A world without America?

Gbear

philstar wrote: »

no rock n'roll

Probably not, but that traces it's roots back to slave music.

It's hard to argue that getting rock n'roll was worth having the Atlantic slave trade.

Capt'n Midnight

MadYaker wrote: »

Most forms of technology that we use today came from there. Cars, planes, the internet, mobile phones, light bulbs etc. Their space program has thought us pretty much everything we know about our universe. Most leading researchers in science and tech are american.

Light bulbs ?
Joseph Swan patented his version on the same day as Edison.
Lots of inventions attributed to Edison aren't his. Also Antonio Meucci invented the telephone not Bell.

Cars are not a US invention.

US space program ? - most of the stuff people say was invented by it wasn't. Like velcro and computers.

First Satellite ?
First to send back pictures of the far side of the moon ?
First Man in space ?
First to land on Venus and take photos, and measure the electrical properties of the lens cap twice :o
Throw enough money at a problem that's been solved by others and you'll get results. 4% of gDP for a decade.

Remind us again how US astronauts get to space these days - here's a clue it's in a 1960's capsule on top of a 1950's ICBM


Yes the first flight was by the Wright brothers but by WWI the US was buying European fighters.

During WWII the US spent a lot of money getting the B-29 capable of dropping the bomb. In the end they just used the release mechanism that was already in use on the Lancaster, which was well capable of carrying larger bombs already.

the_syco

eeguy wrote: »

Don't understand this "We'd all be speaking German". Sure the Germans were defeated and they don't all speak English or Russian

The Nazi's had a Germanisation policy.

=-=

Without the USA, WW1 would still have happened regardless, and the Treaty of Versailles that lead to WW2 would still have been put in place, but without the funding from the US banks, WW2 may not have happened as soon as did. Hitler would still have gained power, and no doubt would have invaded Poland, but after that; Nazi Germany may have tried to get capital to progress with Hitlers plans. Instead of an all out war, it could have started slower, with the "push" happening later. Hitlers "Final Solution" would be probably have been overlooked, in the same way policies in Russia were ignored.

Without WW2, Russia may not have as big a military as after WW2, but would probably still have a decent sized army. Would Germany still have been trying to make a nuke? And if they succeeded, would they sue for no repatriations, or just have hit England?

Permabear

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fly_agaric

The critters that come out of the word-work spouting bile about the US are gas. Young (I assume) Irish people living well compared to their parents and grandparents in a state that owes alot of its current wealth to pandering to the companies from the Evil Empire that should "disappear" (in a mafia sort of way). Hard to wrap your noodle around but maybe its a phase and something one grows out of. :pac:

Sephiroth_dude

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Ya fair enough we would obviously be missing out on some great forms of entertainment over the years (Tv films sport etc) but how does everyone think the human race and society as a whole would do without them?

Europe would be still under Nazi rule if it weren't for them.

JupiterKid

50 years ago, the USA was the country the rest of the Western (and much of the non-western) world aspired to and looked up to. A bastion of democracy, free speech, individual liberty, the ability to get ahead in life and an infrastructure that was the envy of the world. Granted, it had its many problems with race and social inequality but the positives seemed to greatly outweigh the negatives. Hell, they put humans on the moon nigh on 50 years ago.

When I was a young child growing up in miserable 1980s Ireland, I dreamed of living in America.

But how the mighty have fallen. Trump as President is just a symptom how how far the USA has fallen in the world. It is a country very much in decline in every way I can think of. It has lost its way and is more unpopular than ever. I actually think the rot started a long time ago - around the time of Vietnam and Watergate. But in the last 15-20 years the country has seemed to go into free fall.

The question is: is the decline terminal and unstoppable?

Permabear

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the_syco

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

Europe would be still under Nazi rule if it weren't for them.

As someone said earlier; Nazi Germany got loans from US banks, and US companies were supplying them with materials at the start of the war, so they may never have had such a start if the US didn't supply them with credit.

fly_agaric

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes. I do think the US has alot of problems. As said above, Trump's run for president and election to that office are a symptom of the decay, but I hope things improve, not that they continue to get worse and that the US and its strong influence in the world (somehow) disappears. Ireland definitely won't be the better for it IMO if that happens.

Permabear

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Permabear

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donegaLroad

JupiterKid wrote: »

50 years ago, the USA was the country the rest of the Western (and much of the non-western) world aspired to and looked up to. A bastion of democracy, free speech, individual liberty, the ability to get ahead in life and an infrastructure that was the envy of the world. Granted, it had its many problems with race and social inequality but the positives seemed to greatly outweigh the negatives. Hell, they put humans on the moon nigh on 50 years ago.

When I was a young child growing up in miserable 1980s Ireland, I dreamed of living in America.

But how the mighty have fallen. Trump as President is just a symptom how how far the USA has fallen in the world. It is a country very much in decline in every way I can think of. It has lost its way and is more unpopular than ever. I actually think the rot started a long time ago - around the time of Vietnam and Watergate. But in the last 15-20 years the country has seemed to go into free fall.

The question is: is the decline terminal and unstoppable?

That's pretty much my feelings on the US also. I would have loved to move there in the early 90s.

I wonder would it be fair to say that the Federal Reserve bank is slowly destroying America?

The gap between the filthy rich and the rest of the population is humongous.

It doesn't seem like a safe place anymore.

kravmaga

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Anyone ever wonder how we would fare without our big crazy loudmouth mates in the good old US of A?

When ya think about it a lot of what is wrong with society and our world these days stems from over there. There constantly up to some crazy **** and they seem to have the most extreme people when it comes to personality's and how they react to situations.

These days if there not shooting each other there offended by there own shadows !

Ya fair enough we would obviously be missing out on some great forms of entertainment over the years (Tv films sport etc) but how does everyone think the human race and society as a whole would do without them?

One thing I notice about Americans is that they speak very loud as in nearly shouting when they talk , is this a learned behaviours through their schooling system or a society thing whereby those who shout loudest get heard more??

Ive been to the States many times and have worked for American multi-nationals here in Dublin and have never met a shy retiring type of American with no opinions, lol

Im not anti-American but they are even louder when drunk, maybe its an ego thing like their current President

kravmaga

Old Perry wrote: »

Who would Mexicans sell their drugs to though?

You mean the Colombians

fly_agaric

Permabear wrote: »

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An automatic sort of anti-Americanism does go hand in hand with far left-wing politics, but I'm not that sure about the many bit, even among the left. I suppose that's what made me write a post, some of what was in the thread surprised me.
I think (hope!) most people of all sorts of political stripes in Ireland are pragmatic, and know what side their bread is buttered on when it comes to the US.

Permabear

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the_syco

the_syco wrote: »

Without the USA, WW1 would still have happened regardless, and the Treaty of Versailles that lead to WW2 would still have been put in place, but without the funding from the US banks, WW2 may not have happened as soon as did. Hitler would still have gained power, and no doubt would have invaded Poland, but after that; Nazi Germany may have tried to get capital to progress with Hitlers plans. Instead of an all out war, it could have started slower, with the "push" happening later. Hitlers "Final Solution" would be probably have been overlooked, in the same way policies in Russia were ignored.

Strange assumption that the Kaiser/Germany would still have lost the war so badly without US intervention. Before the supply of war materials and troops by the US, Germany was more than holding its own against the allies. They weren't winning in any decisive way but then neither were the allies. Without US support, its more likely the Major powers would have eventually sued for peace, with minor countries like Belgium, Luxemburg etc being divided between the Majors. A redrawing of the borders, a reasonably secure Imperial government, and no reason for Hitler ever to gain power.

Without WW2, Russia may not have as big a military as after WW2, but would probably still have a decent sized army.

Without WW2, the Russian army would have been much smaller until later... Stalin had just knocked off the officer corps & his navy and was turning his attention to the general troops for loyalty checks when the war began. He had no desire for a strong military that was not completely loyal to him... and it's likely that he would have stayed focused on internal threats throughout his life if he had been left alone.

Would Germany still have been trying to make a nuke? And if they succeeded, would they sue for no repatriations, or just have hit England?

Sure. All major nations would be going for nuke... and it really depends on who was in power, and whether Britain still guaranteed Poland. France guaranteed Poland and didn't help. Without the belief that the US would be there to help, it's very possible that the UK would have decided not to intervene, and Hitler had no desire to attack Britain. He was only really interested in humiliating the French for Versailles, living space to the east and destroying the Eastern threats. It's more likely that if Britain had stayed out (which had been a very possible outcome), he would have gone after Russia frst, and then into Asia proper.

Capt'n Midnight

the_syco wrote: »

Would Germany still have been trying to make a nuke? And if they succeeded, would they sue for no repatriations, or just have hit England?

Everyone was trying to make a nuke after
a - the report of fission of uranium in 1938
b - the disappearance of published articles relating to fission shortly afterwards

Hitler did not allow the use of chemical or biological weapons even though the Germans had both so it's possible he'd not allow radioactive ones. Some US units were checking for radiation during WWII in case the Germans were sprinkling the magic pixie power as they retreated.

JupiterKid

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm sure that's true, especially during the Great Depression of the 1930s. But the last 20 years has seen, in my opinion, a genuine and worrying decline in the USA. A lot of its infrastructure, built in the mid to late 20th century, is old and worn out - power grids barely able to cope with demand, dams silting up, freeways with potholes, bridges that need urgent replacement. The country seems more divided than ever - especially between the squeezed lower middle class and the super rich. A number of major cities that were once industrial powerhouses are in serious decline. Some American friends of mine have told me that the "American Dream" is over and that their children will be significantly worse off than they were. And then you have an egotistical, narcissistic President who won't listen to anyone.

I certainly don't wish Ill on America. US investment has helped transform Ireland economically and socially. An America in serious decline is in nobody's interest. But from what I can see it is in trouble and is tearing itself apart. Time will tell.

archer22

Permabear wrote: »

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Or maybe they are just people who put morals above a fistful of grubby American Dollars.

America is a major threat to the world, they are the nation most likely to kick off World War 3 (Trumps ranting about destroying another nation recently is proof of that if any was needed)....and even if they don't manage to do that, their constant denial of climate change poses a major threat to life on this planet.

Another reason I dislike them is their attempts to impose their trash culture and ways on the world, and their attempts to destroy all the ancient and fascinating cultures that make the world so interesting...cultures that existed long before they slaughtered the native Americans and stole their lands.

There is nothing good about America it's just that a lot of people have been brainwashed into believing there is....would an intrinsically good nation veto every UN resolution that tries to stop the genocide of the Palestinians!.

Zebra3

Permabear wrote: »

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"Only". :pac:

Doesn't make any difference if its domestic or overseas where the money is owed.

If the US refuses to pay back its debts and the lenders stop lending, how will the country continue to function?

jmayo

shaunr68 wrote: »

I'd suggest that crippling German industry by flattening the centres of production, killing ten of thousands of industrial workers and putting millions more out of their homes, and as you say tying up thousands of flak guns and 100,000 men in flak units defending Germany, is a massive contribution to the defeat of the Axis in Europe, even before the Western Allies put significant numbers of boots on the ground in July 1943 with the start of the Italian campaign. Not to forget the 300,000 men the Germans lost as casualties or POWs in North Africa.

As someone else mentioned it is marvelous how production was maintained or even increased in some cases during the bombing.
Granted it became harder and rail links, etc were being cut which had other implications.
The bombing campaigns biggest contribution was in tying up resources that could have made a difference on the Eastern Front.

BTW when asked how the bombing campaign was affecting German war production, one US Army Air Force general stated that production would be affected more if they were allowed bomb Switzerland.

kooper wrote: »

Well we can only assume how long it would last if there were no D-Day.
Lend Lease Act was the key for Russia, if there wasn't any, the loss numbers could be a lot higher, than it's now. Current numbers are terrifying, I afraid to think what would it be if there was no Lend Lease and D-Day.

Without D-Day the Soviets would eventually have worn the Germans down and slaughtered their way to the English Channel.
You would have multiple Warsaws in places like France, Denmark, Netherlands where the locals were encouraged to uprise and then be left to be slaughtered by local Axis forces.

Mutant z wrote: »

Israel would fall, without USA protection it would be invaded by hostile neighbouring states.

Correction it would probably not even exist without US.

Zebra3 wrote: »

The point the US became a superpower was during WWII. The price of oil being switched from sterling to USD was a massive game changer.

That has given the US the ability to simply print money as it sees fit. However the US is in decline. Debt, imperial over reach, and declining standard of living for those outside the 1% means it’s a spentforce.

The only question is, will it keep on gradually declining or will there be a spectacular implosion?

Dream on lad if you think that the US will disappear and be subsumed into some other state.
Just like Russia, the US is a major force in the world due to fact it has all those nukes.
They aren't like the empires of old that could be eventually invaded and consigned to history.
As long as they both have the capability to wipe out the planet they are a force and are relevant.

Your implosion from within could be a possibility and one you should be very very scared about, not freaking somehow welcoming it. :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Also Antonio Meucci invented the telephone not Bell.

But he was living in the US.
He was also mates with one Giuseppe Garibaldi.


A lot of posters have made some very relevant posts about how lots of inventions were not made by US or people in the US.
But the thing they are failing to notice is how the US has been behind growth and how it's very existence has attracted the best minds and how it's capital has been wisely invested to promote invention and development.
The US was seen as a place of freedom and a land of opportunity.
It has attracted immigrants from around the globe, who have either directly added to industrial and technological development or who have provided the next generation of Americans that have added to industrial and technological development.

Great minds such as Einstein, Fermi fled to US, others such as Tesla, Mandelbrot immigrated to US.
Inventors, designers, industrialists such as Alexander Graham Bell, Igor Sikorsky, Robert Carnegie, Sergey Brin all immigrated to the US

Scientists such as Robert Oppenheimer, designers such as Steve Jobs, industrialists such as Henry Ford were the offspring of immigrants.
And it isn't just designers, industrialists and inventors, you have artists, musicians, philosophers, economists, movie directors, etc.

And the trend continues to this day.
Look at the number of foreign students in MIT.
Why did the Collison brothers go to the US ?

Also the US provided a location for revolutionaries to grow and foster their ideas that one day would be taken back to their homelands.

I mentioned Giuseppe Garibaldi earlier.
He was only one of many who would one day return to their homeland and change the status quo.

Gringo180

OnDraught wrote: »

That’s the Russians you’re thinking of.

Indeed. The Soviet Union bore the brunt of the casualties in the second world war. 65% of the military deaths where from the Soviet Union. Its just a pity western propaganda brainwashes there civilians that they are the bad guys.

Gringo180

Mutant z wrote: »

Israel would fall, without USA protection it would be invaded by hostile neighbouring states.

So what? Israel falling would mean zero to American interests. I think the biggest threat to Israels security is by successive governments chosing expansion over security. Israel was hugely popular country before going down the road of building illegal settlements. Its now a Pariah state.

Gringo180

Gringo180 wrote: »

Indeed. The Soviet Union bore the brunt of the casualties in the second world war. 65% of the military deaths where from the Soviet Union. Its just a pity western propaganda brainwashes there civilians that they are the bad guys.

It was a vicious war. I doubt you can really call any of them 'good' guys. Allied forces on more than one occasion slaughtered U-Boat crews in the water, while complaining about German forces doing the same. British forces created pow camps than were comparable to the Japanese camps with prisoners starving to death or dying from the cold. And the firebombing of Dresden killing over 20,000 civilians mostly women and children stands out in my mind.

As for the Russians, they raped everything that moved in their advance and afterwards. The allied forces did also but not to the same extent. The Russians also tortured pows, and civilians alike for fun.

Permabear

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Mutant z

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel is a nuclear armed state that is happy enough attacking its neighbours and ethnicly cleansing Palestinians. It'd get by without the US.

How do you think Israel manages to get hold of those nukes, with no USA it wouldnt have those nukes in the first place so its a mute point.

Zebra3

Mutant z wrote: »

How do you think Israel manages to get hold of those nukes, with no USA it wouldnt have those nukes in the first place so its a mute point.

Israel got its nuclear technology from France.

Zebra3

Permabear wrote: »

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Some were claiming America could just simply not repay the debt.

I pointed out that this would cause huge economic and social problems.

So thanks for your post.

Permabear

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Cian_ok

Mutant z wrote: »

How do you think Israel manages to get hold of those nukes, with no USA it wouldnt have those nukes in the first place so its a mute☆ point.

Either way. Israel was a product of WW2. Without America it would have been a very different war and the creation of Israel is unknown.

☆ moot point.

archer22

Cian_ok wrote: »

Either way. Israel was a product of WW2. Without America it would have been a very different war and the creation of Israel is unknown.

☆ moot point.

A commonly held perception...but actually it was the Balfour declaration of 1917 that was the origin of Israel.

Cian_ok

archer22 wrote: »

A commonly held perception...but actually it was the Balfour declaration of 1917 that was the origin of Israel.

Interesting. Thanks. However, as the rest of this thread talks about the possible outcome of WW2, if the British didn't win thethen the Balfour declaration wouldn't be useful. But it is good to know.

dreamers75

rustynutz wrote: »

Id say we'd be all speaking German if America never existed

Russian.

The americans helped, the british killed the oil supply, the russians killed everything.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

Some were claiming America could just simply not repay the debt..

That would be me.

When exactly do you believe that these debts will be called up? And how will they pay those debts except to create debt from other lenders..? Until it reaches a point where paying the debt will become impossible.

archer22 wrote: »

A commonly held perception...but actually it was the Balfour declaration of 1917 that was the origin of Israel.

Thought the Balfour agreement created a certain management structure for Jews and Palestinians/Arabs after the British left/abandoned the area... and it was Roosevelt's pressure on the UN that created the state of Israel?

Creative83

Have to laugh at the posters in this thread saying that the USSR were the reason that Hitler was defeated. That's not only false but the audacity of people that claim that is stunning. The allies in that war fought and died for the freedoms that we enjoy today... freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, democracy... the USSR was against all of that and you would be executed or sent to a camp in Siberia if you disagreed with their system.

At the end of the day, American power outlasted that of the USSR... and that can only ever be described as a good thing.

mini_Sapphire

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

Have to laugh at the posters in this thread saying that the USSR were the reason that Hitler was defeated. That's not only false but the audacity of people that claim that is stunning. The allies in that war fought and died for the freedoms that we enjoy today... freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, democracy... the USSR was against all of that and you would be executed or sent to a camp in Siberia if you disagreed with their system.

At the end of the day, American power outlasted that of the USSR... and that can only ever be described as a good thing.

Another way that the world has swung. It's funny how you accuse us as not appreciating the values that the allies strove to protect, and then in the same paragraph seek to take away our right to speak negatively about them.

And you might want to consider what the societies (and behaviour) of the allied nations were like before, during and after the war.

Britain was still an empire with colonies who didn't wish to be colonies, who conscripted troops to fight their war against Germany. I always find it interesting that people complain about Britain and how they behaved towards the Irish, but ignore that quite a few countries remained under direct British rule for a long time... And we could consider the British version of concentration camps, or Churchills desire to use gas in rebellions within the Empire.

And America? You seem to have dismissed the racial discrimination not just against black people, but also against the native Indians. Or the imprisonment of Japanese-Americans into camps. Or the conscription of those discriminated against in civilian life but further discriminated in the war. Or the fact that there was no real desire to enter WW2, and they only joined because Hitler declared war on them. Roosevelt had no support in the government for an intervention into Europe and was seen as a war-monger until the Japanese attack.

I could go on, and list loads of infractions of liberty or 'bad behaviour' of the allies... There's plenty to choose from especially with how they behaved (war crimes that were never investigated or processed) throughout the war itself. But, you've missed a vital point of all this.

You/we can respect what the allies did to stop Germany while debating historical events. And you/we can also discuss events beyond the propaganda that we have all been exposed to all our lives. It's really only now that we are starting to see movies that realistically show the brutality of the war... without solely focusing on the Axis as the perpetrators.

And Russia failed due to economics. Not because of their political or moral ideology. Just look at China... and they've killed more of their own people than Stalin & Hitler combined... and they're still around stronger than ever before.

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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Agreed... although, within the last century, Western economies have experienced two major economic crashes and a few hiccups. They're not exactly using the most stable system to secure the future.

It's fine though. I'm just guessing. Nothing concrete behind my points.

Ulysses Gaze

Mutant z wrote: »

Israel would fall, without USA protection it would be invaded by hostile neighbouring states.

You do know that Israel has repelled multiple invasions from Arab armies?

The War of Independence in 1947
The Six Day War in 1967
Yom Kippur War in 1973

And if all else fails and they are going to go down, there is the Samson Option.

Permabear

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marienbad

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

Have to laugh at the posters in this thread saying that the USSR were the reason that Hitler was defeated. That's not only false but the audacity of people that claim that is stunning. The allies in that war fought and died for the freedoms that we enjoy today... freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, democracy... the USSR was against all of that and you would be executed or sent to a camp in Siberia if you disagreed with their system.

At the end of the day, American power outlasted that of the USSR... and that can only ever be described as a good thing.

What a curious post . Are you saying that because the USSR and Stalin were evil we should ignore the facts of history ?

Ulysses Gaze

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

Have to laugh at the posters in this thread saying that the USSR were the reason that Hitler was defeated. That's not only false but the audacity of people that claim that is stunning. The allies in that war fought and died for the freedoms that we enjoy today... freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, democracy... the USSR was against all of that and you would be executed or sent to a camp in Siberia if you disagreed with their system.

At the end of the day, American power outlasted that of the USSR... and that can only ever be described as a good thing.

I absolutely despise Communism, but the Red Army did bleed the Wehrmacht dry on the Eastern Front.

If you have not read it, Stalingrad by Anthony Beevor pretty much illustrates that fact.

branie2

There'd be no trick or treaters at Halloween, as it was an American custom that came over here

Salthillprom

Watch The Man in the High Castle. Shows a world without America

Wibbs

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

Answers inline

You seem to have ignored this point; And Russia failed due to economics. Not because of their political or moral ideology. Just look at China... and they've killed more of their own people than Stalin & Hitler combined... and they're still around stronger than ever before. And went off on a tangent about the space race. Oh and BTW both lost a lot of test pilots in the pursuit of better aircraft and space exploration. There are a long list of Americans, British, Germans, French, Russian, etc who gave their lives "pushing the envelope". The Soviets got the initial jump on the US quite simply because they had a technological lead on them.

suicide_circus

Does anyone seriously think that a world dominated by Russia would be a better place than a world dominated by America?

Wibbs

Not me anyway.

Wanderer78

suicide_circus wrote:

Does anyone seriously think that a world dominated by Russia would be a better place than a world dominated by America?

Much of a muchness, probably doesn't matter which countries are world super powers, arseholes everywhere on this planet