Should religious indoctrination of children be illegal?

Gerrup Outta Dat!

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

c_man wrote: »

Wait, so Catholics (hypothetically) not building schools is proof of their hypocrisy. *shakes fist at those damn Catholics*

But actual very low levels of the non-religious communities building schools is the fault of the state.

Gotcha.

My point is that the state should not be funding any school which subscribed to a certain religion. Do you have difficulty understanding this?

pjohnson

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

My point is that the state should not be funding any school which subscribed to a certain religion. Do you have difficulty understanding this?

You had difficulty explaining the OP.

Wanderer78

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote:

Moot argument and bad comparison. Most education is fact and is important for life and life skills. An education should be a human right. Religious indoctrination is not.

A lot of what is thought in our educational system is ****e, has very little to do with real life for many, very little life skills thought within the system

beauf

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Moot argument and bad comparison. Most education is fact and is important for life and life skills. An education should be a human right. Religious indoctrination is not.

It isn't a right either???

The only problem is atheists didn't t believe in building schools. So there are very few of them. It's improving though.

I'm more concerned about the number of shopping days till Xmas.

c_man

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

My point is that the state should not be funding any school which subscribed to a certain religion. Do you have difficulty understanding this?

Damn lazy, hypocritical Catholics not building schools in your proposed utopia...

But non-religious communities not building schools in the here and now is the fault of the state.

I think I understand your position perfectly.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

My point is that the state should not be funding any school which subscribed to a certain religion. Do you have difficulty understanding this?

Why not? The state uses tax payers money to fund schools. The majority of people in Ireland are catholic and want their children brought up as Catholics and schooled in catholic schools so of course the state should be funding catholic schools with the tax payers money. I would have a serious problem if the state even considered not funding catholic schools, not that it has a hope of happening.

beauf

Wanderer78 wrote: »

A lot of what is thought in our educational system is ****e, has very little to do with real life for many, very little life skills thought within the system

They should have higher level

Choose a Health insurance plan subject

Be harder than maths...

Gerrup Outta Dat!

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Lorenzo Clever Chinchilla wrote: »

The majority of people in Ireland are catholic and want their children brought up as Catholics and schooled in catholic schools

That’s not true

Sue Pa Key Pa

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote:

If you had the brain capacity to understand the thread you’ll see that my problem is with schools that receive STATE FUNDING being able to reject a huge demographic of the population based on religion (or lack thereof).

You don't seem to have the capacity to understand that the majority of schools are owned by the church and parents/citizens are more than happy to send their kids to them. Having made that choice, the State provides financial backup to support their free decision

Allinall

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

That’s not true

I think you'll find it is, much to your disappointment.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You don't seem to have the capacity to understand that the majority of schools are owned by the church and parents/citizens are more than happy to send their kids to them. Having made that choice, the State provides financial backup to support their free decision

And the only reason they send their kids there is because it’s their only choice usually.

beauf

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

And the only reason they send their kids there is because it’s their only choice usually.

True for some certainly. But not all.

AudreyHepburn

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Indoctrinating children into any type of belief system, be atheist or religious, is of course wrong and anyone with half a brain cell knows this.

That said I don’t consider our current education system indoctrination.

I was brought up Catholic and educated in a Catholic school and it hasn’t done me a bit of harm. I consider myself perfectly well rounded, intelligent and capable of making my own choices in life.

I believe we should teach children about all sides of the religion debate in a neutral way and let them make up their own minds.

Teaching them that all religious people are homophobic, peadophile enabling, unintelligent nut jobs is evey bit as bad as teaching them that all atheists are stuck up, militant and full of self importance.

Is it really that much of hardship just to allow people to decide for themselves?

Pwindedd

I would advocate removing the need for baptismal cert to enrol in catholic school and see where it goes from there. It's clear that a vast majority of parents only do it for this reason. You can still have a catholic ethos for the school. Religion class could be learning about all religions and we could all just be a little more chilled out about the whole thing. Let it evolve naturally. With peace.

We are a non religious family. My daughter passed through catholic school and despite a little bit of ostracism around confirmation time she seems to have a very 'meh' attitude to religion. We're not militant and we don't think we're cool or edgy. We just don't believe in God.

MadDog76

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

If you had the brain capacity to understand the thread you’ll see that my problem is with schools that receive STATE FUNDING being able to reject a huge demographic of the population based on religion (or lack thereof).

Irreligiousness (if that’s even a word) should be the default ethos of any school receiving state funding, if parents don’t like that then THEY should build a school for little Johnny. I doubt they would though. The majority of “Catholics” are hypocrites in this country anyway. Blindly ticking Catholic on the census and only attending Christmas Mass etc and only getting first Communion for the day out.

And the non-religious (and other religious) community have already built their own schools. They’re called Educate Together Schools, but these are woefully uncommon as state-funded “Catholic” schools.

You're ignoring the fact that a lot (most?) of the schools in Ireland, as well as the land they're on, are owned by the Catholic Church .......... so you're lot will need to purchase land and build new schools before you can criticise where State Funding is going.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Youre making the mistake of implying that a criticism of religion equates to a criticism of its followers.

This, however, is essentially the old bigoted line of Paisley and his followers: 'We don't hate Catholics; we hate their religion'. Shudder. There's a very, very, very fine line between that ostensible nuance and burning three little boys alive with a petrol bomb. Once you demean people as being lesser than you for their beliefs, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to justify doing much worse to them. They're not fully rational - or, in Irish history terms, they're 'superstitious popish natives'.

It's a basic lesson from history that's definitely not being learned by the more vociferous of the self-styled "atheists", many of whom at least online possess an anti-Catholic venom that would be firmly at home at a Free Presbyterian Church meeting led by Ian Paisley in 1965.

And I wouldn't have much time for the RCC and its collaboration with the British Empire in this country or its fee-charging Catholic schools in Dublin aping English private schools in their sporting and intellectual culture in 2017. Their English Ireland has never been worth fighting for, and never will be. Then again, I'm coming from a much older Gaelic/western seaboard/republican/socialist/anti-clerical/ cultural nationalist tradition in this country that would have no truck with the West Brit politics of "Atheist Ireland" and its republican-hating self-styled leader. A huge number of the self-styled "atheists" online are fly-by-night fashion followers who wouldn't have had the backbone or spirit to stand up against the Roman Catholic Church when it was a genuinely powerful force, on behalf of say the teacher Eileen Flynn in 1982. It takes no courage to take the RCC on now. None. Absolutely zero.

Anti-clericalism has existed in Ireland for much longer than these people have, although they'd like to give the impression that it was all darkness before "atheists" arrived to enlighten us poor benighted souls. It took genuine courage then:

Jim Gralton (1886-1945)

MadDog76

suicide_circus wrote: »

Youre making the mistake of implying that a criticism of religion equates to a criticism of its followers.

Deleted User wrote: »

This, however, is essentially the old bigoted line of Paisley and his followers: 'We don't hate Catholics; we hate their religion'. Shudder. There's a very, very, very fine line between that ostensible nuance and burning three little boys alive with a petrol bomb. Once you demean people as being lesser than you for their beliefs, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to justify doing much worse to them. They're not fully rational - or, in Irish history terms, they're 'superstitious popish natives'.

It's a basic lesson from history that's definitely not being learned by the more vociferous of the self-styled "atheists", many of whom at least online possess an anti-Catholic venom that would be firmly at home at a Free Presbyterian Church meeting led by Ian Paisley in 1965.

And I wouldn't have much time for the RCC and its collaboration with the British Empire in this country or its fee-charging Catholic schools in Dublin aping English private schools in their sporting and intellectual culture in 2017. Their English Ireland has never been worth fighting for, and never will be. Then again, I'm coming from a much older Gaelic/western seaboard/republican/socialist/anti-clerical/ cultural nationalist tradition in this country that would have no truck with the West Brit politics of "Atheist Ireland" and its republican-hating self-styled leader. A huge number of the self-styled "atheists" online are fly-by-night fashion followers who wouldn't have had the backbone or spirit to stand up against the Roman Catholic Church when it was a genuinely powerful force, on behalf of say the teacher Eileen Flynn in 1982. It takes no courage to take the RCC on now. None. Absolutely zero.

Anti-clericalism has existed in Ireland for much longer than these people have, although they'd like to give the impression that it was all darkness before "atheists" arrived to enlighten us poor benighted souls. It took genuine courage then:

Jim Gralton (1886-1945)

Wow .......... suicide circus just got slammed! Hard!!

suicide_circus

If you decide that your religion is the same as your identity and that any criticism or mockery of the beliefs held by that religion are therefore criticism or mockery of you well I'm sorry but tough sh*t.

I have friends and family to whom religion is extremely dearly held and I would never take the piss out of that. It provides them with untold comfort and strength. I will always love and respect these people but to ask me to respect ideas that my own brain and conscience reject as absurdity is simply asking too much.

eviltwin

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

It shouldn't be illegal, the state has no business telling parents what they can or can't do re their faith and passing that onto their children. There is free will so a child can choose to ignore it all anyway as many of us did ourselves.

I personally see religion as a force of evil and manage to live a happier life without it and as a result my children don't have any faith. My youngest has never been in a church, he's 7. He doesn't know anything about God and thinks Jesus is a swear word. He's free to convert if he wants though, his choice.

beefburrito

It's actually refreshing to see some people can actually have a civil debate and can see that the emperor's in the nip again.

Being a pagan,I have my own beliefs and I think Christian's have their own right to exist...
Atheism is a spin off of the abrahamic religion's.

Paganism is as ancient as the oldest yew tree and as modern as the hawthorn berry which fell there just now....

Atheism is just an identity without any substantial grounding.

server down

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, as long as consumerist indoctrination of children is also made illegal.

Yeh. People always notice the old indoctrination’s don’t they.

suicide_circus

MadDog76 wrote: »

Wow .......... suicide circus just got slammed! Hard!!

Can I just say, I oppose the question posed by the OP and that I wouldn't not identify myself as an atheist.

A Little Pony

Yeah ban religious indoctrination but allow political indoctrination via state broadcasting on RTE/BBC and the multiple news channels in America which side with either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party which are nothing more than propaganda channels designed to influence voters from those bases and anyone tuning in.

So why should religious indoctrination be banned but not political indoctrination? It's such a boring old Atheistic argument.

server down

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

My point is that the state should not be funding any school which subscribed to a certain religion. Do you have difficulty understanding this?

And yet what effect did this indoctrination have on you? How did the indoctrination affect the gay marriage referendum? How many religious taught you?

Catholic schools are pretty much mostly academic these days. That said I agree about communion - however that’s just another consumerist orgy these days.

Pwindedd

A Little Pony wrote: »

Yeah ban religious indoctrination but allow political indoctrination via state broadcasting on RTE/BBC and the multiple news channels in America which side with either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party which are nothing more than propaganda channels designed to influence voters from those bases and anyone tuning in.

So why should religious indoctrination be banned but not political indoctrination? It's such a boring old Atheistic argument.

Because we don't sit children down and make them watch RTE news?

That was a lazy comparison on your part.

A Little Pony

Pwindedd wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Yeah ban religious indoctrination but allow political indoctrination via state broadcasting on RTE/BBC and the multiple news channels in America which side with either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party which are nothing more than propaganda channels designed to influence voters from those bases and anyone tuning in.

So why should religious indoctrination be banned but not political indoctrination? It's such a boring old Atheistic argument.

Because we don't sit children down and make them watch RTE news?

That was a lazy comparison on your part.

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

eviltwin

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

RTE news isn't aimed at kids, neither are party political broadcasts.

Pwindedd

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

And most ADULTS are able to decipher this nonsense and make their own decisions based on their beliefs, either political or religious. Children's education on the other hand should be unbiased and free from agenda. It really is that simple.

A Little Pony

Pwindedd wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's constantly on our TVs all the time. Worship the big state but not "God".

And most ADULTS are able to decipher this nonsense and make their own decisions based on their beliefs, either political or religious. Children's education on the other hand should be unbiased and free from agenda. It really is that simple.

Everyone and everything has an agenda, be it religious, social and political.

beefburrito

Just saying there's no point in forwarding this thread to the Atheism and Agnosticism forum.

Because most of us would have infractions and a ban at this stage.

So keeping it here is much better, it's going well as it is.

beauf

I feel sorry for Santa and St Paddy

server down

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Pwindedd wrote: »

And most ADULTS are able to decipher this nonsense and make their own decisions based on their beliefs, either political or religious. Children's education on the other hand should be unbiased and free from agenda. It really is that simple.

Most adults think what they are supposed to think. I mean half of all Americans thought the Iraq war was a good idea at the time. Many more thought Iraq did 9/11.

server down

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

beefburrito wrote: »

Just saying there's no point in forwarding this thread to the Atheism and Agnosticism forum.

Because most of us would have infractions and a ban at this stage.

So keeping it here is much better, it's going well as it is.

They don't like contradiction over there, for sure.

server down

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

eviltwin wrote: »

RTE news isn't aimed at kids, neither are party political broadcasts.

You know what is aimed at kids though, advertisements. My otherwise kind and generous nieces and nephews can go wild for money, and whatever fad is out there.

Pwindedd

suicide_circus wrote: »

Can I just say, I oppose the question posed by the OP and that I wouldn't not identify myself as an atheist.

Agreed. I didn't answer the poll because of this. Whilst technically I'm an Atheist person, I don't identify as atheist. It's not a movement or a group in my eyes. It's simply just not believing in a god and having the freedom to do that and allow others to believe what they want. I do have these freedoms as an adult in Ireland I might add.

Our children should be afforded these same privileges

If ...

92% of schools in Ireland are Catholic.
78% of people in Ireland identify as Catholic

...Then You don't have to be a genius to see that there's some disparity there and it's growing every year.

eviltwin

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

server down wrote: »

You know what is aimed at kids though, advertisements. My otherwise kind and generous nieces and nephews can go wild for money, and whatever fad is out there.

If parents are happy to let their child watch adverts so what? If you don't want your kids exposed to that there is an off button.

I don't know about illegal but it should certainly be removed from schools. The places that enforce a school uniform during communion and a number of weeks requirement attending mass before communion show just how interested a number of them really are. Or aren't, rather

beauf

Many kids aren't interested in School Work or Exercise either.

I don't think religion should be schools either. But kids not being interested is a dubious metric.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Many kids aren't interested in School Work or Exercise either.

I don't think religion should be schools either. But kids not being interested is a dubious metric.

The parents, not the children. It's all super important when no effort is involved or dressing up only

_Dara_

Lorenzo Clever Chinchilla wrote: »

Why not? The state uses tax payers money to fund schools. The majority of people in Ireland are catholic and want their children brought up as Catholics and schooled in catholic schools so of course the state should be funding catholic schools with the tax payers money. I would have a serious problem if the state even considered not funding catholic schools, not that it has a hope of happening.

78% of the country is Catholic, weighted towards people whose children are grown up. Among the cohort who have school-going children, it’s closer to 50% as far as I recall.

beauf

Applies equally to parents though really.

Almost all of these threads come back to the main issue being getting a place in a school. That filtering should be not allowed in public schools.

Zebra3

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

beefburrito

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

And Thor wept...

Those day's of burning in hell went out in the 70's

Actually I think Fr Jack from Fr Ted tried to bring back the fire and brimstone.

The Atheist has more emphasis on the hell rubbish.

They love talking about it.

beauf

Zebra3 wrote: »

...Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.....

You'd think people would be so outraged they'd build their own schools everywhere. They didn't,so maybe they aren't that outraged. Also maybe not everyone has experienced this 1950s fire and brimstone and so isn't that worried about it. I don't think the census really gave us any insight into it either way.

eviltwin

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

beefburrito wrote: »

And Thor wept...

Those day's of burning in hell went out in the 70's

Actually I think Fr Jack from Fr Ted tried to bring back the fire and brimstone.

The Atheist has more emphasis on the hell rubbish.

They love talking about it.

But isn't burning in hell an essential part of the Catholic religion? Why would they leave that out?

server down

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

Nobody is defending that. Hell wasn’t mentioned at my catholic school. We’re just arguing the Op’s point.

beauf

eviltwin wrote: »

But isn't burning in hell an essential part of the Catholic religion? Why would they leave that out?

I would have assumed NOT burning in hell would be objective.

eviltwin

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

beauf wrote: »

I would have assumed NOT burning in hell would be objective.

Well that's what I meant. Growing up I was told there were certain things that would doom you to hell, unless that has changed in the last 30 yrs why is it being left out?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

Nobody teaches children that they will burn in hell. Hell is the eternal separation from God. I agree there's as much proof, to many, of the existence of that God exists as there is of hell existing, but at least represent the doctrine as it is taught.

Grayson

eviltwin wrote: »

But isn't burning in hell an essential part of the Catholic religion? Why would they leave that out?

They've redefined hell. It's now an absence of god as opposed to a burning firey place.

They do still teach that gay people are unnatural and contraception is evil.

Edit to add: Eternal damnation and purgatory are still in the picture, just not the hell that they taught for century.