light. I'm sure ASG are very eager to call out quickly and help you.

Traffic lights must be lighted and extinguished in turn, at intervals determined by an automatic or manually operated device, if they don't (i.e they are defective) you are not required to obey them as they no longer have a lawful standing.

The issue however which arises is how long the interval should be - what is the longest red light sequence in Ireland? I'd say no more than 5 or 6 minutes perhaps.

sunnysoutheast

I was thinking of this thread when I was dropping the kids off earlier, there is a traffic light which can take an absolute age to change early in the morning.

I was just about to inch forward to go through it to turn left - thinking it must be busted - when it finally changed, the second car just coming to a stop at the red light on the other side of the road was a fecking traffic corps car.

Isambard

i'd say you weren't up to the line and not activating the sensor. Maybe you did inch forward enough to get it to work?

sunnysoutheast

Isambard wrote: »

i'd say you weren't up to the line and not activating the sensor. Maybe you did inch forward enough to get it to work?

No was right at the front at the line. Flashed my lights at it too!

I think it just has odd programming in the early morning.

Synthol

Traffic lights should be turned off like in most countries during the night and a system of primary/secondary road used. It's absolutely ridiculous when you are going somewhere in the middle of the night and sit at the traffic lights for 5 minutes waiting until all the pedestrian lights go off even though there is nobody in sight for miles. You just sit there for ages because you have to obey a light bulb.

doolox

Red light on for ages. Taxi ahead of me waited for 4 or 5 minutes then pulled out carefully onto the dual carriageway when it was empty.

I pulled out in a similar fashion with no harm done.

On a similar note the lights at the Brewery Road interchange went off and there was complete chaos. I was intending to turn right but quickly changed my mind to a left turn which was still physically possible, then went towards town, did a u turn and was able to get through the junction while people around me were stuck trying to make a right turn on an unlit traffic junction.

Synthol

doolox wrote: »

Red light on for ages. Taxi ahead of me waited for 4 or 5 minutes then pulled out carefully onto the dual carriageway when it was empty.

I pulled out in a similar fashion with no harm done.

On a similar note the lights at the Brewery Road interchange went off and there was complete chaos. I was intending to turn right but quickly changed my mind to a left turn which was still physically possible, then went towards town, did a u turn and was able to get through the junction while people around me were stuck trying to make a right turn on an unlit traffic junction.

You should be sentenced to death for your unspeakable heinous crimes. Should have waited until somebody has fixed the traffic light.

sdanseo

The only time where it's OK and doesn't pose a risk is pedestrian lights. Especially where you've watched the asshat cross the road on red after pressing the button. Why press it if you don't need the lights to help you cross!

I'd ignore them in that scenario if it didn't carry penalty points, but I value my licence so I don't.

CiniO

Synthol wrote: »

Traffic lights should be turned off like in most countries during the night and a system of primary/secondary road used. It's absolutely ridiculous when you are going somewhere in the middle of the night and sit at the traffic lights for 5 minutes waiting until all the pedestrian lights go off even though there is nobody in sight for miles. You just sit there for ages because you have to obey a light bulb.

But in Ireland, all traffic light junctions don't have separate right of way assignments by traffic signs (major/minor road) so how do you propose driver don't crash on junctions when traffic lights are off at night?

AugustusMinimus

My view is that all signalised roundabouts should revert to flashing amber after a certain hour at night. Absolutely no need for some of them to still have lights active when there is very little traffic.

People also need to get real on broken red lights. If they are broken, people should attempt to proceed is a cautious and safe manner. Anyone who says they will stop until the light is fixed is an idiot of the highest order. This is the kind of person who needs to be spoon fed their entire life.

dil999

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

My view is that all signalised roundabouts should revert to flashing amber after a certain hour at night. Absolutely no need for some of them to still have lights active when there is very little traffic.

People also need to get real on broken red lights. If they are broken, people should attempt to proceed is a cautious and safe manner. Anyone who says they will stop until the light is fixed is an idiot of the highest order. This is the kind of person who needs to be spoon fed their entire life.

This broken red lights argument is a load of nonsense. the only people talking about broken red lights are the muppets trying to justify breaking working red lights. If red lights are broken and stuck on red, then a driver has no option but to safely proceed. Read the whole thread. Its eye opening.

Steve

Last time I looked (and I admit it was a few years ago now) there was nothing in Irish law that says anything about traffic lights.

I got pulled over about 10 years ago for going through a red at 2 in the morning after having to finish off something in work, came to a red, stopped, no other cars around so proceeded through. I knew the junction well and knew the light would take ages to turn.
The Guard was in an unmarked car parked up somewhere, followed me and stopped me, walked up to the window, then said he saw me break a red light... I asked him is there a law against that? he muttered something and then walked away.

No offence to AGS meant in my post.

GM228

Steve wrote: »

Last time I looked (and I admit it was a few years ago now) there was nothing in Irish law that says anything about traffic lights.

Must have been a very long time ago, traffic lights have had an illuminating presence in Irish law since 1956.

bucketybuck

Synthol wrote: »

Traffic lights should be turned off like in most countries during the night and a system of primary/secondary road used.

Yeah, just turn them all of, may as well seeing as we appear to be surrounded by morons who prefer to drive using gut feeling and think that codified rules of the road are just some bother that should be ignored when it suits.

Steve

GM228 wrote: »

Must have been a very long time ago, traffic lights have had an illuminating presence in Irish law since 1956.

Any link to an actual law?

shaunr68

CiniO wrote: »

But in Ireland, all traffic light junctions don't have separate right of way assignments by traffic signs (major/minor road) so how do you propose driver don't crash on junctions when traffic lights are off at night?

Proceed with caution when lights are disabled. I remember navigating a very busy roundabout Marrakesh where all the traffic lights had failed. A chaotic enough place to drive, locals regard traffic lights as advisory at the best of times, and I've seen people driving horses and carts the wrong way around the roundabout, people stopping on the roundabout and hanging out the window to chat to their mates, pedestrians wandering aimlessly across the road, people setting up market stalls on the roundabout...on the actual LANE! Drivers parking on the roundabout and tootling off to do some business...you get the picture.

The thing is with all the lights out people had to take more care than usual and it wasn't a bloodbath like some of the automatons here would have you believe.

mikeecho

How many commentators here, regularly drive between 3 and 5am?

I do, and their is virtually no traffic.
There are plenty of junctions , where if you slow down, or come to a stop, and then proceed through a red light, it is safe.

However there are some junctions, where you just don't do it. These are junctions where you don't have a line of sight.

Breaking a red light, in a quiet area in the early hours is not dangerous if done safely.
Blasting through stop signs and red lights.. that's a different matter.

that's dangerous.

CiniO

shaunr68 wrote: »

Proceed with caution when lights are disabled. I remember navigating a very busy roundabout Marrakesh .....

It sounds strange.
There might be two drivers both proceeding with caution, but still might crash into each other. Whose fault is it then?

Junctions can't be organised like that. There has to be some right of way rules.

Comparing Ireland to Marrakesh is bit nuts... Completely different worlds I believe.

shaunr68

CiniO wrote: »

It sounds strange.
There might be two drivers both proceeding with caution, but still might crash into each other. Whose fault is it then?

Junctions can't be organised like that. There has to be some right of way rules.

Realistically, two drivers proceeding with caution aren't going to just drive into one another. They will slow to a stop if necessary and with a combination of shrugs and waves they will work it out. One will voluntarily give way to the other, same as happens on a narrow country lane here.

CiniO wrote: »

Comparing Ireland to Marrakesh is bit nuts... Completely different worlds I believe.

Just an extreme example of how in the absence of traffic lights the road network doesn't immediately descend into a bloodbath. Drivers will generally take more care and work it out between them.

Come to think of it though this does remind me of Ennis on market day

bucketybuck

shaunr68 wrote: »

Just an extreme example of how in the absence of traffic lights the road network doesn't immediately descend into a bloodbath. Drivers will generally take more care and work it out between them.

Jesus H Christ, are you seriously holding up Morocco as some example of how well things work when drivers just drive as they feel and work things out between themselves?

188 people died on Irish roads in 2016, in Morocco the figure was 3956.

Ireland has 4.1 deaths per 100,000 people. Morocco has 18.

Ireland has 7.6 deaths per 100,000 vehicles, Morocco has 209!!!.

Holding Morocco up as some standard to be followed is ****ing ridiculous, not to mention 3956 people dead could easily be termed as that bloodbath you seem to think doesn't happen.

shaunr68

bucketybuck wrote: »

Jesus H Christ, are you seriously holding up Morocco as some example of how well things work when drivers just drive as they feel and work things out between themselves?

No I wasn't. Please don't get so worked up.

It was a specific example of what happened when the traffic lights failed at a busy roundabout and drivers had to work it out for themselves, the country is irrelevant but was mentioned more by the way of an amusing anecdote.

Synthol

CiniO wrote: »

But in Ireland, all traffic light junctions don't have separate right of way assignments by traffic signs (major/minor road) so how do you propose driver don't crash on junctions when traffic lights are off at night?

Is it really that hard to put up signs? Jesus m8

Synthol

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yeah, just turn them all of, may as well seeing as we appear to be surrounded by morons who prefer to drive using gut feeling and think that codified rules of the road are just some bother that should be ignored when it suits.

Yeah leave that for the smart folks in Germany

Synthol

CiniO wrote: »

It sounds strange.
There might be two drivers both proceeding with caution, but still might crash into each other. Whose fault is it then?

Junctions can't be organised like that. There has to be some right of way rules.

Comparing Ireland to Marrakesh is bit nuts... Completely different worlds I believe.

I honestly believe you should have your licence revoked. Did you read the theory test book when you did your test? Because if you did you would know that cars from the left have the right of way in uncontrolled junctions

AugustusMinimus

CiniO wrote: »

shaunr68 wrote: »

Proceed with caution when lights are disabled. I remember navigating a very busy roundabout Marrakesh .....

It sounds strange.
There might be two drivers both proceeding with caution, but still might crash into each other. Whose fault is it then?

Junctions can't be organised like that. There has to be some right of way rules.

Comparing Ireland to Marrakesh is bit nuts... Completely different worlds I believe.

It’s very simple. The traffic with right of way are given a flashing amber while the sides that have to yield are presented with flashing red.

This isn’t rocket science.

CiniO

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It’s very simple. The traffic with right of way are given a flashing amber while the sides that have to yield are presented with flashing red.

This isn’t rocket science.

Sounds like a good idea allright.
But I don't believe it's prescribed into any Irish law.

Is such system used anywhere else in any other country?

CiniO

Synthol wrote: »

Is it really that hard to put up signs? Jesus m8

No, it's not hard.
But Irish law doesn't allow to put both traffic light and road priority signs like yield or stop.

It works well in countries where law clearly states that in case of existance of both traffic light and road signs, traffic lights (if lit) take precedence over signs.

But there is no such law in Ireland.

CiniO

Synthol wrote: »

I honestly believe you should have your licence revoked.

As far as I know it's a free country, so anyone can believe in anything they wish.

Did you read the theory test book when you did your test? Because if you did you would know that cars from the left have the right of way in uncontrolled junctions

I did read it, and you are incorrect.

In Ireland, on junctions of roads of equal importance, it's a vehicles coming from the right which have right of way.

AugustusMinimus

CiniO wrote: »

Synthol wrote: »

Is it really that hard to put up signs? Jesus m8

No, it's not hard.
But Irish law doesn't allow to put both traffic light and road priority signs like yield or stop.

It works well in countries where law clearly states that in case of existance of both traffic light and road signs, traffic lights (if lit) take precedence over signs.

But there is no such law in Ireland.

I don’t know if this is in Irish law but this is the sequence which traffic lights can be switched to when they break to allow traffic to still flow.

Steve

Like I said earlier, there is nothing in the law that covers traffic lights.

It anyone can correct me on that I'll gladly eat humble pie.

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/RevisedActs/WithAnnotations/HTML/EN_ACT_1961_0024.htm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/html

dil999

Steve wrote: »

Like I said earlier, there is nothing in the law that covers traffic lights.

It anyone can correct me on that I'll gladly eat humble pie.

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/RevisedActs/WithAnnotations/HTML/EN_ACT_1961_0024.htm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/html

Did you seriously think for one second that there was no legislation covering traffic lights? :eek:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

gerryirl

how do you unsubscribe to a thread....boom

RustyNut

Synthol wrote: »

Because if you did you would know that cars from the left have the right of way in uncontrolled junctions

In what country is this?

Steve

dil999 wrote: »

Did you seriously think for one second that there was no legislation covering traffic lights? :eek:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

Actually, yeah, I did. I've been looking for that legislation for years and could never find it..

Surprised it's not included in the LRC revision.

Thanks, it's good to learn stuff. Pie is in the oven..

GM228

Steve wrote: »

Actually, yeah, I did. I've been looking for that legislation for years and could never find it..

Surprised it's not included in the LRC revision.

Thanks, it's good to learn stuff. Pie is in the oven..

As I said traffic lights first entered Irish law in 1956.

It's not included in the consolidated LRC version of the Road Traffic Act 1961 as it is not part of the act.

Dravokivich

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It’s very simple. The traffic with right of way are given a flashing amber while the sides that have to yield are presented with flashing red.

This isn’t rocket science.

Eh... flashing Amber means yield. How are you supposed to perceive it as you've right of way?