Opinions on Irish identity

FrancieBrady

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If they were leaving due to disagreement on northern Ireland policy that would be a relevant comment.
Lab/FG making a dissident Republican a Senator might work to create links with other anti-GFA persons, should Brexit become a terrorism issue, which I very much doubt.

I think if we get a hard border the likelihood is SF will split into roughly a north south divide.
I think then we will find just what McGuinness and Adams having been holding together for so long.

Edward M

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think if we get a hard border the likelihood is SF will split into roughly a north south divide.
I think then we will find just what McGuinness and Adams having been holding together for so long.

That's an interesting comment.
Is that in your opinion why Gerry came south?
Is the southern faction trying to slightly get away from the more hard-line northern one?
Could that be why so many bullying allegations have been made?

FrancieBrady

Edward M wrote: »

That's an interesting comment.
Is that in your opinion why Gerry came south?
Is the southern faction trying to slightly get away from the more hard-line northern one?
Could that be why so many bullying allegations have been made?

No idea why he came south but I would suspect that was to grow the party.

I really cannot see SF surviving the reimposition of a border and a visible sign of partition.
I have no idea about the bullying allegations, I suspect normal party falling outs hyped by the media.

Edward M

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No idea why he came south but I would suspect that was to grow the party.

I really cannot see SF surviving the reimposition of a border and a visible sign of partition.
I have no idea about the bullying allegations, I suspect normal party falling outs hyped by the media.

But why, they would vehemently oppose the imposition of a border, would it not maybe have the effect of bolstering support and help them against the governing party's?
I know that 3/4 of the Republic wouldn't be affected by it perhaps personally, but I think countrywide no one wants to see a hard border.
I live in Co Cavan, just 15 miles from it I would hate to go back to it, I travel across it regularly, I wouldn't like it myself personally.

FrancieBrady

Edward M wrote: »

But why, they would vehemently oppose the imposition of a border, would it not maybe have the effect of bolstering support and help them against the governing party's?
I know that 3/4 of the Republic wouldn't be affected by it perhaps personally, but I think countrywide no one wants to see a hard border.
I live in Co Cavan, just 15 miles from it I would hate to go back to it, I travel across it regularly, I wouldn't like it myself personally.

The GFA was sold as a process that would deliver. Many made compromises that were tough and maybe on conditions. A border would tear SF apart internally IMO.
Hope I am wrong but I fear I am not.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think if we get a hard border the likelihood is SF will split into roughly a north south divide.
I think then we will find just what McGuinness and Adams having been holding together for so long.

Although I agree they play/played a large roll and it's regretful politicians in the south use the literal life and death situation to score childish points, (but will wear a poppy and visit Eniskillen) I can't see people returning to violence. You might be right about a SF political split, but I'd more expect the DUP affiliates to kick off after a United Ireland.

Edward M

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Although I agree they play/played a large roll and it's regretful politicians in the south use the literal life and death situation to score childish points, (but will wear a poppy and visit Eniskillen) I can't see people returning to violence. You might be right about a SF political split, but I'd more expect the DUP affiliates to kick off after a United Ireland.

I'd think SF would be inclined to your type of thinking.
They will probably play on the "inevitable" UI scenario if a hard border plays out.
Going on many posters posts here it looks like most in support of a UI would see it and use it as battering ram towards their position.
I feel that SF and its handlers would have to be against a return to violence now, it would almost certainly hold back any progress towards their end goal of a UI.

FrancieBrady

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Although I agree they play/played a large roll and it's regretful politicians in the south use the literal life and death situation to score childish points, (but will wear a poppy and visit Eniskillen) I can't see people returning to violence. You might be right about a SF political split, but I'd more expect the DUP affiliates to kick off after a United Ireland.

As we are talking about identities, there is an identity that will never accept a visible manifestation of partition.

I think you will see border installations attacked and as a consequence a militarisation of border zones.

How that plays out I don't know. But we should be doing everything up to and including, using our veto, to stop it happening.

Economies can recover.

murphaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As we are talking about identities, there is an identity that will never accept a visible manifestation of partition.

I think you will see border installations attacked and as a consequence a militarisation of border zones.

How that plays out I don't know. But we should be doing everything up to and including, using our veto, to stop it happening.

Economies can recover.

A criminal identity?

FrancieBrady

murphaph wrote: »

A criminal identity?

Call it whatever you want.
I think undermining what has been achieved would be a massive criminal act too. There you go.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As we are talking about identities, there is an identity that will never accept a visible manifestation of partition.

I think you will see border installations attacked and as a consequence a militarisation of border zones.

How that plays out I don't know. But we should be doing everything up to and including, using our veto, to stop it happening.

Economies can recover.

There won't be any support for those criminal attacks which will mainly come from the old smuggling wing of the IRA. They won't be able to sustain it and it will quickly die out.

After all, Sinn Fein are committed to peaceful democratic solutions and will work through the ballot box to make changes, won't they? A few dissidents will leave but they will be rejected by their peaceful community.

Unless of course, Sinn Fein, their supporters, their community and the ones who don't vote for them are only temporarily committed to peace so long as they get what they want.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There won't be any support for those criminal attacks which will mainly come from the old smuggling wing of the IRA. They won't be able to sustain it and it will quickly die out.

After all, Sinn Fein are committed to peaceful democratic solutions and will work through the ballot box to make changes, won't they? A few dissidents will leave but they will be rejected by their peaceful community.

Unless of course, Sinn Fein, their supporters, their community and the ones who don't vote for them are only temporarily committed to peace so long as they get what they want.

You completely underestimate the anger potential in border communities.

This will start with civil disobedience and has huge potential to escalate from there.
SF will have very little to do with it IMO. They will be paralysed and outflanked because they won't be able to defend the GFA anymore.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You completely underestimate the anger potential in border communities.

This will start with civil disobedience and has huge potential to escalate from there.
SF will have very little to do with it IMO. They will be paralysed and outflanked because they won't be able to defend the GFA anymore.

You live in a border community so you tend to overestimate the surrounding feeling and assume it is widespread. It simply isn't.

Civil disobedience? What form? Block the border, refuse to show passports and delay business, that would be silly and self-defeating. Refuse to fill in forms and destroy your business?

Not surprised that you predict that SF will abdicate leadership - did anyone expect them to do anything other than follow the crowd? After all, that's what they did on water charges and any number of other issues down South. They will wait and see how the protests go, join them if they are successful, condemn the dissidents if they are not.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You live in a border community so you tend to overestimate the surrounding feeling and assume it is widespread. It simply isn't.

Civil disobedience? What form? Block the border, refuse to show passports and delay business, that would be silly and self-defeating. Refuse to fill in forms and destroy your business?

Not surprised that you predict that SF will abdicate leadership - did anyone expect them to do anything other than follow the crowd? After all, that's what they did on water charges and any number of other issues down South. They will wait and see how the protests go, join them if they are successful, condemn the dissidents if they are not.

You love misquoting to bludgeon your anti SF agenda into any thread or post.
I didn't say anything about abdication. Read it again.

What do the Gardai or PSNI do if building is blocked by peaceful protest? Can you see how very tense and emotional that is gonna be?
I do live on the border and I have my eyes open, there a cross community anger here and no shortage of worry about the future.
That is a dangerous cocktail in this country.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You love misquoting to bludgeon your anti SF agenda into any thread or post.
I didn't say anything about abdication. Read it again.

What do the Gardai or PSNI do if building is blocked by peaceful protest? Can you see how very tense and emotional that is gonna be?
I do live on the border and I have my eyes open, there a cross community anger here and no shortage of worry about the future.
That is a dangerous cocktail in this country.

You said they will be paralysed. That is the same as abdicating leadership.

If Sinn Fein are a party of peace and progress, they will not take part in civil disobedience and they will condemn violence, showing leadership to their community. If they are a pathetic bunch of crowd-followers, they will say and do nothing.

What sort of a building will be blocked by peaceful protest?

We know you live on the border, we also know that is a small community and unrepresentative of people on this island.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You said they will be paralysed. That is the same as abdicating leadership.

If Sinn Fein are a party of peace and progress, they will not take part in civil disobedience and they will condemn violence, showing leadership to their community. If they are a pathetic bunch of crowd-followers, they will say and do nothing.

What sort of a building will be blocked by peaceful protest?

We know you live on the border, we also know that is a small community and unrepresentative of people on this island.

They will be paralysed because the GFA in the eyes of most of the Irish people will be in tatters.
That is not abdicating, there is nothing they will be able to do but watch the party fracture.

I know what is going on right along the .border. And I did indicate that it will escalate very quickly. Nationalists in the north do not have a history of abandoning each other.

cameramonkey

blanch152 wrote: »

You said they will be paralysed. That is the same as abdicating leadership.

If Sinn Fein are a party of peace and progress, they will not take part in civil disobedience and they will condemn violence, showing leadership to their community. If they are a pathetic bunch of crowd-followers, they will say and do nothing.

What sort of a building will be blocked by peaceful protest?

We know you live on the border, we also know that is a small community and unrepresentative of people on this island.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paralysis

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abdicate

Have a look at the meaning of the words.

murphaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Call it whatever you want.
I think undermining what has been achieved would be a massive criminal act too. There you go.

Would you call it criminal to attack border posts?

murphaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You love misquoting to bludgeon your anti SF agenda into any thread or post.
I didn't say anything about abdication. Read it again.

What do the Gardai or PSNI do if building is blocked by peaceful protest? Can you see how very tense and emotional that is gonna be?
I do live on the border and I have my eyes open, there a cross community anger here and no shortage of worry about the future.
That is a dangerous cocktail in this country.

Are you telling me normal law abiding citizens are preparing their Molotovs because they may be forced to cross a border with signs on it? I doubt private cars will even have to stop.

FrancieBrady

murphaph wrote: »

Are you telling me normal law abiding citizens are preparing their Molotovs because they may be forced to cross a border with signs on it? I doubt private cars will even have to stop.

So you don't know the meaning of 'escalate'? I mapped out a possible scenario before.

It will not be normal law abiding people who will attack. There will be those who will though.


When they closed the border before who do you think was at the forced filling of roads? If you don't think this can't escalate out of control again, if you want to ignore how society was sucked into it all before, then go ahead.
What I am saying is, that once again the 'responsibility' of governments is going to be tested.

murphaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you don't know the meaning of 'escalate'? I mapped out a possible scenario before.

It will not be normal law abiding people who will attack. There will be those who will though.


When they closed the border before who do you think was at the forced filling of roads? If you don't think this can't escalate out of control again, if you want to ignore how society was sucked into it all before, then go ahead.
What I am saying is, that once again the 'responsibility' of governments is going to be tested.

The closing of unapproved crossings did not cause the troubles. All those crossings were open before the troubles started!

There is no backdrop of the troubles here.

Roads may be closed to vehicular traffic. Smuggling will be rife if course. The sea border is the better option but a land border is no excuse for trouble a d any trouble should be dealt with harshly on both sides.

FrancieBrady

murphaph wrote: »

The closing of unapproved crossings did not cause the troubles. All those crossings were open before the troubles started!

There is no backdrop of the troubles here.

Roads may be closed to vehicular traffic. Smuggling will be rife if course. The sea border is the better option but a land border is no excuse for trouble a d any trouble should be dealt with harshly on both sides.

You just can't help moralising.

I don't really care what you or anyone else 'think' about the morality of what happens.

And you are wrong about what the closing of roads added to to the conflict.
If you cause bitterness then don't be suprised if support for more militant and violent action grows.

That 'escalate out of control' scenario again which the irresponsible will ignore.

Chips Lovell

OK, this thread has gone way off the original topic and is now yet another Northern Ireland thread (TM) where all the usual arguments are done to death.

Debate the topic at hand and leave the trench warfare at the door. Don't say you weren't warned.

Thanks

Edward M

Anyone in NI with an Irish passport should find themselves in a unique position post brexit, I wonder are there any of a loyalist identity looking for an Irish passport?

A Little Pony

Edward M wrote: »

Anyone in NI with an Irish passport should find themselves in a unique position post brexit, I wonder are there any of a loyalist identity looking for an Irish passport?

One of my brothers has one, my sister too. It's no big deal, multiple reasons for getting one.

listermint

A Little Pony wrote: »

One of my brothers has one, my sister too. It's no big deal, multiple reasons for getting one.

All of them hypocritical considering the stance you make in the Brexit thread. Do you not give out to both of them considering it's an EU passport which you hold with so much destain?

Very very deep hypocrisy

Edward M

I just came across this quote on another thread this morning, thought it might fit here too.
"Nationalism is an infantile disease, it is the measles of mankind", - Albert Einstein.

Dyr

Edward M wrote: »

I just came across this quote on another thread this morning, thought it might fit here too.
"Nationalism is an infantile disease, it is the measles of mankind", - Albert Einstein.

There's a theory that tribalism is partly an evolved response to the dangers of disease that "Outsiders" present so ol Albert was completely wrong

s7ryf3925pivug

Born and raised in Ireland with Irish parents and grandparents, Irish looking head, Irish accent. Nonetheless the intertwining of Catholicism with national identity, government and major institutions means I never felt any real sense of belonging or feeling of national identity.

Chips Lovell

Several posts deleted for failing to heed the previous mod warning to stay on topic.

FrancieBrady

Lillie Inexpensive Transmitter wrote: »

Born and raised in Ireland with Irish parents and grandparents, Irish looking head, Irish accent. Nonetheless the intertwining of Catholicism with national identity, government and major institutions means I never felt any real sense of belonging or feeling of national identity.

The government defines your identity or sense of belonging?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The government defines your identity or sense of belonging?

If government doesn't define identity, having the UK government in charge of Northern Ireland makes no difference to Irish identity and we don't need a united Ireland.

Samaris

munsterlegend wrote: »

There won't be a hard border as the people of this island won't tolerate it. You don't need a terror group for civil unrest. Northern Ireland is going to get some form of separate status from the UK and the dup and its ilk will just have to accept just like now it is different to every other part of the uk.

If the UK just refuse to do anything about a sea border/ refuse to take responsibilty in general for what happens between UK and Ireland after the magic date, it really doesn't matter what Ireland wants. I wish it did. But when push comes to shove, if it waffles into a cliff edge Brexit with no agreements, the Irish gov will have to take steps to protect the Republic and that will be by neccessity on the island (unless we're considering annexing NI to be able to control the ports!).

We can insist that up with this we shall not put, but if time runs out, this is what we will have to make the best of. Hopefully it doesn't come to that but it is naive to indicate that this is a unilateral ROI decision, or even a bilateral ROI/NI decision. The UK centre of power has not shown much consideration for either their bit or our part of the island so far.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

If government doesn't define identity, having the UK government in charge of Northern Ireland makes no difference to Irish identity and we don't need a united Ireland.

If government defines your identity, why would so many in northern Ireland define themselves as Irish?

It isn't a marker if identity, that is why.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If government defines your identity, why would so many in northern Ireland define themselves as Irish?

It isn't a marker if identity, that is why.

Even when I agree with that governments don't define identity and therefore don't matter to identity, you find a problem.;)

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Even when I agree with that governments don't define identity and therefore don't matter to identity, you find a problem.;)

I did wonder why you bothered.