Wales vs Ireland, World Cup Qualifer, kick-off 7.45, RTE 2 & Sky Sports

Rekop dog

As fourth seeds with no player playing beyond midtable premiership level it's an utter failure we didn't have a 100% record in this group lads. Should have done better.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

It makes the last results against Georgia and Serbia all the more annoying.

Exactly.

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Better squad easily then what Georgia and Austria have available to them.

No, we absolutely do not have a better squad than Austria.

Rekop dog

Rekop dog wrote: »

As fourth seeds with no player playing beyond midtable premiership level it's an utter failure we didn't have a 100% record in this group lads. Should have done better.

A win against Georgia instead of a draw and we could have topped the group without needing a 100% record for a start.

Bridge93

M!Ck^ wrote: »

A win against Georgia instead of a draw and we could have topped the group without needing a 100% record for a start.

Unless we beat them 7-1 we'd still be second

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

A win against Georgia instead of a draw and we could have topped the group without needing a 100% record for a start.

And if we had not been the first team to beat Wales at home in four years last night, the Georgia result wouldn't have mattered. Likewise if we hadn't beaten Austria in Vienna.

Bridge93

Bridge93 wrote: »

Unless we beat them 7-1 we'd still be second

I'm not even taking into account other results.
And any other games.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

And if we had not been the first team to beat Wales at home in four years last night, the Georgia result wouldn't have mattered. Likewise if we hadn't beaten Austria in Vienna.

Correct.

But ultimately we still dropped points against Georgia where we shouldn't have.

The approach was wrong against them and was one of the worst performances by an Irish team in years and boiled down to the managers approach.

We made them look like Barcalona with the amount of possession they retained and were lucky to even get out with a draw.

Bridge93

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I'm not even taking into account other results.
And any other games.

We should've lost comfortably in Belgrade which would've put us 3 behind Serbia. That one point gain given (and 3 point swing) Serbia turned out to be our nearest competitor was as important and the 4 lost to two teams irrelevant in the final shake up. It works both ways.

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I've said this in multiple threads that it worked last night.

If you lads are really convinced that Georgia should have 70% possession against Ireland. A team ranked 70 places below us in the FIFA rankings then that's your opinion but I don't agree with it.

MON was at fault for that result.

Mick, you are literally responding to a post where I said the Georgia performance was poor, so not sure why you're using that straw man.

Now who was at fault for Scotland's two losses in Tbilisi? Who was at fault for Croatia's loss there? Who was at fault for Ukraine's two draws there? Bulgaria's? France's? Who was at fault for Spain being about 4-5 minutes away from failing to win there? Or are we going to pretend that Georgia don't have a history of being very difficult to beat in their home ground?

briany

https://twitter.com/cian__griffin/status/917504838849695744

'kin right.

Rekop dog

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Correct.

But ultimately we still dropped points against Georgia where we shouldn't have.

The approach was wrong against them and was one of the worst performances by an Irish team in years and boiled down to the managers approach.

We made them look like Barcalona with the amount of possession they retained and were lucky to even get out with a draw.

We gained far more points were we shouldn't have than the two we lost against Georgia.

And they outplayed Serbia for much of last night and looked great but are the perfect example of what happens to a side who try to play too expansive without having the real talent

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Mick, you are literally responding to a post where I said the Georgia performance was poor, so not sure why you're using that straw man.

Now who was at fault for Scotland's two losses in Tbilisi? Who was at fault for Croatia's loss there? Who was at fault for Ukraine's two draws there? Bulgaria's? France's? Who was at fault for Spain being about 4-5 minutes away from failing to win there? Or are we going to pretend that Georgia don't have a history of being very difficult to beat in their home ground?

He used the same tactic against Georgia.
And he shouldn't have.
My opinion can't be that hard to understand Billy!
Anyway this going nowhere as it's clearly an agree to disagree situation.

Rekop dog

Rekop dog wrote: »

We gained far more points were we shouldn't have than the two we lost against Georgia.

And they outplayed Serbia for much of last night and looked great but are the perfect example of what happens to a side who try to play too expansive without having the real talent

I don't agree with any of this post. But am not going to continue to repeat my reasons why.

TheCitizen

Billy86 wrote: »

But it did work against Wales last night, Austria away, got us draws against Wales and Austria at home and Serbia away (while playing open football against them at home gave us our only loss of the campaign). It worked in the last campaign against Germany at home and away as well as the draws with Scotland and Poland.

Ironically we're only better than Austria because we're better managed, they have more talent available to them. As do Wales. As do Serbia. As did Germany. As did Poland. As did Scotland.

Also as an aside, Georgia in Tbilisi in the last few campaigns have beaten Scotland (twice) and Croatia, and have got draws from France, Bulgaria and Ukraine (twice) - even Spain only beat them with an 86th minute winner. We played poorly that game but they're a very tricky team in their home ground with a history of playing the spoiler card. We didn't let that spoil it though.

I'm not certain that's the reason why we lost to Serbia. I think we were slightly unlucky and should definitely have got a penalty. The problem with the draw and poor performance in Tblisi was that it put pressure on us in the next game v Serbia and we didn't play with the composure at home to Serbia that we did last night for example.

I'm not complaining though, a play off spot in a Group as tight as that is a good achievement. I think anyone still complaining are just part of that hardcore anti MON lot on here that never wanted him as manager in the first place. He'll never win them over. They don't matter, they are totally deluded and uneducated on what is required in International football.

If MON can get us to Russia, the shackles can come off and the whole country will be behind him again with the deluded lot silenced.

Rekop dog

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I don't agree with any of this post. But am not going to continue to repeat my reasons why.

Well it's hard to argue with delusion Mick. You're discrediting him for losing 2 points against the worse lower ranked team without crediting for gaining far more against the better/ higher ranked ones.

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

He used the same tactic against Georgia.
And he shouldn't have.
My opinion can't be that hard to understand Billy!
Anyway this going nowhere as it's clearly an agree to disagree situation.

Yes, like I said we had a poor game against Georgia and I was unhappy with how we set out in the game. Are you still going to be stressing over our game in Georgia if we win the playoff? If we do so and then get through our group?

But the good has far out weighed the bad with MON's approach as we've finished above more talented teams than us in both campaigns he has been in charge for and depending on the playoff may wind up qualifying for both (as opposed to qualifying for one of the previous five competitions with considerably more talented teams).

Rekop dog

Rekop dog wrote: »

Well it's hard to argue with delusion Mick. You're discrediting him for losing 2 points against the worse lower ranked team without crediting for gaining far more against the better/ higher ranked ones.

Your arrogance continues.
But you are entitled to your opinion. If you believe I'm deluded in thinking that we should have approached a game against Georgia in a positive tactical manner then that's fine.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Yes, like I said we had a poor game against Georgia and I was unhappy with how we set out in the game. Are you still going to be stressing over our game in Georgia if we win the playoff? If we do so and then get through our group?

But the good has far out weighed the bad with MON's approach as we've finished above more talented teams than us in both campaigns he has been in charge for and depending on the playoff may wind up qualifying for both (as opposed to qualifying for one of the previous five competitions with considerably more talented teams).

I won't know nor will I share an opinion until we qualify or don't qualify how costly those dropped points really are.

Posts like "Deluded" and "MON haters" is just lazy posting.
Posters are entitled to challenge MON and call him out where he's gotten it wrong and when he's gotten it right.

Rekop dog

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I won't know nor will I share an opinion until we qualify or don't qualify how costly those dropped points really are.

Posts like "Deluded" and "MON haters" is just lazy posting.
Posters are entitled to challenge MON and call him out where he's gotten it wrong and when he's gotten it right.

You're making baffling blanket statements like we've a better squad than Austria with zero justification and then not expecting to be called deluded?

Be better.

M!Ck^

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Yes we are a better team than Austria.

Rekop dog wrote: »

You're making baffling blanket statements like we've a better squad than Austria with zero justification and then not expecting to be called deluded?

Be better.

http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association=aut/men/index.html

Mantis Toboggan

Always amazes me how delusional some Irish fans can be.

Billy86

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I won't know nor will I share an opinion until we qualify or don't qualify how costly those dropped points really are.

Posts like "Deluded" and "MON haters" is just lazy posting.
Posters are entitled to challenge MON and call him out where he's gotten it wrong and when he's gotten it right.

I'll be honest though, the insistence on continuously wanting to just bring up the Georgia game over and over does seem to have a motive in that we didn't play it last night, it wasn't the game we played before that, or even the one before that again. Had we failed to win last night I do have a suspicion you'd be far more eager to talk about the game in Wales than the game in Georgia. We dropped two points in a place where many teams as good if not better than us have dropped two or even three points in recent years, the performance was very poor but in terms of not getting the three points it's not like dropping points to Lichtenstein.

Before this campaign we had not beaten a team ranked higher than us away from home (competitively at least) in just shy of 50 years if I recall. Now we've beaten two in the last two years, both of which have considerably more talented squads playing at a higher club level. That's 4-6 points gained which more than offsets the 2 dropped against Georgia, if we get the win against Georgia but fail to win either of those two we are not even in a playoff place.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

I'll be honest though, the insistence on continuously wanting to just bring up the Georgia game over and over does seem to have a motive in that we didn't play it last night, it wasn't the game we played before that, or even the one before that again. Had we failed to win last night I do have a suspicion you'd be far more eager to talk about the game in Wales than the game in Georgia. We dropped two points in a place where many teams as good if not better than us have dropped two or even three points in recent years, the performance was very poor but in terms of not getting the three points it's not like dropping points to Lichtenstein.

Before this campaign we had not beaten a team ranked higher than us away from home (competitively at least) in just shy of 50 years if I recall. Now we've beaten two in the last two years, both of which have considerably more talented squads playing at a higher club level. That's 4-6 points gained which more than offsets the 2 dropped against Georgia, if we get the win against Georgia but fail to win either of those two we are not even in a playoff place.

That's fair enough, we can leave it at that.
Your posting is always objective and never attempts to insult posters so thanks for that!

LuckyLloyd

In all the times we've played Georgia over the years I've always felt they played nice football. Always a couple of technically able players and they aim to get it down and pass it. And then we beat them is the usual way of it.

We are awful to watch in that sense. We've historically made the game a fight with variations on the same theme. Under McCarthy we had a lovely mix of players and a World Class lynchpin and we were able to be more pragmatic as a result. Under Staunton we were naive and paid the price. Under Charlton, Kerr, Trapp and O'Neill it has been a familiar formula and the results have varied on the basis of opposition, luck and the capability of our squads at the time to create / capitalize on infrequent moments of quality.

Where does skill start and determination / physicality end though? There are shades of grey. It takes a type of skill / quality to defend like we did last night on such limited possession. Our goal had a quality cross, stepover and finish; but there is no goal if it isn't for the physical determination to chase the keeper's throw down and find the legs to sprint up the wing. And it helps that there's then three Irish lads bursting into the box for the ball across. It's not binary, one or the other.

The only thing that everyone agrees on is the mental and physical make up of the squad as a group. They ****ing want it. They run hard, they throw their bodies at everything, they play with great togetherness and don't get down on each other when things are tough. Given those are the obvious qualities that have defined Irish teams for three decades irrespective of the vagaries of form / suspension / injury / availability it seems prudent to construct your tactical approach around them.

In that context, the signature performances of the Trapp / O'Neill regimes that people argue as proof that we can play a more expansive way; I'd instead suggest them as the extensions of being competitive consistently via our rugged foundational approach. The objective is always to run and to not get beat and occasionally quality will be there on the day when the mentality is good and everyone on it. But you have to get to those points in the most expedient fashion possible.

We dragged Wales into a battle last night, gave them a good kicking and snuffed the life out of it as a contest once we'd got our goal. There's far more to that in terms of tactics and organisation than some are willing to let on. And it's far more beautiful than you might suppose also.

Shanotheslayer

M!Ck^ wrote: »

http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association=aut/men/index.html

Tbf, everybody knows those rankings are absolutely toxic.

Poland are better than France/Spain are they?

wotzgoingon

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Tbf, everybody knows those rankings are absolutely toxic.

Poland are better than France/Spain are they?

Sure look where Wales are. Above England, Mexico, Italy.

citytillidie

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Tbf, everybody knows those rankings are absolutely toxic.

Poland are better than France/Spain are they?

With the new UEFA nations league there is going to be a big change in those rankings as teams like Poland, Norway and Switzerland will have to play games now where they avoided playing friendlies and gave their rankings a boost

irishman86

LiamoSail wrote: »

It didn't just work tonight though did it? It's worked on a various nights from the 80s to the present day for us.

Playing attractive football is all well and good when you've got the players. We don't have them though. Look at the Holland, they do attractive football better than we ever could but now that the calibre isn't there, either are they. If they can't do it with what they've got, what chance would we have?

Winning with an attractive style isn't an option for countries with as limited pool as us. We'll never be a Spain 08 or a Holland 88. A Greece 04 however, if we're going to dream, is the only style likely to ever get us anywhere

I agree with everything you say bar the talent in Holland, granted its not 88 or Ajax CL days
The problem in Holland is more the jobs for the boys attitude
When you see a guy like Blind on the touchline have to seriously question those in charge

SlickRic

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Nothing to do with individual players, I'm not suggesting that the players collectively hold any fear.

It's tactical.
MON fears his opponents and doesn't believe we have the tools to actually play progressive football. So he reverts to allowing the opposition have possession and then reverts his team tactically to playing long balls, knockdowns, and capitalizing on mistakes and set pieces.

I've made my point multiple times that last nights tactic worked this time around, defensively Wales were always at risk and showed there vulnerabilities when we actually did attack them.

But the same approach was used against teams we should be beating and clearly cost us points.

The Game against Georgia was easily one of the worst Irish performances of the last 5 years and in essence the approach to that game was the exact same as last night.

spot on Mick. this is pretty much exactly what I was thinking, reflecting on the game this morning.

this is just going to be the pattern under MON. we're all going to want to throttle him when we play the likes of Moldova, Georgia, and any of the 'lesser' countries. there is no flexibility in our tactics to allow the team to express itself. the extent of the flexibility is throwing Wes in, because we know he can keep the ball and pick a pass.

but i've no doubt we will always show up in the big games. we actually shouldn't be surprised by last night's performance anymore. it's the rule, rather than the exception.

Idbatterim

I have to say ward is improved so much, duffy was fantastic last night, cyrus christie I am fond of, but with coleman back we have a very solid defence and keeper. we actually now have good options in midfield, myler I am very impressed with.

there are some things I didnt get yesterday, not taking off Daryl Murphy ten or fifteen minutes earlier, he looked knackered to me and couldnt track back to help defend or close down high up the pitch. Anyone with legs at that stage would have been a massive improvement.

The constant hoofing it out, if may have worked on a day wales were off the pace and dont have the quality of the likes of germany or spain whoever, but serious finishers etc, will make us pay...

I remember when we won against germany last year, the players were unbelievable in maintaining possession at the end and running the clock down, running it into the corner etc...

also in the dying moments, I really thought Myler could round the keeper and score, never mind get a yellow card. Although in fairness to him ,we was probably knackered and I hear he doesnt have the most pace...

Idbatterim

Nothing to do with individual players, I'm not suggesting that the players collectively hold any fear.

It's tactical.
MON fears his opponents and doesn't believe we have the tools to actually play progressive football. So he reverts to allowing the opposition have possession and then reverts his team tactically to playing long balls, knockdowns, and capitalizing on mistakes and set pieces.

I've made my point multiple times that last nights tactic worked this time around, defensively Wales were always at risk and showed there vulnerabilities when we actually did attack them.

But the same approach was used against teams we should be beating and clearly cost us points.

The Game against Georgia was easily one of the worst Irish performances of the last 5 years and in essence the approach to that game was the exact same as last night.

I read a great response earlier in relation to this. Is this why playing hoolihan makes absoulte sense, because he does show for it and has great distribution and vision? So the players dont always go route one all of the time. Maybe he is the player we should be playing against "lesser" teams and leave yesterdays line up to the more evenly matched or "superior" teams... ?

Rezident

Just remembered how happy I am for Robbie Savage.

Rezident

More good news for Ireland, Robbie Brady might be out of the play-offs:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41573539

citytillidie

One last thing to say, Eamonn Dunphy can feck off with his so called Derry joke. RTÉ seem to be intent on upsetting the Norther. Part of the Island

wotzgoingon

citytillidie wrote: »

One last thing to say, Eamonn Dunphy can feck off with his so called Derry joke. RTÉ seem to be intent on upsetting the Norther. Part of the Island

What was the joke?

TheCitizen

Rezident wrote: »

More good news for Ireland, Robbie Brady might be out of the play-offs:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41573539

I fail to see how you'd describe that as good news even if he hasn't been at his best lately? There were some posters saying the same about McClean before the Wales match and he turned out to be the match winner. You see some very odd comments on here at times. Do people just type stuff without thinking?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

Patww79 wrote: »

It was class

To be quite honest, **** them.

A rather bizarre attitude tbh.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

bennyl10

citytillidie wrote: »

One last thing to say, Eamonn Dunphy can feck off with his so called Derry joke. RTÉ seem to be intent on upsetting the Norther. Part of the Island

It’s iffense for the absolute sake of it, the map thing was a nothing that the usual Suspects attempted to blow out of proportion, this is the exact same..

It was a joke, nothing more, just a joke.. anyone offended needs to take along hard look..

We’ve seperate coubtries on this island, it’s a fact..

rgace

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was class

To be quite honest, **** them.[/quote]

Dunphy is the type of spoofer who would burst into tears on the Late Late Show talking about 1916 if some politician he didn't like had made the same comment.

I really don't know why you participate in these threads.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

I read a great response earlier in relation to this. Is this why playing hoolihan makes absoulte sense, because he does show for it and has great distribution and vision? So the players dont always go route one all of the time. Maybe he is the player we should be playing against "lesser" teams and leave yesterdays line up to the more evenly matched or "superior" teams... ?

I think I've said about 10 times now that the approach last night just about worked and credited MON for it.
And yes Hoolahan wasn't playing.

But he also wasn't playing against Georgia. Where we dropped points and were dominated by a team ranked about 70 places below us and one of the reasons is because he didn't play.

But it's not just about having Hoolahan on the pitch.
If you keeper is instructed to hoof the ball and not distribute the ball to his defenders then that is clearly directive from the manager.

It's just bypassing midfield, the sole purpose of him setting up in that way is hope they collect off a knockdown from a hoof from the keeper and also to provide as much cover for the back four as possible.
He doesn't wan't them to play constructively and pass it from the back to midfield and allow for creation of openings.
He doesn't have to play this way near every single game.

There were even signs of it against Moldova for christ sake.

TheCitizen

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fck who? Duffy and McClean and maybe Martin O'Neill?, that's who the joke was aimed at

The joke was harmless btw, but I don't get your 'fck them' attitude though. Perhaps you'd like to explain yourself?

citytillidie

wotzgoingon wrote: »

What was the joke?

Said where would Ireland be with out Derry but used the silent London in front of it knowing it would cause offence to those in the north who support Ireland

circadian

citytillidie wrote: »

Said where would Ireland be with out Derry but used the silent London in front of it knowing it would cause offence to those in the north who support Ireland

I just rolled me eyes. Dunphy saying something to annoy people thinking it's funny shocker. Ignore him.

Hammer Archer

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What? Dunphy's "joke" would appeal to exactly that type of person you described. It puts down the likes of McClean who see themselves as Irish, not from the UK.
Doesn't really bother me but can see how someone from Derry would be a bit miffed.

Mushy

citytillidie wrote: »

wotzgoingon wrote: »

What was the joke?

Said where would Ireland be with out Derry but used the silent London in front of it knowing it would cause offence to those in the north who support Ireland

In fairness he said "where would he be without Derry" first, before jokingly saying Londonderry. Nothing worth getting bothered about.

circadian

Patww79 wrote: »

This whole 'hands across the island' shíte gets on my wick. Of course I'd rather see them lose and annoyed, especially when you consider most of their support would like to see us and everyone belonging to us have our throats cut.

See who lose? What on earth are you talking about? NI fans? I have loads of friends who are NI fans and I doubt they'd like to see anything like that. In fact when we were talking about playoff spots they dont want to meet the Republic because they feared they'd get beat. Strangely enough I feel the same about us getting them in the draw.

As with all things, it only takes a small amount of people to ruin it for everyone else.