Wales vs Ireland, World Cup Qualifer, kick-off 7.45, RTE 2 & Sky Sports

Billy86

So what happened to the lads who spent the Serbia game saying McClean has no place in the team and adds nothing to us?

Shane Duffy was a monster throughout and you'd be excused for wondering how Shay Given turned black at times with Randolph's reaction saves. I can excuse the flurry of silly fouls at the end because it looked like we were just absolutely out on our feet and had to do whatever we could to get things over the line; for all the (justified) talk of Bale being out it has to be remembered we did this without our best player and captain, without one of our most effective players and vice captain (and top scorer under MON) and without Shane Long who also causes a lot of trouble for defenses with his pace and physicality. Considering how sparse in talent we are compared to previous generations we've done very well to get this far, and if we can get through it would be an excellent achievement.

If we get Portugal we're all but out in my opinion, Italy we can beat but it would need a bit of a miracle. Switzerland and Croatia we'd be the underdogs against but we're strangely comfortable in that position. As much as the Dutch have slipped I would rather avoid them, and any of the others I'd give us a solid 50/50 chance or possibly better against.

Billy86

Rekop dog wrote: »

Nope. Have you watched Iceland? They take it to the extreme. Their average possession over the campaign is 10% less than us. Probably why they were that bit more successful too.

But hold on Rekop dog, according to quite a few we should be out there playing expansive, creative, attractive football like the Icelanders do... not this defensive, low possession stuff that Ireland play. :pac:

fryup

did ireland play borderline ..durty

for example: was Allen taken out on purpose?

fryup

fryup wrote: »

did ireland play borderline ..durty

Played a bit on the edge, but it was against Wales, a team well used to leaving their mark on opponents. They travelled to Dublin with the intent to dole it out, delighted to see them lose at their own game in their own home ground.

Neil Taylor, if he has a Twitter account I'd nearly join to read what he thinks about it all.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

fryup wrote: »

did ireland play borderline ..durty

for example: was Allen taken out on purpose?

yes he was

elefant

fryup wrote: »

did ireland play borderline ..durty

for example: was Allen taken out on purpose?

Liana Tight Gout wrote: »

yes he was

You think? It looked like he was concussed from his head hitting the ground. It wasn't any worse a collision than you'd see regularly in any match.

Rekop dog

It was the type of performance that you're delighted to see if you're a fan of the winning side, a bit heavy handed and lots of time wasting, but you'd be disgusted if you're on the receiving end and the losing side, but hey that's football.

adox

LiamoSail wrote: »

It didn't just work tonight though did it? It's worked on a various nights from the 80s to the present day for us.

Playing attractive football is all well and good when you've got the players. We don't have them though. Look at the Holland, they do attractive football better than we ever could but now that the calibre isn't there, either are they. If they can't do it with what they've got, what chance would we have?

Winning with an attractive style isn't an option for countries with as limited pool as us. We'll never be a Spain 08 or a Holland 88. A Greece 04 however, if we're going to dream, is the only style likely to ever get us anywhere

Im going to ignore the insults and petty jibes from others as they arent worth a response but appreciate the above reply.

My point wasnt that it has to be one or the other. We dont have to play attractive football but that doesnt mean we have to play what O Neill did last night and does play for the most part.

Ive no problem playing pragmatic football but what we get served up by O Neill and Trap before him(imo) is just a total lack of any trust in the players and pretty aimless in the main part. 11 men deep behind the ball inviting teams on and then hoof it clear with no clear plan for any sort of attack.

I read someone saying we have been doing it since Charltons days but that simply isnt true. Charlton didnt employ those tactics at all. They may have been basic and involved a lot of long balls but he had a definite plan and style. He didnt have his team sit deep and kick the ball aimlessly up the pitch. He played the high press, starting with the striker, not letting the opposition time on the ball at all. Sure he played the long ball game when in possession but there was a structure to it, to either try and hit the fron man(if it was Cascarino or Quinn) or play the channels(if it was the likes of Aldridge)

I was delighted we won last night and celebrated the goal like mad but I still think my opinion is valid and worth voicing about the tactics. Id equate o Neill and Van Gaals time at Utd being two different sides of the same coin. football played with fear. Total fear. Van Gaals Utd probably retained 60-70% possession in their games but yet it was a cowardly tactic from him, just like O Neill. He retained possession to try and stop the opposition scoring rather than trying to be constructive with no real idea how to create chances. O Neill is the other end of the spectrum but with the same mindset.

fryup

Rekop dog wrote: »

It was the type of performance that you're delighted to see if you're a fan of the winning side, a bit heavy handed and lots of time wasting, but you'd be disgusted if you're on the receiving end and the losing side, but hey that's football.

it wasn't a match for the purest thats for sure...there was a period in the 1st half it was vauxhall conference standard

citytillidie

Eh leave it to the Derry muckers to drag Ireland to the play offs, well in Duffy and McClean

Laois_Man

adox wrote: »

I read someone saying we have been doing it since Charltons days but that simply isnt true. Charlton didnt employ those tactics at all.

We played some great football under Mick McCarthy - very unlucky to only qualify for the one tournament....and even Staunton attempted good football (but maybe it's better left out as an example )

Mushy

elefant wrote: »

fryup wrote: »

did ireland play borderline ..durty

for example: was Allen taken out on purpose?

Liana Tight Gout wrote: »

yes he was

You think? It looked like he was concussed from his head hitting the ground. It wasn't any worse a collision than you'd see regularly in any match.

The collision happened as he had to stop suddenly too, McLean had nowhere to go. Not dirty at all, no more than Wales did or were willing to do themselves.

Billy86

adox wrote: »

I was delighted we won last night and celebrated the goal like mad but I still think my opinion is valid and worth voicing about the tactics. Id equate o Neill and Van Gaals time at Utd being two different sides of the same coin. football played with fear. Total fear. Van Gaals Utd probably retained 60-70% possession in their games but yet it was a cowardly tactic from him, just like O Neill. He retained possession to try and stop the opposition scoring rather than trying to be constructive with no real idea how to create chances. O Neill is the other end of the spectrum but with the same mindset.

To be fair now, if you're equating Ireland with Man Utd you're doing it wrong.

Billy86

citytillidie wrote: »

Eh leave it to the Derry muckers to drag Ireland to the play offs, well in Duffy and McClean

And MON too!

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

To be fair now, if you're equating Ireland with Man Utd you're doing it wrong.

Tbf Billy he's comparing managerial styles and I get what he's saying
Nothing really got to do with the teams they manage!

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

adox wrote: »

Im going to ignore the insults and petty jibes from others as they arent worth a response but appreciate the above reply.

My point wasnt that it has to be one or the other. We dont have to play attractive football but that doesnt mean we have to play what O Neill did last night and does play for the most part.

Ive no problem playing pragmatic football but what we get served up by O Neill and Trap before him(imo) is just a total lack of any trust in the players and pretty aimless in the main part. 11 men deep behind the ball inviting teams on and then hoof it clear with no clear plan for any sort of attack.

I read someone saying we have been doing it since Charltons days but that simply isnt true. Charlton didnt employ those tactics at all. They may have been basic and involved a lot of long balls but he had a definite plan and style. He didnt have his team sit deep and kick the ball aimlessly up the pitch. He played the high press, starting with the striker, not letting the opposition time on the ball at all. Sure he played the long ball game when in possession but there was a structure to it, to either try and hit the fron man(if it was Cascarino or Quinn) or play the channels(if it was the likes of Aldridge)

I was delighted we won last night and celebrated the goal like mad but I still think my opinion is valid and worth voicing about the tactics. Id equate o Neill and Van Gaals time at Utd being two different sides of the same coin. football played with fear. Total fear. Van Gaals Utd probably retained 60-70% possession in their games but yet it was a cowardly tactic from him, just like O Neill. He retained possession to try and stop the opposition scoring rather than trying to be constructive with no real idea how to create chances. O Neill is the other end of the spectrum but with the same mindset.

The goal last night came from a high press

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Tbf Billy he's comparing managerial styles and I get what he's saying
Nothing really got to do with the teams they manage!

There is though, you'd not manage Man Utd in the same fashion you do Ireland because the difference in ability relative to the opposition faced over a campaign is very large.

Rekop dog

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Tbf Billy he's comparing managerial styles and I get what he's saying
Nothing really got to do with the teams they manage!

It does hugely. What van gaal was doing with his team was inexcusable with the talent on show. What MON is doing with our lack of talent is perfectly understandable and actually by far the best approach. So it's a pretty ludicrous comparison.

Rekop dog

Rekop dog wrote: »

It does hugely. What van gaal was doing with his team was inexcusable with the talent on show. What MON is doing with our lack of talent is perfectly understandable and actually by far the best approach. So it's a pretty ludicrous comparison.

You obviously didn't read his post clearly or are failing to understand it

citytillidie

Billy86 wrote: »

And MON too!

He is not a Derry mucker he is a Derry sir

Derry mucker from city of Derry
Derry sir from county Derry

:pac:

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

There is though, you'd not manage Man Utd in the same fashion you do Ireland because the difference in ability relative to the opposition faced over a campaign is very large.

He's clearly stating two different styles on the opposite end of the spectrum. Both ultimately playing in fear of the opposition

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

He's clearly stating two different styles on the opposite end of the spectrum. Both ultimately playing in fear of the opposition

Except Ireland don't play in fear of the opposition - they play too conservatively at times for my liking, but there's a big difference between that and fear. You might as well claim Leicester or Villa played in fear during his time at either of them, when in truth they were playing very similar to Ireland now and overachieved as a result - that and Ireland under MON are in huge contrast to Man Utd under LVG.

Mantis Toboggan

I think a lot of the people giving out about the style of football have grown up watching club football mainly following some of the best clubs in the world who have some of the best players in the world. If things aren't going well drop another 100 mill in the summer and problem solved.

Unfortunately international football is completely different. We can only make do with the players we have. Martin O Neill doesn't have them 5 days a week all year to be working on strategies and formations. We have to play to our strengths which undoubtedly is a high energy physical, pressing game and solid no compromising defending. It might not be pretty to watch but the team punches above their weight.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Except Ireland don't play in fear of the opposition - they play too conservatively at times for my liking, but there's a big difference between that and fear. You might as well claim Leicester or Villa played in fear during his time at either of them, when in truth they were playing very similar to Ireland now and overachieved as a result - that and Ireland under MON are in huge contrast to Man Utd under LVG.

Nothing to do with individual players, I'm not suggesting that the players collectively hold any fear.

It's tactical.
MON fears his opponents and doesn't believe we have the tools to actually play progressive football. So he reverts to allowing the opposition have possession and then reverts his team tactically to playing long balls, knockdowns, and capitalizing on mistakes and set pieces.

I've made my point multiple times that last nights tactic worked this time around, defensively Wales were always at risk and showed there vulnerabilities when we actually did attack them.

But the same approach was used against teams we should be beating and clearly cost us points.

The Game against Georgia was easily one of the worst Irish performances of the last 5 years and in essence the approach to that game was the exact same as last night.

adox

Tyson Fury wrote: »

I think a lot of the people giving out about the style of football have grown up watching club football mainly following some of the best clubs in the world who have some of the best players in the world. If things aren't going well drop another 100 mill in the summer and problem solved.

Unfortunately international football is completely different. We can only make do with the players we have. Martin O Neill doesn't have them 5 days a week all year to be working on strategies and formations. We have to play to our strengths which undoubtedly is a high energy physical, pressing game and solid no compromising defending. It might not be pretty to watch but the team punches above their weight.

You couldnt be more wrong with me.

Tyson Fury

Tyson Fury wrote: »

I think a lot of the people giving out about the style of football have grown up watching club football mainly following some of the best clubs in the world who have some of the best players in the world. If things aren't going well drop another 100 mill in the summer and problem solved.

Unfortunately international football is completely different. We can only make do with the players we have. Martin O Neill doesn't have them 5 days a week all year to be working on strategies and formations. We have to play to our strengths which undoubtedly is a high energy physical, pressing game and solid no compromising defending. It might not be pretty to watch but the team punches above their weight.

No that's not what we are saying. You are not reading any points that are being made and addressing them appropriately. You normally never do.

Rekop dog

What's wrong with fearing the opposition? When they've better players than you you should fear them. It's a good starting point to realise this and then set up appropriately to deal with it. You're not going to achieve much by having an ego so big that you fail realise that you cant realistically outplay better teams than you consistently.

I've no problem with playing in fear if it's our best route to success, and it is. It's meant we're the only 4th seed to finish second in a group.

Iceland play in fear
The north play in fear
Greece won a euros playing in fear.

*Completely*different story Manchester United with all their stars playing in fear.

adox

Liana Tight Gout wrote: »

The goal last night came from a high press

Exactly but that was a rarity and not a tactic.

Rekop dog

Rekop dog wrote: »

What's wrong with fearing the opposition? When they've better players than you you should fear them. It's a good starting point to realise this and then set up appropriately to deal with it. You're not going to achieve much by having an ego so big that you fail realise that you cant realistically outplay better teams than you consistently.

I've no problem with playing in fear if it's our best route to success, and it is. It's meant we're the only 4th seed to finish second in a group.

Iceland play on fear
The north play in fear
Greece won a euros playing in fear.

*Completely*different story Manchester United with all their stars playing in fear.

Again you are not getting the valid points being made or are not reading them clearly.

Rekop dog

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Again you are not getting the valid points being made or are not reading them clearly.

I haven't seen you make one unfortunately Mick

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Nothing to do with individual players, I'm not suggesting that the players collectively hold any fear.

It's tactical.
MON fears his opponents and doesn't believe we have the tools to actually play progressive football. So he reverts to allowing the opposition have possession and then reverts his team tactically to playing long balls, knockdowns, and capitalizing on mistakes and set pieces.

I've made my point multiple times that last nights tactic worked this time around, defensively Wales were always at risk and showed there vulnerabilities when we actually did attack them.

But the same approach was used against teams we should be beating and clearly cost us points.

The Game against Georgia was easily one of the worst Irish performances of the last 5 years and in essence the approach to that game was the exact same as last night.

You ability to play progressive football has everything to do with player - just look at our game against Serbia.
Last night's tactics worked last night, have worked over the campaign as we've finished second, and worked in the last campaign too. They've been working for us for three years. They also worked for Aston Villa and Leicester when he was manager there, conservative tactics do not equal fear.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

You ability to play progressive football has everything to do with player - just look at our game against Serbia.
Last night's tactics worked last night, have worked over the campaign as we've finished second, and worked in the last campaign too. They've been working for us for three years. They also worked for Aston Villa and Leicester when he was manager there, conservative tactics do not equal fear.

It didn't work against Austria and Georgia where we dropped points where we should have won if the approach was right.

We are better than those two teams and have better players.

We could have won the group and avoided a play-off.

That's the reality of it.

Rekop dog

Also I know it's a discussion forum and all but arrogantly thinking you're more tactically astute than MON is lacking in serious self-awareness and cringe worthy in the extreme.

partyguinness

Rekop dog wrote: »

What's wrong with fearing the opposition? When they've better players than you you should fear them. It's a good starting point to realise this and then set up appropriately to deal with it. You're not going to achieve much by having an ego so big that you fail realise that you cant realistically outplay better teams than you consistently.

I've no problem with playing in fear if it's our best route to success, and it is. It's meant we're the only 4th seed to finish second in a group.

Iceland play in fear
The north play in fear
Greece won a euros playing in fear.

*Completely*different story Manchester United with all their stars playing in fear.

I think 'fear' is the wrong word. Fear is not the right word- they play with heart and discipline- not to be confused with fear.

You want to see fear? Watch England next summer.

The 'lesser' teams achieve success by playing to their strengths to compensate for their weaknesses. The play with a nothing to lose and play as underdogs. Look at how torturous Ireland are when they are the favourites against the Moldovias of the world?

If you have 11 decent players, a manager who knows exactly whats he wants, is able to get this across to the players and then players execute it to perfection then anything is possible. Now generally, this will only get you so far.

death1234567

Rekop dog wrote: »

Also I know it's a discussion forum and all but arrogantly thinking you're more tactically astute than MON is lacking in serious self-awareness and cringe worthy in the extreme.

A cabbage is more tactically astute than MON.

Rekop dog

Rekop dog wrote: »

I haven't seen you make one unfortunately Mick

Rekop dog wrote: »

Also I know it's a discussion forum and all but arrogantly thinking you're more tactically astute than MON is lacking in serious self-awareness and cringe worthy in the extreme.

Only person being arrogant it seems is you.

partyguinness

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Nothing to do with individual players, I'm not suggesting that the players collectively hold any fear.

It's tactical.
MON fears his opponents and doesn't believe we have the tools to actually play progressive football. So he reverts to allowing the opposition have possession and then reverts his team tactically to playing long balls, knockdowns, and capitalizing on mistakes and set pieces.
.

This is not correct.

Look for a second at the players Ireland have. Either playing in the bottom half of the Prem or in the Championship where every game is a scrap: Burnley, Newcastle, Brighton, AV, Derby, West Brom.

The majority of the players are in a relegation battle. Ireland are awful to watch lets be clear and beautiful football would be wonderful.

What do you expect? That they turn up for Ireland and start playing like Spain or that MON prevents them from playing expansive 'progressive' football? Glen Whelan or James McLean are basically Xavi in disguise?

Get real man.

johnpatrick81

M!Ck^ wrote: »

It didn't work against Austria and Georgia where we dropped points where we should have won if the approach was right.

We are better than those two teams and have better players.

We could have won the group and avoided a play-off.

That's the reality of it.

We're a better team than Austria? Really? See them steamroll their way to the Euros, being touted by many experts as dark horses to win the thing?!

They would have been one of the favourites for the group, but WE beat them.

We took 4 points off them, they got 1 off us. That's fantastic.

Georgia are a much trickier, more stubborn team than they're being given credit for.

We're not a better team than Austria though, you even suggesting that shows what a great job MON has done.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

This is not correct.

Look for a second at the players Ireland have. Either playing in the bottom half of the Prem or in the Championship where every game is a scrap: Burnley, Newcastle, Brighton, AV, Derby, West Brom.

The majority of the players are in a relegation battle. Ireland are awful to watch lets be clear and beautiful football would be wonderful.

What do you expect? That they turn up for Ireland and start playing like Spain or that MON prevents them from playing expansive 'progressive' football? Glen Whelan or James McLean are basically Xavi in disguise?

Get real man.

Better squad easily then what Georgia and Austria have available to them.

Yes we should be beating these teams.

You haven't read my posts fully. I never once suggested to play a progressive style in every game against every team.

There's a time an a place to play like he did last night.

partyguinness

death1234567 wrote: »

A cabbage is more tactically astute than MON.

So what does that make you? I am going out on a limb here and suggest that your footballing cv in not so impressive.

johnpatrick81

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

We're a better team than Austria? Really? See them steamroll their way to the Euros, being touted by many experts as dark horses to win the thing?!

They would have been one of the favourites for the group, but WE beat them.

We took 4 points off them, they got 1 off us. That's fantastic.

Georgia are a much trickier, more stubborn team than they're being given credit for.

We're not a better team than Austria though, you even suggesting that shows what a great job MON has done.

Yes we are a better team than Austria.

Rekop dog

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

We're a better team than Austria? Really? See them steamroll their way to the Euros, being touted by many experts as dark horses to win the thing?!

They would have been one of the favourites for the group, but WE beat them.

We took 4 points off them, they got 1 off us. That's fantastic.

Georgia are a much trickier, more stubborn team than they're being given credit for.

We're not a better team than Austria though, you even suggesting that shows what a great job MON has done.

A lot of people just have a lack of knowledge of the European game to suggest such nonsense. We'd kill to have Champions league players at the likes of Munich and Leipsig.

johnpatrick81

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Yes we are a better team than Austria.

Job done by MON so, what a man!

johnpatrick81

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

Job done by MON so, what a man!

He dropped points against Georgia and Austria where he shouldn't have due to archaic tactics.

He could have done better.

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

It didn't work against Austria and Georgia where we dropped points where we should have won if the approach was right.

We are better than those two teams and have better players.

We could have won the group and avoided a play-off.

That's the reality of it.

But it did work against Wales last night, Austria away, got us draws against Wales and Austria at home and Serbia away (while playing open football against them at home gave us our only loss of the campaign). It worked in the last campaign against Germany at home and away as well as the draws with Scotland and Poland.

Ironically we're only better than Austria because we're better managed, they have more talent available to them. As do Wales. As do Serbia. As did Germany. As did Poland. As did Scotland.

Also as an aside, Georgia in Tbilisi in the last few campaigns have beaten Scotland (twice) and Croatia, and have got draws from France, Bulgaria and Ukraine (twice) - even Spain only beat them with an 86th minute winner. We played poorly that game but they're a very tricky team in their home ground with a history of playing the spoiler card. We didn't let that spoil it though.

irelandrover

M!Ck^ wrote: »

He dropped points against Georgia and Austria where he shouldn't have due to archaic tactics.

He could have done better.

He picked up points against Wales and Serbia where he shouldnt due to tactics.

johnpatrick81

He's made you think we are a better team that one filled with top Bundesliga players and some Champions League top team players. Job done.

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

He picked up points against Wales and Serbia where he shouldnt due to tactics.

Correct, and I acknowledged that. Those tactics worked last night.

partyguinness

It makes the last results against Georgia and Serbia all the more annoying.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

But it did work against Wales last night, Austria away, got us draws against Wales and Austria at home and Serbia away (while playing open football against them at home gave us our only loss of the campaign). It worked in the last campaign against Germany at home and away as well as the draws with Scotland and Poland.

Ironically we're only better than Austria because we're better managed, they have more talent available to them. As do Wales. As do Serbia. As did Germany. As did Poland. As did Scotland.

Also as an aside, Georgia in Tbilisi in the last few campaigns have beaten Scotland (twice) and Croatia, and have got draws from France, Bulgaria and Ukraine (twice) - even Spain only beat them with an 86th minute winner. We played poorly that game but they're a very tricky team in their home ground with a history of playing the spoiler card. We didn't let that spoil it though.

I've said this in multiple threads that it worked last night.

If you lads are really convinced that Georgia should have 70% possession against Ireland. A team ranked 70 places below us in the FIFA rankings then that's your opinion but I don't agree with it.

MON was at fault for that result.