Rest is the new sport...

Annie get your Run

Just saw this on my news feed this morning, it certainly struck a cord with me and is going on my Christmas list. I was especially interested in the 4 different types of fatigue.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/fitness/the-new-way-to-get-fitter-and-stronger-rest-1.3238193

There's always lots of talk on the logs here about rest days and running streaks etc. The book seems to look at the fact that we all have stress and then training is another stress on top of that and how to manage it all.

I thought it might be of interest here. How do you manage your training stress? More rest days? Do we properly recognise and acknowledge when we need to take a rest or do we keep going regardless 'cause the plan says'. Do marathon runners experience more training stress than sprint or middle distance runners?

BeepBeep67

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Just saw this on my news feed this morning, it certainly struck a cord with me and is going on my Christmas list. I was especially interested in the 4 different types of fatigue.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/fitness/the-new-way-to-get-fitter-and-stronger-rest-1.3238193

There's always lots of talk on the logs here about rest days and running streaks etc. The book seems to look at the fact that we all have stress and then training is another stress on top of that and how to manage it all.

I thought it might be of interest here. How do you manage your training stress? More rest days? Do we properly recognise and acknowledge when we need to take a rest or do we keep going regardless 'cause the plan says'. Do marathon runners experience more training stress than sprint or middle distance runners?

I usually run every day, sometimes twice, on average over the last 5 years it works out about 19 days out of 20.

90% of my running is stress relief with just the key sessions adding stress.
If I feel the accumulated stress / fatigue (which can be part of the plan, especially marathon ones) is getting close to the red zone I'll bring forward a recovery day or 2, or run in the morning one day and the evening on the next, effectively having 1.5 days off

Stress + Rest = Growth

Macy0161

May look into the book myself. I'm actually trying a change of plan with a large part of it to do with rest/ sleep, as I've had a lot of the tell tale signs mentioned in the article of overtraining! Difficulty getting to sleep, irritable etc.

I've just frozen my gym membership (as a precursor to giving it up, just not ready to fully commit!), as the pre work sessions weren't helping sleep just in terms of getting up early. But also as I felt under pressure to justify the cost so was trying to get there four mornings a week, which was an added stress (both in general and trying to get to sleep). So it will be less early starts, but less swimming (I did use the gym too), but am going back to one (hopefully two) coached swims a week plus another on my own - quality over quantity! Only week one, but already feel better and feel more rested!

I also had longer term ambitions for marathons and/or full distance triathlon, but I've come to realise that is not possible with the required training volume that my body and work/ family balance can manage. So focus will be on shorter races than marathon, I'm in for Run-The-Ridge and Run-The-Line long courses, but I think that type of distance is probably the top of my ambition (distance wise) for the next year or two tbh. If I can maintain that for a few years, or something else changes, I'll revisit.

Annie get your Run

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

or run in the morning one day and the evening on the next, effectively having 1.5 days off

Stress + Rest = Growth

I'm going to steel that idea! I'll be looking at ways to minimise stress and maximise recovery when I do get back training and that sounds like a great idea especially around session days and long runs, thanks .

I think the newer you are to running, increasing mileage (even if mostly at easy pace) can be an added stress, where as at your level as you say the easy miles are not adding stress - maybe..

BeepBeep67

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I think the newer you are to running, increasing mileage (even if mostly at easy pace) can be an added stress, where as at your level as you say the easy miles are not adding stress - maybe..

Kind of agree, but if your recovery days are adding stress then ultimately you're doing wrong / too fast.

average_runner

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Kind of agree, but if your recovery days are adding stress then ultimately you're doing wrong / too fast.

And we are getting older

Testosterscone

Recovery is definitely something i have been thinking more and more about over the past few months. I don't think it is as simple as rest more / train less.

I'll put this question to people. Is your rest efficient/effective?

Why is it that some runners like Krusty can bang out 100 mile weeks including stressful sessions (as opposed to all easy miles with minimal stress) while others experience overtraining on 1/3 of that?

Or looking at the "good aul days" why the likes of John Downes could knock out 110 mile weeks coming off a full time manual job on building sites?

We need to factor in the causes of stress and whether inactivity actually can contribute to stress or help.

(This post will probably be a little disjointed as this is build up of alot of idea's over the last while on the subject so apologies)

Sleep quality
I think this is somewhere alot of us fall down. One of the big difference between the lads who were putting in serious miles back in the 70s/80s etc was the absence of the internet/phones/laptops/Satellite TV. When they went to bed it was to sleep. Most of us could do with 20-30 min winding down before heading to bed.

Beepbeep made a good point about easy runs being stress relief, if you are worrying about pace, fitting in the miles or even listening to a podcast or the likes you are not mentally tuning out enough to mentally recover. With the way modern society is if you are using running as an outlet then you need to embrace that. This is something I feel that we are missing a bit in an era where everyone is focused so much on specificity of pace etc that they tend to not embrace running with someone faster/slower than them once in a while or indeed training in groups for workouts for fear the paces might not tick an exact physiological box. Sometimes you can actually recover more (if the stress is mental) from a hard session where you just tune out and follow in the pack than you would by running solo at easy pace with the weight of your world on your shoulders. Group and club dynamics here can play a huge role and are often an underutilized tool even in those who are active club members.

I know from personal experience over the summer I went through a spell where I struggled with overtraining. I was not doing anything different in my day to day training and not forcing the paces on easy days but there were other factors in my life which I was not accounting for. The old adage of there being no such thing as overtraining only under recovering is something which I feel is definitely true. For me personally getting out and running a recovery run trumps a day rest for me personally. If I take a day off I feel I need to make up for the time I do spend running by making use of the extra "free time" I have to the point where I am catching up on something else to the point where it becomes counter intuitive to take a day off much like those who are all or nothing athlete who need to be forced to take a rest day because they won't recover if they get out an run.

Coaches also have a responsibility here in getting to know there athletes and managing the recovery. For example if you know a runner is a worrier then the last thing you should be doing in build up to a race is over-analyzing as all you are doing is adding to there stress counteracting the taper. One big change to my training this year which ties in with this is that I would rarely know what my sessions are till the day before or indeed the day of. This works for me because I am not wasting energy stressing on the one at the weekend on the Wednesday and just focusing on whats in front of me.

If you feel you need extra recovery my advice is to make sure its quality recovery. No point taking an extra rest day if you are going to spend it putting pressure on yourself about nailing training tomorrow to justify the need for rest today. Unplug, switch off, do something that will distract you. So many people talk of Rest and Recovery without dealing with it in a meaningful way.

Annie get your Run

Excellent post L. I know I get stressed easily (that includes stressing about runs/paces/races even at my level....) and I'm definitely one of those people who runs solo because I'm afraid running in a group will see my paces being wrong - I'll look at this differently now. Totally agree with you on the sleep front too and it's another thing I'm guilty off, having the laptop/phone/TV on when I should be sleeping.

Macy0161

I definitely would agree with a lot of that Testosterscone. I'm trying to get to swap in a club session to my schedule as well. I'm not sure it's going to work out (family wise - could be another cause of stress), but in the past I had resisted because it wouldn't part of "my" plan, whereas now I'm thinking letting someone else worry about what I'll be doing for an hour is no bad thing!

I hadn't thought of the whole listening to a podcast thing though. Must experiment with that, as I had assumed it did help me switch off!

eyrie

This is a really interesting thread, enjoying reading the inputs so far.

Couldn't agree more with Testosterscone's point about it all being relative (i.e. some people can run mega mileage and manage it fine, whereas someone else might be stressing their body/mind on a fraction of the volume). It's something I've experienced in the past, and without running over 35 mpw!

But I think if you get bogged down in being a bit (or a lot) obsessive about it to the detriment of allowing yourself time to enjoy the rest of your life and spend time with friends/family, it becomes an extra stress and can be hard for your body to deal with. Coupled with not sleeping enough, and in many cases not fuelling enough, it can really take its toll. I know for women certainly (maybe for men too? don't know lads, sorry!) there can be a major physical/hormonal impact (female athlete triad being the extreme manifestation) which I suspect is a lot more common than is acknowledged.

Now in my case any problems I experienced were definitely not down to volume (low, as already mentioned) or lack of rest days (I took two a week usually) but stemmed from my attitude to it and to not looking after the other factors (sleep, fuelling, relaxation, etc).

RayCun

The latest from Magness is relevant
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/10/the-insecurity-of-hard-work.html

The Muppet

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Excellent post L. I know I get stressed easily (that includes stressing about runs/paces/races even at my level....) and I'm definitely one of those people who runs solo because I'm afraid running in a group will see my paces being wrong - I'll look at this differently now. Totally agree with you on the sleep front too and it's another thing I'm guilty off, having the laptop/phone/TV on when I should be sleeping.

Why do you get mentally stressed about paces and levels, knowing you I'm sure that on any given day you give races etc your best effort, why would you be stressed about what anyone else would think, disappointed in a run and physically stressed I understand.

Interesting discussion, I,ve ran every day for the last few weeks so it's great timing for me , I can certainly fell the effect of the higher milage especially in my legs but I would labelled it as adaptation rather than stress.

Annie get your Run

RayCun wrote: »

The latest from Magness is relevant
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/10/the-insecurity-of-hard-work.html

Thanks Ray, very relevant and another good read.

HelenAnne

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Excellent post L. I know I get stressed easily (that includes stressing about runs/paces/races even at my level....) and I'm definitely one of those people who runs solo because I'm afraid running in a group will see my paces being wrong - I'll look at this differently now. Totally agree with you on the sleep front too and it's another thing I'm guilty off, having the laptop/phone/TV on when I should be sleeping.

I just wrote a really long repky and that bl$*%y Captcha thing deleted it!!! :mad:

Annie get your Run

The Muppet wrote: »

Why do you get mentally stressed about paces and levels, knowing you I'm sure that on any given day you give races etc your best effort, why would you be stressed about what anyone else would think, disappointed in a run and physically stressed I understand.

Interesting discussion, I,ve ran every day for the last few weeks so it's great timing for me , I can certainly fell the effect of the higher milage especially in my legs but I would labelled it as adaptation rather than stress.

I don't give a toss what anyone else thinks (well, I do a bit but not in that way). I measure myself against my own standards and I love a good rule/instruction! So when I'm given a plan, and it says run 14 miles @ MP that's exactly what I do (I'll get that run done yet....), regardless of whether I slept well (or for long enough) the night before, or any of the tons of things that make it more difficult to hit the prescribed pace you've been given. I'll have spent hours planning the route and thinking about the weather. Testosterone & Beep Beep are bang on when they talk about stressing over the runs themselves, I never thought of it like that before but it makes sense and if you're someone who does overthink things & obsess about this weeks session or hitting the exact number of miles in the plan, then this part of the discussion is very useful. The lovely t-shirt the novices gave norb and I last year says it all really.....'Stick to the plan' . I must have repeated it an awful lot.....!

eyrie wrote: »

But I think if you get bogged down in being a bit (or a lot) obsessive about it to the detriment of allowing yourself time to enjoy the rest of your life and spend time with friends/family, it becomes an extra stress and can be hard for your body to deal with. Coupled with not sleeping enough, and in many cases not fuelling enough, it can really take its toll. I know for women certainly (maybe for men too? don't know lads, sorry!) there can be a major physical/hormonal impact (female athlete triad being the extreme manifestation) which I suspect is a lot more common than is acknowledged.

Now in my case any problems I experienced were definitely not down to volume (low, as already mentioned) or lack of rest days (I took two a week usually) but stemmed from my attitude to it and to not looking after the other factors (sleep, fuelling, relaxation, etc).

Definitely agree with this eyrie

Annie get your Run

HelenAnne wrote: »

I just wrote a really long repky and that bl$*%y Captcha thing deleted it!!! :mad:

Ah damn it Helen, I bet it was a great post too!!!

The Muppet

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I don't give a toss what anyone else thinks (well, I do a bit but not in that way). I measure myself against my own standards and I love a good rule/instruction! So when I'm given a plan, and it says run 14 miles @ MP that's exactly what I do (I'll get that run done yet....), regardless of whether I slept well (or for long enough) the night before, or any of the tons of things that make it more difficult to hit the prescribed pace you've been given. I'll have spent hours planning the route and thinking about the weather. Testosterone & Beep Beep are bang on when they talk about stressing over the runs themselves, I never thought of it like that before but it makes sense and if you're someone who does overthink things & obsess about this weeks session or hitting the exact number of miles in the plan, then this part of the discussion is very useful. The lovely t-shirt the novices gave norb and I last year says it all really.....'Stick to the plan' . I must have repeated it an awful lot.....!

I get all that and like you I do think of routes and runs well in advance , I'm just not one for overthinking it . Suffice to say stick to the plan is firmly engrained when it come to running.

The example given in the article of the guy not training for two weeks before a race and winning is pretty inconclusive though considering that it take two weeks for adaptation so he would not have benefitted from training in those weeks anyway in that race. Unless the point is that total rest had him fresher than a proper taper over those weeks but we have no way of knowing if that is the case.

HelenAnne

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Ah damn it Helen, I bet it was a great post too!!!

It wasn't, it was rambly as all my posts are , but have written another!

HelenAnne

That’s a really interesting point about thinking about / planning your running being an added stressor. I really feel that too! So much so, that I actually don’t do it! I sometimes worry (there’s always something to worry about!) that I won’t improve as much as I otherwise might because I don’t follow a tailored plan, I never have exact paces in mind for a run, and I’ve no idea what time I should be running reps in at speed sessions. However, whenever I do think that maybe I should follow a stricter plan, I start to get a bit stressed straight away, about which days I can do certain things, how I’ll programme my watch for reps etc etc, so I’ve just decided that a much looser weekly plan (hill, LSR, race and / or session, plus easy runs) works for me. Even sometimes when people start chatting to me about running in real life and ask me about my threshold pace / what pace I do in sessions etc, I find myself getting a bit stressed trying to answer. My running pal, K, teases me that I’m like some kind of ad for Brooks, because I insist on ‘running happy’.

I find that there are some stresses I can’t avoid in running – I get very nervous before races, I’m a bit anxious all day before speed sessions, I worry if I’m going for a run with someone faster, or going up a distance. I just have to put up with those anxieties and try to reframe them as excitement / readiness to race, but I can avoid getting tied in knots over how much / what type of training I’m doing, so I do.

I agree with Testosterscone that group running takes away a lot of the planning / pacing stress; I really find that’s true. I joined a club before I found boards or got a Garmin or read any running books, so I just fell in with what a lot of older runners were doing, which was basically steady runs at approximate distances and paces (because most of my companions didn’t have Garmins either). All the early advice I got was old-school and (for me) really useful – like always warm up and cool down, put your gear back on after a race, don’t be standing around chatting, make sure you’re running your LSR slow enough to chat, if you want a tempo run go out with someone a bit faster ...

I know that some people genuinely love planning and exact details, and for them that’s part of their love of running and it doesn’t stress them at all (you should have seen the planning spreadsheet my husband had for ultras!), but for me personally, just being able to go out and do various ‘types’ of run (like ‘sociable’, ‘hilly’, ‘harder’), rather than anything too specific made it easier for me to get into the running habit. I think if I’d had to learn too much about the science of running when I was starting out I might not have stuck with it.

I know loads of you might really enjoy the planning / exact side of running, and if you do, brilliant! But for anyone who doesn’t really like it, I think (unless you’re and elite and it’s your job) it’s ok to be more casual about it. I’m not the fastest or strongest runner, but even with a pretty laissez-faire attitude to it, I have improved a bit over the years. I think finding a way of training that works for you and being consistent is probably the most important.
I’d quite like to read that book, Firedance, stuff about rest is always interesting. During my summer sabbatical I was really prioritising sleep, so I hope I can keep that up now that I’m back at work!

I wish the article had explained metabolic / hormonal fatigue, though. I really only know mental (which I suppose I'm referring to in my post) and physical. Are the other two well-known / medically accepted or is it a new theory? (I suppose I should buy the book to find out!) (PS hope you enjoyed the quiz!)

Annie get your Run

Thanks a million for that Helen, some brilliant advice & suggestions in there, particularly the 'Run Happy' one, I'll have to steal that too . I'm looking forward to reading the book in detail although it probably won't be any better than all the input from here so far! (PS the quiz was brilliant, congrats to your team!).

Annie get your Run

Just to follow up on this, I bought the kindle version of this when it was released last week, I'm just over half way through. For me it's been a bit of an eye opener - I'm just getting to the interesting part but it's made me reevaluate my goals and acknowledge my unrealistic expectations. Pity it wasn't available 18 months ago but better late than never at all.

It's worth sticking on the Christmas list.

chickey2

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Just to follow up on this, I bought the kindle version of this when it was released last week, I'm just over half way through. For me it's been a bit of an eye opener - I'm just getting to the interesting part but it's made me reevaluate my goals and acknowledge my unrealistic expectations. Pity it wasn't available 18 months ago but better late than never at all.

It's worth sticking on the Christmas list.

What's the actual name of the book? I tried opening the times article but I've reached my limit this week and it won't open for me!

Annie get your Run

chickey2 wrote: »

What's the actual name of the book? I tried opening the times article but I've reached my limit this week and it won't open for me!

It's called Rest is the New Sport - here's an Amazon link.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rest-New-Sport-Identify-Biological/dp/9082731002

Despite the title, it's not suggesting you should give up exercise in favour of rest, rather it talks about recovery and how the lack thereof can lead to different stages (worsening) of fatigue and how to mange your recovery if you find you are in one of those stages.