Inheritance / farm transfer

squinn2912

Sales of cattle yes. He is a building contractor as well so down the years there was that but it's quieter now obviously. We have a digger and driver and that takes in a bit, mainly during the summer. We run 50-60 cows so sell from weanling to forward store usually. Thinking about dipping down in cows to take more through to beef. I'd be wary of cutting cow numbers too much though. We have a lot of reseeding to do on ground left to us from an uncle. Strange he told us his plans. Didn't change things too much.

blue5000

I think the earlier that a successor is identified the better for everyone. But talking to other lads my age on a lot of small to medium farms we'll be the last generation of full time farmers on the farm. I think we all know of small well run profitable mostly dairy farms where 5 or 6 kids were reared and sent to college by farmers in our parent's generation, this is no longer possible IMO.

Profits to do this simply aren't there now, even on dairy farms. Expansion has to be paid for by profit, so with slim margins on drystock and tillage farms scope is limited. Another factor at work in the south of the country anyway is land being bought up by very wealthy families, land is a very tax efficient way of transferring assets to the younger generation.

ganmo

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Can I ask a different question .
What age should a farmer retire at?

From what I see around the place farmers don't retire...they break! They just keep working until they can't anymore.

whelan2

ganmo wrote: »

From what I see around the place farmers don't retire...they break! They just keep working until they can't anymore.

For alot of them it's what keeps them going.

patsy_mccabe

blue5000 wrote: »

....................Another factor at work in the south of the country anyway is land being bought up by very wealthy families, land is a very tax efficient way of transferring assets to the younger generation.

I've seen a few very wealthy couples buy a farm recently. Everyone is wondering why. I know, or at least I suspect, its to transfer wealth over to their kids. You have to have it so many years though, don't you?

stretch film

blue5000 wrote: »

I think the earlier that a successor is identified the better for everyone. But talking to other lads my age on a lot of small to medium farms we'll be the last generation of full time farmers on the farm. I think we all know of small well run profitable mostly dairy farms where 5 or 6 kids were reared and sent to college by farmers in our parent's generation, this is no longer possible IMO.

Profits to do this simply aren't there now, even on dairy farms. Expansion has to be paid for by profit, so with slim margins on drystock and tillage farms scope is limited. Another factor at work in the south of the country anyway is land being bought up by very wealthy families, land is a very tax efficient way of transferring assets to the younger generation.

not a totally new phenomenom.
did the 80 hrs course with teagasc over 20 yrs ago to complete the green cert.
quiet a few ducks outta water attending. one guy in particular heading straight back to london to continue his career in the financial sector.

farm signed over here when i was in my early 30s .
system here is that all my parents work is paid for and this is in recognition of current and past contributions . if the level of income allows this then it gives veryone credit for their efforts and id say smooths over the transition.
after all alot of the older generations have poured their lives into their farms.

Reggie.

stretch film wrote: »

not a totally new phenomenom.
did the 80 hrs course with teagasc over 20 yrs ago to complete the green cert.
quiet a few ducks outta water attending. one guy in particular heading straight back to london to continue his career in the financial sector.

farm signed over here when i was in my early 30s .
system here is that all my parents work is paid for and this is in recognition of current and past contributions . if the level of income allows this then it gives veryone credit for their efforts and id say smooths over the transition.
after all alot of the older generations have poured their lives into their farms.

It'll go down the road of how it's done in England. Owners of the land are only the owner. People lease the land to work it on thier behalf.

Bullocks

Reggie. wrote: »

It'll go down the road of how it's done in England. Owners of the land are only the owner. People lease the land to work it on thier behalf.

With the price of land here I think it makes more sense to work land that way .

lakill Farm

Bullocks wrote: »

I'm probably a bit different/miserable but in this day and age of crap returns from farming I find it more satifactory to pull money from the farm without putting loads in .
In fact I'm watching 2 local lads that are taking over small farms from their fathers and reckon they have spent more on sheds/tractors /reseeding than they are likely to draw back out in at least 10 years . I know its parttime farming but feck that for a game of cowboys

can be massive tax benefits

patsy_mccabe

If you are working off farm, especially at the higher rate of tax, are you not better to maximise your Capital Alowances and pour money into worthwhiel investments to improve things. After the 8 years, the buildings and newish tractor will still be there to make life easier and you will have written of half their value in tax.
Soemthing worth considering, especially if heading into retirement.

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

For alot of them it's what keeps them going.

Unfortunately it can be to the detriment of the farm and animal welfare, also see father/son combinations where the father gets bad health and puts huge pressure on the son when he takes his annual breaks in the hospital which inevitably happens at peak times in the winter with flu's etc going astray.
Very important for farmers to have dependable help.

davidk1394

Reggie. wrote: »

Thought you were heading off

Going in January. Change in circumstances means I have to stick around till then

White Clover

I was 22 when the farm was signed over to me. Got and still get plenty help from the boss man, but he has never questioned any of my decisions from day one. Looking back now, I wish he had! When I think about it, I have made some woeful mistakes but never the same one twice....i hope!
I think I am one of the lucky ones though.

naughto

I don't see any problem with just farming for the entitiments why not if the system is there.it would be the way I'd go if the opportunity comes up

Icelandicseige

naughto wrote: »

I don't see any problem with just farming for the entitiments why not if the system is there.it would be the way I'd go if the opportunity comes up

If one was taking over a place that needed a lot put in before anything can come out and works full time off farm, why not do as little as possible work wise and claim Bfp and the likes.. it makes 100% sence to me anyway.. although I am a person who doesn't give a f##k what the neighbours think so....

kowtow

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I've seen a few very wealthy couples buy a farm recently. Everyone is wondering why. I know, or at least I suspect, its to transfer wealth over to their kids. You have to have it so many years though, don't you?

Not in Ireland. At present you just need to structure things so that it (agricultural assets) represent more than 80% of the childs wealth when he/she inherits.

There is a gradual strengthening of conditions, like green certs, but there is no requirement for the child to have a farming education or be a farmer in the commonly understood sense. The inheritor can also rent out the land to an active farmer to satisfy the tests.

So yes - a very generous way of shifting land, and houses up to a point.

MfMan

As an aside, Teagasc are currently running a series of seminars re: Farm Transfers. Check your local office for whatever county you are in.

GrasstoMilk

24 here and in partnership with parents for the last 4 years. Came home when I was 18 after I did 2 years in ag college and was let on with most stuff- tbf dad was always very progressive and most of the things I started doing he would have done it in some shape or form I was just doing it a more modern way I suppose.
We both have rows about silly little things but there is never any really bad ones we just have different ways of doing the same thing.
Neither of us deal much with the bills, mam sorts them and she can stay doing it for as long as she wants as it's one less job for me to do. Me and dad just worry about the stock and spending the money

Not worried about farm transfer either, I know I wil get it before I'm 35, I have a wage and I have say In everything that's happening. I have land in my name and any new land that comes into play will be put in mine as well.

Bullocks

lakill Farm wrote: »

can be massive tax benefits

Maybe to write down a few expenses but I'd be as happy paying the tax and using the cash for a holiday . These lads wouldnt have brilliant jobs to need to avoid that much tax

darragh_haven

Youngest of 4 sons here, and I'm now 38. Dad has always been a very progressive farmer and was at the leading edge of things when we were in Dairy.
Never got on properly with my dad (like my 3 oldr brother) even tho the farm was signed over about 6 years ago, but it was a paperwork excersize. Decided to go off working in engineering full time 7 years ago as any suggestion or decision would be shot down straight away. Treated as a teenage worker in my late 20s and early 30s. I'm doing less and less on the farm as time goes on.
Probably go back to it when my dad is 6 feet under, and that's the harsh reality.

adam14

kowtow wrote:

There is a gradual strengthening of conditions, like green certs, but there is no requirement for the child to have a farming education or be a farmer in the commonly understood sense. The inheritor can also rent out the land to an active farmer to satisfy the tests.

kowtow wrote:

Not in Ireland. At present you just need to structure things so that it (agricultural assets) represent more than 80% of the childs wealth when he/she inherits.

kowtow wrote:

So yes - a very generous way of shifting land, and houses up to a point.

You have to farm it for 6 years

kowtow

adam14 wrote:

You have to farm it for 6 years

That's after inheriting not before.

And you can lease to an active farmer instead if farming it yourself, iirc

Bass Reeves

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Can I ask a different question .
What age should a farmer retire at?

Like any other job when he chooses to and can financially afford to. More and more people are working into there 70's not for everyone but for some this is the case.

BENDYBINN wrote: »

So parents shouldn't sign over till they reach pension age?

It can be very hard for parents to sign over, there may be demansd finiancially on them even after pension age. The OAP is 240/week approx for a couple sub 500/week. If the farmer si the older spouse and the spouse is not working it skews the finance's again

Bullocks wrote: »

What do you mean sign over ? Land or herd number , they dont have to go hand in hand .
You dont need daddy's farm in order to be a farmer . I learned along time ago that it can be better to go your own path rather than wait for the wrinklies to hand over what they put their lifes work into
Of course the home farm is great to get but if its not big enough to support two wages you cant expect someone to give up their piece of it until they are good and ready with their time first

This is the nub of the matter. Some lads think they are entitled to a farm in there twenties. There parents may be only in there 50's. Mind you some parents are stupid encourageing kids in drystock into doing Green cert at straight after school. Send them to college or let them get a trade a 100+ acre drystock farm is capable of being run part time

Bullocks wrote: »

Maybe to write down a few expenses but I'd be as happy paying the tax and using the cash for a holiday . These lads wouldnt have brilliant jobs to need to avoid that much tax

High tax rate kick in at 33k for a single person. Now I am not an advacote o overspending on machinery but using tax benifits to set farm up to be easy to run with trought, fencing and shed uis a good idea.

carrollsno1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Like any other job when he chooses to and can financially afford to. More and more people are working into there 70's not for everyone but for some this is the case.




It can be very hard for parents to sign over, there may be demansd finiancially on them even after pension age. The OAP is 240/week approx for a couple sub 500/week. If the farmer si the older spouse and the spouse is not working it skews the finance's again



This is the nub of the matter. Some lads think they are entitled to a farm in there twenties. There parents may be only in there 50's. Mind you some parents are stupid encourageing kids in drystock into doing Green cert at straight after school. Send them to college or let them get a trade a 100+ acre drystock farm is capable of being run part time



High tax rate kick in at 33k for a single person. Now I am not an advacote o overspending on machinery but using tax benifits to set farm up to be easy to run with trought, fencing and shed uis a good idea.

Are those 100 acres in one block or fragmented makes a big difference to work load!!!

Bass Reeves

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Are those 100 acres in one block or fragmented makes a big difference to work load!!!

I have 70ish acres and the main farm is 10 miles away, there are two blocks in total. If you lived on main block of 50+% of the total and rest was in 2 blocks it should be doable. Big thing is get fencing right. Load of b@llax spending a few hours a week looking for a few cattle. Had 8-10 acres rented last year spend 3-4 times more time b@llaxing at that with fixing fences, walking back through it to check cattle and a low stocking rate as water was at the back of it as I did on the 8ish acres around the house.

Large fields with area's of scrub are the same spending 20-30 minutes looking for a few cattle sheltering in it day after day is a pain. Moving catle in such situations is the same trying to get them out of a field after being in it 3-4 weeks compared to a paddcok system where they come out of there own accord. A well set up 100 acre farm in 2-3 blocks is very managable. Concentrate on fencing and paddocks, contract out slurry, silage making and stacking, cattle haulage etc. No point in doing work that is only saving you 3-6 euro/hour.

patsy_mccabe

Fencing has to be by far the best investment in a livestock farm. God , when I think back to the messing we used to do here years ago. Often 5 or 6 people to move cattle. I do it all on my own now by shaking a bag of meal or opening a plastic fence handle.

Base price

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Fencing has to be by far the best investment in a livestock farm. God , when I think back to the messing we used to do here years ago. Often 5 or 6 people to move cattle. I do it all on my own now by shaking a bag of meal or opening a plastic fence handle.

All our cattle are trained to the plastic bag as calves. Easiest way to move/gather cattle unless your young, fit and able to chase them around the farm

nice_guy80

anyone doing a green cert starting this year?

MIKEKC

whelan2 wrote: »

Young lad is 16. He has 14 calves, a pedigree Angus heifer and calf. Gets paid. Has his say in things. My dad was similar with me.

Didn't know you get a herd number at 16

Bullocks

nice_guy80 wrote: »

anyone doing a green cert starting this year?

I started this year

Reggie.

Bullocks wrote: »

I started this year

Very mature student

charolais0153

Base price wrote: »

All our cattle are trained to the plastic bag as calves. Easiest way to move/gather cattle unless your young, fit and able to chase them around the farm

Dog does chasing here:)....electric reels and a handful of pigtails are the job though

Bullocks

Reggie. wrote: »

Very mature student

Ha ha , you're never too old to learn . I actually got turned away from a nightclub the last night cos I wasn't a student , must ask them for a card

Base price

charolais0153 wrote: »

Dog does chasing here:)....electric reels and a handful of pigtails are the job though

I was going to add dogs but for most cattle farmers they are not an option unless you farm white vermin :rolleyes:

beauf

Reggie. wrote: »

What I notice around here is young people are being pushed out from the farm. Parents are reluctant to give over any type of decision making to the children. As a result no interest from the children and they move on disillusioned about farming in thier youth.

Then the bitching/complaining starts with the parents that the children have abandoned the farm and never around to help when upto that point they were treated as slave labour. I unfortunately have seen this around me and experienced it myself. It's a pity as I love farming and the life it brings.

The current generation seem to think they have to hold onto the farm till thier last breath and any attempt at help is either not appreciated or seen as some evil plan to prise the farm from them. Never can understand the fascination of the older generation towards having to own land. Real life "the field" played out on a daily basis around here.

Thankfully I see lots of farms too where the handover is done when the parents are young enough to still enjoy life and be involved with the farm when it suits and also the drive is still with the successor with youth and interest on thier side.

Right that's my rant over.

What you is also true outside of farming, its the same for any family business.

I had the same experience in another industry. Realized things weren't going to change, so switched to another career. The auld man regretted it all later.

whelan2

MIKEKC wrote: »

Didn't know you get a herd number at 16

They are in my herd number

Reggie.

beauf wrote: »

What you is also true outside of farming, its the same for any family business.

I had the same experience in another industry. Realized things weren't going to change, so switched to another career. The auld man regretted it all later.

I've no problem with a parent having the child work from the bottom up in a business as it build character and should snuff out any self entitlement but as you gave an example of there. Abuse will get ya no where. I've been constantly told here by an individual to "to think of the future" as the boot was stuck in constantly.

Finally had enough and now a few months down the line I'm pretty sure they are the ones that are running that through thier head now.

lakill Farm

Bullocks wrote: »

Ha ha , you're never too old to learn . I actually got turned away from a nightclub the last night cos I wasn't a student , must ask them for a card

Would that not be ageism ?

Bullocks

lakill Farm wrote: »

Would that not be ageism ?

Don't know but he wouldn't let two of us in because it was students night and we had no card . Hard to argue ageism when full of porter !

Hard Knocks

Reggie. wrote: »

Abuse will get ya no where. I've been constantly told here by an individual to "to think of the future" as the boot was stuck in constantly.

Finally had enough and now a few months down the line I'm pretty sure they are the ones that are running that through thier head now.

Sadly do they!
As a young lad I was big for my age & was called upon by older farmers.
The complaint would start about their child(ren), useless ungrateful ... Afterwards it dawned on me that they were the problem, but tinted glasses...
Would the actions / attitude be what they themselves experienced & they believe that way is how it should be

tractorporn

This thread is makes for very interesting reading. I'm almost 38 aand I left a good job in the UK to come home and be able to help out on the farm after repeated guilt trips from my mother, my father is 72.

I entered a partnership with my father 2 years ago with the opening of the young farmers scheme. Dad only considered it because there was extra money in it. Currently trying to sort out a succession plan to claim the tax relief but I can get him to sit down and discuss it. My plan would be to stay in partnership but I would be the majority shareholder. I think myself that a retirement scheme would be a good idea it would encourage more lads to seriously think about handing over.

Buford T. Justice XIX

tractorporn wrote: »

This thread is makes for very interesting reading. I'm almost 38 aand I left a good job in the UK to come home and be able to help out on the farm after repeated guilt trips from my mother, my father is 72.

I entered a partnership with my father 2 years ago with the opening of the young farmers scheme. Dad only considered it because there was extra money in it. Currently trying to sort out a succession plan to claim the tax relief but I can get him to sit down and discuss it. My plan would be to stay in partnership but I would be the majority shareholder. I think myself that a retirement scheme would be a good idea it would encourage more lads to seriously think about handing over.

I doubt we will ever see a farm retirement scheme again. Many of the farmers in the first scheme never withdrew from farming, just carried on as normal.

I heard a good story about a neighbour in the scheme. One day, while he was drawing bales from an outfarm, an inspector stopped him in the yard and told him he would have to stop.

The farmer replied - if I don't do it then who will?

Back into the tractor and back for more bales:D

naughto

tractorporn wrote: »

This thread is makes for very interesting reading. I'm almost 38 aand I left a good job in the UK to come home and be able to help out on the farm after repeated guilt trips from my mother, my father is 72.

I entered a partnership with my father 2 years ago with the opening of the young farmers scheme. Dad only considered it because there was extra money in it. Currently trying to sort out a succession plan to claim the tax relief but I can get him to sit down and discuss it. My plan would be to stay in partnership but I would be the majority shareholder. I think myself that a retirement scheme would be a good idea it would encourage more lads to seriously think about handing over.

Did you have any notion of oning home to farm?
It's not right to pressure some in to a job they might not have a passion is the farm big enough to support yourself and a family when there gone to the man above is what I'd be asking

nice_guy80

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I doubt we will ever see a farm retirement scheme again. Many of the farmers in the first scheme never withdrew from farming, just carried on as normal.

I heard a good story about a neighbour in the scheme. One day, while he was drawing bales from an outfarm, an inspector stopped him in the yard and told him he would have to stop.

The farmer replied - if I don't do it then who will?

Back into the tractor and back for more bales:D

they actually had more inspectors checking the retirement scheme than any other scheme

anyone recently completed a green cert? whats the workload like?
I'm intending on doing it using just one or two animals.

croot

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I've seen a few very wealthy couples buy a farm recently. Everyone is wondering why. I know, or at least I suspect, its to transfer wealth over to their kids. You have to have it so many years though, don't you?

I did the part time green cert 20 years ago after university and I’d say every second guy wasn’t from a farming background and most haven’t set foot on a farm since.

At the time I didn’t see myself farming either. I really hated it probably because of being forced into it as a kid. After I got my degree I got a job in Dublin and had no intention of coming back farming. I only came back due to dads I’ll health and then caught the disease. Has anyone actually found a cure?

charolais0153

croot wrote: »

I did the part time green cert 20 years ago after university and I’d say every second guy wasn’t from a farming background and most haven’t set foot on a farm since.

At the time I didn’t see myself farming either. I really hated it probably because of being forced into it as a kid. After I got my degree I got a job in Dublin and had no intention of coming back farming. I only came back due to dads I’ll health and then caught the disease. Has anyone actually found a cure?

Death? Cures it fairly lively

tractorporn

naughto wrote:

Did you have any notion of oning home to farm? It's not right to pressure some in to a job they might not have a passion is the farm big enough to support yourself and a family when there gone to the man above is what I'd be asking

Yeah it was always my intention to come home but I would have preferred to do it in my own time. Don't get me wrong my Dad is great at most things but this he will just not entertain.

I'm currently in a good position with work and have been offered a 3 day week if I want it but I won't take them up on it without a guarentee of making up the loss in income I've seen too many lads slave for nothing.

divillybit

MeTheMan wrote: »

Described above is the exact situation I'm in. Have been helping on the farm since I could walk. Now that I'm 27 I'm still at it. Only got my first few sheep last year. And all that has done is given the ole lad a reason to have me there more often. 'Your sheep has maggots.' 'Your sheep has sore hoofs'. ' Your sheep got in the wrong field'. 9 times out of 10 it isnt even one of my sheep. The reward ill get for all this? What ever profit the lambs make. All 54 of them.
I always remember in national school. I was about 7 or 8 and a fella in the class below me talking about his 3 ewes and how he sold the 5 lambs and made 200 pounds. I was amazed at this. I thought some day dad will give me a few sheep. Little did I think I'd be wait nearly 20 years.

I'm unemployed at the minute and moving away would be my best hope of employment. But I just love where I live. Why? I don't know. By all accounts its an absolute **** hole. But its my **** hole. Farming seems like the best way an uneducated (no degree) person like myself could live here. I very much enjoy the farming and if possible I try to do things with the sheep myself. It's quicker and more straight forward most the time. he's not the easiest to work with.
I have so many ideas of what to do with land and stock and help improve efficiency but they are all closed down because he controls the finances. I don't wonder would I be better off financialy getting a job else where, I know I would. But mentally and physically I wouldn't.

To end it all off I don't even know will it be left to me. That disscussion was never had. I'm the only one of my siblings to help on the farm. But, stranger this have happened.

If I were you I'd cash in those sheep you have and use the few bob to invest in your education or get in to some kind of trade if you are mechanically minded. Full time farming is a hard earned euro and while I dont doubt you love the lifestyle it has alot of drawbacks too, and you may well resent the farm in time as it does restrict you in lots of ways e.g. cant head away on holidays etc unless you've someone trustworthy looking out for things at home. Plus if you're earning your own off farm wage its your money!

FLC

Father died when I was 18, so didn’t get the benefit of his experience. Back home now (42), decent off farm job and am taking over the place. Putting everything I take out of farm (few pound off cattle, BPS and some ground leased out) back into it and am improving it by degrees: drainage, sheds, yard, fencing etc. Extending / renovating the farmhouse and myself and my family are moving in with my mother. Love doing a bit at home and living on the farm (from the Spring) will allow me do more. Have a few small ones, all I want is to give them a good life, respect for nature and love of where they come from and ultimately to hand it over in a better place than I got it. Generational duty I suppose. Hopefully one of them will be in a position to run with it when the times comes. Banks would have put us on the side of the road in the 80’s if they could only for my parents toughed it out. I will be carried out of here in a box.

PatQfarmer

lakill Farm wrote: »

Land hard got my side of county

Probably down to the quality of tenant:D