Opinions on Irish identity

FrancieBrady

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

look to get peace and unity, you've first to make peace, and then comes the unity. If me identifying as Northern Irish and not hating anyone based on their background contributes only a little of that peace making, I am glad, if someone of only Irish identity, does not hate anyone of the British identity just because they identify as British, then I am glad they contribute to peace, If someone of only British identity, does not hate anyone of the Irish identity just because they identity as Irish, then I am glad they contribute to peace. I am aware that you don't need a third alternative identity such as Northern Irish to make peace, some of my closest friends are purely Irish, and purely British, and we get along great. There is signs of hatred, and signs of bigotry, lined in both sides of each community in Belfast, anti this, anti that, no side is more or less, every side has two different types of people, those who hate, and those love, those who reject, and those who accept, those who care only about their own, and those who care about everyone. Irelands problems can not be solved with violence, many can agree on that, to me only Irelands problems can be solved through the healing of old wounds, and the acceptance of both sides, and the acceptance of peoples rights to be who they want to be. I can only talk for Northern Ireland when I say there is much greater problems at hand in these six counties, we shouldn't be focused on keeping it green or keeping it orange, we should be focusing on keeping people alive, keeping people from being discriminated, keeping people from being attacked, keeping people from having to sleep on the streets, we shouldn't be concerning ourselves over century old narratives of us v them. What comes in the future, I do not know, will I and many others be accepted peacefully by those of the 26 counties, I do not know, but in the mean time, Im going to keep on doing what I am doing, and not contributing to hatred or sectarianism, but contributing to prosperity, and peace.

Not much to argue with there.
I, for one accept your sincerity and bona fides.
I would however caution against allowing your identity to be used by those who have an agenda to disparage one side or the other.
I have never pretended to be neutral, I am a republican, and I have aspirations in that regard. But I fully accept and believe in the 'principle of consent'.

Ulsterman96

I also believe in principle of consent, it is the democratic way, if there is a majority in favour of one thing, then we must respect that and the burden of trouble it may bring. I just hope old wounds can heal before new ones are opened with , because again it will be the people of the six counties who will have to deal with the most of it. And I respect that you're a republican, however, I personally can not say what I am politically, as I would only vote in support of a United Ireland, if the good out weighted the bad, but I do have good faith, that if it does happen in my lifetime, there will always be good people willing to put the dark past behind them and move forward together into a brighter future as one under a new Ireland for all 

FrancieBrady

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

I also believe in principle of consent, it is the democratic way, if there is a majority in favour of one thing, then we must respect that the burden it may bring. I just hope old wounds can heal before new ones are opened with , because again it will be the people of the six counties who will have to deal with the most of it. And I respect that you're a republican, however, I personally can not say what I am politically, as I would only vote in support of a United Ireland, if the good out weighted the bad, but I do have good faith, that if it does happen in my lifetime, there will always be good people willing to put the dark past behind them and move forward together into a brighter future as one under a new Ireland for all 

Do you accept as the data in the article posted shows, that the majority of those who identify as Northern Irish are voting the way of what their secondary identities are?
And if you don't have you any way of backing that up?

recedite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have never pretended to be neutral, I am a republican, and I have aspirations in that regard. But I fully accept and believe in the 'principle of consent'.

People can respect that, but the question is, what aspects if any, of the current RoI would you be prepared to concede to make a UI attractive to the Northern Irish?
Or is it all about them conforming to the existing ROI, and just enlarging it?

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

People can respect that, but the question is, what aspects if any, of the current RoI would you be prepared to concede to make a UI attractive to the Northern Irish?
Or is it all about them conforming to the existing ROI, and just enlarging it?

For another thread maybe But rest assured I accept that in the event of a UI that it will not be 'us taking over them'
It would have to be a place of equality and respect for all. A proper republic.

Ulsterman96

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

I also believe in principle of consent, it is the democratic way, if there is a majority in favour of one thing, then we must respect that the burden it may bring. I just hope old wounds can heal before new ones are opened with , because again it will be the people of the six counties who will have to deal with the most of it. And I respect that you're a republican, however, I personally can not say what I am politically, as I would only vote in support of a United Ireland, if the good out weighted the bad, but I do have good faith, that if it does happen in my lifetime, there will always be good people willing to put the dark past behind them and move forward together into a brighter future as one under a new Ireland for all 

Do you accept as the data in the article posted shows, that the majority of those who identify as Northern Irish are voting the way of what their secondary identities are?
And if you don't have you any way of backing that up?

I do accept that, its a strange identity, it needs a voice to redefine it, facts are facts, people from catholic backgrounds who identify as Northern Irish will most likely still vote SF, people from a protestant background will most likely vote DUP, but give them a serious alternative, a party that does not represent one side over the other, then maybe they will vote for it, but at the minute, that is unlikely. Anyhow I never intended this thread to get political, I merely wanted to know if there was an awareness of a new emerging identity, however how strange it is, and I am happy with the feedback it got, I understand that in my particular situation is strange, but of course, with honesty I have come across as in the middle, but I am still human I am still prone to influence, and just with that, if I someone in the future can persuade me on the benefits of a UI, then I will vote in favour, if someone can persuade me on the benefits of remaining a part of the UK, politically my loyalties lie with either, I will not vote for UI purely because of the injustice of how it was created and taken from its rightful owners, I will also not vote to remain out of fear that it will cause trouble if a UI is achieved, I will merely vote for my best interests and the interests of the people around me, so it is up to the people from both side to persuade me for my vote in a democratic, civilised manor, and I think that is what some people fear on both sides with the emergence of the young now considering themselves Northern Irish and aligning their views centre.

Ulsterman96

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

I also believe in principle of consent, it is the democratic way, if there is a majority in favour of one thing, then we must respect that the burden it may bring. I just hope old wounds can heal before new ones are opened with , because again it will be the people of the six counties who will have to deal with the most of it. And I respect that you're a republican, however, I personally can not say what I am politically, as I would only vote in support of a United Ireland, if the good out weighted the bad, but I do have good faith, that if it does happen in my lifetime, there will always be good people willing to put the dark past behind them and move forward together into a brighter future as one under a new Ireland for all 

Do you accept as the data in the article posted shows, that the majority of those who identify as Northern Irish are voting the way of what their secondary identities are?
And if you don't have you any way of backing that up?

I do accept that, its a strange identity, it needs a voice to redefine it, facts are facts, people from catholic backgrounds who identify as Northern Irish will most likely still vote SF, people from a protestant background will most likely vote DUP, but give them a serious alternative, a party that does not represent one side over the other, then maybe they will vote for it, but at the minute, that is unlikely. Anyhow I never intended this thread to get political, I merely wanted to know if there was an awareness of a new emerging identity, however how strange it is, and I am happy with the feedback it got, I understand that in my particular situation is strange, but of course, with honesty I have come across as in the middle, but I am still human I am still prone to influence, and just with that, if I someone in the future can persuade me on the benefits of a UI, then I will vote in favour, if someone can persuade me on the benefits of remaining a part of the UK, politically my loyalties lie with neither, I will not vote for UI purely because of the injustice of how it was created and taken from its rightful owners, I will also not vote to remain out of fear that it will cause trouble if a UI is achieved, I will merely vote for my best interests and the interests of the people around me, so it is up to the people from both side to persuade me for my vote in a democratic, civilised manor, and I think that is what some people fear on both sides with the emergence of the young now considering themselves Northern Irish and aligning their views centre.

made a mistake wasn't able to correct it, the correction is highlighted in bold

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

One thing is certain from reading this thread, and that is that the Northern Irish identity is certainly going to be met with outright hostility from republicanism, particularly extreme republicanism.

I really don't see how you can come to that conclusion from this thread.

Junkyard Tom's chart is also interesting, though not in the way he thinks. In the article that he gets it from, it is stated that "Northern Irish identifiers are more likely to vote for the centre ground parties such as the Alliance than their Irish and British counterparts, and they are also more likely to consider themselves to be neither unionist nor nationalist. The difference is statistically significant but very small." What this tells us is that there is a political opportunity available in the middle ground of Northern Irish politics, a party that is neutral on the constitutional issue but focussed on domestic political issues. While the Alliance Party is appealing to some of this constituency, it isn't making the best of it. Perhaps a party that concentrated initially on council elections could make headway.

At the last election, the centre ground won a very small vote. Sinn Fein even gained votes at the expense of the SDLP even when you would think that moderate nationalists would have liked to have representation in Westminister particularly with Brexit.

"Whatever the validity of any of these claims, and in spite of having no clear unique culture, flag, passport, anthem, language, shared history, currency, traditions of state, or any of the other usual trappings of national belonging, the Northern Irish identity is not going away anytime soon, and political representatives could do well to move to acknowledge this new and highly unlikely constituency."

Thanks again to Ulsterman for starting this thread which has probably been the only thread on Northern Irish politics on this forum in the last decade which has actually offered some optimism for the future in the form of his story and of others like him. Long may it continue.

I find it hard to see anything positive about that particular identity which just seems to be a rejection of everything, but not really positive about anything.

I think you are reading too much into it. At last elections, the middle ground was strongly rejected. Everything seems to have changed since last Christmas and the withdrawal of the 50,000 funding for Irish language courses, various scandals and Martin McGuinness pulling the plug on the assembly.

recedite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For another thread maybe But rest assured I accept that in the event of a UI that it will not be 'us taking over them'
It would have to be a place of equality and respect for all. A proper republic.

Under those circumstances I could see it happening, eventually.
In which case the NI identity could become a transition phase/facilitator for it. But only if the RoI also adapted.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

Under those circumstances I could see it happening, eventually.
In which case the NI identity could become a transition phase/facilitator for it. But only if the RoI also adapted.

Not when it (the Northern Irish identity) is voting for the status quo as shown by the data.

In all honesty, this identity is being hyped to be something it is plainly not.

Ulsterman96

blanch152 said:
One thing is certain from reading this thread, and that is that the Northern Irish identity is certainly going to be met with outright hostility from republicanism, particularly extreme republicanism. 

I personally have experienced both hostility (however not serious) from both sides of the divide, I have also experienced it whilst in Dublin (city), however funny enough, not whilst in Donegal, but I understand the criticism of me identifying as Northern Irish to someone who is only Irish it suggests many of things and confusion, most noticeably it suggests, because I don't just say Im Irish, then I must be protestant, which is barbaric, because Irishness has nothing to do with percentage of blood, or your religion, in my opinion anyhow 

Ulsterman96

FrancieBrady wrote: »

recedite wrote: »

Under those circumstances I could see it happening, eventually.
In which case the NI identity could become a transition phase/facilitator for it. But only if the RoI also adapted.

Not when it (the Northern Irish identity) is voting for the status quo as shown by the data.

In all honesty, this identity is being hyped to be something it is plainly not.

you are not giving it a chance to prove if it is or if it is not, the time has not come, it has no voice to represent it or define its boundaries, its only new, maybe its a form of escapism, but who's to say what it can or can not be, just accept, that there is people who define themselves by it or by Northern Irish-British, Northern Irish-Irish, Northern Irish-British and Irish as well as people who only go by Irish, or British or British and Irish. Its a complex matter, people have different reasons for identifying as Northern Irish, its not about identity politics, this thread was made for opinion on the identity, not the politics that might or might not surround it

recedite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not when it (the Northern Irish identity) is voting for the status quo as shown by the data.

Depends what you mean by the status quo.
If the status quo is mutual antagonism between militant republicans and militant loyalists, then its all about changing.
If the status quo is NI steadfastly refusing to be dominated by its larger neighbour to the south, then no change.

jm08

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

you are not giving it a chance to prove if it is or if it is not, the time has not come, it has no voice to represent it or define its boundaries, its only new, maybe its a form of escapism, but who's to say what it can or can not be, just accept, that there is people who define themselves by it or by Northern Irish-British, Northern Irish-Irish, Northern Irish-British and Irish as well as people who only go by Irish, or British or British and Irish. Its a complex matter, people have different reasons for identifying as Northern Irish, its not about identity politics, this thread was made for opinion on the identity, not the politics that might or might not surround it

If it eases unionists into thinking that they are also Irish as well as British, it is a good thing, but I seriously don't think that nationalists that consider themselves Irish only are going to somehow try and develop a new Northern Irish identity. For example, I can't see someone like Oisin McConville or Joe Brolly suddenly adapting this new identity of Northern Irish.

The difficulty for unionists is that they consider themselves only British, whereas the Scots consider themselves to be Scottish first and then British and similarly with English & Welsh first and British second.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

Depends what you mean by the status quo.
If the status quo is mutual antagonism between militant republicans and militant loyalists, then its all about changing.
If the status quo is NI steadfastly refusing to be dominated by its larger neighbour to the south, then no change.

I mean they are voting for both sides along the lines of what was their previous identities.
i.e. The status quo.

Ulsterman96

I posted recently, asking for opinion of my chosen identity of Northern Irish, and I was given great, honest feedback, and was posed what it meant to me.
 
like I stated in that thread, I am of mixed background, and do not feel a complete connection to my Irish side nor to my British side. 

So without bringing politics into this new thread, no hate, no sectarianism, or anti this or anti that, I just want to know what it means to be Irish to you, and you alone. 

coming from a mixed poor background in Belfast, were I was raised with the freedom to appreciate and to explore both sides of my making, to me, being raised, without religion Irish to me is a love for our beautiful island, an appreciation for the simple life, a strive for peace, the Irish people to me, are not those who have a Clare accent, or an Antrim accent, Irish to me is a cheerful spirit, no matter how dark of the moment, there will always be a smile or a joke, and some good old fashioned craic, that is inherited and spread the world over. Its the words of Drennan and Yeats, its the voice of Van Morrison, and the sounds of Rory Gallagher, its the modern fight of Frampton and McGregor, Its not the stereotypes you see on TV, its a feeling of pride inside that is amplified, and is noticed the world over to the point that when someone states that everyone loves the Irish, I have no doubt in that statement. 
so what does it mean to you?

Ulsterman96

"I seriously don't think that nationalists that consider themselves Irish only are going to somehow try and develop a new Northern Irish identity."
You're correct in this thinking, the data shows this exact thing, but with enough drive, maybe some day it can be changed, who knows

FrancieBrady

Can we just quash this please Ulsterman96

blanch152 wrote:

One thing is certain from reading this thread, and that is that the Northern Irish identity is certainly going to be met with outright hostility from republicanism, particularly extreme republicanism.

Have you encountered 'outright hostility from republicanism, particularly extreme republicanism' on this thread?

If so, where?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

EndaHonesty

To me it means putting a comma, wherever the fcuk I want...

Sean_Cuttle

I feel that people living in Northern Ireland are in the position to decide for themselves. if you feel that your Irish, then that's your decision. If you want to say your British, Then that's your decision aswell.

Sean_Cuttle

Being Irish to me means that i was either born in Ireland or hold an Irish Passport

Sean_Cuttle

Sean_Cuttle wrote: »

Being Irish to me means that i was either born in Ireland or hold an Irish Passport

I work with a lad from India who has an Irish Passport, his nationality is detailed on it and it's not Irish

Sean_Cuttle

Augeo wrote: »

I work with a lad from India who has an Irish Passport, his nationality is detailed on it and it's not Irish

**** sorry, I wrote that wrong. I meant to say hold an Irish citizenship

Ulsterman96

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I cant say I agree, considering there are many in the six counties who feel abandoned by their fellow irishmen in the south, but I respect your believe, can I ask why, you feel it only means being born in the 26 rather than being born anywhere on the island or to Irish parents?

Ulsterman96

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"outright hostility from republicanism, particularly extreme republicanism" that is tad extreme, I have not met any personal insults, honestly, being from Belfast, I was expecting [/font][font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that I might have been met with hostilely towards my acceptances and pride in the fact that I am technically partially the product of the plantation of Ulster, of my Northern Irish identity is only here because of the partition, but I believe I have been welcomed greatly in this thread, I have been challenged with questions, that seemed to have underlying themes of disdain hidden beneath questions. The only thing that was posed to me, which got under my skin was the use of an image of Northern Ireland supporters with flags, which seemed like a play, and then the one sided claim that loyalists wave their flags to show tribalism, which of course they do, and I responded with asking the question is it any different to a republican waving a flag, and this was eaten a part, which kinda made me seem like some hostility. But  in my honest opinion, I see people centre like me, people of both faiths, both sides, both nations as a threat to those sides, cause to attack the creditability of those representing both sides and wishing to make peace, is to then attack ones self, and show ones selfs, ones own flaws. 

But overall, I feel welcomed and I appreciate the support, and I appreciate the challenges posed, its good old honest debate, but when it gets into insults, us and them, politics, I will have no time for people who lower themselves to that level, I was born in Belfast, I am too familiar with that stuff, and dont tolerate any of it from anyone. [/font]

dudara

I could give an answer about being an Irish citizen, being born here etc.

But for me, what reminds me each and every time that I'm Irish are
(A) no matter where I am in the world, seeing the Aer Lingus shamrock on the plane tail fin and knowing that that plane will take me home
(B) being able to understand a myriad accents from Donegal to West Cork, inner city Dublin to Waterford, in English or in Irish, and knowing that we're all Irish

To me, being Irish is about a sense of place and culture.

recedite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I mean they are voting for both sides along the lines of what was their previous identities.
i.e. The status quo.

OK, well fair point. But again, that depends on what the vote is about.
When voting for Stormont elections that is mainly true.
But when voting in a referendum (eg Brexit) or a future UI referendum they show a flexibility.
Hence the reason that a UI is not a given now, even though the demographics have probably changed enough to allow it if everybody was voting according to their old identities.

Even when considering the Stormont voting pattern, we have to consider what the available choices are. Perhaps the Alliance party are not making the most of this NI identity cohort. I don't know enough about it to guess why that is. It also surprises me that the Lib Dems in Britain get so little support, even though they seem to say all the right things, and push all the right buttons. Maybe they are just too dull.
I suspect that its down to human psychology. People will tend to vote for a more extreme version of what they actually want, in the belief that what they actually get in the end, will be about right. Pretty much the same way as you might start off negotiations to buy something with a ridiculous offer, knowing that you will be haggled back anyway, hopefully to what your real position was at the start.
In other words, you might vote hardline republican just to counter the hardline unionists, and vice versa.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

OK, well fair point. But again, that depends on what the vote is about.
When voting for Stormont elections that is mainly true.
But when voting in a referendum (eg Brexit) or a future UI referendum they show a flexibility.
Hence the reason that a UI is not a given now, even though the demographics have probably changed enough to allow it if everybody was voting according to their old identities.

Even when considering the Stormont voting pattern, we have to consider what the available choices are. Perhaps the Alliance party are not making the most of this NI identity cohort. I don't know enough about it to guess why that is. It also surprises me that the Lib Dems in Britain get so little support, even though they seem to say all the right things, and push all the right buttons. Maybe they are just too dull.
I suspect that its down to human psychology. People will tend to vote for a more extreme version of what they actually want, in the belief that what they actually get in the end, will be about right. Pretty much the same way as you might start off negotiations to buy something with a ridiculous offer, knowing that you will be haggled back anyway, hopefully to what your real position was at the start.
In other words, you might vote hardline republican just to counter the hardline unionists, and vice versa.

A UI vote will always be about the pragmatic. It will not be informed by misty eyed romanticism.
That is why Brexit could well be a huge game-changer. But that remains to be seen.

I contend that the reason the Alliance are not capitalising on this new identity is because there is nothing concrete about it to capitalise on.
It is a disparate and multi faceted identity.
There are no indications whatsoever, that I can see, that this identity is cohesive in what it wants. And looking at the data I cannot see where that cohesion is going to come from.

recedite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A UI vote will always be about the pragmatic. It will not be informed by misty eyed romanticism.

I agree (mostly) but maybe that's where the NI identity comes in.
Unlike its predecessors, its more pragmatic than dogmatic. Therefore open to whatever is on offer from either RoI or UK.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

I agree (mostly) but maybe that's where the NI identity comes in.
Unlike its predecessors, its more pragmatic than dogmatic. Therefore open to whatever is on offer from either RoI or UK.

You wondered why the Alliance hasn't gained? If it was more pragmatic than dogmatic then the Alliance would be unassailable.
I see no evidence for what you say.

Junkyard Tom

Interesting, if somewhat gloomy, piece on eamonnmallie.com that touches on a lot of the issues discussed in this thread.

Here's the salient point in my view:

Given the inevitability of losing their previously inbuilt majority, one could argue that, instead of incessant curmudgeonly verbal sniping at anything perceived as Irish – especially Sinn Fein promoted Irish, it would seem obvious that [the DUP] should have, and if it’s not too late, still should mount a charm offensive to woo those of a mildly nationalist persuasion into designing this province into a place which retains and continues to develop its essential Northern Irishness.

The simple fact of the matter is that the future of the north's place under UK jurisdiction is out of unionists' hands.

jcd5971

Its a tough one. I never really consider it much, a good friend i work with though has an odd reaction, he is one of the most open welcoming guys you'd ever meet to any race colour or creed, but he goes mental whenever he sees a foreign national say there irish after getting a passport/citizenship etc. he is all for them living working here etc. and rights etc but seems to resent this one aspect of it, I always found it a weird stance to take.

FrancieBrady

Questions about what it is to be Irish do not belong on a politics forum, simply because it has much much more to do with culture, heritage, place than it has to do with politics. Questions on a Northern Irish identity(as this thread originally was about) are acceptable imo.

It seems to me to change your identity to signify something about yourself, in the context of the conflict/war on this island, then that is a political decision. However much you claim the opposite.
Ian Paisley had something to say about that if I recall correctly.
Even if it is to signify (as per the OP) that you have no interest in the political conflict/war, call it what you will.
There is nothing in a heritage, culture, place context that these subsets have that is unique to them.
What is unique about them is that they exclude something to politically identify themselves.
For instance, I don't turn my back on the British involvement on this island. it is part of me, is a part of our heritage and history. I don't wish to wipe the physical evidence presence off this island. Nor wipe the history of the cyclical conflicts etc.
I am quite happy to accept anyone who adapts a different identity for whatever reason, as long as that identity is respectful.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Questions about what it is to be Irish do not belong on a politics forum, simply because it has much much more to do with culture, heritage, place than it has to do with politics. Questions on a Northern Irish identity(as this thread originally was about) are acceptable imo.

It seems to me to change your identity to signify something about yourself, in the context of the conflict/war on this island, then that is a political decision. However much you claim the opposite.
Ian Paisley had something to say about that if I recall correctly.
Even if it is to signify (as per the OP) that you have no interest in the political conflict/war, call it what you will.
There is nothing in a heritage, culture, place context that these subsets have that is unique to them.
What is unique about them is that they exclude something to politically identify themselves.
For instance, I don't turn my back on the British involvement on this island. it is part of me, is a part of our heritage and history. I don't wish to wipe the physical evidence presence off this island. Nor wipe the history of the cyclical conflicts etc.
I am quite happy to accept anyone who adapts a different identity for whatever reason, as long as that identity is respectful.

Who changed their identity? The OP didn't.

He just feels from Northern Ireland, that it is a different place to the rest of the UK and a different place to the rest of this island. That is how he feels, that is what he believes he belongs to. Nothing wrong with that.

murphaph

Ireland's identity is surely changing too. The republic is rapidly becoming genuinely secular. It has more liberal laws on the rights of our fellow citizens who happen to be gay than those in NI. I'm not sure the conservative Catholics in NI would fit into our more liberal (fair) republic too well. The Bible bashing prods definitely wouldn't.

I'm hopeful that we'll soon be able to stop the export of our women to GB for terminations and will be able to look after them at home. I don't think that referendum would pass if the generally conservative NI electorate had a say in the matter so I'm grateful they don't.

recedite

murphaph wrote: »

I'm not sure the conservative Catholics in NI would fit into our more liberal (fair) republic too well. The Bible bashing prods definitely wouldn't.

Perhaps both of these groups are being left behind by the emerging NI identity though?
I suspect that the NI identity if added to the RoI identity, would generate an improved new UI identity, better than either.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

Perhaps both of these groups are being left behind by the emerging NI identity though?
I suspect that the NI identity if added to the RoI identity, would generate an improved new UI identity, better than either.

When they are voting for the same people they are underwriting the status quo. That is what is happening, there is no discernible divergence from the norm.
I think some, for their own agendas, are projecting tbh. Including media reporting on it.

recedite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When they are voting for the same people they are underwriting the status quo. That is what is happening, there is no discernible divergence from the norm.

Its actually worse than that. The emergence of the NI identity roughly corresponds with the demise of SDLP and OUP (roughly assuming these are the more moderate versions of SF and DUP)
So voting patterns are the opposite to what you might expect.
I don't think many are "projecting" a false image of themselves though.
The answer is likely to be complicated and multi-faceted.
Political parties in the north have engineered and exaggerated various crises that demonise their opposites, while presenting themselves as the antidote. This encourages people to vote for extremists, just to counter the other extremists. This effect is magnified when people go in for "strategic voting". For example if you want stop a marginal DUP or SF candidate from gaining a seat, there is no point voting for an Alliance SDLP or OUP candidate who is way down in the ratings. You have to vote for the DUP or SF candidate who opposes them.

The middle ground is bland, and finds it hard to excite people at election time. People don't like voting for a candidate who has little or no chance of winning a seat, even if that candidate is the best fit for them.

Whats needed is a more exciting party to represent the middle ground, one that seems like it could be a winner.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When they are voting for the same people they are underwriting the status quo. That is what is happening, there is no discernible divergence from the norm.
I think some, for their own agendas, are projecting tbh. Including media reporting on it.

Correct, and when people vote for either of the two large sectarian parties with dubious pasts, they are only preserving the rot. The sooner we see the demise of the DUP and SF, the better.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Correct, and when people vote for either of the two large sectarian parties with dubious pasts, they are only preserving the rot. The sooner we see the demise of the DUP and SF, the better.

There is no doubt that there are those who would throw out the progress that has been made since the GFA just because of who it was that made that progress.

recedite

While we do accept that it was the extremists that made the GFA possible, you should also accept that it was the extremists who were causing the problems in the first place.
Like the nutter who said "It feels so good when you stop banging your head off the wall". We are grateful that it stopped.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no doubt that there are those who would throw out the progress that has been made since the GFA just because of who it was that made that progress.

And just like the UK dumped Churchill in peacetime, so does Northern Ireland need to dump SF and the DUP. They belong to history.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

While we do accept that it was the extremists that made the GFA possible, you should also accept that it was the extremists who were causing the problems in the first place.
Like the nutter who said "It feels so good when you stop banging your head off the wall". We are grateful that it stopped.

My view is that the extremists were 'symptoms' of a bigger problem. And I am happy they are now out of the picture.
I don't see anything 'extreme' about how the main parties conduct themelves except unfortunately, the DUP.
If somebody wishes to illustrate a different view of politics now I am all eyes to read it.
May be off topic though.

The Golden Miller

recedite wrote: »

While we do accept that it was the extremists that made the GFA possible, you should also accept that it was the extremists who were causing the problems in the first place.
Like the nutter who said "It feels so good when you stop banging your head off the wall". We are grateful that it stopped.

But a certain impasse lies when one set of extremists have adopted the institutions of progress in good spirit, while another hasn't, yet certain people refuse to acknowledge this.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

And just like the UK dumped Churchill in peacetime, so does Northern Ireland need to dump SF and the DUP. They belong to history.

The people decide that one. Has this new identity had anything to say other than in the mind of a lazy journalist about it?
No, it hasn't.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Correct, and when people vote for either of the two large sectarian parties with dubious pasts, they are only preserving the rot. The sooner we see the demise of the DUP and SF, the better.

Why do you regard Sinn Fein as sectarian? I think they are a lot of things, but I don't see them as sectarian now.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My view is that the extremists were 'symptoms' of a bigger problem. And I am happy they are now out of the picture.
I don't see anything 'extreme' about how the main parties conduct themelves except unfortunately, the DUP.
If somebody wishes to illustrate a different view of politics now I am all eyes to read it.
May be off topic though.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But a certain impasse lies when one set of extremists have adopted the institutions of progress in good spirit, while another hasn't, yet certain people refuse to acknowledge this.

jm08 wrote: »

Why do you regard Sinn Fein as sectarian? I think they are a lot of things, but I don't see them as sectarian now.

And I am sure that there are many in the unionist camp who do not see the DUP as sectarian.

There is no doubt that from the material available for sale on their website to the presence in their ranks of terrorists through their treatment of Mairia Cahill and Paudie McGahan, the defence of the "good" republicans, etc. (and I could go on and on) that SF is still a party with deep sectarian roots.

As I have said many times, a plague on both their houses.

Ulsterman96

both are routed in sectarianism, and both only represent their own people, though it can be said that SF are changing their image to more drastically to represent a larger community, aka the minority community, which even thought it can be seen as a stunt to make them seem the lesser of two evils, its still a good thing that the minority community i.e those of different sexual orientation are fairly being represented as I believe it is peoples rights to love those of the same sex. 
My protestant grandfather lived in a area that mainly voted DUP representatives, but they did nothing for the community and he would always argue with them when they called to his door asking for their vote, he considered himself British, but he voted SF purely because they got things done for him as he was a protestant willing to vote for them. He always told me a United Ireland was coming in my lifetime.