Harvey Weinstein scandal (Mod warning in op.)

retro:electro

Hamlet. wrote: »

It clearly wasn't attempted rape. Read his statement and stop inventing things.

No crime was committed.

Who knows what would have happened if the kid never managed to escape. All I know is in the world I Iive in, lying on top of a 14 year old child with an intent to take things further is not at all appropriate. It says a lot about the character of Spacey, wouldn't you say?

Wibbs

anna080 wrote: »

All I know is in the world I Iive in, lying on top of a 14 year old child with an intent to take things further is not at all appropriate.

The fact it even needs to be said A is bloody worrying.

Hamlet.

anna080 wrote: »

Who knows what would have happened if the kid never managed to escape. All I know is in the world I Iive in, lying on top of a 14 year old child with an intent to take things further is not at all appropriate. It says a lot about the character of Spacey, wouldn't you say?

There's no proof the incident happened and no suggestion that there was action to take things further from the statement I read.

Hamlet.

Hamlet. wrote: »

There's no proof the incident happened and no suggestion that there was action to take things further from the statement I read.

So he didn't rape him but only climbed on top of a child and frightened him so much that decades later he dreaded being in the same building as him? Most people don't clamber on top of someone in bed unless they're planning on bumping uglies.

Annasopra

Hamlet. wrote: »

There's no proof the incident happened and no suggestion that there was action to take things further from the statement I read.

There is no proof it didnt happen. Spacey didnt even deny it.

Hamlet.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There is no proof it didnt happen. Spacey didnt even deny it.

That's irrelevant. He didn't say it did happen either. And if it did once again I remind you that it wasn't a criminal offence.

I think some on here would be very well suited to living in Saudi Arabia.

eviltwin

Hamlet. wrote: »

That's irrelevant. He didn't say it did happen either. And if it did once again I remind you that it wasn't a criminal offence.

I think some on here would be very well suited to living in Saudi Arabia.

Enough has come out about Spacey in the past few days to show he was acting inappropriately for years.

Granted, I'd like to have a bit more clarity before slapping him with a paedo label but that's just me.

Annasopra

Hamlet. wrote: »

That's irrelevant. He didn't say it did happen either. And if it did once again I remind you that it wasn't a criminal offence.

I think some on here would be very well suited to living in Saudi Arabia.

You have zero evidence it didnt happen. You are making stuff up at this stage.

Hamlet.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You have zero evidence it didnt happen. You are making stuff up at this stage.

LOL. You're the one holding an argument which requires evidence.

retro:electro

Hamlet. wrote: »

LOL. You're the one holding an argument which requires evidence.

So he's seeking treatment for what then? Addiction to the ps4? He's a creep and he knows it. There'll be a lot more to come about his inappropriate actions.

Hammer89

anna080 wrote: »

Who knows what would have happened if the kid never managed to escape.

Is there anything to suggest that Spacey would've raped him, or tried to rape him, had he refused? I don't think so. It's important to stick to the facts and the facts - according to Anthony Rapp - are that Spacey tried it on with a conscious 14-year-old, failed, asked him to reconsider and then left it at that.

pitifulgod

Hammer89 wrote: »

Is there anything to suggest that Spacey would've raped him, or tried to rape him, had he refused? I don't think so. It's important to stick to the facts and the facts - according to Anthony Rapp - are that Spacey tried it on with a conscious 14-year-old, failed, asked him to reconsider and then left it at that.

Attempting to have sex with a person who is fourteen is by definition attempted rape. He was under the age of consent.

Hammer89

pitifulgod wrote: »

Attempting to have sex with a person who is fourteen is by definition attempted rape. He was under the age of consent.

Anna was intimating that a forced sexual act could have happened had he not "escaped", which isn't a good word to use.

Annasopra

Hammer89 wrote: »

Is there anything to suggest that Spacey would've raped him, or tried to rape him, had he refused? I don't think so. It's important to stick to the facts and the facts - according to Anthony Rapp - are that Spacey tried it on with a conscious 14-year-old, failed, asked him to reconsider and then left it at that.

I thought you read the allegations. You dont seem to have.

My memory was that I thought, Oh, everybody's gone. Well, yeah, I should probably go home,” Rapp said. Spacey, he recalled, “sort of stood in the doorway, kind of swaying. My impression when he came in the room was that he was drunk.” Rapp doesn't remember Spacey saying anything to him. Instead, Rapp said, “He picked me up like a groom picks up the bride over the threshold. But I don't, like, squirm away initially, because I'm like, 'What's going on?' And then he lays down on top of me.”

“He was trying to seduce me,” Rapp said. “I don't know if I would have used that language. But I was aware that he was trying to get with me sexually.”

Rapp recalled this all happening — Spacey appearing at the door, coming into the room, picking him up, and putting him on the bed — in one clumsy action, with Spacey landing at a slight angle on top of him. He said Spacey “was, like, pressing into me,” and that he remembers Spacey “tightening his arms.” But while he can't recall exactly how long Spacey remained on top of him, Rapp said he was able to “squirm” away after a short period.]

Annasopra

Hammer89 wrote: »

Anna was intimating that a forced sexual act could have happened had he not "escaped", which isn't a good word to use.

With a 14 year old? SInce when can a 14 year old give consent?

Hamlet.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I thought you read the allegations. You dont seem to have.

As I've said before, no crime was committed. It's plain and simple.

retro:electro

Hammer89 wrote: »

Anna was intimating that a forced sexual act could have happened had he not "escaped", which isn't a good word to use.

Eh what? I said "who knows what would have happened". I don't know? Do you know? Forced or not it's still wrong and it still constitutes rape. The fact you don't even seem to know this is the worrying part.

pitifulgod

Hamlet. wrote: »

As I've said before, no crime was committed. It's plain and simple.

Attempting to rape a fourteen year old is a crime. How do you keep missing this fact?

Hammer89

anna080 wrote: »

Eh what? I said "who knows what would have happened". I don't know? Do you know? Forced or not it's still wrong and it still constitutes rape. The fact you don't even seem to know this is the worrying part.

Why even say it if you don't know what would have happened? Because you and Joey are exaggerating the incident from what I can tell. Let's not pretend you weren't suggesting that Kevin Spacey could've raped him, in the sense of a forced sexual act, had he not "escaped".

Hammer89

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I thought you read the allegations. You dont seem to have.

I did, and you seem to have cherry picked your quotes, conveniently omitting the part where Rapp alleges that Spacey said, 'Are you sure you wanna go?'

edalton471

@Hamlet

I think you need to Google what the statute of limitations is. That's the reason why he didnt go to the police, it was too late to press charges. It's also the reason that Spacey is brazen enough to come out in public and say "Jeez, maybe it did happen." He knows damn well there's nothing that can be done about it.

It's also the reason Feldman won't name his abusers, he said as much in an interview before. Naming names opens him up to defamation lawsuits whereas the actual criminals can't be prosecuted as it's too late.

Just because Rapp didn;t go to the police doesn't make what Spacey allegedly did any less perverted

Hammer89

Hammer89 wrote: »

I did, and you seem to have cherry picked your quotes, conveniently omitting the part where Rapp alleges that Spacey said, 'Are you sure you wanna go?'

Not really appropriate to be asking that question of a 14 year old though, is it?

Even if physical force isn't used, it would be rape since he can't legally consent. Spacey would know this, and apparently Rapp looked his age, no older.

Hamlet.

pitifulgod wrote: »

Attempting to rape a fourteen year old is a crime. How do you keep missing this fact?

There's no attempt. If there was an attempt he would have strolled out the door unscathed would be?

retro:electro

Hammer89 wrote: »

Why even say it if you don't know what would have happened? Because you and Joey are exaggerating the incident from what I can tell. Let's not pretend you weren't suggesting that Kevin Spacey could've raped him, in the sense of a forced sexual act, had he not "escaped".

So in your world putting 14 year olds to bed and lying on top of them is all fine and dandy. Riiiiiiight...

Outlaw Pete

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

With a 14 year old? SInce when can a 14 year old give consent?

There are many countries in which a 14-year-old can legally consent to sex.

Some of them have age and positions of authority exemptions but far from all.

Not too long ago it was even as low as 13 in Spain.

retro:electro

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There are many countries in which a 14-year-old can legally consent to sex.

Some of them have age and positions of authority exemptions but far from all.

In the US it's illegal, and that's all that is relevant here.

pitifulgod

Hamlet. wrote: »

There's no attempt. If there was an attempt he would have strolled out the door unscathed would be?

A fourteen year old cannot consent to sex so propositioning one is an attempted rape. Statute of limits has expired but very much so a crime. The events also clearly scarred him somewhat which you seem happy to gloss over.

Hamlet.

pitifulgod wrote: »

A fourteen year old cannot consent to sex so propositioning one is an attempted rape. Statute of limits has expired but very much so a crime.

Even from the 14 year olds statement he fails to mention any concrete proposition. So why do people keep assuming there was one?

Outlaw Pete

anna080 wrote: »

In the US it's illegal, and that's all that is relevant here.

He asked: "Since when can a 14 year old give consent?" suggesting it was unheard of, just pointing out that's not the case.

Also, there are many states in the US where the age of consent is 14 (with close-in-age exemptions).

Doubt it would affect this case though given that Spacey was in his mid 20's at the time and exemptions tend to only run to between 4-8 years.

Hammer89

anna080 wrote: »

So in your world putting 14 year olds to bed and lying on top of them is all fine and dandy. Riiiiiiight...

This is the same type of exaggeration you've used with Kevin Spacey.

Kevin Spacey is clearly an absolute scumbag but if you want to make him into more of a monster than he already is then you must use more than the question 'Who knows what would've happened?' as your evidence.

retro:electro

Hammer89 wrote: »

This is the same type of exaggeration you've used with Kevin Spacey.

Kevin Spacey is clearly an absolute scumbag but if you want to make him into more of a monster than he already is then you must use more than the question 'Who knows what would've happened?' as your evidence.

I am using more than that. I'm using the fact that Rapp has said Spacey came into his room when he was watching tv and tried to "seduce him and get with him sexually"- he then picked him up like a groom would a bride and "placed him on the bed and pressed himself into me sexually"...
Rapp also said he was staunchly discouraged by his lawyers go forward with this.
What are you using as your basis that it didn't happen?

eviltwin

anna080 wrote: »

I am using more than that. I'm using the fact that Rapp has said Spacey came into his room when he was watching tv and tried to "seduce him and get with him sexually"- he then picked him up like a groom would a bride and "placed him on the bed and pressed himself into me sexually"...
Rapp also said he was staunchly discouraged by his lawyers to take this forward.
What are you using as your basis that it didn't happen?

Spacey went into his own bedroom, not the boys

retro:electro

eviltwin wrote: »

Spacey went into his own bedroom, not the boys

Yes you're right what was I thinking. That's the issue worth being pedantic about!
:rolleyes:

tomwaterford

eviltwin wrote: »

Spacey went into his own bedroom, not the boys

I don't think the location is the issue?

eviltwin

tomwaterford wrote: »

I don't think the location is the issue?

I think it's very relevant. Spacey didn't go to the room of a child looking for sex, he went into his own room at a party and found a young guy in there and made an assumption. There is no indication he knew the guy was underage. At a party, an adult situation, drunk, it could be a mistake. He tried it on and stopped when asked. I really don't see the issue here, it's not like he was hanging around a school looking for kids to shag.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

eviltwin wrote: »

I think it's very relevant. Spacey didn't go to the room of a child looking for sex, he went into his own room at a party and found a young guy in there and made an assumption. There is no indication he knew the guy was underage. At a party, an adult situation, drunk, it could be a mistake. He tried it on and stopped when asked. I really don't see the issue here, it's not like he was hanging around a school looking for kids to shag.

He was in a play with the child, he must have known his age. Took him out with friends a couple of nights before the party, which he invited him to. Rapp arrived at the party to find out to his surprise that he was the only kid there.

It wasn't an innocent little woopsie doopsie I'm on top of a teenager, oh well, my mistake.

eviltwin

Sabrina Future Burger wrote: »

He was in a play with the child, he must have known his age. Took him out with friends a couple of nights before the party, which he invited him to. Rapp arrived at the party to find out to his surprise that he was the only kid there.

It wasn't an innocent little woopsie doopsie I'm on top of a teenager, oh well, my mistake.

They were not in the same play at that time, they were working on two different productions. I haven't seen the bit that they had been out together prior to this. That puts a different slant on it.

Hammer89

anna080 wrote: »

What are you using as your basis that it didn't happen?

When did I say it didn't happen? What I'm saying is you need a lot more to go on when you suggest something more sinister would've occurred had not Rapp not "escaped". Your use of that word speaks volumes I think, because to me it suggests that your vision of the incident is a lot more threatening than Rapp claims it was. He didn't throw a chair through the window and rappel down the building using a rope made of Kevin Spacey's ties. He made a conscious choice to leave the room and he was allowed to do so.

retro:electro

Hammer89 wrote: »

When did I say it didn't happen? What I'm saying is you need a lot more to go on when you suggest something more sinister would've occurred had not Rapp not "escaped". Your use of that word speaks volumes I think, because to me it suggests that your vision of the incident is a lot more threatening than Rapp claims it was. He didn't throw a chair through the window and rappel down the building using a rope made of Kevin Spacey's ties. He made a conscious choice to leave the room and he was allowed to do so.

I think it's clear we'll never be on the same page so I'm kind of done here.

Outlaw Pete

Be interesting to know when, exactly, the party took place as Rapp turned 15 in '86.

Trivia: Rapp was the geek infatuated with Elizabeth Shue in the film 'Adventures in Babysitting' which was filmed in '86 (came out in '87).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCh_XoFObz4

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

eviltwin wrote: »

They were not in the same play at that time, they were working on two different productions. I haven't seen the bit that they had been out together prior to this. That puts a different slant on it.

My mistake.

But seriously,this is Anthony Rapp in 1986.

Even if

a) Spacey didn't know him already - he'd brought Rapp and a 17 year old to a night club a few nights previously where

b) he specifically invited Rapp to the party

even if those two things weren't true and Spacey did just find some random guy in his room, you're out of your mind if you think anyone could innocently mistake that kid for an adult.

Besides which, picking someone up, throwing them on the bed and climbing on top of them is not an acceptable way to make a "sexual advance" on someone of any age. No he didn't stop him leaving, but Rapp says he had to push him off, overcoming his instinctive response to freeze.

And it's all very consistent with what's alleged about Spacey's behaviour towards young men over the next 30 years.

RabbleRouser2k

iguana wrote: »

I guess there will always be parents willing to exploit their children. My son, like most kids his age, loves watching youtube videos of children playing video games or opening toys. Which seems relatively harmless but the most popular of these channels are produced by parents who are film professionals and produce an output of videos that mean their children have to be working for hours and hours each day. Their home and family lives, their play, their enjoyment of toys, holidays, trips to playgrounds and restaurants are all turned into a commodity and sold for profit. Instead of just being able to chill out after school or instead of getting to spend time in learning if they are homeschooled, they have to work really hard because producing a 15 minute video requires hours of repetitious work. The parts of their lives that should just be about pleasure are turned into a boring drudge. Even their birthday and Christmas mornings are filmed and rigorously worked at so they look perfect.

I know that pales in comparison to the abuse so many children are alleged to have undergone from the likes of Dan Schneider. But it still goes to show that there is a type of parent who will commodify their children for money and notoriety.

You heard about the 'daddyoffive' channel, right? The abuse they put their kids through was absolutely horrific. Encouraging them to hit one another-then targeted abuse of one of their children, physical violence and mental torture. All for those youtube dollars.

The first I ever heard of that channel was when the scandal broke. So glad I never watched it.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Now I do know there are child actors who willingly chose to enter the profession - like Jodie Foster and Elijah Wood - but look at how many get deeply f*cked up, become drug addicts and die at a tragically early age. Look at Judy Garland. MGM property at a tender age and drugged up to her eyeballs on the set of Oz. She never really recovered. The sad thing is that her daughter Liza Minelli has sort of gone down the same road.

Look at Drew Barrymore. Starred in ET aged 7, was drinking alcohol by age 10 and on cocaine by 12. Where were her parents?? At least she is a survivor. Poor Corey Haim and many other child actors weren't so fortunate.

Garland was also forced to undergo an abortion, by her then husband and the film studio she was under contract with. She was 18/19 at the time, and the studio didn't want her 'image' to be corrupted. That did further damage.

Barrymore had an awful home environment-she didn't speak to her dad, I think saying a few words to him before he died,because he was an abusive jerk. Physically beat her mom, while pregnant with Drew, so she would miscarry. Didn't work, obviously. He was pretty messed up as a person as well. Spielberg was her godfather, and he actually looked out for her. She was off the rails well into her teen years, and I think he took action when he saw her family weren't gonna do squat. Staged an intervention, etc.

Hamlet.

Hammer89 wrote: »

When did I say it didn't happen? What I'm saying is you need a lot more to go on when you suggest something more sinister would've occurred had not Rapp not "escaped". Your use of that word speaks volumes I think, because to me it suggests that your vision of the incident is a lot more threatening than Rapp claims it was. He didn't throw a chair through the window and rappel down the building using a rope made of Kevin Spacey's ties. He made a conscious choice to leave the room and he was allowed to do so.

This is very key.

If the incident did indeed ever happen.

RabbleRouser2k

Earthhorse wrote: »

We obviously read different accounts and that's awful if true. But my overall point is he's not a groper or sexual harasser even if he's a huge disappointment.



He obviously has a penchant for casting stunning women in main roles and but parts (being reluctant to cast the actress who played Tara for instance). I don't know why these women would be worried about being fired for getting pregnant if they are only in bit parts?!?

We saw how easily a producer can kill a still young career. Google Clint Eastwood for example, he killed Sondra Locke's career once their relationship ended-no rape involved there, just awfulness.

You're trying very hard to paint him in the worst possible light. His criticism of others work, such as JW, a criticism many people agree with, is just that, and doesn't mean he himself is free from being criticised. And his flaws don't prevent the huge body of work he's produced having lots of strong writing for women.

Unsolicited critique-critique he himself cannot take. And the JW criticism was ridiculous-he made it in response to women fawning over Chris Pratt, and he then cried misogyny because the heroine was wearing heels. Never mind the Age of Ulton poster has a bizarre 'look at Scarlett Johansson's butt and boobs' pose. And a 'she's dating Hulk' romance arc that comes out of nowhere.
The strong writing for women...is questionable. There's a very good reason Firefly didn't continue for a second season...many of his plots focused on rape. Which he often puts into his stories, tbh.
http://legendsrevealed.com/entertainment/2016/08/24/did-joss-whedon-nearly-have-a-bleak-rape-plot-on-firefly/

To put that alongside guys who barge into women's hotel rooms, forcibly rape them, or pursue minors aggressively is a bit much.

It's more harassment-I wouldn't place him alongside Weinstein and co, more so along side Trump and company.

A fantasy, possibly, but then again he did make fun of kids with cancer. Even when the article he was mocking had the 'Paul Ryan meets teen survivors of cancer' title. So it's not beneath him. (That references the fantasy thing-I had to edit that for brevity, and lost the original post. Not referencing Weinstein and co).

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/27/joss-whedon-tweet-demeans-cancer-survivors-hit-rep/

strandroad

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

The strong writing for women...is questionable. There's a very good reason Firefly didn't continue for a second season...many of his plots focused on rape. Which he often puts into his stories, tbh.
http://legendsrevealed.com/entertainment/2016/08/24/did-joss-whedon-nearly-have-a-bleak-rape-plot-on-firefly/

Ugh I remember when they revealed it, horrific. Inara is also constantly slut shamed by Mal, and all the women apart from Zoe maybe are cast really young. Inara is supposed to be this famous experienced master courtisan, training and coaching others, and he cast Baccarin who was 22 at the time. Yeah "Firefly" has not aged well.

Not to mention "Dollhouse", such a creep fest of a concept.

Nowhere near Weinstein of course, to be clear.

Ash.J.Williams

So could this #irishwiendstein thing backfire?did he do anything other call a woman fat and ask for a massage?

Outlaw Pete

HandsomeBob wrote: »

Hard to argue with Baldwin there. He'll get a lot of abuse though I imagine.

Yup, and now he's posted saying he's taken a break from posting there as a result.

https://twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/926854522886115330
https://twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/926854850196975616
https://twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/926855125511163906
https://twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/926856382883745792
https://twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/926857239826182151

RabbleRouser2k

strandroad wrote: »

Ugh I remember when they revealed it, horrific. Inara is also constantly slut shamed by Mal, and all the women apart from Zoe maybe are cast really young. Inara is supposed to be this famous experienced master courtisan, training and coaching others, and he cast Baccarin who was 22 at the time. Yeah "Firefly" has not aged well.

Not to mention "Dollhouse", such a creep fest of a concept.

Nowhere near Weinstein of course, to be clear.

Yeah, his plans were...just disgusting, at best-the whole idea of her 'gaining respect' for being raped ...:(:(:( And apparently that was the story idea he sold so many of the writers on. He also had a rape storyline in Buffy-an attempted rape that is.

I was never a fan of Firefly-it wasn't a show I watched, and I'd gone off of his shows due to Buffy nosediving so quickly after my initial liking of it.

Dollhouse is like a creepier version of Joe 90. It got an absolute bashing from his 'fans' when it premiered. Fox saw something in it that wasn't there, and tried to push it for a second series-but the ratings got even worse. (They cancelled a show or two to pay for it-it was a waste).

I was amazed how Orphan Black managed to do everything right that Dollhouse did so, so wrong. Seemed like Dollhouse was written by an adolescent, not a grown man. (I also tend to think Whedon cast Dushku because he had a thing for her, rather than her actually having any talent-even brought in his own staple cast to try to keep the show going. Dushku faded out of view after Dollhouse died).

Yeah-he's no Weinstein-but pretending to act pious while pulling the crap he pulled...that's a real stinker.

strandroad

Whedon had multiple female characters in shows when it wasn't a standard, I give him credit here. But their portrayal was often creepy, and looking back we can wonder if he cast so many to build adoring harems and dating pools. He certainly had a type and an age bracket.

RabbleRouser2k

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Yup, and now he's posted saying he's taken a break from posting there as a result.

His second account, the ABECFoundation (I think that's the one) has blocked Asia Argento on twitter-that says quite a lot. About him.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5050493/Uma-Thurman-opens-sexual-assault-Hollywood.html

A very cryptic message from Uma-seems like she may very well have suffered at the hands of Harvey. She's getting support, and called on to speak out.