2017-18 Champions Cup

Buer

Eod100 wrote: »

La Rochelle did relatively well in this year's pool stages but now they're in Challenge Cup. Montpellier don't seem to go too well in Europe. Will be fairly interesting!

Montpellier at the one team that have arguably strengthened simply by signing a big player in a key position with Goosen arriving. That could be a missing piece in their puzzle and give them some depth they lacked when Cruden was injured. They've also brought in Le Devedec, another big lump of a lock to add yet more depth and power to their pack.

Just as this season, I would hate to get Montpellier in the pool stage although they'll possibly be a top seed this time around.

Bridge93

Castres

Eod100 wrote: »

Leinster were 1/7 with the bookies there straight away after the final. I would see them as one of the favourites but that's a ridiculous price. Don't know what sort of pool they will get and still 2 knock-out games before reaching a final.

There's no Clermont this season though! Maybe Toulon or Racing could have a decent season.

La Rochelle did relatively well in this year's pool stages but now they're in Challenge Cup. Montpellier don't seem to go too well in Europe. Will be fairly interesting!

I’m seeing Leinster at 17/10. Who’s giving them at 1/7!
Montpellier are arguably in the top 3/4 sides in Europe this year. They just happened to be in a group with two others in the same bracket

Eod100

Bridge93 wrote: »

I’m seeing Leinster at 17/10. Who’s giving them at 1/7!
Montpellier are arguably in the top 3/4 sides in Europe this year. They just happened to be in a group with two others in the same bracket

Sorry, yeah 17/10!

At same time, just need to look at poll before this season's Champions Cup to show that anything can happen!

Eod100

Eod100 wrote: »

Sorry, yeah 17/10!

At same time, just need to look at poll before this season's Champions Cup to show that anything can happen!

Munster at 14/1 seems decent but PP don't seem to be accepting each way bets on it

Clegg

Buer wrote: »

I reckon Munster should be very well placed to have a real crack next season if they can stay fit and have a coherent game plan. It hinges on how they deal with their outhalf issue. I'm not sure they know themselves what their best backline is although I wouldn't be shocked to see Taute revert to the back three at some point if they've a full deck to deal from to get their best players on the field.

I feel the outhalf issue is overblown. Munster's real problem is their pack. They don't have the forwards to live with the Leinster's or Racing's. Just like they couldn't live with Saracens last season. Beirne is a good signing but I don't think he bridges the gap between Munster and the front runners.

Eod100

Clegg wrote: »

I feel the outhalf issue is overblown. Munster's real problem is their pack. They don't have the forwards to live with the Leinster's or Racing's. Just like they didn't have they couldn't live with Saracens last season. Beirne is a good signing but I don't think he bridges the gap between Munster and the front runners.

I thought their pack did well against Racing. Maybe breakdown work and defense could have been better

Clegg

Eod100 wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

I feel the outhalf issue is overblown. Munster's real problem is their pack. They don't have the forwards to live with the Leinster's or Racing's. Just like they didn't have they couldn't live with Saracens last season. Beirne is a good signing but I don't think he bridges the gap between Munster and the front runners.

I thought their pack did well against Racing. Maybe breakdown work and defense could have been better

They were blown away in the opening 20. The speed of ball Racing were getting was due to Munster having no chance of slowing it down. It was total domination.

joseywhales

Not sure about the process for picking the 20th CC qualifier. The pro14 had 3 semi finalists and won both competitions(and contain 4 participating unions) yet another average prem team are in the CC. Ospreys or Ulster would beat them in a playoff.

Jump_In_Jack

Clegg wrote: »

They were blown away in the opening 20. The speed of ball Racing were getting was due to Munster having no chance of slowing it down. It was total domination.

Openside flanker was the issue,
Cloete and O'Donnell both missing, and then O'Donoghue was selected over Oliver, and Copeland on bench ahead of Oliver also.

That in my opinion was a big mistake.

Oliver should have started, and arguably Copeland should have started as his form has been outstanding recently.
Stander has been in a bit of a rut.

Also, can't forget that Munster had to travel to South Africa the week before potentially why they started so poorly.

Fully expect Munster to be stronger once Cloete and O'Donnell are back.
O'Donoghue is an 8, shouldn't be playing him anywhere else IMO.

Jump_In_Jack

Exeter Chiefs

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Openside flanker was the issue,
Cloete and O'Donnell both missing, and then O'Donoghue was selected over Oliver, and Copeland on bench ahead of Oliver also.

That in my opinion was a big mistake.

Oliver should have started, and arguably Copeland should have started as his form has been outstanding recently.
Stander has been in a bit of a rut.

I don't think Oliver would have done anything in those first 20. The entire pack just got bullied.

Jump_In_Jack

Rhea Massive Barrel wrote: »

I don't think Oliver would have done anything in those first 20. The entire pack just got bullied.

Edited to add, they had to travel to South Africa to win an important fixture against Cheetahs before playing Racing and that must have affected them.
Think the altitude would also have affected them, and it was a tough game.

Clegg

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

They were blown away in the opening 20. The speed of ball Racing were getting was due to Munster having no chance of slowing it down. It was total domination.

Openside flanker was the issue,
Cloete and O'Donnell both missing, and then O'Donoghue was selected over Oliver, and Copeland on bench ahead of Oliver also.

That in my opinion was a big mistake.

Oliver should have started, and arguably Copeland should have started as his form has been outstanding recently.
Stander has been in a bit of a rut.

Also, can't forget that Munster had to travel to South Africa the week before potentially why they started so poorly.

Fully expect Munster to be stronger once Cloete and O'Donnell are back.
O'Donoghue is an 8, shouldn't be playing him anywhere else IMO.

I don't doubt that the lack of openside hurt, but that was just one part of a greater problem. The entire pack was blown away. PoM missed a load of tackles and Stander was utterly ineffective. Every player lost collisions and were swept backwards. It was utterly one sided.

Eod100

joseywhales wrote: »

Not sure about the process for picking the 20th CC qualifier. The pro14 had 3 semi finalists and won both competitions(and contain 4 participating unions) yet another average prem team are in the CC. Ospreys or Ulster would beat them in a playoff.

Fairly impressive alright that 3 out of 7 Pro14 teams made it to semi-finals. Compared to 1 Premiership team making qfs, but think Premiership did have a fairly bad season so probably not the norm.

I guess it is rewarding Challenge Cup success. Guess it comes down to which deserves more merit, getting to knock-out stages of CC or finishing say 8th after losing Pro14 play-off. Then again Gloucester finished 7th in Premiership so hard to know!

.ak

The poll results here makes me happy.

Squatter

Eod100 wrote: »

I guess it is rewarding Challenge Cup success. Guess it comes down to which deserves more merit, getting to knock-out stages of CC or finishing say 8th after losing Pro14 play-off. Then again Gloucester finished 7th in Premiership so hard to know!

Gloucester finished 7th in the Premiership mainly because they simply stopped playing after winning their European semi final which ensured them qualification in the ECC next season. Like Leinster in the Pro 14 they fielded understrength teams and their last two results were:

home to Bath - a HUGE local derby that form suggested they would win easily enough: 20 - 48.

and away to Sarries: 62 - 12 (losing is fair enough, but by that score???)

If they had managed to earn a single bonus point from either game, they would have finished 6th in the Premiership - but instead by effectively throwing the Bath game, they enabled Bath to finish 6th which cost Sale a place in the ECC.

Eod100

What's the craic with seeding for next seasons Champions Cup? Are seedings decided after knockout stages?

ScrubsfanChris

Racing 92

Eod100 wrote: »

What's the craic with seeding for next seasons Champions Cup? Are seedings decided after knockout stages?

Think so yeah. For Pro12 Scarlets were 1st and Munster 2nd for last year's pool seedings.

Jump_In_Jack

Eod100 wrote: »

What's the craic with seeding for next seasons Champions Cup? Are seedings decided after knockout stages?

Winner of Leinster v Scarlets will be seed 1, runner-up will be 2, Glasgow 3, Munster 4, Edinburgh 5, Cardiff 6, Ulster 7.

Explained here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_European_Rugby_Champions_Cup

errlloyd

Exeter Chiefs

Eod100 wrote: »

What's the craic with seeding for next seasons Champions Cup? Are seedings decided after knockout stages?

We can start filling it up actually.

Pot 4: Ulster, Gloucester, Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath
Pot 3: Toulon, Leicster, Edinburgh, Newcastle*, France 4*
Pot 2: Munster*, Wasps, Glasgow, France 3, Pro14 2**
Pot 1: AP 2**, France 2**, Pro14 1, AP 1, France 1

* - each of these teams has an equal, random chance, of being Pot 3 or Pot 2.

** - each of these teams has an equal, random chance, of being Pot 2 or Pot 1.

Pro14 1 and 2 are Leinster or Scarlets
AP 1 and 2 are Saracens or Exeter
France 1-4 are Montpellier, Racing, Castre or Lyon.

nordydan

Wasps

errlloyd wrote: »

Eod100 wrote: »

What's the craic with seeding for next seasons Champions Cup? Are seedings decided after knockout stages?

We can start filling it up actually.

Pot 4: Ulster, Gloucester, Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath
Pot 3: Toulon, Leicster, Edinburgh, Newcastle*, France 4*
Pot 2: Munster*, Wasps, Glasgow, France 3, Pro14 2**
Pot 1: AP 2**, France 2**, Pro14 1, AP 1, France 1

* - each of these teams has an equal, random chance, of being Pot 3 or Pot 2.

** - each of these teams has an equal, random chance, of being Pot 2 or Pot 1.

Pro14 1 and 2 are Leinster or Scarlets
AP 1 and 2 are Saracens or Exeter
France 1-4 are Montpellier, Racing, Castre or Lyon.

Would be fair to have European champions Leinster as top seeds too if Scarlets win final

nordydan

Wasps

errlloyd wrote: »

Eod100 wrote: »

What's the craic with seeding for next seasons Champions Cup? Are seedings decided after knockout stages?

We can start filling it up actually.

Pot 4: Ulster, Gloucester, Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath
Pot 3: Toulon, Leicster, Edinburgh, Newcastle*, France 4*
Pot 2: Munster*, Wasps, Glasgow, France 3, Pro14 2**
Pot 1: AP 2**, France 2**, Pro14 1, AP 1, France 1

* - each of these teams has an equal, random chance, of being Pot 3 or Pot 2.

** - each of these teams has an equal, random chance, of being Pot 2 or Pot 1.

Pro14 1 and 2 are Leinster or Scarlets
AP 1 and 2 are Saracens or Exeter
France 1-4 are Montpellier, Racing, Castre or Lyon.

Would be fair to have European champions Leinster as top seeds too if Scarlets win final

Rigor Mortis

Castres

Pot 4: Ulster, Gloucester, Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath
Pot 3: Toulon, Leicster, Edinburgh, Newcastle*, Lyon*
Pot 2: Munster*, Wasps, Glasgow, Racing, Scarlets**
Pot 1: Exeter**, France 2**, Leinster, Saracens, France 1

aloooof

Northampton Saints

First year without the Italian teams is making the quality in Pot 4 look a bit more level, even given their improvement this year. It's a shame Benetton couldn't get the win over Toulon earlier in the season as it was always going to be difficult for them to get in again.

Squatter

aloooof wrote: »

It's a shame Benetton couldn't get the win over Toulon earlier in the season as it was always going to be difficult for them to get in again.

Or have won their away game V the Scarlets where their 14 man team were absolutely heroic until the last 3 minutes.

molloyjh

Exeter Chiefs

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Pot 4: Ulster, Gloucester, Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath
Pot 3: Toulon, Leicster, Edinburgh, Newcastle*, Lyon*
Pot 2: Munster*, Wasps, Glasgow, Racing, Scarlets**
Pot 1: Exeter**, France 2**, Leinster, Saracens, France 1

From a Leinster perspective a good pool would be:

Leinster
Castres
Newcastle
Cardiff

It would make up for the tough group from this season anyway.

Horror pool would be:

Leinster
Exeter
Toulon
Toulouse

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

From a Leinster perspective a good pool would be:

Leinster
Castres
Newcastle
Cardiff

It would make up for the tough group from this season anyway.

Horror pool would be:

Leinster
Exeter
Toulon
Toulouse

Second pool would be fairly brutal but I'd still back us to top it. I wouldn't be too certain of a home quarter final, however.

It'd be nice to get Newcastle to allow us do our research on the city and stadium before returning in May.

Riskymove

Castres

molloyjh wrote: »

Horror pool would be:

Leinster
Exeter
Toulon
Toulouse

there are only 6 French teams so can only be one per group

Former Former

Riskymove wrote: »

there are only 6 French teams so can only be one per group

But only 5 groups, so one group will have 2 French teams.

Riskymove

Castres

Former Former wrote: »

But only 5 groups, so one group will have 2 French teams.

d'oh.....need coffee

Buer

To be honest, I'm somewhat relieved Saracens won the AP. I still rate them as the second best team in Europe and wouldn't fancy them on a home and away basis at all. I was pretty disgusted when our reward as top seeds was their visit and they really put it up to us for the opening 40 minutes before we dominated the third quarter to win the match.

But I think guys like Itoje and Farrell should be in better condition next year as well as having lads like Koch and Vunipola available again and they'll be better again.

I think a lot will be decided on who can avoid injuries and the draw teams end up with.

Former Former

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Pot 4: Ulster, Gloucester, Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath
Pot 3: Toulon, Leicster, Edinburgh, Newcastle*, Lyon*
Pot 2: Munster*, Wasps, Glasgow, Racing, Scarlets**
Pot 1: Exeter**, France 2**, Leinster, Saracens, France 1

Ulster's nightmare pool: Saracens, Scarlets, Toulon, Ulster
Munster's nightmare pool: Saracens, Munster, Toulon, Toulouse

Ulster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Edinburgh, Ulster
Munster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Munster, Cardiff

KevinK

Former Former;107127494


Ulster's nightmare pool: Saracens, Scarlets, Toulon, Ulster
Munster's nightmare pool: Saracens, Munster, Toulon, Toulouse
Don't think this Ulster pool is possible

Ulster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Edinburgh, Ulster
Munster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Munster, Cardiff
Would Newcastlr not be better than wasps?

Former Former

KevinK wrote: »

Former Former;107127494


Ulster's nightmare pool: Saracens, Scarlets, Toulon, Ulster
Munster's nightmare pool: Saracens, Munster, Toulon, Toulouse
Don't think this Ulster pool is possible

Ulster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Edinburgh, Ulster
Munster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Munster, Cardiff
Would Newcastlr not be better than wasps?

The Ulster pool is possible - if Scarlets get the unlucky draw and go into pot two (1 in 3 chance).

Newcastle are hard to predict, are they a one-season wonder, do they have the squad to compete in both Europe and AP? Very hard to call.

Buer

KevinK wrote: »

Ulster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Edinburgh, Ulster
Munster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Munster, Cardiff
Would Newcastlr not be better than wasps?

No, not close I'd imagine although Newcastle are improving. Wasps also have some good signings arriving this summer.

molloyjh

Exeter Chiefs

Best Ulster pool would surely be Castres, Glasgow, Newcastle, Ulster?

Munsters would probably be Castres, Munster, Newcastle, Cardiff.

KevinK

Buer wrote: »

KevinK wrote: »

Ulster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Edinburgh, Ulster
Munster's best pool; Castres, Wasps, Munster, Cardiff
Would Newcastlr not be better than wasps?

No, not close I'd imagine although Newcastle are improving. Wasps also have some good signings arriving this summer.

Sorry, by better I meant "better" in a who would you like in a best case scenario pool

KevinK

The Ulster pool is possible - if Scarlets get the unlucky draw and go into pot two (1 in 3 chance).
Sorry thought Ulster were pool 4 for some reason - which would mean they couldnt play any pro 14 team from Pot1 or 2.

In my defence I think Toulon are meant to be in Pot 4 not Pot 3 as stated above.

errlloyd

Exeter Chiefs

molloyjh wrote: »

Horror pool would be:

Leinster
Exeter
Toulon
Toulouse

Is it controversial to say I don't think that's as hard as this year's pool...

Former Former

KevinK wrote: »

The Ulster pool is possible - if Scarlets get the unlucky draw and go into pot two (1 in 3 chance).
Sorry thought Ulster were pool 4 for some reason - which would mean they couldnt play any pro 14 team from Pot1 or 2.

In my defence I think Toulon are meant to be in Pot 4 not Pot 3 as stated above.

Ulster are in Pot 4 - and only teams in Pot 4 can double up with another team from the same league, so e.g. Ulster (pot 4) and Glasgow (pot 2) can be drawn together, but Leinster (pot 1) and Edinburgh (pot 3) cannot.

Toulon are in pot 3; Pot 4 is only the sixth-placed teams from each league, plus the 7th Pro14 team (Ulster) and the Challenge winner (Gloucester)

awec

We're going to get a group of death, cause that's just how things work for Ulster.

KevinK

Former Former wrote: »

KevinK wrote: »

The Ulster pool is possible - if Scarlets get the unlucky draw and go into pot two (1 in 3 chance).
Sorry thought Ulster were pool 4 for some reason - which would mean they couldnt play any pro 14 team from Pot1 or 2.

In my defence I think Toulon are meant to be in Pot 4 not Pot 3 as stated above.

Toulon are in pot 3; Pot 4 is only the sixth-placed teams from each league, plus the 7th Pro14 team (Ulster) and the Challenge winner (Gloucester)

Are you sure Toulon are not the 6th place French team?
Castres/Montpellier - 1/2
Racing -3 , Lyon - 4, Tolouse- 5 , Toulon -6 

I think

Former Former

KevinK wrote: »

Are you sure Toulon are not the 6th place French team?
Castres/Montpellier - 1/2
Racing -3 , Lyon - 4, Tolouse- 5 , Toulon -6

I think

Gaaaah, you're right. OK, disregard all of it.

errlloyd

Exeter Chiefs

KevinK wrote: »

Are you sure Toulon are not the 6th place French team?
Castres/Montpellier - 1/2
Racing -3 , Lyon - 4, Tolouse- 5 , Toulon -6 

I think

I made that original table, so I think it was probably my **** up on that.

molloyjh

Exeter Chiefs

errlloyd wrote: »

I made that original table, so I think it was probably my **** up on that.

Jesus errlloyd, you had one job! :P

errlloyd

Exeter Chiefs

molloyjh wrote: »

Jesus errlloyd, you had one job! :P

I genuinely did it from a mixture of memory and assumption. Even looking at it right now, I am still amazed Toulose came 3rd in the Top14. Was Toby Flood that bad?

Jump_In_Jack

Top14 final still to be played but following pools are possible:

Leinster (worst case) Leinster/Montpellier (possible only if loses final)/Newcastle/Toulon
Leinster (best case) Leinster/Lyon/Leicester/Blues

Munster (worst case) Saracens/Montpellier (possible only if loses final)/Munster/Toulon
Munster (best case) Castres/Munster/Leicester/Blues

Ulster (worst case) Saracens/Scarlets/Toulouse/Ulster
Ulster (best case) Castres/Newcastle/Edinburgh/Ulster

Squatter

Nice to see that Tadhg Beirne's try V Bath has been picked as the ECC try of the year. It was a beaut!

joseywhales

I think Gloucester and Bath and Newcastle are teams you should expect to beat home and away for any of the three provinces.
It's all about avoiding Montpelier and Saracens.

aloooof

Northampton Saints

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, I'm somewhat relieved Saracens won the AP. I still rate them as the second best team in Europe and wouldn't fancy them on a home and away basis at all. I was pretty disgusted when our reward as top seeds was their visit and they really put it up to us for the opening 40 minutes before we dominated the third quarter to win the match.

But I think guys like Itoje and Farrell should be in better condition next year as well as having lads like Koch and Vunipola available again and they'll be better again.

I think a lot will be decided on who can avoid injuries and the draw teams end up with.

I saw a recent stat (which I now can't find) about Saracens form early in the season vs their form later in the season. Stark contrast, they improved dramatically, Leinster really were unlucky to get them in the QF.

aloooof

Northampton Saints

errlloyd wrote: »

I genuinely did it from a mixture of memory and assumption. Even looking at it right now, I am still amazed Toulose came 3rd in the Top14. Was Toby Flood that bad?

Isn't Toby Flood with Newcastle now? Or am I missing something?