The Irish landlord as the weakest link

the_syco

my poor tortured hands wrote: »

It seems the OP is performing an illegal eviction. At least, it's almost certain that that's how the tenants will describe the situation.

The tenants that he rented the place to are not there.

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Some genuine people who are homeless and need accommodation asap.

Either they've given you HAP forms, or once they move in, you'll have a new non-paying tenant to remove. Easy way to see if they're actually homeless or not; if they're homeless, HAP will pay two months deposit up front. If they're not actually homeless, HAP won't do this.

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

If you have CCTV outside the property, post it all over the internet, the clientele will stop returning

Nope. Would pain a target on the OP for people (such as others who live there) to sue him, as he'd be recording private property. Furthermore, it'd be easy for the people to see where the hidden camera is, and remove it. And then the OP wouldn't be able to see the goings on so easily.

Baby01032012

Update

Reminder this is the apartment with prostitution no rent overholding no inspection RTB adjudication found in my favour gave time to appeal. Guards visited 2nd time they agreed to leave voluntarily. I secured they or someone broke back in.

Latest: got letter from RTB that tenants have appealed and RTB has found they have grounds for appeal and will be in touch for date of tribunal. Have not said what grounds for appeal are. I'm nearly in tears here.

rawn

This is ridiculous. I'm so sorry for your troubles OP. Have you spoken to any of your local TD's?

The_Conductor

What the hell?
Surely they'll tell you what grounds they are appealing (whatever it is that they're appealing)?
They agreed to leave voluntarily- when requested to do so, by members of An Garda Síochána- after it was obvious they were running a brothel from the property.

I'm guessing they are appealing- solely to be assholes- and frankly would be very surprised if they actually turn up to a tribunal.

What is the current status with the property (aka is it still boarded up or what is the story)?

mugsymugsy

Get in contact with press as well. State you are a landlord that wants to help with homeless crisis yet because of the rtb you can't.

Best of luck

pc7

Jebus H Christ op! I’d be onto joe Duffy at this stage! You poor thing
Just thinking is this not good? Now guards can have their full details for charging them surely?

Baby01032012

Still boarded up. One girl turned up on Saturday expecting to walk in. I was going to leave another week to see if they try again or if they have given up. Will ring RTB tomorrow to try find out what grounds. Local news paper is running the story tomorrow. Will annoy my poor solicitor again with the update. He's waiting response from Garda on why they had no interest in noting a breakin when they or someone changed locks.

my3cents

Did the tenants get planning permission for change of use? Just wondered if they were conducting a business from the property they should have had planning permission?

Hold on if they were running a business what has the RTB got to do with a business rent?

Surely if they weren't paying business rates the local coco would get involved to shut them down?

Don't know if any of that is relevant but may be worth checking out?

The_Conductor

pc7 wrote: »

Jebus H Christ op! I’d be onto joe Duffy at this stage! You poor thing
Just thinking is this not good? Now guards can have their full details for charging them surely?

The Gardaí won't have charged them with anything- there is no reason to imagine they have any details relating to them on Pulse (or elsewhere).

These guys can hang around in the background- and toss in appeals/complaints/motions- ad infinitum- just to bug the landlord. They have nothing to loose, nothing at all- it doesn't cost them a penny- the whole system is setup to assist them at any cost.

Unfortunately- there is no such thing as a malicious complaint and/or appeal with the RTB- and there are no safeguards for landlords- all the safeguards are structured to protect the tenant(s) at any cost- regardless of what they do (such as not paying their rent, running a brothel, breaking into a dwelling after they voluntarily vacated it etc etc).

The former tenants are fully entitled to lob in spurious complaints, appeals etc- the landlord can do nothing to thwarth this process- on the brightside the landlord has vacant possession of the property- so at least this is a small silver lining to the cloud........

pilly

Baby01032012 wrote:

Still boarded up. One girl turned up on Saturday expecting to walk in. I was going to leave another week to see if they try again or if they have given up. Will ring RTB tomorrow to try find out what grounds. Local news paper is running the story tomorrow. Will annoy my poor solicitor again with the update. He's waiting response from Garda on why they had no interest in noting a breakin when they or someone changed locks.

Get on to the national press.

Browney7

The_Conductor wrote: »

The Gardaí won't have charged them with anything- there is no reason to imagine they have any details relating to them on Pulse (or elsewhere).

These guys can hang around in the background- and toss in appeals/complaints/motions- ad infinitum- just to bug the landlord. They have nothing to loose, nothing at all- it doesn't cost them a penny- the whole system is setup to assist them at any cost.

Unfortunately- there is no such thing as a malicious complaint and/or appeal with the RTB- and there are no safeguards for landlords- all the safeguards are structured to protect the tenant(s) at any cost- regardless of what they do (such as not paying their rent, running a brothel, breaking into a dwelling after they voluntarily vacated it etc etc).

The former tenants are fully entitled to lob in spurious complaints, appeals etc- the landlord can do nothing to thwarth this process- on the brightside the landlord has vacant possession of the property- so at least this is a small silver lining to the cloud........

Surely if the OP has a shred of proof that his property is being used as a knocking shop it's a slam dunk once it goes before a tribunal? Very frustrating and stressful for the OP though, no question about that!

emeldc

OP the way I see it now is that you have the upper hand because your tenant is now chasing you, rather than you chasing the tenant. My advice would be to leave it boarded up. I doubt they'll turn up to any hearing but even if they do I can’t see any ruling going against you.

Baby01032012

Thanks for all the posts.

Rang RTB this morning. Can't give me a rough idea of when tribunal will happen or what the basis is for appeal. They will tell me before the tribunal.
Rang the dectective. I told him I'll need him there and I will summon him if I have. With a tribunal I have that right. Also told him I'll need that break in on record. He said its "debatable" whether it's a break in. He hasn't heard anything about the solicitors letter sent on Monday. My blood is boiling right now.

LollipopJimmy

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Thanks for all the posts.

Rang RTB this morning. Can't give me a rough idea of when tribunal will happen or what the basis is for appeal. They will tell me before the tribunal.
Rang the dectective. I told him I'll need him there and I will summon him if I have. With a tribunal I have that right. Also told him I'll need that break in on record. He said its "debatable" whether it's a break in. He hasn't heard anything about the solicitors letter sent on Monday. My blood is boiling right now.

It's high time you started calling every media outlet, one of the nationals is bound to run with it

rawn

LollipopJimmy wrote:

It's high time you started calling every media outlet, one of the nationals is bound to run with it

Doubt it, when they've spent so much time painting landlords as greedy, all powerful millionaires, they wouldn't want to show the OTHER side of their stories!

hawkelady

Op , you said this story will be published in a newspaper today ( not sure if local or not). Was it published today?

Baby01032012

Yeah published today local paper. It's front cover with details inside. I've only seen the cover - landlord brothel horror- need to go home and buy paper edition, digital hasn't been updated yet.

pc7

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Yeah published today local paper. It's front cover with details inside. I've only seen the cover - landlord brothel horror- need to go home and buy paper edition, digital hasn't been updated yet.

Hopefully one of the nationals picks up on it, I’d be sending them an email of article.

1874

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Yeah published today local paper. It's front cover with details inside. I've only seen the cover - landlord brothel horror- need to go home and buy paper edition, digital hasn't been updated yet.

Please provide link when available,

I shouldn't be astounded, but how is there any right to a case if the person that signed the lease has vacated,

Thargor

Take a pic of the article for us if not online please OP.

Frank Grimes

I'm guessing this what the OP is talking about - http://www.echo.ie/news/article/apartment-used-as-a-brothel-alleges-a-horrified-landlord

antoinolachtnai

Have you a mortgage on this property?

murphaph

I hope the OP is ok. They haven't posted in a while.

hawkelady

I really feel for the op. I must admit that I found the story hard to swallow at times , with guards doing nothing etc but the op was truthful all along and it seems the guards were not really interested at all which is shocking. The guards saying there is no evidence of a brothel cause they didn't get a pimp is bs.

Who would be a bloody landlord these days !!
Hope you get sorted op .. sorry for having doubted your story too, I feel bad

The_Conductor

hawkelady wrote: »

I really feel for the op. I must admit that I found the story hard to swallow at times , with guards doing nothing etc but the op was truthful all along and it seems the guards were not really interested at all which is shocking. The guards saying there is no evidence of a brothel cause they didn't get a pimp is bs.

Who would be a bloody landlord these days !!
Hope you get sorted op .. sorry for having doubted your story too, I feel bad

The argument the Gardaí will use- is the ladies aren't there against their own free will, its not illegal to sell sex, it is illegal to pay for sex- and regardless of whether, or not, the OP (or the Management Company) have CCTV footage- the Gardaí have zero interest in pursuing this when they have far worse crimes to investigate (keep the crime stats that come under Clondalkin and Ronanstown in mind- and you can see why the local Gardaí are pushing limited resources elsewhere).

The Joker in all of this- is the RTB- whose deliberate policy of siding with the tenant at all costs- facilitates situations like this arising.

I'm aware of two more Dublin cases and one Galway case- very similar to the OP's ongoing at the moment- and in a similar vein- the landlord gets zero help.

Baby01032012

OP here

Many thanks for the posts, much appreciated. There hasn't been any change in circumstances. Not sure that's good or bad. The apartment remains boarded up. So at least these people can't use it for their prostitution. At the same time I have an apartment with no income since July at the same time paying LPT mngt fees etc.

My solicitor maintains I had the right to enter and secure. I still have no idea what grounds tenants have appealed RTB adjudication on. And RTB will not tell me when tribunal hearing might me. So I have to leave it empty for the foreseeable.
I'm off work this week so will try guards again. They refused to respond to my solicitor letter or record break in or take statement from me. GSOC had raised a few question in order to decide whether to investigate. However I haven't heard from them in 2 weeks.
Property regulator upheld that the letting agent employee was misrepresented as a negotiator but was in fact unlicensed trainee. However they were happy to report that this has been corrected on their web page and marketing material and thanked me for the postive outcome..their words. My solicitor is looking to see if there is a negligence case there.

Muahahaha

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Property regulator upheld that the letting agent employee was misrepresented as a negotiator but was in fact unlicensed trainee. However they were happy to report that this has been corrected on their web page and marketing material and thanked me for the postive outcome..their words. My solicitor is looking to see if there is a negligence case there.

I mentioned further up the thread that you might have a negligence case against the agent. With this new piece of information I would think now that you almost certainly do. As the agent will or should have insurance it sounds to me like a very good way to re-coup your losses here. If your own solicitor does not think so I would be seeking a second and even a third opinion.

Baby01032012

Muahahaha wrote: »

I mentioned further up the thread that you might have a negligence case against the agent. With this new piece of information I would think now that you almost certainly do. As the agent will or should have insurance it sounds to me like a very good way to re-coup your losses here. If your own solicitor does not think so I would be seeking a second and even a third opinion.

I hope so Muahahaha. He has sent papers to a barrister to advise whether there's enough there to be successful.

Baby01032012

Just an update

Recap: tenants secured my apartment through letting agent using false references, run it as a brothel, didn't pay rent since July 2017, guards raided twice, got them out only for them to break back in after I changed locks but didn't stay. RTB found in my favour but tenants appealed. I boarded up instead of changing locks again. Gardai washed their hands when I reported break in.

That was 2 months ago. Tribunal to hear tenants appeal next week. I have a Garda attending as witness. Tenants will not appear. They haven't picked up notification of the tribunal date. Also they are in court at exact same time that day bringing case against guards for recovery of their stuff taken at time of raid. They didn't turn up for first court hearing so Gardai will ask for case to be struck out if they don't appear. These people are obviously only interested in maximum disruption.

I expect not to be able to let apartment for another few months between tribunal outcome possible appeal etc.

My solicitor has had a barrister look to see if I have case for breach of duty of care against letting agent. I do and will now start proceedings against letting agent for damages.

My solitor wrote to Gardai about failure to investigate when I reported break in. Gardai are now conducting internal investigation. GSOC have also looked into this and have found an investigation is warranted.

emeldc

I'd have re-let that apartment ages ago. Let someone else chase you for a change.