The Truth About Dairy

Worztron

Worztron

Worztron

What a messed up industry. How traumatic it must be for the cow to be continually impregnated knowing she will have to endure the painful separation over and over again. :mad:

oxygen

In 50 years we are going to look back on this and wonder how society let it continue to happen. We have moved from moderate farming, to industrialising and automating animal cruelty and suffering.

Absolutely grim grim stuff....

Worztron

oxygen wrote: »

In 50 years we are going to look back on this and wonder how society let it continue to happen. We have moved from moderate farming, to industrialising and automating animal cruelty and suffering.

Absolutely grim grim stuff....

Yes, and the odd thing is that whenever someone finds out that I don't consume dairy - they look at me as if I'd got 2 heads.

Nekarsulm

Worztron wrote: »

What a messed up industry. How traumatic it must be for the cow to be continually impregnated knowing she will have to endure the painful separation over and over again. :mad:

Do you really think that a cow is sentinent to the degree that she
1) Understands the concept of sex leading to pregnancy
2) Understands that pregnancy leads to birth
And 3) Can imagine occurrences in the future which may cause emotions experienced in the past?
All this given that the reproductive cycle in animals is triggered by seasonal and chemical/hormonal activity, and not the concepts of love etc which humans factor in.

ElKavo

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Do you really think that a cow is sentinent to the degree that she
1) Understands the concept of sex leading to pregnancy
2) Understands that pregnancy leads to birth
And 3) Can imagine occurrences in the future which may cause emotions experienced in the past?
All this given that the reproductive cycle in animals is triggered by seasonal and chemical/hormonal activity, and not the concepts of love etc which humans factor in.

Do you really think that
1) Impregnating an animal without its consent is natural?
2) Removing its newly born offspring so you can take its milk is humane?
3) Send its offspring to another country so it can be slaughtered as veal or fattened up and sold for slaughter is humane? and when parent animal is no longer a viable milk producer that you do the same with them?

In answer to your questions
1) I do not believe that cows have the capacity to understand the concept. (still doesn't give humans the right to impregnate without consent)
2) I would imagine that the concept may be foreign to them, however if you don't think that there is a maternal bond between Mother and child there might not be any hope for you.
3) Who is to say, I would again imagine that cows do have memories etc and to outright dismiss the possibility without doing any research into the field is not in any way scientific IMO and merely a method for you to justify your industry.

I read an article a while back that references peer reviewed research that leans toward cows being far more intelligent than you would care to offer them. Probably as it wouldn't suit your business.

Some of the studies referenced are
http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(12)00371-1/pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159103002946
http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(97)76036-3/abstract
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159112001177


Oh and to answer your other post ...

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Amazing forum.
Recipes on how to make fake crackling for your fake ham. (Mustard, brown sugar and layers of rice paper).
Why, if you are vegan at all, would you take ingredients transported halfway around the world, and disguise them to look and taste like something you would never eat in the first place?

The answer is quite simple, Most Vegans are not born Vegan, is is only after they discover the realities of what happens in any given animal industry that they choose to not consume animal products. Or any other host of reasons.

The Pig industry is IMO one of the most disgusting industries of all, that being said I was raised with pork and bacon as a part of my diet. I did like the tastes, but my palate is not near a justifiable reason for the industry and how the animals in it are abused. After all pigs are smart too, plenty of research in that field. But again I suspect you wouldn't even go and look if I posted it.

The original poster you are referring to was asking for a meal that his omni brother could enjoy. People who are newly Vegan can find comfort in the tastes and textures that they have eaten for years. I cant see how that is too hard of a concept for you to grasp.

oxygen

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Do you really think that a cow is sentinent to the degree that she
1) Understands the concept of sex leading to pregnancy
2) Understands that pregnancy leads to birth
And 3) Can imagine occurrences in the future which may cause emotions experienced in the past?
All this given that the reproductive cycle in animals is triggered by seasonal and chemical/hormonal activity, and not the concepts of love etc which humans factor in.

How could any species possibly survive if they were not “sentient to the degree that" they understood all 3 points listed above? All over the animal kingdom we see; females choosing the strongest mate to improve the genetic diversity of her offspring; males providing for pregnant females long after copulation, females teaching her offspring where to gather\hunt to ensure the offspring's survival long after her death

Absolutely cows are aware of above, it’s how the species propagates and evolves in the wild, or more so, would if we let it...

Also I note you called the cow "she" and not "it". That displays an element of empathy for the species as a hole. I believe your counter argument comes from a place of a conflicted ideology why else spend any time posting counter arguments in a Vegan forum, if there were a meat eaters appreciation thread, I know I would spend no time in it, I know I want nothing to do with meat.

Nekarsulm

oxygen wrote: »

How could any species possibly survive if they were not “sentient to the degree that" they understood all 3 points listed above? All over the animal kingdom we see; females choosing the strongest mate to improve the genetic diversity of her offspring; males providing for pregnant females long after copulation, females teaching her offspring where to gather\hunt to ensure the offspring's survival long after her death

I don't believe any species of domesticated farm animal understands the concept of sex as a vital element in the survival of the species. They reproduce simply as a result of hormonal releases causing chemical reactions in the brain.
For example, cows come "on heat" again usually 6 to 9 weeks after giving birth, and in the wild will be served by any available male of the species. This is far removed from the lofty notion that cows are distressed by the thoughts of being impregnated time after time.
In sheep breeds, they come to oestrous when the hours of daylight reduce below a certain level, normally from September onwards. Simply to ensure that the offspring are born in the springtime, thus arriving as the grass growth starts again. Again purely a chemical driven process. In cows, sheep , pigs etc there is no scenario of the male providing for the female after copulation. Swans mate for life, cows don't. Amongst the big cats of the world, where you have a pride of lions, the alpha male somehow can keep count of the time duration from his copulation with a she lion, and if she gives birth earlier or later the male will kill the cubs, as he knows they are noth his.

Absolutely cows are aware of above, it’s how the species propagates and evolves in the wild, or more so, would if we let it...

Also I note you called the cow "she" and not "it". That displays an element of empathy for the species as a hole. I believe your counter argument comes from a place of a conflicted ideology why else spend any time posting counter arguments in a Vegan forum, if there were a meat eaters appreciation thread, I know I would spend no time in it, I know I want nothing to do with meat.

I call a cow "she" because as well as having great empathy for all the animals I keep, what other descriptive noun should I use for a female?
I have a conflicted ideology because as well as being a farmer, I care about animals? That notion beggars belief, and just because I don't subscribe to the "fur baby" zoomorphic tendencies of some people, cannot be taken as evidence of disregard for the welfare of animals I own.

Worztron

White Clover

Worztron wrote: »

I hope you don't believe everything you read!

endacl

Mmmmmm...

Cheese....

davidjtaylor

endacl wrote: »

Mmmmmm...

Cheese....

So.

You’re on a veg*n forum.

How are you enlightening us? What can you contribute that is of value?

Vexorg

It’s a vegan and vegetarian forum, he may be a vegetarian who enjoys cheese.

endacl

Vexorg wrote: »

It’s a vegan and vegetarian forum, he may be a vegetarian who enjoys cheese.

I may indeed be*

Vegans are so touchy sometimes.




* Yeah. I’m not.

prinzeugen

endacl wrote: »

Mmmmmm...

Cheese....

Its not cheese its called Gary.

Tar.Aldarion

endacl wrote: »

I may indeed be*

Vegans are so touchy sometimes.




* Yeah. I’m not.

You are just trolling. If you post like that again it will not be accepted.

davidjtaylor

Vexorg wrote: »

It’s a vegan and vegetarian forum, he may be a vegetarian who enjoys cheese.

On a thread with the title…

Vexorg

Yes on a thread with the title.

gozunda

Vexorg wrote: »

Yes on a thread with the title.

The fact is that some vegans appear to dislike vegetarians as much as omnivores.

_Brian

How about service dogs for the blind ?

What’s the vegan position on that practice?

Is it an acceptable compromise or should vegan activists be ganging up on blind people in the street and releasing the dogs from their servitude ?

Tar.Aldarion

Love the passive aggressiveness. How about you think of what the answer might be and see does it align?

Nekarsulm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Love the passive aggressiveness. How about you think of what the answer might be and see does it align?

If the "seeing eye" dogs are to be freed from their slavery, euthanasia is the obvious outcome... just like is prescribed for farm animals.

emaherx

Worztron wrote: »

You've obviously never seen cows milked. Cows will stand at the gate impatiently around milking time waiting to get in. The also fight among themselves as to which one gets to go first.

Robotic milking wouldn't work if they were tortured.

_Brian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Love the passive aggressiveness. How about you think of what the answer might be and see does it align?

Nice sidestep of the question there

Like all animals if they are being treated well and cared for appropriately I’m happy with their position. .

Tar.Aldarion

I asked what would a vegan think in your mind, not what would you think.

Worztron

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/dairy-farmers-refuse-filmed

Worztron

_Brian wrote: »

How about service dogs for the blind ?

What’s the vegan position on that practice?

Is it an acceptable compromise or should vegan activists be ganging up on blind people in the street and releasing the dogs from their servitude ?

Scroll down to the heading, 'What about guide dogs?': https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/blog/veganism-and-companion-animals

emaherx

Worztron wrote: »

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/dairy-farmers-refuse-filmed

And you have a view on this link?

You expect farmers to welcome cameras from extreme animal activists and expect them show things the way they are and not edit the outcome to suit their own agenda?

emaherx

Worztron wrote: »

Scroll down to the heading, 'What about guide dogs?': https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/blog/veganism-and-companion-animals

In the future, we can hope to see more forms of animal-free help for disabled individuals, including human companions.

Ok..... What now?
Future technology maybe I can understand.
But human companions what does this even mean beyond the help humans already give each other?

_Brian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I asked what would a vegan think in your mind, not what would you think.

In fairness the typical vegan mind is a completely alien construct to me. This I’m trying to see where the boundaries of such an alien landscape would lie.

Unearthly

_Brian wrote: »

In fairness the typical vegan mind is a completely alien construct to me. This I’m trying to see where the boundaries of such an alien landscape would lie.

And here lies the problem. You are so indoctrinated into drinking another animals milk that you can't comprehend other people not doing it.

Objectively looking at it, an Alien would probably side with the vegans logic

davidjtaylor

Unearthly wrote: »

Objectively looking at it, an Alien would probably side with the vegans logic

Or, siding with the logic of this board’s trolls (subjectively looking at it, if you like), an alien would start farming humans.

gozunda

Unearthly wrote: »

And here lies the problem. You are so indoctrinated into drinking another animals milk that you can't comprehend other people not doing it.
Objectively looking at it, an Alien would probably side with the vegans logic

And therin lies the problem. It could be said that you are so indoctrinated against consuming dairy products you can't comprehend other people doing it.

Nice of you to co-opt all potential intergalactic populations into your belief system without consulting them first!. Btw Aliens are highly unlikely to 'side with vegans' lol
See:
https://aeon.co/essays/if-aliens-treated-us-like-vegans-treat-animals-we-d-be-toast

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

And here lies the problem. You are so indoctrinated into drinking another animals milk that you can't comprehend other people not doing it.

Objectively looking at it, an Alien would probably side with the vegans logic

I don’t like milk, haven’t drank it in maybe 35years.

I’m very happy for people to have opinions and lifestyles. The alien thing to me is shoving your beliefs down the throats of others, making a general nuisance of themselves.

This my question, blind people don’t need guide dogs, plenty get on without them. So why don’t vegans abuse the blind folk who do ??
Why single out butchers for example as happened recently ??

Unearthly

gozunda wrote: »

And therin lies the problem. You are so indoctrinated against consuming dairy products you can't comprehend othet people doing it.

Nice of you to co-opt all potential intergalactic populations into your belief system without consulting them first!. Btw Aliens are highly unlikely to 'side with vegans' lol
See:
https://aeon.co/essays/if-aliens-treated-us-like-vegans-treat-animals-we-d-be-toast

Pretty much everyone in my life bar 2 people consume dairy and I don't have an intolerance to them

I'm more than happy to explain my reasons when prompted

What I do have a problem with is money vested interests farmers (thankfully I don't know farmers in outside world) coming into a vegan and vegetarian forum and calling our dietary preferences alien.

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

Pretty much everyone in my life bar 2 people consume dairy and I don't have an intolerance to them

I'm more than happy to explain my reasons when prompted

What I do have a problem with is money vested interests farmers (thankfully I don't know farmers in outside world) coming into a vegan and vegetarian forum and calling our dietary preferences alien.

I said I find the construct alien to me, not that your preferences were alien.
This is a good enough example of twisting what is said to suit your addenda rather than answering the topic as the questions are perhaps getting a bit too close to the bone.

Perhaps I could switch questioning

Pesticides eliminate a huge number of insects and rodents to protect crops that go to fill tie vegan shopping baskets, how is this reconciled within the community ??

Even in organic farming nematodes are employed to consume copious numbers of slugs and snails. The nematodes are anform or naturally occurring worm, they are farmed, dried and then on organic farms rehydrates amd spread on the ground to consume invertebrates to protect crops. Would this farming and use of farmed animals mean that organic farmed fruits and vegetables are avoided as part of a vegan diet ?

Unearthly

_Brian wrote: »

I said I find the construct alien to me, not that your preferences were alien.
This is a good anoughnexample of twisting what is said to suit your addenda rather than answering the topic as the questions are perhaps getting a bit too close to the bone.

Perhaps I could switch questioning

Pesticides eliminate a huge number of insects and rodents to protect crops that go to fill tie vegan shopping baskets, how is this reconciled within the community ??

Even in organic farming nematodes are employed to consume copious numbers of slugs and snails. The nematodes are anform or naturally occurring worm, they are farmed, dried and then on organic farms rehydrates amd spread on the ground to consume invertebrates to protect crops. Would this farming and use of farmed animals mean that organic farmed fruits and vegetables are avoided as part of a vegan diet ?

Well for me I am not saying every thing is perfect. I do the best I can.

Could I have been a vegan hundreds of years ago and lived a healthy nutritional life? No. In future if technology advances and I can live a life that reduces any life at all being affected, then I'm on board. The intention is not there from me to kill any insects or rodents.

Anyway the biggest mistake people make about vegans is lumping us all in together. A vegan attacks old people at supermarket, I'm asked to justify this.

My reasons for going vegan are personal and are most likely very different to the next

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

Well for me I am not saying every thing is perfect. I do the best I can.

Could I have been a vegan hundreds of years ago and lived a healthy nutritional life? No. In future if technology advances and I can live a life that reduces any life at all being affected, then I'm on board. The intention is not there from me to kill any insects or rodents.

Anyway the biggest mistake people make about vegans is lumping us all in together. A vegan attacks old people at supermarket, I'm asked to justify this.

My reasons for going vegan are personal and are most likely very different to the next

Indeed.
To me the biggest mistake people make is implying all farmers have no interest in the health and welfare of their animals and abuse them at every opportunity, but hey, it’s all a matter of perspective.

_Brian

I would still love a Vegans perspective on these questions.


Pesticides eliminate a huge number of insects and rodents to protect crops that go to fill tie vegan shopping baskets, how is this reconciled within the community ??

Even in organic farming nematodes are employed to consume copious numbers of slugs and snails. The nematodes are anform or naturally occurring worm, they are farmed, dried and then on organic farms rehydrates amd spread on the ground to consume invertebrates to protect crops. Would this farming and use of farmed animals mean that organic farmed fruits and vegetables are avoided as part of a vegan diet ?

gozunda

Unearthly wrote: »

Pretty much everyone in my life bar 2 people consume dairy and I don't have an intolerance to them
I'm more than happy to explain my reasons when prompted. What I do have a problem with is money vested interests farmers (thankfully I don't know farmers in outside world) coming into a vegan and vegetarian forum and calling our dietary preferences alien.

I've always wondered why so much of the V&V forum is devoted to attacking all types of farming - see the subject of this thread for example. The same farming which produces food and is an important part of The Irish economy. Imo it would be akin to group of people attacking rice farmers because they decide not to eat rice or banana plantations being denigrated because I don't like bananas or goat herders being maligned because a group of locals don't like eating goat.

Where such attacks are prevalent do not be surprised that farmers and others are going to hold such attacks up to scrutiny. I have no problem with what any one eats - I do have a problem with some referring to people choosing to drink milk as 'indoctrinated' ...

Unearthly

_Brian wrote: »

Indeed.
To me the biggest mistake people make is implying all farmers have no interest in the health and welfare of their animals and abuse them at every opportunity, but hey, it’s all a matter of perspective.

I remember someone in after hours said they and their family raised pigs from birth to the end. Treated them well, raised them as pets essentially, then when the slaughtered happened, they sat around the table and discussed with each other which pig they were eating (They had them named)

That to me is an Alien construct but sure look it is what it is

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

I remember someone in after hours said they and their family raised pigs from birth to the end. Treated them well, raised them as pets essentially, then when the slaughtered happened, they sat around the table and discussed with each other which pig they were eating (They had them named)

That to me is an Alien construct but sure look it is what it is

Yea that was me, so your searching my history to somehow discredit my opinions ?

You see I’ll amswer any question about that process that anyone has, I’m proud we rear our own food and know 100% it’s origin amd the life it lived, I’m not cowering away from it being a living animal that was killed for my food supply. I’ve no problem with the process.
Food isn’t something from a shop shelf, we need to know it’s lifecycle, to reconcile that with our opinions and our own lifestyle.


Yet, I see no answer about the questions inraised about all the sentient creatures killed in horrific ways to fill vegan shopping baskets. The same vegans who look down on me for rearing pigs and having them killed in govt approved facilities to the highest standards.

Can you see the double standard being applied here ?? Anyone ??

Unearthly

Fairly sure it wasn't you Brian. Let me go check.

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

Fairly sure it wasn't you Brian. Let me go check.

I’m fairly sure it was.

I’d rather an answer on the double standards problem.

Unearthly

_Brian wrote: »

I’m fairly sure it was.

I’d rather an answer on the double standards problem.

Nope.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109126253&postcount=347

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

Nope.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109126253&postcount=347

Kindred spirit so. We do the exact same thing.

Anyhow.

Back to this double standard issue ??

Unearthly

_Brian wrote: »

Kindred spirit so. We do the exact same thing.

Anyhow.

Back to this double standard issue ??

I've already addressed this issue. It's not my intention to do so. If technology advances and eliminates all these issues then I'm on board. Same way modern life allows us to live our lives without having to kill pigs and cows

If I were intentionally killing insects, naming them, raising them, and eating them then that would be me being a hypocrite

_Brian

Unearthly wrote: »

I've already addressed this issue. It's not my intention to do so. If technology advances and eliminates all these issues then I'm on board

If I were intentionally killing insects, naming them, raising them, and eating them then that would be me being a hypocrite

But someone is intentionally killing insects and invertebrates on your behalf. Your buying goods from them and by doing so justifying their actions and indeed paying them to do so.

Is it ok if I don’t name the heifer that we have identified for the freezer ?, she has a number but that’s a government thing, she spends her time with the rest of the herd so not a pet.

_Brian

I estimate we will get meat for seven people from the humane killing of one heifer.

My guess is that for a vegans fruit and veg thousands or perhaps hundreds of thousands of insects and invertebrates will have been killed off.

Maybe I missed something, is there a limit or some measurements below which it’s ok to farm animals and kill them for your food production ?

Unearthly

_Brian wrote: »

But someone is intentionally killing insects and invertebrates on your behalf. Your buying goods from them and by doing so justifying their actions and indeed paying them to do so.

Is it ok if I don’t name the heifer that we have identified for the freezer ?, she has a number but that’s a government thing, she spends her time with the rest of the herd so not a pet.

As I said I'm doing the best I can. Nothing is perfect. You are able to raise an animal from birth with the intention to kill them later. It's not something I could do but sure look we are all different