NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2017-18

Pyjamarama

Sixers certainly getting more than their fair share of calls tonight. That being said part of it is that they're finally using their size advantage to pound the paint. Taking away some of the advantages Boston has on D with their elite perimeter defenders. A lot easier to get foul calls when you're dominating inside.

ButtersSuki

Gregk961 wrote: »

Yeah both of those guys are awful, I think i might have mentioned Nick Wright here a few months back (im truly sorry!!). All these guys get serious air time on all the big networks, it's crazy.

"Let's get one guy who loves LeBron/Tom Brady/Tiger Woods/whoever and one guy who hates LeBron/etc and let them at it for a few hours. Oh ya add in a hot ethnic pair of jugs who's opinion holds no weight to sit between them..NEW SHOW CREATED"

“a hot ethic pair of jugs”, though very politically incorrect, did make me smirk.

ButtersSuki

Well Toronto shut the haters up......

How do you view your season if you're them? Do you honestly think it’s a success based on wins and 1 seed? Or are you more honest with yourself and say it’s in the much weaker conference, your main competition (who just swept you) weren’t trying as hard as you were in the regular season, your other main competition were struck down with injuries, your best player wasn’t even in the court for significant portions of your last few games, your team looks mentally weak, etc.?

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Well Toronto shut the haters up......

How do you view your season if you're them? Do you honestly think it’s a success based on wins and 1 seed? Or are you more honest with yourself and say it’s in the much weaker conference, your main competition (who just swept you) weren’t trying as hard as you were in the regular season, your other main competition were struck down with injuries, your best player wasn’t even in the court for significant portions of your last few games, your team looks mentally weak, etc.?

They have a bunch of good players, and lack real stars. The depth of good players carries them through the regular season, and the lack of stars kills them in a playoff series versus LeBron. They also just match up terribly with this version of the Cavs specifically. Love causes them huge problems and they can't seem to deal with LeBron plus shooters very well at all.

Their season was a par for expectations overall. Better than expected seeding; solid first round win; disappointing outcome against the Cavs.

I say keep it together, cross the fingers that LeBron moves West and come back and try to do it better next year. What they should be changing if they feel a change is necessary is the coach imo.

K.O.Kiki

LeBronto vs The Trash Bros

NufcNavan

DeMar DeRozan makes $83 Million the next 3 seasons

Kyle Lowry makes $64 Million the next 2 seasons

Serge Ibaka makes $45 Million the next 2 seasons

Normal Powell makes $42 Million the next 4 seasons

Those salaries are revolting

Meatyfubu

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They have a bunch of good players, and lack real stars. The depth of good players carries them through the regular season, and the lack of stars kills them in a playoff series versus LeBron. They also just match up terribly with this version of the Cavs specifically. Love causes them huge problems and they can't seem to deal with LeBron plus shooters very well at all.

Their season was a par for expectations overall. Better than expected seeding; solid first round win; disappointing outcome against the Cavs.

I say keep it together, cross the fingers that LeBron moves West and come back and try to do it better next year. What they should be changing if they feel a change is necessary is the coach imo.

I think that pretty much sums it. I'm pretty bullish on their roster in the current NBA landscape both as pieces that can be part of an Eastern Conference title and as pieces that are valuable trade assets. I agree they need a new coach, Uriji is an excellent GM and I think he'll make that move either this summer or next.
They have so many young players on excellent contracts, OG especially is going to be very good imo.

I don't remotely buy the mentally weak stuff because outside of not believing it, how can you quantify that or place blame on that in a 4-0 series.

Meatyfubu

NufcNavan wrote: »

DeMar DeRozan makes $83 Million the next 3 seasons

Kyle Lowry makes $64 Million the next 2 seasons

Serge Ibaka makes $45 Million the next 2 seasons

Normal Powell makes $42 Million the next 4 seasons

Those salaries are revolting

Relative to who??

NufcNavan

This isn’t on Casey. He can’t coach heart into his players.

I actually respect the guts he had to tell DeRozan to sit and watch the rest of game 3 from the bench. Nearly won the game for the Raptors.

The GM is the one that keeps the same core together year after year. All Casey can do is take away minutes. He benched his highest paid player when it was clear he had given up and he got roasted nationally for it. What else is he supposed to do?

You could have Jim Valvano as HC of that core and they STILL wouldn’t have a heartbeat.

If this were against literally any other playoff team, I'd say the Cavs turned a major corner as a team... but no, the raptors just quit.

Meatyfubu

NufcNavan wrote: »

This isn’t on Casey. He can’t coach heart into his players.

I actually respect the guts he had to tell DeRozan to sit and watch the rest of game 3 from the bench. Nearly won the game for the Raptors.

The GM is the one that keeps the same core together year after year. All Casey can do is take away minutes. He benched his highest paid player when it was clear he had given up and he got roasted nationally for it. What else is he supposed to do?

You could have Jim Valvano as HC of that core and they STILL wouldn’t have a heartbeat.

If this were against literally any other playoff team, I'd say the Cavs turned a major corner as a team... but no, the raptors just quit.

I tried to link that Cuban and Skip Bayless video where Skip Bayless asserts that the Heat simply wanted it more than OKC.

You should probably check it, Cuban would tend to disagree on your premise that athletes quit in situations like this.

LuckyLloyd

NufcNavan wrote: »

DeMar DeRozan makes $83 Million the next 3 seasons

Kyle Lowry makes $64 Million the next 2 seasons

Serge Ibaka makes $45 Million the next 2 seasons

Normal Powell makes $42 Million the next 4 seasons

Those salaries are revolting

You can't have it both ways. You can't say the contracts are bad in one breath, then advocate the GM to try and trade them away and improve with the other. If the contracts are bad, then they are locked into the window this group provides. As you can't move them for equivalent or superior value in the context of your roster.

NufcNavan wrote: »

This isn’t on Casey. He can’t coach heart into his players.

I actually respect the guts he had to tell DeRozan to sit and watch the rest of game 3 from the bench. Nearly won the game for the Raptors.

The GM is the one that keeps the same core together year after year. All Casey can do is take away minutes. He benched his highest paid player when it was clear he had given up and he got roasted nationally for it. What else is he supposed to do?

You could have Jim Valvano as HC of that core and they STILL wouldn’t have a heartbeat.

If this were against literally any other playoff team, I'd say the Cavs turned a major corner as a team... but no, the raptors just quit.

The Raptors never trailed during regular time in game one; they were leading at HT in game two; they made a fourth quarter comeback to force a buzzer beater in game three. They played it tough and close across three games. I'm not sure this is an issue of "heart". It's too simplistic. For sure they'd have some plays back, but it wasn't an abject capitulation. The Cavs provide a very bad match up test for them; have the greatest player to ever walk the earth putting up ridiculous numbers across the series against them; and have a psychological advantage from the previous couple of years.

I get people being disappointed and annoyed but after a 59 win season, a roster with age largely on its side for the next three years and the potential for a huge shift in power in the conference this summer: you really have to just go once more into the breach next year. Even if LeBron resigns, their age profile moves things in their direction.

I say change the coach because a fresh approach and voice in the locker room could be the spur required. To put it another way, if people really think a trade or two does this what types of trades moves that are realistic for the likes of Lowry or Ibaka do they see?

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You can't have it both ways. You can't say the contracts are bad in one breath, then advocate the GM to try and trade them away and improve with the other. If the contracts are bad, then they are locked into the window this group provides. As you can't move them for equivalent or superior value in the context of your roster.



The Raptors never trailed during regular time in game one; they were leading at HT in game two; they made a fourth quarter comeback to force a buzzer beater in game three. They played it tough and close across three games. I'm not sure this is an issue of "heart". It's too simplistic. For sure they'd have some plays back, but it wasn't an abject capitulation. The Cavs provide a very bad match up test for them; have the 2nd greatest player to ever walk the earth putting up ridiculous numbers across the series against them; and have a psychological advantage from the previous couple of years.

I get people being disappointed and annoyed but after a 59 win season, a roster with age largely on its side for the next three years and the potential for a huge shift in power in the conference this summer: you really have to just go once more into the breach next year. Even if LeBron resigns, their age profile moves things in their direction.

I say change the coach because a fresh approach and voice in the locker room could be the spur required. To put it another way, if people really think a trade or two does this what types of trades moves that are realistic for the likes of Lowry or Ibaka do they see?

The one thing that really bothers me about this argument is it's based on the East being a 2 horse race between Toronto and Cleveland and everything else standing still.

• Boston will be better next year just by having their injured players (two of whom are All Stars btw) back.

• Philly will be better because they're a year older with Play Off experience now etc. PLUS they will likely make a big move this summer.

• Milwaukee/Giannis should be better too.

Even if LeBron goes West, and Toronto stand still, I don't see Toronto coming out of the East next year. I don't see them being the 1 seed either.

From the evidence we've seen I don't think it's a stretch to say this Boston team right now (without Irving or Hayward) would beat Toronto in the Play Offs this year.


FYP in red btw.

NufcNavan

The Raptors lost by nearly 40 in an elimination game as the 1 seed. Of course heart and effort comes into it.

LuckyLloyd

LeBron now gets some much needed rest, which could be very significant in the Finals. If Philly could extend their series it's obviously even better.

I know it can be a controversial topic but - leaving aside any MJ comparisons - what LeBron is doing in the playoffs at 33 is truly incredible and we risk taking it for granted:

1st in minutes played (455)
1st in points per game (34.3)
1st in Defensive Rebounds (87)
1st in PER (35.6)
1st in Win Shares (3.2)
1st in Offensive Box Plus Minus (11.4)
1st in Defensive Box Plus Minus (4.8)
1st in Adjusted Box Plus Minus (16.2)
1st in Value Over Replacement Player (2.1)

I think nerds will look at series box scores like the Indiana one in a couple of decades and think 'wtf':

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2018-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-pacers-vs-cavaliers.html

I suppose all I'm trying to say here is that - as we move into the portion of the season where it becomes saturated with legacy and 'GOAT' talk - we should all try to just enjoy potentially the last season where he can play 40 mins plus a game and put up numbers like this.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

The one thing that really bothers me about this argument is it's based on the East being a 2 horse race between Toronto and Cleveland and everything else standing still.

• Boston will be better next year just by having their injured players (two of whom are All Stars btw) back.

• Philly will be better because they're a year older with Play Off experience now etc. PLUS they will likely make a big move this summer.

• Milwaukee/Giannis should be better too.

Even if LeBron goes West, and Toronto stand still, I don't see Toronto coming out of the East next year. I don't see them being the 1 seed either.

From the evidence we've seen I don't think it's a stretch to say this Boston team right now (without Irving or Hayward) would beat Toronto in the Play Offs this year.

I don't disagree with any of that, but give me some paths to change for Toronto? How do you restructure their roster? Being second or third fav in the East is a position a ton of franchises would love to be in.

NufcNavan wrote:

The Raptors lost by nearly 40 in an elimination game as the 1 seed. Of course heart and effort comes into it.

After going three games down with a buzzer beater dagger and playing away from home.

Meatyfubu

NufcNavan wrote: »

The Raptors lost by nearly 40 in an elimination game as the 1 seed. Of course heart and effort comes into it.

How do you conclude that it was heart and effort that contributed to this loss and not poor shot selection, lack of talent, poor coaching etc.
All of those are significantly more measurable than heart and effort unless you can show me something indicates this lack of effort outside of the difference in the scoreline?

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't disagree with any of that, but give me some paths to change for Toronto? How do you restructure their roster? Being second or third fav in the East is a position a ton of franchises would love to be in.

I honestly don't know. They've doubled down on what they have and the contracts mean they're pretty much untradeable. I can't imagine ANY team wanting Lowry at his age + contract + declining athletic ability.

I can see some market for DeRozan; but not at the level where Toronto value him which would be a big problem for any trade. In the crazy world of NBA trades someone might do something stupid to trade for him, but I don't see anyone with significant assets doing so.

Outside of that, I'm not sure what market there is for the rest of the roster.

I think however if they stand still they'll be overtaken.....and we'll be having the same conversation next summer except everyone is a year older. They need to do something - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results etc. etc.

I forget which pod it was but one of them stated there's really only 5-7 teams this summer who have cap space for a star. Now once things start to happen and the domino effect sets other things in motion, sure, that can change, but the fact the market is compressed hampers them too. I honestly don't see any easy or even logical path out of this for them and only see them going one way in the next 5 years.

Meatyfubu

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

LeBron now gets some much needed rest, which could be very significant in the Finals. If Philly could extend their series it's obviously even better.

I know it can be a controversial topic but - leaving aside any MJ comparisons - what LeBron is doing in the playoffs at 33 is truly incredible and we risk taking it for granted:

1st in minutes played (455)
1st in points per game (34.3)
1st in Defensive Rebounds (87)
1st in PER (35.6)
1st in Win Shares (3.2)
1st in Offensive Box Plus Minus (11.4)
1st in Defensive Box Plus Minus (4.8)
1st in Adjusted Box Plus Minus (16.2)
1st in Value Over Replacement Player (2.1)

I think nerds will look at series box scores like the Indiana one in a couple of decades and think 'wtf':

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2018-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-pacers-vs-cavaliers.html

I suppose all I'm trying to say here is that - as we move into the portion of the season where it becomes saturated with legacy and 'GOAT' talk - we should all try to just enjoy potentially the last season where he can play 40 mins plus a game and put up numbers like this.

It's a conversation for a later date for sure. That said the numbers are astounding, it's brilliant to watch, more and more players past and present are acknowledging his greatness and the conversation has certainly shifted from
"Well we know who number 1 is, now pick your next best" to pretty much "Well we know who number 1 & 2 are, now pick your next best".

That in itself is a testament to his greatness so who cares if it's one or two or even further down. He's an all-time great and we get to see him so often in the current era, it's incredible to watch

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I honestly don't know. They've doubled down on what they have and the contracts mean they're pretty much untradeable. I can't imagine ANY team wanting Lowry at his age + contract + declining athletic ability.

I can see some market for DeRozan; but not at the level where Toronto value him which would be a big problem for any trade. In the crazy world of NBA trades someone might do something stupid to trade for him, but I don't see anyone with significant assets doing so.

Outside of that, I'm not sure what market there is for the rest of the roster.

I think however if they stand still they'll be overtaken.....and we'll be having the same conversation next summer except everyone is a year older. They need to do something - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results etc. etc.

I forget which pod it was but one of them stated there's really only 5-7 teams this summer who have cap space for a star. Now once things start to happen and the domino effect sets other things in motion, sure, that can change, but the fact the market is compressed hampers them too. I honestly don't see any easy or even logical path out of this for them and only see them going one way in the next 5 years.

Well, when the above is all true, I'd change the coach. Fresh perspective after seven years could be helpful when you're locked into the core players for another two to three years with little or no flexibility.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, when the above is all true, I'd change the coach. Fresh perspective after seven years could be helpful when you're locked into the core players for another two to three years with little or no flexibility.

Yup, I guess they can do that, but tbh I don't think that in itself is going to alter all that much given the roster - it's not like they're getting Stevens, Pop or Spoelstra. To add to their problems, they have no draft picks this year.

ButtersSuki

As per Bill Plaschke, Clippers about to extend Doc Rivers. Very strange move IMO.

Can't wait until later this summer when Austin gets a max..... :rolleyes:

WHIP IT!

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You can't have it both ways. You can't say the contracts are bad in one breath, then advocate the GM to try and trade them away and improve with the other. If the contracts are bad, then they are locked into the window this group provides. As you can't move them for equivalent or superior value in the context of your roster.



The Raptors never trailed during regular time in game one; they were leading at HT in game two; they made a fourth quarter comeback to force a buzzer beater in game three. They played it tough and close across three games. I'm not sure this is an issue of "heart". It's too simplistic. For sure they'd have some plays back, but it wasn't an abject capitulation. The Cavs provide a very bad match up test for them; have the greatest player to ever walk the earth putting up ridiculous numbers across the series against them; and have a psychological advantage from the previous couple of years.

I get people being disappointed and annoyed but after a 59 win season, a roster with age largely on its side for the next three years and the potential for a huge shift in power in the conference this summer: you really have to just go once more into the breach next year. Even if LeBron resigns, their age profile moves things in their direction.

I say change the coach because a fresh approach and voice in the locker room could be the spur required. To put it another way, if people really think a trade or two does this what types of trades moves that are realistic for the likes of Lowry or Ibaka do they see?

I rarely pop in here anymore. Now I remember why. Does anyone over the age of 17 post in this Forum?? :eek: :rolleyes::D

Meatyfubu

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I rarely pop in here anymore. Now I remember why. Does anyone over the age of 17 post in this Forum?? :eek: :rolleyes::D

For me personally a post like that is a far bigger deterrent to viewing a thread regularly than someone stating something I disagree with.

WHIP IT!

Meatyfubu wrote: »

For me personally a post like that is a far bigger deterrent to viewing a thread regularly than someone stating something I disagree with.

What if it's something you realllllly disagree with? :pac:

Meatyfubu

WHIP IT! wrote: »

What if it's something you realllllly disagree with? :pac:

Then I'd say make a case for the alternative?? That seems like the logical thing and given you realllllly disagree the case for the alternative should be relatively easy to make.

WHIP IT!

Meatyfubu wrote: »

Then I'd say make a case for the alternative?? That seems like the logical thing and given you realllllly disagree the case for the alternative should be relatively easy to make.

It's Michael. We all know this.

Meatyfubu

WHIP IT! wrote: »

It's Michael. We all know this.

I guess that's case closed then. Before I get the usual "How old are you" or "LBJ fanboy" talk, I would agree that MJ is still in my eyes the best but it doesn't make your post any less silly.
You should post/read more though, LL is very good and is probably the biggest advocate for LBJ, his general posts and LBJ related posts make strong arguments that are worth contemplating.

WHIP IT!

Meatyfubu wrote: »

I guess that's case closed then. Before I get the usual "How old are you" or "LBJ fanboy" talk, I would agree that MJ is still in my eyes the best but it doesn't make your post any less silly.
You should post/read more though, LL is very good and is probably the biggest advocate for LBJ, his general posts and LBJ related posts make strong arguments that are worth contemplating.

You are correct.

LuckyLloyd

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I rarely pop in here anymore. Now I remember why. Does anyone over the age of 17 post in this Forum?? :eek: :rolleyes::D

I'm 17 * 2

I'd say being completely close minded on the topic as it develops infront of your eyes is immature, but I don't particularly care about how you perceive my opinions.

WHIP IT!

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm 17 * 2

I'd say being completely close minded on the topic as it develops infront of your eyes is immature, but I don't particularly care about how you perceive my opinions.

And why should you...