NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2017-18

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Again, as I said specifically on Portland, you're making money / you're competitive / there's always the chance you could run hot and win a series you're not supposed to and suddenly you're in the finals. Blowing it up in the hope of a better contender the other side of a half decade rebuild is far too easy a thing to suggest when you're not an owner or fan of the franchise concerned.

Owner maybe - do you really think Portland fans (given their history) are happy with how their team has been over the last few years? Many of the Podcast hosts I listen to are from Portland, they can barely hide their dismay at what's happening. They've (and many fans and other neutral commentators) have been crying for years to break up the Lillard and McCollum partnership, and you can add Nurkic to that now.

I'm not saying their expectations are logical, but I think you're mistaken if you think Portland fans are content with where they are.

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

3rd yes, but from memory 3 games up from not getting into the play offs at all. When you consider the significant injuries or abscences (Leonard, Cousins, Butle etc) many teams below them had I’m not so sure it’s as good a season as some think....and that’s before we talk about the embarrassing play off loss to a team touted as not making the play offs at all at the start of the season but esp after Boogie went down.

Just giving some context!

Btw, I’ve neverto my mind heard about the two way play of McCollum as being up there amongst the leagues best. You do mean Mccollum, right?

.....

I said after LOSING to a team with players fitting that description Davis, Rondo & Holiday.

Nurkic is on a great deal he's very valuable at his price.

I think Portland have done extremely well, the injuries thing is meh point as every team deals with them. They haven't overachieved like the Pacers but they certainly exceeded expectations even it appears a tad inflated. I think standing pat until the gambling bill passes to see how that may affect the cap is the go to move unless it's a superstar max

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Owner maybe - do you really think Portland fans (given their history) are happy with how their team has been over the last few years? Many of the Podcast hosts I listen to are from Portland, they can barely hide their dismay at what's happening. They've (and many fans and other neutral commentators) have been crying for years to break up the Lillard and McCollum partnership, and you can add Nurkic to that now.

I'm not saying their expectations are logical, but I think you're mistaken if you think Portland fans are content with where they are.

Well do they have the stomach for The Process? For three - four years of bad losses, an empty arena and nothing but speculation on draft picks? Because you can’t fix the roster via a trade or two and we’re learning that you can’t do a rebuild to championship calibre by half unless you get absurdly lucky.

As a Knicks fan I’d happily take their situation and cross the fingers come playoff time. Losing hurts and in the current NBA star landscape only a handful of teams are one or two moves away and Portland / Toronto aren’t those teams imo.

NufcNavan

I have to say I'm glad that the Sixers are struggling. They were getting very big headed without winning sh*t.

Meatyfubu

NufcNavan wrote: »

I have to say I'm glad that the Sixers are struggling. They were getting very big headed without winning sh*t.

What made them big headed?? They won a 1st round playoff series on the back of two playoff rookies.
They seem humble to me....

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well do they have the stomach for The Process? For three - four years of bad losses, an empty arena and nothing but speculation on draft picks? Because you can’t fix the roster via a trade or two and we’re learning that you can’t do a rebuild to championship calibre by half unless you get absurdly lucky.

As a Knicks fan I’d happily take their situation and cross the fingers come playoff time. Losing hurts and in the current NBA star landscape only a handful of teams are one or two moves away and Portland / Toronto aren’t those teams imo.

I dunno if Toronto got a superstar like Leonard they shouldnt be afraid of any team
I think Portland need to move on from that back court
I know cap issues but Whiteside & Winslow for McCollum imo isnt a drop infact its probably stronger
Get a player like Avery Bradley in if they could trade/stretch Turner
Portlands problem is theyve given some terrible contracts, I dont think Toronto have the same problem

Gregk961

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Owner maybe - do you really think Portland fans (given their history) are happy with how their team has been over the last few years? Many of the Podcast hosts I listen to are from Portland, they can barely hide their dismay at what's happening. They've (and many fans and other neutral commentators) have been crying for years to break up the Lillard and McCollum partnership, and you can add Nurkic to that now.

I'm not saying their expectations are logical, but I think you're mistaken if you think Portland fans are content with where they are.

What fans think and what's best for a franchise are 2 different things to be fair. Most NBA "fans" are exceptionally fickle and really have no idea what it takes to become a championship contender(mostly luck if you ask me). If the Portland front office decide to blow it up(which seems like a very unlikely outcome to be fair) most of these guys will be following the Oregon ducks for the next 5 years- nobody wants to watch losing basketball.

Winning basketball is underrated. Especially by NBA fan bases.

ButtersSuki

So....listened to the usual pods all evening - Open Floor, Lowe Post (Game 1 Toronto only), Ringer NBA (multiple shows), Bill Simmons (x 2) and Dunc'd On amongst others (mornings this week). Listened to Woj too but Toronto not in the conversation.

In a nutshell - most (not all) said Toronto have either reached their potential, have a psychological barrier with LBJ and Play Off b'ball in general, or are at the point where a coaching change is needed, or to blow it up.

Re. blowing it up - problems identified as:

• They'll get nothing approaching Lowry's value (to them) back in a trade given his contract, age, declining athletic ability, age etc. so the thought was to keep him.
• DeRozan, one interesting from Kevin O'Connor (very good analyst IMO) was that with DeRozan you see the difference between a star and a superstar (he's the star in that conversation btw). I think that really sums him up nicely. That said, he's way better than Lowry right now. Potential trades listed but again value was the issue. Good stats on a bad team guy was mentioned - yes they're not awfully bad but if they're in the West do they make the Play Offs? I honestly don't think they do - people will say i'm trolling there but I don't think they do. And even if they do they're a 1st round exit as they're likely 7 or 8.
• Bench - good individually, but not as strong collectively as you'd think, and have underperformed in the Play Offs. Doubts as to what they'd get back across the board for them
• Comments on Casey admitting they had the yips - very strange thing to do, undermining his own players effectively and you could argue shifting the blame. You'd never see Pop/Stevens etc. doing that.......regardless, a coach should never say something like that.
• Comments on Casey re. how long it took him to change to shooting 3s in the offence

There was a lot more, but I'm just too tired to write more. Worth a listen if you have the time.

Carcharodon

Warriors v pelicans game could be a cracker or warriors get blown out by the looks of it right now, pelicans up 13 still in the 1st and things are chippy enough
warriors not shooting well but that can change in a heartbeat

irishman86

ButtersSuki wrote: »

So....listened to the usual pods all evening - Open Floor, Lowe Post (Game 1 Toronto only), Ringer NBA (multiple shows), Bill Simmons (x 2) and Dunc'd On amongst others (mornings this week). Listened to Woj too but Toronto not in the conversation.

In a nutshell - most (not all) said Toronto have either reached their potential, have a psychological barrier with LBJ and Play Off b'ball in general, or are at the point where a coaching change is needed, or to blow it up.

Re. blowing it up - problems identified as:

• They'll get nothing approaching Lowry's value (to them) back in a trade given his contract, age, declining athletic ability, age etc. so the thought was to keep him.
• DeRozan, one interesting from Kevin O'Connor (very good analyst IMO) was that with DeRozan you see the difference between a star and a superstar (he's the star in that conversation btw). I think that really sums him up nicely. That said, he's way better than Lowry right now. Potential trades listed but again value was the issue. Good stats on a bad team guy was mentioned - yes they're not awfully bad but if they're in the West do they make the Play Offs? I honestly don't think they do - people will say i'm trolling there but I don't think they do. And even if they do they're a 1st round exit as they're likely 7 or 8.
• Bench - good individually, but not as strong collectively as you'd think, and have underperformed in the Play Offs. Doubts as to what they'd get back across the board for them
• Comments on Casey admitting they had the yips - very strange thing to do, undermining his own players effectively and you could argue shifting the blame. You'd never see Pop/Stevens etc. doing that.......regardless, a coach should never say something like that.
• Comments on Casey re. how long it took him to change to shooting 3s in the offence

There was a lot more, but I'm just too tired to write more. Worth a listen if you have the time.

DeRozan is very close to a superstar, ive said for years that they should get rid of Casey
When the going gets tough its everyone elses fault
The fact that JV isnt considered a star for me lies at Caseys feet

Meatyfubu

irishman86 wrote: »

DeRozan is very close to a superstar, ive said for years that they should get rid of Casey
When the going gets tough its everyone elses fault
The fact that JV isnt considered a star for me lies at Caseys feet

He's a top 15 player imo. He's not realistically a legit MVP candidate and a guy needs to be a perennial MVP candidate to be a superstar imo.

irishman86

Meatyfubu wrote: »

He's a top 15 player imo. He's not realistically a legit MVP candidate and a guy needs to be a perennial MVP candidate to be a superstar imo.

I would consider top 15 superstar, but i understand your thinking

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

He's a top 15 player imo. He's not realistically a legit MVP candidate and a guy needs to be a perennial MVP candidate to be a superstar imo.

Deep breath.....I promise this is not intended in any way to sound personal or confrontational - but I honestly have to wonder how much basketball you watch to come to that conclusion? He’s not even close to Top 20. The league is so deep and talented right now I honestly cannot fathom how you would think that. Again, this is not intended in any way to sound personal but are you a casual fan who watches highlights or do you deeply study the game?

Start of the season he was ranked 36 in si.com’s Top 100 and to be fair to the guy that’s a little harsh. That said, he’s historically a Play Off underperformed and is doing that again in the Cleveland series. I don’t think you’d disagree he’s not playing like a top 15 guy right now?

I’m on my phone now but I’ll list 20 better players (maybe even more) when I get to my laptop later today or tomorrow. If you want to list a top 20 too for comparative purposes that would be interesting?

qwabercd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Deep breath.....I promise this is not intended in any way to sound personal or confrontational - but I honestly have to wonder how much basketball you watch to come to that conclusion? He’s not even close to Top 20. The league is so deep and talented right now I honestly cannot fathom how you would think that. Again, this is not intended in any way to sound personal but are you a casual fan who watches highlights or do you deeply study the game?

Start of the season he was ranked 36 in si.com’s Top 100 and to be fair to the guy that’s a little harsh. That said, he’s historically a Play Off underperformed and is doing that again in the Cleveland series. I don’t think you’d disagree he’s not playing like a top 15 guy right now?

I’m on my phone now but I’ll list 20 better players (maybe even more) when I get to my laptop later today or tomorrow. If you want to list a top 20 too for comparative purposes that would be interesting?

I'd agree he's not top 15 but to say he's not even close to top 20 is wrong also. Pretty sure when the open floor guys re-ranked their top 20 about half way through the season they had him on the cusp of the top20. And it's a fairly subjective too.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Deep breath.....I promise this is not intended in any way to sound personal or confrontational - but I honestly have to wonder how much basketball you watch to come to that conclusion? He’s not even close to Top 20. The league is so deep and talented right now I honestly cannot fathom how you would think that. Again, this is not intended in any way to sound personal but are you a casual fan who watches highlights or do you deeply study the game?

Start of the season he was ranked 36 in si.com’s Top 100 and to be fair to the guy that’s a little harsh. That said, he’s historically a Play Off underperformed and is doing that again in the Cleveland series. I don’t think you’d disagree he’s not playing like a top 15 guy right now?

I’m on my phone now but I’ll list 20 better players (maybe even more) when I get to my laptop later today or tomorrow. If you want to list a top 20 too for comparative purposes that would be interesting?

For this season DeRozan was:

9th in Field Goals (LeBron)
16th in Assists (Westbrook)
8th in points (LeBron)
11th in ppg (Harden)
17th in usage (Harden)
14th in Offensive Win Shares (Harden)
16th in Win Shares (Harden)


He's not super efficient and he doesn't play much D but he's a very good offensive player who can carry a decent scoring load.

Is he top 20? Last season I'd have said maybe. I don't personally think he is right now.

And returning to the main strand of conversation, I think this is the major issue Toronto would have if they tried to significantly change things. He has three years on a max deal and they couldn't possibly trade him for superior short to medium term value. They could potentially trade him for a bunch of picks and assets as part of a blow up, but - like Portland - they are locked into their backcourt and have to ride it for better or worse the next few years. DeRozan is not the player that will likely lead them to the championship, but he'll keep leading them to a decent playoff seeding. It's a tough situation in the modern NBA.

LuckyLloyd

LeBron
Durant
Harden
Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Giannis
Draymond
Kawhi
Davis
Wall
Gobert
George
Lillard
Irving
Cousins
Butler
Embiid
Simmons
KAT

Are uncontroversially better assets I would have thought (the above isn't a ranking per say) than DeRozan. And you could certainly argue a few more...

NufcNavan

And Dipo > DeRozan

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Deep breath.....I promise this is not intended in any way to sound personal or confrontational - but I honestly have to wonder how much basketball you watch to come to that conclusion? He’s not even close to Top 20. The league is so deep and talented right now I honestly cannot fathom how you would think that. Again, this is not intended in any way to sound personal but are you a casual fan who watches highlights or do you deeply study the game?

Start of the season he was ranked 36 in si.com’s Top 100 and to be fair to the guy that’s a little harsh. That said, he’s historically a Play Off underperformed and is doing that again in the Cleveland series. I don’t think you’d disagree he’s not playing like a top 15 guy right now?

I’m on my phone now but I’ll list 20 better players (maybe even more) when I get to my laptop later today or tomorrow. If you want to list a top 20 too for comparative purposes that would be interesting?

The fact you have to say "it's not personal" means it's likely to offend. The post is quite antagonistic but I obviously don't particularly mind whether you question how much bball I watch, I can only claim to be an average fan after all. Asking people how much they "study" the game just makes you appear conceited imo.

On the actual point I have mentioned numerous times that DeRozan is a player I'm not particularly high on at all. The Top 15 thing was said rather flippantly so if he's slightly lower than that it's fine. I have no argument.
He's a starter in the all star team and the best player on the best regular season team in a conference so outside of the statistics, Top 15 isn't a reach imo.

LL highlighted some statistics to reinforce his case but if he's top 15 or top 25 it's pretty irrelevant because my original point was he's NOT a superstar.

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

The fact you have to say "it's not personal" means it's likely to offend. The post is quite antagonistic but I obviously don't particularly mind whether you question how much bball I watch, I can only claim to be an average fan after all. Asking people how much they "study" the game just makes you appear conceited imo.

On the actual point I have mentioned numerous times that DeRozan is a player I'm not particularly high on at all. The Top 15 thing was said rather flippantly so if he's slightly lower than that it's fine. I have no argument.
He's a starter in the all star team and the best player on the best regular season team in a conference so outside of the statistics, Top 15 isn't a reach imo.

LL highlighted some statistics to reinforce his case but if he's top 15 or top 25 it's pretty irrelevant because my original point was he's NOT a superstar.

No, it was intended as openly stating it wasn't meant to be. I can't decide how you want to accept it, but I give you my word it wasn't. The post wasn't intended as antagonistic but again, if you choose to take it that way I can't control that. I don't wish to sound conceited either btw FWIW. I could explain my background but you'll possibly say I'm even more conceited so I won't - but there are a few posters on here who know who I am (or at least there were - most have left now).

The reason I stated this was you seem to go out of your way to argue every post I make, so I wanted to be clear on the fact that it wasn't as such. If you want to take my question re. how much basketball do you watch as being conceited; again, I can't control your interpretation. I assure you it was purely to try and understand what your basis for your claim that he was Top 15 in your opinion was coming from. As (I believe) was obvious from my post, I can understand how an average fan (and that's not an insult, some people just watch the game more than others) watching highlights might think he's Top 15; versus say a person who'll watch far more and be familiar with the games on both ends of the court of far more players in the league and for longer periods of time.

Having said that - you're flip flopping in even the above paragraph. You're backtracking on your original assertion that he was Top 15. Then when presented with multiple opinions that he wasn't, you seem to change your mind only to state at the end it's not a reach to say he's Top 15 again.

On you point that he's not a superstar, ahhhh......I've said that all along.

Finally, if you are or were genuinely offended by my post or my posting style, I genuinely apologise. I'm not here to insult of offend; and if you feel I have I apologise. I don't take your posts personally (and you can be pretty confrontational, antagonistic and sarcastic yourself btw - IMO), but I do reserve the right to post my thoughts on the game and claims you're making. Likewise, you are absolutely free to disagree with anything I post of course.

ButtersSuki

Watched the full NO v GS game just now. Pelicans looked really good, possibly even more impressive than at any time in the Portland series. Rondo with 21 assists and should have had more (a couple of gimmes missed by players, and a few hockey assists that could have been assists in themselves had the player chosen not to pass out from under the basket); AD was AD, Holiday did it at both ends, Mirotic was very solid and McCaw had a great game off the bench against his former team. They play at great pace and were still pushing hard when 20up and 8mins to play.

You'd likely think GS won't play as badly again though, but I'd really like to see NO take Game 4 to make this very interesting. Steph looked tired but that's understandable given he's just back. Short turnaround for this one with G4 tomorrow.

Haven't watched the Boston - Philly Game 2 yet so could be a long night. :rolleyes:

Meatyfubu

ButtersSuki wrote: »

No, it was intended as openly stating it wasn't meant to be. I can't decide how you want to accept it, but I give you my word it wasn't. The post wasn't intended as antagonistic but again, if you choose to take it that way I can't control that. I don't wish to sound conceited either btw FWIW. I could explain my background but you'll possibly say I'm even more conceited so I won't - but there are a few posters on here who know who I am (or at least there were - most have left now).

The reason I stated this was you seem to go out of your way to argue every post I make, so I wanted to be clear on the fact that it wasn't as such. If you want to take my question re. how much basketball do you watch as being conceited; again, I can't control your interpretation. I assure you it was purely to try and understand what your basis for your claim that he was Top 15 in your opinion was coming from. As (I believe) was obvious from my post, I can understand how an average fan (and that's not an insult, some people just watch the game more than others) watching highlights might think he's Top 15; versus say a person who'll watch far more and be familiar with the games on both ends of the court of far more players in the league and for longer periods of time.

Having said that - you're flip flopping in even the above paragraph. You're backtracking on your original assertion that he was Top 15. Then when presented with multiple opinions that he wasn't, you seem to change your mind only to state at the end it's not a reach to say he's Top 15 again.

On you point that he's not a superstar, ahhhh......I've said that all along.

Finally, if you are or were genuinely offended by my post or my posting style, I genuinely apologise. I'm not here to insult of offend; and if you feel I have I apologise. I don't take your posts personally (and you can be pretty confrontational, antagonistic and sarcastic yourself btw - IMO), but I do reserve the right to post my thoughts on the game and claims you're making. Likewise, you are absolutely free to disagree with anything I post of course.

Again as I said I don't particularly care. I think it's quite clear that your post was designed to antagonise to some degree which is quite clearly evident to others in the thread. I'll leave that there as I genuinely couldn't care less.

As far as DeRozan goes, you're clutching at straws with a silly debate. I don't understand how I'm flip-flopping but I'll clarify anyway.
I concede I didn't give it much thought when I said Top 15 but LL made some good arguments for him plus I added some points with all star appearance etc.
That said retrospectively I agree he's not a top 15, that's all it is.

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

Again as I said I don't particularly care. I think it's quite clear that your post was designed to antagonise to some degree which is quite clearly evident to others in the thread. I'll leave that there as I genuinely couldn't care less.

As far as DeRozan goes, you're clutching at straws with a silly debate. I don't understand how I'm flip-flopping but I'll clarify anyway.
I concede I didn't give it much thought when I said Top 15 but LL made some good arguments for him plus I added some points with all star appearance etc.
That said retrospectively I agree he's not a top 15, that's all it is.

Way to be gracious and accept a genuinely offered apology, as well as my word. Says a lot about you tbh.

ButtersSuki

Meatyfubu wrote: »

Again as I said I don't particularly care. I think it's quite clear that your post was designed to antagonise to some degree which is quite clearly evident to others in the thread. I'll leave that there as I genuinely couldn't care less.

As far as DeRozan goes, you're clutching at straws with a silly debate. I don't understand how I'm flip-flopping but I'll clarify anyway.
I concede I didn't give it much thought when I said Top 15 but LL made some good arguments for him plus I added some points with all star appearance etc.
That said retrospectively I agree he's not a top 15, that's all it is.

Who are these others in the thread you speak for btw? Do you speak for them or are you just not giving it much thought again before shooting your mouth off again? You’ve been far more antagonistic to me than I have to you incl. effectively accusing me of lying. Now you’re not gracious enough to accept a genuinely offered apology when I made an effort to call a truce to this back and forth, not take my word on the clarifications I offered in the post that so offended you, or since. And yet I’m sure in your head I’m the one with the problem. Smh.

Meatyfubu

9pt spread for the Sixers tonight. I'm surprised it's that big. It's nice when the games are on relatively early.
I hope Simmons bounces back tonight.

GSW tomorrow at 8.30 is good too. Easily the worst part of supporting a West coast team is the time difference.

Also Becky Hammon is in the running for the Bucks job, it would be such a progressive step forward to see a woman get a head coaching role in the league. I believe she's the only full time female assistant coach in league history.

Pyjamarama

I do not understand the refs in this Philly Boston series...

For Forks Sake

Meatyfubu wrote: »

9pt spread for the Sixers tonight. I'm surprised it's that big. It's nice when the games are on relatively early.
I hope Simmons bounces back tonight.

Lively game so far.
That assist from Simmons to Embiid :cool:: https://twitter.com/NBA/status/992888410330292224

Meatyfubu

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Lively game so far.
That assist from Simmons to Embiid: https://twitter.com/NBA/status/992888410330292224

It was a great one. Chauncey Pierce and Jalen talking about all the posters Baynes has been put on.

Tatum playing great outside of the foul trouble too

For Forks Sake

Meatyfubu wrote: »

It was a great one. Chauncey Pierce and Jalen talking about all the posters Baynes has been put on.

That's another one for his collection, Embiid absolutely destroyed him

GoldFour4

Very enjoyable game anyway, both teams going on runs.

irishman86

Is there any wonder other posters stopped posting in here, its without a doubt the bitchiest thread around :pac: Your a casual fan blah blah blah, what age .............