Upgrade to 11 Speed

Keeks

Ok So I am looking to upgrade my Shimano 9 Speed to 11 speed....I am going to try and keep it Shimano again.
What I am looking for are the pitfalls in doing this so I don't make (too many) mistakes. I am not necessarily looking to do this on the cheap, but more looking to see what the best options are and not spend all my money in one go...otherwise a new bike would be the best option.

Now I realise that I will have to do a large amount component upgrades at once, but the one thing I possible don't need to upgrade right now is the brakes.
With a little bit of fiddling and adjusting, then it should be possible to make them work. After all, it relay only depends on how hard you pull the levers to make them work...correct?

After that, then I will need basically everything else, (Shifters, Crankset, front & rear Derailleur, Cassesste, Chain and cables). Am I missing anything from the the bare basics that need to be changed?

The questions I have are more around the Bottom Bracket and if I can reuse the old one, or should I replace it.
I need to check what BB i have already on the bike but I think it is a Shimano BC1 37 x 24.
Firstly, is it a good idea to replace this also even though I have had no trouble with it, and secondly how can I make sure it is compatibility with the new crankset if I don't need to replace it? Essentially I am swapping once Shimano Crank for another.....

Then moving onto the wheels....and freehub.
Now this is more of a curiosity than something i am likely to do, as I have a wheel which is 11 speed compatible but I also haev a wheel whch is only 10 Speed with a Shimano FH-3500

Now I know people are going to say shout UPGRADE the wheels also (in time)...i know that but like i said I am just curious as to what is required to upgrade this wheel....can the Freehub mechanism be replaced or does it need a whole new freehub body and essentially the wheel begin rebuilt?

07Lapierre

To upgrade from 9sp to 11sp you will need:

New r/h 11sp shifter
New 11sp cassette
New 11sp chain
( assuming your rear wheel is 11sp compatible)

Everything else is optional.

thekooman

07Lapierre wrote: »

To upgrade from 9sp to 11sp you will need:

New r/h 11sp shifter
New 11sp cassette
New 11sp chain
( assuming your rear wheel is 11sp compatible)

Everything else is optional.

and 11 speed LH shifter and 11 speed Front derailleur as well to handle the new wider cassette at the back?

07Lapierre

thekooman wrote: »

and 11 speed LH shifter and 11 speed Front derailleur as well to handle the new wider cassette at the back?

No they should be ok. There's enough adjustment available on the limit screws to allow for the extra movement.

Ideally the OP should get a complete new groupset (to keep everything uniform), but it depends on how much you want to spend.

thekooman

07Lapierre wrote: »

No they should be ok. There's enough adjustment available on the limit screws to allow for the extra movement.

Ideally the OP should get a complete new groupset (to keep everything uniform), but it depends on how much you want to spend.

talking 372 on CRC + for full 11speed 105.

07Lapierre

thekooman wrote: »

talking 372 on CRC + for full 11speed 105.

Can't go wrong with that!

magicbastarder

yeah, i was wondering if (buying new) you'd be as well off going for the economy of scale of buying the groupset rather than buying the different pieces individually.

would an 11 speed chain be OK on a chainset originally designed for 9 speed?

Fratton Fred

thekooman wrote: »

talking 372 on CRC + for full 11speed 105.

until you try and buy it and it suddenly becomes €438

Wishbone Ash

07Lapierre wrote: »

.....Ideally the OP should get a complete new groupset bike....

FYP

Keep the 9 speed as a trainer/beater/commuter.

MojoMaker

Any need to change the rear derailleur or will correctly indexing the new 11s RH shifter work ok with the old 5600 RD?

velo.2010

I think Lapierre may have forgetting the rear derailleur in his list. The minimum would be...
RH shifter.
RD
Chain
Cassette.

You will get away with the current LH shifter if you don't mind how it looks on the bike.

I upgraded from 10 to 11 speed and am currently running the 10 speed FD with no problems (albeit with an 11 speed LH shifter). Actually, it functions even better than the full 11 speed FD set up on my other bike. Also, I had no issues running a 10 speed crankset with the new chain. However, I did pick up a second hand 11 speed crank to match up the components.

At the end of the day it will come down to how the different components will look on the bike... maybe you won't mind. Perhaps purchasing a full groupset at a good price, and flogging what you currently have, may be a more economically sound decision.

07Lapierre

velo.2010 wrote: »

I think Lapierre may have forgetting the rear derailleur in his list. The minimum would be...
RH shifter.
RD
Chain
Cassette.

You will get away with the current LH shifter if you don't mind how it looks on the bike.

I upgraded from 10 to 11 speed and am currently running the 10 speed FD with no problems (albeit with an 11 speed LH shifter). Actually, it functions even better than the full 11 speed FD set up on my other bike. Also, I had no issues running a 10 speed crankset with the new chain. However, I did pick up a second hand 11 speed crank to match up the components.

At the end of the day it will come down to how the different components will look on the bike... maybe you won't mind. Perhaps purchasing a full groupset at a good price, and flogging what you currently have, may be a more economically sound decision.

No didn't forget... again I think the limit screws on the rd will facilitate the extra movement.

triggermortis

Keeks wrote: »

The questions I have are more around the Bottom Bracket and if I can reuse the old one, or should I replace it.
I need to check what BB i have already on the bike but I think it is a Shimano BC1 37 x 24.
Firstly, is it a good idea to replace this also even though I have had no trouble with it, and secondly how can I make sure it is compatibility with the new crankset if I don't need to replace it? Essentially I am swapping once Shimano Crank for another.....

This is a question I wouldn't mind an answer to either.. I was thinking of upgrading to a 105 groupset (from a FSA/Tiagra/Sora mix), but I'm not sure about the BB - how do I find out if it fits my bike. If I got a groupset I could just see if the crank fit with the original BB, but how would I identify the correct one if I needed to change it?

07Lapierre

triggermortis wrote: »

This is a question I wouldn't mind an answer to either.. I was thinking of upgrading to a 105 groupset (from a FSA/Tiagra/Sora mix), but I'm not sure about the BB - how do I find out if it fits my bike. If I got a groupset I could just see if the crank fit with the original BB, but how would I identify the correct one if I needed to change it?

It's probably a hollowtech BB, but take a photo of it and post it here and we'll tell you.

triggermortis

07Lapierre wrote: »

It's probably a hollowtech BB, but take a photo of it and post it here and we'll tell you.

I'll do that once I'm done painting it. Cheers

07Lapierre

triggermortis wrote: »

I'll do that once I'm done painting it. Cheers

https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjPwpy44ubWAhWVHhsKHYQjAm8YABABGgJ3bA&ohost=www.google.ie&cid=CAESQOD2nXk2pywEXFsfD_pLbL2detJGUqtIwgGYe9OAh0RXpJ_kw2kBI8oYV6-GYTU_A2Z3m5Ra098E5KZ7VfZV9MA&sig=AOD64_2L3-SZ8H7MrDQBhuZMzVT0o4V0WQ&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwjH4Je44ubWAhXB1hoKHfIiB7UQwg8IJg&adurl=

mr spuckler

slight tangent, wiggle and CRC down to about €570 for Ultegra 6800 groupset, had been over the €600 mark for a long time. thoughts on value / whether it's likely to come down much more with the R8000 now available for only €160 more?

velo.2010

07Lapierre wrote: »

No didn't forget... again I think the limit screws on the rd will facilitate the extra movement.

Apparently, the pull ratio's all changed when Shimano went 11 speed - the same with the new Tiagra 4700. Older Shimano MTB 9 speed mechs could be used with 10 speed road shifters but again that changed with the new cable pull ratio's.

Shimano road bike derailleur compatibility

• All 11-speed Shimano road components are inter-compatible — you could for example use a Dura-Ace 9000 derailleur with a pair of 105 5800 shifters
• All 10-speed road components (except Tiagra 4700, see below) are inter-compatible — you could for example use an old Ultegra 6600 derailleur with old, 105 5700 shifters
• Current 9-speed road components are backwards compatible with older 9-speed road and mountain bike components, excluding the aforementioned exception

The only exception to the above rules is Tiagra 4700 (and the associated RS405 hydraulic shifters) which uses the same cable pull ratio as current generation, 11 speed road kit. This means you could for example use an 11 speed derailleur with 10 speed, 4700 shifters

I'm sure the 9 speed FD and LH shifter will still work - that's just a case of adjusting the FD for the 11 speed chain. The brakes would still work but the pull ratios would affect performance. The 9 speed RD won't work because the parallelogram can't move the requisite distance with each click because of the pull ratio difference.

07Lapierre

velo.2010 wrote: »

Apparently, the pull ratio's all changed when Shimano went 11 speed - the same with the new Tiagra 4700. Older Shimano MTB 9 speed mechs could be used with 10 speed road shifters but again that changed with the new cable pull ratio's.

Shimano road bike derailleur compatibility

• All 11-speed Shimano road components are inter-compatible — you could for example use a Dura-Ace 9000 derailleur with a pair of 105 5800 shifters
• All 10-speed road components (except Tiagra 4700, see below) are inter-compatible — you could for example use an old Ultegra 6600 derailleur with old, 105 5700 shifters
• Current 9-speed road components are backwards compatible with older 9-speed road and mountain bike components, excluding the aforementioned exception

The only exception to the above rules is Tiagra 4700 (and the associated RS405 hydraulic shifters) which uses the same cable pull ratio as current generation, 11 speed road kit. This means you could for example use an 11 speed derailleur with 10 speed, 4700 shifters

I'm sure the 9 speed FD and LH shifter will still work - that's just a case of adjusting the FD for the 11 speed chain. The brakes would still work but the pull ratios would affect performance. The 9 speed RD won't work because the parallelogram can't move the requisite distance with each click because of the pull ratio difference.

I assume you got that info off Shimano?

I have a bike with Campagnolo 11 speed. I needed a new chain, so i fitted a shimano chain as i'm too tight to spend over €100 for a Campag chain breaker. The Shimano chain works fine. If you search the Campag website i doubt they will recommend mixing components. (especially components from other manufacturers)

I also have Fast forward wheels that needed new bearings in the freehub. I emailed fastforward and asked for details on how to do this. They replied to me and said they didn't recommend changing the bearings. instead they advised replacing the complete freehub (cost €75+€25postage). I bought new bearings and replaced them myself anyway at a total cost of €12.

My point is...don't believe everything the manufactures tell you. Besides, pull ratios are determined by the shifters, not the derailleurs.

Euppy

07Lapierre wrote: »

I assume you got that info off Shimano?

I have a bike with Campagnolo 11 speed. I needed a new chain, so i fitted a shimano chain as i'm too tight to spend over €100 for a Campag chain breaker. The Shimano chain works fine. If you search the Campag website i doubt they will recommend mixing components. (especially components from other manufacturers)

I also have Fast forward wheels that needed new bearings in the freehub. I emailed fastforward and asked for details on how to do this. They replied to me and said they didn't recommend changing the bearings. instead they advised replacing the complete freehub (cost €75+€25postage). I bought new bearings and replaced them myself anyway at a total cost of €12.

My point is...don't believe everything the manufactures tell you. Besides, pull ratios are determined by the shifters, not the derailleurs.

Velo is correct.

What he is referring to is the design of the derailleur that impacts on the lateral movement for a given length of cable pull. It depends on the hinge point and where the cable is clamped. It had been the same up until 10 speed but has changed since.

I was cynical at the start as they removed backward compatibility to force upgrades but it made sense when I thought about it due to the increased number of cogs.

These derailleur ratios combined with different cable pull ratios from the shifters can make some interesting combinations. Look up shimergo to read more.

07Lapierre

Euppy wrote: »

Velo is correct.

What he is referring to is the design of the derailleur that impacts on the lateral movement for a given length of cable pull. It depends on the hinge point and where the cable is clamped. It had been the same up until 10 speed but has changed since.

I was cynical at the start as they removed backward compatibility to force upgrades but it made sense when I thought about it due to the increased number of cogs.

These derailleur ratios combined with different cable pull ratios from the shifters can make some interesting combinations. Look up shimergo to read more.

Apologies, i wasn't implying that velo was wrong...i was just pointing out that while not recommended, mixing components is possible. Has anyone actually used a 9speed RD with an 11speed cassette?