NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2017-18

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Not in 3 weeks agreed but 6-7 months of that in pre-season and you'll change an awful lot about your body's efficiency, explosiveness and power output (my primary degree is in Sports Science). He's a different player - physically and mentally - than he was last year; and he's in the best situation for him. Of course he's going to look better. He could do all the physical and mental work and still be in OKC and look a bit better, but nothing like this.

If that was just weight loss he'd have no power or strength gains btw.

The pic is 3 weeks of difference. You said he looks completely out of shape in the first pic and the 2nd pic is simply a 3 week difference of a 10lb weight loss so the difference is not enormous that's my point.
I don't see the need to point out your primary degree, I don't think it has any relevance to your point or mine.

I don't understand the bolded part and what relevance that has to anything I said tbh. The posted picture clearly says a loss of 10lbs. I don't really know what any gain in power/strength has to do with anything. Perhaps you can elaborate....

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

The pic is 3 weeks of difference. You said he looks completely out of shape in the first pic and the 2nd pic is simply a 3 week difference of a 10lb weight loss so the difference is not enormous that's my point.
I don't see the need to point out your primary degree, I don't think it has any relevance to your point or mine.

I don't understand the bolded part and what relevance that has to anything I said tbh. The posted picture clearly says a loss of 10lbs. I don't really know what any gain in power/strength has to do with anything. Perhaps you can elaborate....

I stated my Sports Science qualification just to show I have more than a layman's knowledge of this subject matter - it does, therefore, have relevance.

A 3 week weight loss like that is more than just laying off the burgers, it also indicates a significant increase and/or change in exercise regime.

Weight loss on it's own without strength and/or endurance training will diminish any strength and power.

This is not a guy who's "lost a bit of timber" and is now playing at All Star level. He's completely transformed his body from strength, power and explosiveness perspectives over 6/7months to almost a year now and that will has had a massive impact on his game. In 3 weeks you can change the aesthetics but have little impact on strength and power. In 6months+ you can change those enormously.

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

The thing with Dipo is that he's the biggest of all those guys, which has to be an advantage (and he plays the best defense of them).

+1 on the above.

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I stated my Sports Science qualification just to show I have more than a layman's knowledge of this subject matter - it does, therefore, have relevance.

A 3 week weight loss like that is more than just laying off the burgers, it also indicates a significant increase and/or change in exercise regime.

Weight loss on it's own without strength and/or endurance training will diminish any strength and power.

This is not a guy who's "lost a bit of timber" and is now playing at All Star level. He's completely transformed his body from strength, power and explosiveness perspectives over 6/7months to almost a year now and that will has had a massive impact on his game. In 3 weeks you can change the aesthetics but have little impact on strength and power. In 6months+ you can change those enormously.

Well perhaps you feel it's relevant, I personally don't see any need for it but each to their own.

To say on the bolded part, it's been proven by the vast majority of studies that changing body composition is generally limited at any one time to either increases in muscle mass or fat loss as gaining strength subsequently while in a caloric deficit proves to often be sub-optimal.

Its far more likely in the case of a well-trained athlete that either one avenue or the other is pursued so the likelihood of Oladipo having gained any noteworthy strength in the pic above(which is all I have been referring to is unlikely).

That pic has been shown by you and by others as some type of proof that Oladipo has made massive strides physically which has contributed to improved performance. If he persisted with additional training that is likely correct.
However, as I originally stated that pic actually proves very little other than to say that Oladipo dropped 10lbs not too long after the playoffs. The change from one pic to the next is actually very little in relative terms.

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

Well perhaps you feel it's relevant, I personally don't see any need for it but each to their own.

To say on the bolded part, it's been proven by the vast majority of studies that changing body composition is generally limited at any one time to either increases in muscle mass or fat loss as gaining strength subsequently while in a caloric deficit proves to often be sub-optimal.

Its far more likely in the case of a well-trained athlete that either one avenue or the other is pursued so the likelihood of Oladipo having gained any noteworthy strength in the pic above(which is all I have been referring to is unlikely).

That pic has been shown by you and by others as some type of proof that Oladipo has made massive strides physically which has contributed to improved performance. If he persisted with additional training that is likely correct.
However, as I originally stated that pic actually proves very little other than to say that Oladipo dropped 10lbs not too long after the playoffs. The change from one pic to the next is actually very little in relative terms.

Ah did you read what I said?

I said in an earlier post I agree with you that there's little chance of any strength/power gains in that 3 week period.

I then said that 6+months of training from that point on will lead to significant gains.

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Neither, according to the player himself.

He did a Woj pod just before Christmas and I read an interview with him on si (or it may have been The Ringer) around the same time. He's had 5 coaches in 4 years and basically said he was coasting until he got to OKC. He said he thought he worked hard until he got to see Westbrook train and play and knew then he had to change everything from diet to workouts to physique etc. He's vegan now too like a lot of the younger guys in the NBA.

Woj also did a pod with his college coach a while back and the college coach talked about how hard he worked last summer on every aspect of his game, but especially his body.
I don't know if you've seen this before either:



He looks completely out of shape in the first pic - and that was in May, just over 2 weeks after they were eliminated in the Play Offs.

I give the give enormous credit for how he's transformed his body and his mental game.

The OKC situation wasn't ideal for him. he's a high ball usage guard.....put him on the same team as Westbrook and what else do you expect in fairness? And let's be clear and fair to Westbrook - Oladipo just wasn't this good last year. I've spoken many times about systems and situations to match a player's skillset - he's in a great place and a great match for his skillset right now. If he was sharing the ball with Kyrie, Harden, Wall, etc. he probably wouldn't look as good. Not a criticism btw!

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Not in 3 weeks agreed but 6-7 months of that in pre-season and you'll change an awful lot about your body's efficiency, explosiveness and power output (my primary degree is in Sports Science). He's a different player - physically and mentally - than he was last year; and he's in the best situation for him. Of course he's going to look better. He could do all the physical and mental work and still be in OKC and look a bit better, but nothing like this.

If that was just weight loss he'd have no power or strength gains btw.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I stated my Sports Science qualification just to show I have more than a layman's knowledge of this subject matter - it does, therefore, have relevance.

A 3 week weight loss like that is more than just laying off the burgers, it also indicates a significant increase and/or change in exercise regime.

Weight loss on it's own without strength and/or endurance training will diminish any strength and power.

This is not a guy who's "lost a bit of timber" and is now playing at All Star level. He's completely transformed his body from strength, power and explosiveness perspectives over 6/7months to almost a year now and that will has had a massive impact on his game. In 3 weeks you can change the aesthetics but have little impact on strength and power. In 6months+ you can change those enormously.

Key points in bold.

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Ah did you read what I said?

I said in an earlier post I agree with you that there's little chance of any strength/power gains in that 3 week period.

I then said that 6+months of training from that point on will lead to significant gains.

Ah I did. I wasn't disputing any point you made but simply making one myself.

My primary point was and still is, is that the picture you shared to allude to the significant improvements in Oladipo prove very little in isolation.

It looks great but has very little substance. Perhaps he has continued his regime and it has helped with his improved performance which I also said.

However, I find the use of a pic like this to create a causal reason for his improved performance is a tad naive.
You've elaborated on your point which is fair enough but my original point has not changed which is that the pic you shared proves very little in a vacuum other than he dropped 10lbs in 3 weeks.

NufcNavan

ButtersSuki wrote: »

+1 on the above.

Hey I said that not Meaty :pac::pac:

ButtersSuki

NufcNavan wrote: »

Hey I said that not Meaty :pac::pac:

Not sure how that happened? Apologies!

Gregk961

Not NBA related but any college hoops fans here? Dont follow it as much as I used to but il definitely tune into a couple of March madness games.

Looking forward to watching Arizona tomorrow night/Friday morning, potential 1st pick Deandre ayton along with 2 other possible draft prospects. If anybody watched the AAU documentary on netflix the guard from that plays for Arizona too. And the coaching staff are under investigation.

ButtersSuki

Gregk961 wrote: »

Not NBA related but any college hoops fans here? Dont follow it as much as I used to but il definitely tune into a couple of March madness games.

Looking forward to watching Arizona tomorrow night/Friday morning, potential 1st pick Deandre ayton along with 2 other possible draft prospects. If anybody watched the AAU documentary on netflix the guard from that plays for Arizona too. And the coaching staff are under investigation.

What's the name of that doc. if I may ask?

Edit: Lol, just realised I've seen it and posted about it a few weeks back!

Itssoeasy

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Gregk961 wrote: »

Not NBA related but any college hoops fans here? Dont follow it as much as I used to but il definitely tune into a couple of March madness games.

Looking forward to watching Arizona state tomorrow night/Friday morning, potential 1st pick Deandre ayton along with 2 other possible draft prospects. If anybody watched the AAU documentary on netflix the guard from that plays for Arizona too. And the coaching staff are under investigation.

What's the name of that doc. if I may ask?

What colour is the doc so to speak ?

Meatyfubu

On the topic of college hoops I went down a bit of a YouTube rabbit hole earlier looking at vids of a few of the top prospects Ayton, Doncic, Young, Porter Jr etc and on into the HS stars at the minute.

Zion Williamson is a scandalous athlete. He looks like Julius Randle with range, more speed and 10 inches extra on his vert, he's a bit of a freak.

Obviously when he gets to the next level he'll need a bit more. Duke have the Top 3 recruits of 2018 next year so they'll be the team to watch.

One guy who seems to get alot of YouTube hits similar but not quite as much as Zion is that McClung kid.
He looks cool in highlights but he'll almost certainly be found out at the next level when his hops don't offset his lack of size.
The rankings don't favour him and he's not likely an NBA prospect but he's got into a decent program at Georgetown, they're both interesting to see next year given the hype. Zion looks sure 1 & done lottery pick.

ButtersSuki

Itssoeasy wrote: »

What colour is the doc so to speak ?

Not too many on here will get that ref., but to use another - "Well done! Well done!" :pac:

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

On the topic of college hoops I went down a bit of a YouTube rabbit hole earlier looking at vids of a few of the top prospects Ayton, Doncic, Young, Porter Jr etc and on into the HS stars at the minute.

Zion Williamson is a scandalous athlete. He looks like Julius Randle with range, more speed and 10 inches extra on his vert, he's a bit of a freak.

Obviously when he gets to the next level he'll need a bit more. Duke have the Top 3 recruits of 2018 next year so they'll be the team to watch.

One guy who seems to get alot of YouTube hits similar but not quite as much as Zion is that McClung kid.
He looks cool in highlights but he'll almost certainly be found out at the next level when his hops don't offset his lack of size.
The rankings don't favour him and he's not likely an NBA prospect but he's got into a decent program at Georgetown, they're both interesting to see next year given the hype. Zion looks sure 1 & done lottery pick.

Doncic for me is head and shoulders above the competition and I think any team that passes him will regret it for a very long time. To be doing what he's doing (and has been doing for a few years now) against grown men whilst the others are playing their peers is phenomenal.

Agree on McClung - looks great at this level - and he has insane athletic ability for a guy his size, but it will be interesting to see how he transitions up a level. I posted some of his vids a few months ago. There was a video on YouTube of his leg work outs a while back that I can't find right now but wow......he puts in some work in his workouts. His leg strength is off the charts for what is essentially a kid.

Gregk961

ButtersSuki wrote: »

What's the name of that doc. if I may ask?

Edit: Lol, just realised I've seen it and posted about it a few weeks back!

Its not bad, (At all Costs is the name, I had to look it up) I actually like how the filmmaker stayed clear of telling the audience how wrong these practices are but showed you enough that you could make that decision yourself. Its not particularly strong as either a deep insight into AAU or as a social commentary though.

Im glad to see that the young guy has been successful at NCAAB level though, he looked to be in major injury trouble when the movie was released.

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Doncic for me is head and shoulders above the competition and I think any team that passes him will regret it for a very long time. To be doing what he's doing (and has been doing for a few years now) against grown men whilst the others are playing their peers is phenomenal.

Agree on McClung - looks great at this level - and he has insane athletic ability for a guy his size, but it will be interesting to see how he transitions up a level. I posted some of his vids a few months ago. There was a video on YouTube of his leg work outs a while back that I can't find right now but wow......he puts in some work in his workouts. His leg strength is off the charts for what is essentially a kid.

Doncic looks great offensively and I think he'll be a top 5 pick but he looks like an average athlete even in the Euroleague. There are a number of very good defensive PGs that don't have great athleticism such as Rubio and Ball so perhaps he can make it up on that end through effort and IQ but I'm not fully convinced just yet.

The game is becoming more and more positionless with the emergence of more and more players who can play offensively and defensively from the 3pt line to the post and I'm not sure Doncic does that.

I think Bagley, Ayton, Bamba, Porter Jr all do that which is why imo Trae Young for example won't go top 5.
What he's doing in the Euroleague is unprecedented but I'm not sure his game fully translates to the NBA, I hope it does because I really like him but I think there are definitely 3-5 guys picked before him unless some of them play awful in the NCAA tournament.

Meatyfubu

Lonzo has gone 4/29 from beyond in his last 4 games. He's so streaky. He looked good initially after the injury and I think he is good overall but his shot lacks consistency unsurprisingly.
I think the Lakers over the last 30 games have something like the 9th best record in the league which is great imo.
I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to adjust his shot in the offseason. Outside of actual release, i think his entire shooting motion has too many moving parts to be consistent at this level.
He's such a smart player that I have no doubts he could change his stroke and be successful but it's a case of whether they're willing to ask him.

bot43

daughter had me awahe from about 2.15 to 3am this morning. Grand excuse to catch the brilliant double OT with Celtics and Wizards. Absolute nail biter. #gowiz

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

Doncic looks great offensively and I think he'll be a top 5 pick but he looks like an average athlete even in the Euroleague. There are a number of very good defensive PGs that don't have great athleticism such as Rubio and Ball so perhaps he can make it up on that end through effort and IQ but I'm not fully convinced just yet.

The game is becoming more and more positionless with the emergence of more and more players who can play offensively and defensively from the 3pt line to the post and I'm not sure Doncic does that.

I think Bagley, Ayton, Bamba, Porter Jr all do that which is why imo Trae Young for example won't go top 5.
What he's doing in the Euroleague is unprecedented but I'm not sure his game fully translates to the NBA, I hope it does because I really like him but I think there are definitely 3-5 guys picked before him unless some of them play awful in the NCAA tournament.

I'd put the house on it that there's ZERO chance Doncic goes 4th or lower.

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I'd put the house on it that there's ZERO chance Doncic goes 4th or lower.

I'd disagree there to be honest. I think there are 2 definitely going ahead of him. Maybe he sneaks 3rd but I still think there are a couple more ahead of him. 4th-7th imo

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

I'd disagree there to be honest. I think there are 2 definitely going ahead of him. Maybe he sneaks 3rd but I still think there are a couple more ahead of him. 4th-7th imo

Well we'll know in a few weeks. The only way I can even see him going No. 2 is a team loaded with guards gets the 1 pick.

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Well we'll know in a few weeks. The only way I can even see him going No. 2 is a team loaded with guards gets the 1 pick.

Ayton is a lock for the No1 pick. Unless he gets hurt, nobody is passing on him. He's getting compared to Shaq with range.
Perhaps some scouts like Doncic so much that they take him over Bagley which I don't personally see.
If Porter Jr comes through unscathed he's almost certainly Top 3 also.

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

Ayton is a lock for the No1 pick. Unless he gets hurt, nobody is passing on him. He's getting compared to Shaq with range.
Perhaps some scouts like Doncic so much that they take him over Bagley which I don't personally see.
If Porter Jr comes through unscathed he's almost certainly Top 3 also.

You're clearly taking your info. from other avenues than I am then!

Most people I listen to podcast wise have Doncic 1 - it's not even close. The biggest Doncic-sceptic I've heard is Chris Vernon on The Ringer NBA show who doesn't rate him as he's European basically (classic American take, and doubts the athleticism) but his co-host Kevin O'Connor seems him (Doncic) as "in a league of his own" and everyone else below him.

Granted I've seen way more of Doncic than any other player in the draft class, but I think anyone who passes on him will regret it.

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

You're clearly taking your info. from other avenues than I am then!

Most people I listen to podcast wise have Doncic 1 - it's not even close. The biggest Doncic-sceptic I've heard is Chris Vernon on The Ringer NBA show who doesn't rate him as he's European basically (classic American take, and doubts the athleticism) but his co-host Kevin O'Connor seems him (Doncic) as "in a league of his own" and everyone else below him.

Granted I've seen way more of Doncic than any other player in the draft class, but I think anyone who passes on him will regret it.

I've seen a few, I know ESPN have Doncic 1st but DraftNet have him 6th for example. He's pretty polarizing.
My experience of polarizing players in the past has them dropping closer to the time as previously discussed teams are pretty risk averse at the top.
I haven't seen one mock draft in recent weeks that has Ayton outside No1 or No2. I think he's a lock tbh. March Madness will really solidify his position imo.

Osmosis Jones

From what I've seen Ayton or Doncic will be number 1, probably depending on the needs of the team drafting.

ButtersSuki

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

From what I've seen Ayton or Doncic will be number 1, probably depending on the needs of the team drafting.

This is still a huge factor; though some teams are starting to draft talent regardless of position, current roster makeup and needs etc. The process was largely around taking the best available talent regardless of position.

Personally with the trade options, shorter contracts etc. and the rapid changes in playing style over the last few years I'd take talent first. Take the best player available regardless of position, make your chess moves afterwards. The way the league is going we'll see 2 point guards and 3 shooting guards/small forward line ups soon enough - kinda joking but not really at the same time!

Itssoeasy

Al horford looks like he's back tonight for the celtics. Kyrie is still out. Jaylen Brown is still in the concussion protocol(although given how bad it could have been) and next week update. Coach Brad stevens will give an update on Marcus Smart at 9pm irish time on his injury and status.

Gregk961

ButtersSuki wrote: »

The way the league is going we'll see 2 point guards and 3 shooting guards/small forward line ups soon enough - kinda joking but not really at the same time!

The Warriors death/hamptons lineup is pretty damn close in fairness!

ButtersSuki

Gregk961 wrote: »

The Warriors death/hamptons lineup is pretty damn close in fairness!

Yeah I know...think that may become very trendy for teams to try and emulate in the coming years.....without the right personnel. :rolleyes: