Discovery 1x05 – "Choose Your Pain" [** SPOILERS **]

Inviere

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Also in previous episode Voq was tolk he would have to give up everything to get into position of power. What if Tyler is Voq who is genetically reconstructed to appear human and given Tylers "life" to inflitrate Discovery to learn about the spore drive and potentially steal it ? Ala Arne Darvin from original series.

Very interesting theory! Hmm...

Johnny Storm

When the two lads were brushing their teeth, were they wearing Star Fleet-issue jammies? if so did the jammies have mini comm badges on them? I cant imagine that being very comforable :eek:

PhiloCypher

Evade wrote: »

To prevent the deaths of hundreds of billions, including Romulans, and that nearly broke Sisko. I said before that STD is trying to jump into the war parts of DS9 without previously having shown the characters being regular Starfleet officers and I think that's why it doesn't work as well.

While I agree it would have been nice to have been given a baseline for these characters before the war started * , if they were dead set on setting up the conflict /cold war with the klingons I'm glad they are getting it out of the way early so that we get to see the fallout, something we never got to see after DS9's Dominion war other then in the books. Setting up the conflict and stalemate we see in TOS early in the show's run will also allow the Discovery to actually become a ship of discovery again (with occasional TOS style run ins with the Klingons of course) which would surely make everyone happy.

* perhaps a good compromise would be a lower decks style episode showing what the crew was like before the Battle of the Binaries , before Lorca took command.

PhiloCypher

Evade wrote: »

I'm pretty sure none is a good answer. We could ask how much slavery, which it could be argued the tardigrade was, is acceptable too. You might find the answer is the same as the torture one.

You could say the answer to any of the moral questions Star Trek has posed over its 50 year history were obvious to any rational person, should they not have posed them because the answer was obvious to some or even most ?

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

What about the Mk 1 EMH's being used to mine ore?

That's a good point and calls back to the Measure of a Man as to what constitutes a sentient life form which some or all of the EMHs might be. Maybe that could have been explored if this was post Nemesis.

Inviere wrote: »

You make out like it's a mirror universe ship & crew

Personal speculation but just in case

or maybe just a captain.

Inviere wrote: »

with them all complicit torturing a sentient being. They weren't all complicit. Some went to extreme lengths to change the order of things, which is, by definition, Star Trek.

I was only following orders is a bad excuse and didn't help the crew of the Equinox.

Evade

PhiloCypher wrote: »

You could say the answer to any of the moral questions Star Trek has posed over its 50 year history were obvious to any rational person, should they not have posed them because the answer was obvious to some or even most ?

Torture and slavery are easy ones but Siskos trolley problem of bringing the Romulans into the Dominion War, not so easy and that's what I want more of.

brainfreeze

Evade wrote: »

Yes, and that's why they're the bad guys. Having the main cast believing the ends justify the means is pretty antithetical to Star Treks usual message.

Someone else mentioned the pale moonlight, but that is still "the ends justify the means" even if it nearly broke Sisko. He was sending millions of romulans to their deaths based on a lie, to save potentially billions.

Doctor Bashir was going to sabotage the federation war effort so the Dominion would win, because in his mind saving lives under dominion rule was better than prolonging an unwinnable war. That's the end justifies the means. On the plus side, the same writer would go onto explore this theme more in depth with BSG a few years later, with the creation of Gaius Baltar.

Most controversially, the Federation won the war by withholding a cure to a biological weapon created and already deployed by their own rouge intelligence wing (Section 31). Now you could say Section 31 are the bad guys and do not represent star fleet, however star fleet didn't give the founders the cure once they had it. The Star Fleet Council actively decided not to, choosing genocide instead to win the war. That's the end justifies the means. It was Odo, a changling, that brought peace to the alpha quadrant, not Star Fleet.

These are all themes that have been explored before in Trek, so although Discovery is different from say the philosophy of the TOS, it's certainly not alien to the Star Trek we saw in the 90s. I think it's still an important (and realistic) theme to explore, that when under pressure, Star Fleet becomes just as bad as the rest of them. That's apart of Trek lore now, so it would be weird for Discovery to erase it.

“Let me tell you something about humans, nephew. They’re a wonderful, friendly people—as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time, and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon"

All the above aside, I believe Discovery maybe a section 31 ship.

server down

Evade wrote: »

Shades of grey and moral questions are fine but "how much torture is acceptable?" is going a little to dark for Star Trek.

They pretty much stopped when they realised the issue. Well, after one more jump. Then the human took over.

The end justifying the means is often a staple of Star Trek. The premise of what is possibly the best TOS episode, The City on the Edge of Forever, is in fact based on that utilitarian dilemma. I wont go into the specific dilemma but it is a big one.

In Wrath of Khan Spock says:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

to which Kirk replies:

"Or the One"

Later in the movies they keep coming back to utilitarian philosophy to neither confirm nor deny its logic. Its clearly a grey area.

Goodshape

server down wrote: »

In Wrath of Khan Spock says:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

to which Kirk replies:

"Or the One"

And in Search for Spock, Kirk takes it upon himself to hijack a starship, travel to a forbidden planet, risk his life, his ship, and his bridge crew, to rescue just one person.

"Because the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."


It's almost as though people aren't 100% perfect 100% of the time.

James Brown

I'm beginning to really like it. I suppose if you go in expecting the usual Mormons in Space it's different, so possibly disappointing.
I'm glad they ditched the creature.
The Klingon war raged for years so I can't see any other main story for some time.

What I love about this incarnation of the Klingons is they actually seem as violent and rough as they're made out to be. They're supposed to be these battle-loving-no-prisoner-taking species, but I don't know if we've ever seen it as being depicted in any franchise. Sure, we've seen them at war, but I don't think we've seen the other aspects.

Greyjoy

server down wrote: »

In Wrath of Khan Spock says:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

to which Kirk replies:

"Or the One"

Later in the movies they keep coming back to utilitarian philosophy to neither confirm nor deny its logic. Its clearly a grey area.

The difference is that it's the 'One' in question (Spock) who is choosing to make the sacrifice himself. With the spore drive the Discovery crew are forcing the Tardigrade to make the sacrifice.

server down

Greyjoy wrote: »

The difference is that it's the 'One' in question (Spock) who is choosing to make the sacrifice himself. With the spore drive the Discovery crew are forcing the Tardigrade to make the sacrifice.

Yeh, but they have sacrificed others in the past as well. Of course in Spock's case his option was to die anyway, with the crew or without, so it isnt quite the same - but he did articulate that philosophy.

PhiloCypher

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'm beginning to really like it. I suppose if you go in expecting the usual Mormons in Space it's different, so possibly disappointing.
I'm glad they ditched the creature.
The Klingon war raged for years so I can't see any other main story for some time.

We're not going to see years of war in Discovery it will be one season/one year in show time of open conflict before some type of treaty of Algeron is signed where the Klingons agree to a cessation of open hostilities if the federation ban the use of spore tech,and we then transition into the stalemate we see in TOS . A few skirmishes but not outright war . I personally wouldn't see that as in conflict with the Decades of war Picard describes in TNG.

Goodshape

Greyjoy wrote: »

The difference is that it's the 'One' in question (Spock) who is choosing to make the sacrifice himself. With the spore drive the Discovery crew are forcing the Tardigrade to make the sacrifice.

Haven't you ever heard of the no-win scenario?

How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?


Additionally, Dianna Trio sends Geordi to his death as part of the Bridge Officer's Test.


It's almost as though situations don't work out 100% perfectly 100% of the time.

Evade

PhiloCypher wrote: »

We're not going to see years of war in Discovery it will be one season/one year in show time of open conflict before some type of treaty of Algeron is signed where the Klingons agree to a cessation of open hostilities if the federation ban the use of spore tech,and we then transition into the stalemate we see in TOS . A few skirmishes but not outright war . I personally wouldn't see that as in conflict with the Decades of war Picard describes in TNG.

I don't think that scenario would work. If the tech was just banned it would probably be the first thing to be reintroduced when the Federation and Klingon Empire resigned the Khitomer Accords and allied themselves to fight the Dominion. After all the Treaty of Algeron was bent a lot once the Defiant started using its cloaking device in the Alpha Quadrant.

SimonTemplar

Rainn Wilson reminded me so much of Dwight I expect this episodes to be included in future box sets of The Office.

AMKC

PhiloCypher wrote: »

We're not going to see years of war in Discovery it will be one season/one year in show time of open conflict before some type of treaty of Algeron is signed where the Klingons agree to a cessation of open hostilities if the federation ban the use of spore tech,and we then transition into the stalemate we see in TOS . A few skirmishes but not outright war . I personally wouldn't see that as in conflict with the Decades of war Picard describes in TNG.

I wonder when the Klingons come in contact with the Romulans. I am not saying I want to see the Romulans in this show as I don't but maybe the Romulans started to attack the Klingons and they were a bigger treat to them so they stopped fighting with the Federation except for the odd skirmish as in TOS.

server down

SimonTemplar wrote: »

Rainn Wilson reminded me so much of Dwight I expect this episodes to be included in future box sets of The Office.

I thought was totally different. Maybe he reminded you of Dwight because you knew the actor. I thought it was a fine performance.

server down

Evade wrote: »

I don't think that scenario would work. If the tech was just banned it would probably be the first thing to be reintroduced when the Federation and Klingon Empire resigned the Khitomer Accords and allied themselves to fight the Dominion. After all the Treaty of Algeron was bent a lot once the Defiant started using its cloaking device in the Alpha Quadrant.

My guess is it’s not just harmful to other creatures but humans and possibly the universe itself.

AtomicHorror

pixelburp wrote: »

(and speaking of Captain Saru, the little easter egg mention of Jonathan Archer & Captain Pike was nice).

Also Decker, previously seen in TOS, and Robert April, previously seen in TAS as the first captain of Enterprise, though I think moved on from that post about 6 years by the time of Discovery.

LeinsterDub

The Guild will be extremely unhappy with this unauthorised navigator.

The spice spores must flow

spookwoman

He who controls the spores controls the universe

spookwoman

Something that i copped after rewatching it Lorca says to the female klingon
You're seeking solace
in the arms of a human male.
We don't even have the right
number of organs for you.

helimachoptor

In the TNG ep when Worf had a broken back Polaski stated that pretty much every major organ in a Klingon body had a redundant version, maybe thats what he was on about.

Or it could be as simple as if she has 2 hearts the guy will never love her as much as she loves him

The_Valeyard

Do Klingons now have more than one penis?

Inviere

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Do Klingons now have more than one penis?

I don't think it was ever stated that they didn't

The_Valeyard

Inviere wrote: »

I don't think it was ever stated that they didn't

So will will say......3

spookwoman

4 balls gonna have problems walking

The_Valeyard

spookwoman wrote: »

4 balls gonna have problems walking

Unless they are lined up like Newtons Cradle.

PhiloCypher

Speaking of bollox, how ****e were those peacocked Klingon raiders . What were they thinking , they look completely out of place in the Klingon design aesthetic.

Also am I the only one thinking that by pointedly describing the ship that captures Lorca as a D7 and not giving themselves wiggle room by calling it a D6 , they are unequivocally retconning the klingons. They know if we saw an OG D7 it would be confirmation to us that TOS style Klingons exist in this time line and some sort if explanation would be needed (like the Augment virus) to rationalise why there were two Types of Klingon .

AtomicHorror

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Speaking of bollox, how ****e were those peacocked Klingon raiders . What were they thinking , they look completely out of place in the Klingon design aesthetic.

Also am I the only one thinking that by pointedly describing the ship that captures Lorca as a D7 and not giving themselves wiggle room by calling it a D6 , they are unequivocally retconning the klingons. They know if we saw an OG D7 it would be confirmation to us that TOS style Klingons exist in this time line and some sort if explanation would be needed (like the Augment virus) to rationalise why there were two Types of Klingon .

Not clear- the producers have suggested Discovery will move aesthetically more towards TOS as the show progresses.

FutureGuy

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Speaking of bollox, how ****e were those peacocked Klingon raiders . What were they thinking , they look completely out of place in the Klingon design aesthetic.

Also am I the only one thinking that by pointedly describing the ship that captures Lorca as a D7 and not giving themselves wiggle room by calling it a D6 , they are unequivocally retconning the klingons. They know if we saw an OG D7 it would be confirmation to us that TOS style Klingons exist in this time line and some sort if explanation would be needed (like the Augment virus) to rationalise why there were two Types of Klingon .

There are 24 separate house and i would think there are many versions of each Klingon design. Therefore the D7 here may be a variant. There are also multiple style of Klingon - the guards in this episode look alot more like Klingons than T'Kuvma's house.

I have faith that it will be explained.

Evade

FutureGuy wrote: »

There are 24 separate house and i would think there are many versions of each Klingon design. Therefore the D7 here may be a variant.

I have faith that it will be explained.

A variant would be one with a shorter neck or different forward section or fat hips like the Enterprise B, this is clearly a different class of ship.

The only explanation for this being a D7 is if it's a role descriptor like battleship or corvette and not a class designation. But that doesn't fit with every other use of D7.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

A variant would be one with a shorter neck or different forward section or fat hips like the Enterprise B, this is clearly a different class of ship.

The only explanation for this being a D7 is if it's a role descriptor like battleship or corvette and not a class designation. But that doesn't fit with every other use of D7.

Could be that the D-classes were codes assigned by Starfleet to ships in various discrete mass ranges, used in the absence of intelligence on Klingon technology and difficulties with the language... would the use in the canon to date contradict that? Do the Klingons themselves ever call their ships "D-X class"?

By TNG era, Starfleet was referring to all Klingon ships by their native names, perhaps reflecting a much deeper knowledge on their part.

Goodshape

I suspect they're just updating things tbh.

They've said they will "acknowledge" the Enterprise's 5-year mission, if Discovery reaches that timeline, but I haven't taken that to mean things will start to look like an episode of TOS.

I don't mean to excuse bad designs at all, but – I've said before – Star Trek isn't a documentary about contemporary events. Our depictions of ancient Rome, or biblical era stores, or anything historical, get 'updated' all the time as we learn more about those eras and advance our own technologies and thus our ability to depict them.

Our ability to depict future events has advanced and improved too. It's the stories that matter. Star Trek is big enough and has been on long enough, and is much more than just the look of a few ships etc.


And none of that is to say I like the new designs. Honestly don't feel I can make that call yet though. Our view of the Klingon ship, whatever it was, was far too close, dark, and fleeting. Really wish they'd just step back, put the camera down somewhere, and walk away. I want to see these ships!!

AtomicHorror

Goodshape wrote: »

I suspect they're just updating things tbh.

They've said they will "acknowledge" the Enterprise's 5-year mission, if Discovery reaches that timeline, but I haven't taken that to mean things will start to look like an episode of TOS.

Well Enterprise is already out there under Pike's command- Talos IV was about 2 years prior, so it's possible Spock is still serving too. They're probably more likely to encounter the ship at this time point than after they head out onto the frontier on a long term mission.

Anyway I've seen a few comments floating about regarding the move towards a TOS aesthetic, for example:

https://www.inverse.com/article/36125-star-trek-discovery-uniforms-classic-tos-colors-the-cage

Goodshape

I do miss the colours. Discovery's uniforms are a big step up from Enterprise's blue jumpsuits, but they're still blue :-/

AtomicHorror wrote:

Well Enterprise is already out there under Pike's command- Talos IV was about 2 years prior, so it's possible Spock is still serving too.

Pretty sure they've said unequivocally that we will not be seeing Spock in Discovery. I'd be surprised if we see more than a passing mention of the USS Enterprise, similar to not having the 1701-D show up in DS9. They're doing their own thing. Not a "prequel to TOS", just something else that is happening in Star Trek's 23rd century. Space is big.

PhiloCypher

Goodshape wrote: »

I do miss the colours. Discovery's uniforms are a big step up from Enterprise's blue jumpsuits, but they're still blue :-/




Pretty sure they've said unequivocally that we will not be seeing Spock in Discovery. I'd be surprised if we see more than a passing mention of the USS Enterprise, similar to not having the 1701-D show up in DS9. They're doing their own thing. Not a "prequel to TOS", just something else that is happening in Star Trek's 23rd century. Space is big.

We've seen a few changes of uniform over the course of TNG and DS9 so hopefully we'll see them transition to the TOS style over the next few seasons.

fxotoole

Spear wrote: »

Anyone else reckon Ash Tyler is a setup and a double agent?

Potential future episode spoiler:

Edit: seems my cynicism is confirmed by some casting info.

Interesting theory.

Here's another theory floating around:

Captain Lorca is an impostor from the Mirror Universe, hence the Tribble and Gorn skeleton

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Could be that the D-classes were codes assigned by Starfleet

Except I believe the D-7 designation is also used by the Klingons themselves in DS9's Once More Unto the Breach and possibly other episodes.