NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2017-18

Paully D

I still think the Cavs will take the next two at home.

LuckyLloyd

LeBron with another great game, third postseason 40+ point triple double of his career. Love was decent too. Cavs just getting straight up out coached.

NufcNavan

42/10/12 triple-double for lebron and the Cavs still lose by 13.

If you play the cavs instead of just seeing lebron out there, they are a crappy and very beatable basketball team.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

LeBron with another great game, third postseason 40+ point triple double of his career. Love was decent too. Cavs just getting straight up out coached.

There’s a lot more to it than just getting out coached now in fairness.

mjavi

This youth movement in Boston have the poise of playoff superstars, and have enough stamina to wear down Lebron. His monster game just can't keep the Cavs afloat, and he looked gassed by the 4th quarter. Let's see if Brown, Tatum, Rozier can 'steal' one in Cleveland, Game 3 would be a nailbiter finish. 
(As a lifelong Lakers fan) Its so much better now to cheer for the Celtics now that Pierce is gone and Kobe retired.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

LeBron with another great game, third postseason 40+ point triple double of his career. Love was decent too. Cavs just getting straight up out coached.

I mean the team that lebron put together is not good enough coaching is only one part of it

snotboogie

Pretty much playing out as I expected so far, Boston have a much better team than anybody is giving them credit for. Cleveland are extremely weak outside of Lebron and Love. Boston won't be as strong away from the Garden but I still think they'll split the games in Cleveland

ButtersSuki

As I've said many times and going back specifically to the 2015 Finals, you don't win it all with LeBron scoring 45ish (and for the pedants I know he scored 42 last night) and the rest of the team doing very little. You win with Lebron at 25-35 and several other players in double figures and above. Only James, Love and Korver (with 11) had double digit offence last night.

Everyone says Russel Westbrook needs to adjust and get his teammates more involved etc. Why does LBJ not come under the same scrutiny? They're very different players, but the principles still hold.

Part of playing with LeBron - and this has been discussed on many pods recently - is the "fear" of playing with him. Someguys just freeze. Sure that's mostly their fault, but he can't be immune from any criticism either.

ButtersSuki

From earlier in the Play Offs but still valid for their humour and the grain of truth hidden beneath them:

https://twitter.com/JeopardySports/status/990048457380585472

https://twitter.com/JeopardySports/status/984241819885154304

ButtersSuki

For anyone interested The Carter Effect, detailing the effect (sporting and cultural) that Vince Carter had on the city of Toronto, Canadian Basketball and on the Raptors as a franchise is now on Netflix. Produced by LeBron James & Maverick Carter it has some interesting moments even though it's very short at just 60mins. It's largely a puff piece, and though it features some interesting snippets from ex and current players, coaches, David Stern, etc., there's far too much Drake in it. It has the feel that they just had an hour with Carter too to film all of his parts. It could have been so much better from a basketball and indeed human perspectives if they had stretched it to 2+hours, but it's not awful either and worth a look as a basketball fan.

It's now on Netflix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9uAuQCc3IE

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As I've said many times and going back specifically to the 2015 Finals, you don't win it all with LeBron scoring 45ish (and for the pedants I know he scored 42 last night) and the rest of the team doing very little. You win with Lebron at 25-35 and several other players in double figures and above. Only James, Love and Korver (with 11) had double digit offence last night.

Everyone says Russel Westbrook needs to adjust and get his teammates more involved etc. Why does LBJ not come under the same scrutiny? They're very different players, but the principles still hold.

Part of playing with LeBron - and this has been discussed on many pods recently - is the "fear" of playing with him. Someguys just freeze. Sure that's mostly their fault, but he can't be immune from any criticism either.

In fairness to lebron he looks to bring teammates into the game more than most players Westbrook is very much score first and then get enough rebounds/assist for a triple double. Lebron generally only goes into scoring 45ish mode when he has no other option so I don't think that's fair

ButtersSuki

Marcel Delightful Viewfinder wrote: »

In fairness to lebron he looks to bring teammates into the game more than most players Westbrook is very much score first and then get enough rebounds/assist for a triple double. Lebron generally only goes into scoring 45ish mode when he has no other option so I don't think that's fair

In my defence, I did say "they're very different players" (see below); but the narrative around LeBron for most of the mainstream media has become when he wins it's all him and when he loses he has no support and I don't think that's telling the full story. I stand by the post that he can't be immune from the "playing in LeBron's shadow" phenomenon. He's not getting a huge amount of help sure, but the way he plays (despite the assists stats) at times doesn't help.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As I've said many times and going back specifically to the 2015 Finals, you don't win it all with LeBron scoring 45ish (and for the pedants I know he scored 42 last night) and the rest of the team doing very little. You win with Lebron at 25-35 and several other players in double figures and above. Only James, Love and Korver (with 11) had double digit offence last night.

Everyone says Russel Westbrook needs to adjust and get his teammates more involved etc. Why does LBJ not come under the same scrutiny? They're very different players, but the principles still hold.

Part of playing with LeBron - and this has been discussed on many pods recently - is the "fear" of playing with him. Some guys just freeze. Sure that's mostly their fault, but he can't be immune from any criticism either.

But when he wins it is all him the team around him is brutal there probably a top lottery team without him

ButtersSuki

Marcel Delightful Viewfinder wrote: »

But when he wins it is all him the team around him is brutal there probably a top lottery team without him

You for realise Kevin Love is a perennial All Star AND was an All Star this year, right? And I’ve repeatedly said they use him very poorly.

How many lottery teams have All Stars?

And no, it’s not all him when they win - despite the fact he gets a disproportionate amount of the credit. When he’s won championships he had multiple All Stars: Wade and Bosh in Miami, Kyrie (41 in Game 7) and Love in Cleveland.

ButtersSuki

Also, the post trade hype when the Cavs went young and athletic and then beat the crap out of Boston (with Kyrie) in I think their first (possibly second) game out seems to have been forgotten by the same people who were championing the Cavs then. They weren’t crap players then; they were young, quick, athletic and ready to make the next step. Now they can’t get into the rotation - is that because LeBron has publicly stated he wants to win or lose with the guys he knows, is it because those younger players are playing in fear of making a mistake with him on the court, or is it because Lue is a crap coach way out of his depth? Or all of the above?

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

You for realise Kevin Love is a perennial All Star AND was an All Star this year, right? And I’ve repeatedly said they use him very poorly.

How many lottery teams have All Stars?

And no, it’s not all him when they win - despite the fact he gets a disproportionate amount of the credit. When he’s won championships he had multiple All Stars: Wade and Bosh in Miami, Kyrie (41 in Game 7) and Love in Cleveland.

Loves a very good player who managed to get Minnesota to the playoffs a grand total of 0 times.

Name me a superstar who has won a championship without another all-star?

I'm far from lebrons biggest fan but Jesus the guys amazing

Gregk961

Side stepping the LeBron stuff(It's been done to death 1 million times) for the moment, the Cavs failures this year have had more to do with executive decisions than on the court stuff.

Losing David Griffin after the finals left them lagging behind in the Summer- The new GM couldn't make any meaningful trades, the Kyrie deal has (with hindsight) been a bust and they kept on a head coach who is not that good in my honest opinion. Im not blaming the GM for a lot of that stuff by the way.

The deadline day deal was a decent throw of the dice but ultimately it was just that, a gamble. It hasn't really paid off when you look at the numbers they have got off these guys and in fairness the cavs have also been a bit unlucky with Love's injury and Tristan forgetting how to play basketball.

So yeah, I blame Dan Gilbert!

ButtersSuki

Marcel Delightful Viewfinder wrote: »

Loves a very good player who managed to get Minnesota to the playoffs a grand total of 0 times.

Name me a superstar who has won a championship without another all-star?

I'm far from lebrons biggest fan but Jesus the guys amazing

Where did I say he's not amazing? Once again if you say anything critical of him here you're deemed a LeBron hater. I've said repeatedly - but no matter how many times I've said it it doesn't seem to sink in - that he's the best player on the planet right now. That doesn't mean however he's immune from criticism and doesn't mean he's perfect.

Did I at any point say anyone had one a championship with no other All Stars? No. But hey, change the narrative to suit your argument whilst avoiding answering any of the questions I put to you.

Love and Minnesota? Oh yeah he had a tonne of help there. And he was in what conference was it again? Oh yeah, the West.

ButtersSuki

Gregk961 wrote: »

Side stepping the LeBron stuff(It's been done to death 1 million times) for the moment, the Cavs failures this year have had more to do with executive decisions than on the court stuff.

Losing David Griffin after the finals left them lagging behind in the Summer- The new GM couldn't make any meaningful trades, the Kyrie deal has (with hindsight) been a bust and they kept on a head coach who is not that good in my honest opinion. Im not blaming the GM for a lot of that stuff by the way.

The deadline day deal was a decent throw of the dice but ultimately it was just that, a gamble. It hasn't really paid off when you look at the numbers they have got off these guys and in fairness the cavs have also been a bit unlucky with Love's injury and Tristan forgetting how to play basketball.

So yeah, I blame Dan Gilbert!

Gilbert is not exactly the best owner in the league. Firing Griffin was a pretty big mistake, but Gilbert has history with GMs after 3 years so this was not the first bad move he's made.

As for the front office mistakes, they've made many.

BUT you're ignoring the fact that LeBron's contract situation (one years at max) and refusal to discuss forward plans with them in each and every off season since he returned (as per Windhorst and several other sources) also hampers them significantly.

AND you're also ignoring the fact that he got many of the players on the Championship Team and the current team jobs because they were represented by Clutch AND that they got overpaid and that the consequences of that are plain to see now and will be in the future if he leaves.

But let's sweep all that under the counter shall we?

Gregk961

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Gilbert is not exactly the best owner in the league. Firing Griffin was a pretty big mistake, but Gilbert has history with GMs after 3 years so this was not the first bad move he's made.

As for the front office mistakes, they've made many.

BUT you're ignoring the fact that LeBron's contract situation (one years at max) and refusal to discuss forward plans with them in each and every off season since he returned (as per Windhorst and several other sources) also hampers them significantly.

AND you're also ignoring the fact that he got many of the players on the Championship Team and the current team jobs because they were represented by Clutch AND that they got overpaid and that the consequences of that are plain to see now and will be in the future if he leaves.

But let's sweep all that under the counter shall we?

For Christ sake is there a page in this entire thread where somebody does not mention LeBron? Clearly you have no interest in moving on from this bullsh1t and want to type up another 50 essays on "Why Lebron is great, buuut...."

You are even more obsessed than the fanboy headbangers who spend the day commenting underneath YouTube videos about how great he is. It's not healthy to be so fixated on one person, enjoy watching him play or bask in his defeats but don't let a man who doesn't even know you exist take up so much room in your brain. It's very weak minded to be honest.

You do not have a unique view on the subject, nor a particularly interesting one. At least the LBJ pyjama squad have a positive, glass half-full kind of outlook. Much more tolerable than the sheer negativity that pours out of their rivals.

ButtersSuki

Very weak minded? Thanks for they amateur psychology read.:rolleyes:

Way to participate in a debate.

I am in no way obsessed with LeBron; but it’s great to see that being a critic of elements of his game now makes me “weak minded”. :pac:

ButtersSuki

In other news, Houston beat GS in game 2 by 22.

3 Houston players scored 20+, with another two scoring 15+.

Harden dipped his individual production from over 40pts to 27, more players got involved with a greater spread of scoring and they won. If only someone had suggested such a formula could possibly win at elite level basketball for beating teams? Oh...wait...

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Where did I say he's not amazing? Once again if you say anything critical of him here you're deemed a LeBron hater. I've said repeatedly - but no matter how many times I've said it it doesn't seem to sink in - that he's the best player on the planet right now. That doesn't mean however he's immune from criticism and doesn't mean he's perfect.

Did I at any point say anyone had one a championship with no other All Stars? No. But hey, change the narrative to suit your argument whilst avoiding answering any of the questions I put to you.

Love and Minnesota? Oh yeah he had a tonne of help there. And he was in what conference was it again? Oh yeah, the West.

I don't think he's immune to critasism but you absoloutly can't blame him for anything that's happening on the court right now

If you want to say he's caused this off the court that's fair enough there was no gm fired or traded made without at least lebrons approval but purely as a player he's been immense. Love probably does not fit and could do more on another team but I'm not sure how they use him consistently to his best with lebron.

With regard the all star comment you said he's won all his championships with love//kyre or wade/bosh so unless you are holding rb him to a different standard to every superstar in history that's not relivant

2smiggy

Marcel Delightful Viewfinder wrote: »

I don't think he's immune to critasism but you absoloutly can't blame him for anything that's happening on the court right now

I'd imagine he had a lot to do with Thomas and Crowder being moved on. I think they would be better with them on the team IMO, even though Thomas ended up injured again. Love looks a shell of the player he was a few years ago, and he is only 29. Any other team and I'd bet he would be playing way better.

ButtersSuki

Marcel Delightful Viewfinder wrote: »

I don't think he's immune to critasism but you absoloutly can't blame him for anything that's happening on the court right now

Great! At last someone on boards.ie who agrees he's not immune from criticism!

NOW BEFORE I SAY THE NEXT PART LET ME STATE AGAIN HE'S THE BEST PLAYER ON THE PLANET, ok? That said, as for can't blame him for anything that's going on on the floor right now, one really obvious example is he's not getting back on defence after misses (particularly his own) Boston have been clearly targetting this - I said it after Game 1 and they continued it in Game 2. That's just effort, nothing to do with talent.

Surely you'll agree to that?

Now if he's making a call that he's doing this deliberately and saving his energy for offence that's fine...unless you're losing games by double digits.

For the record, I think they'll (Cavs) likely win the next 2 and they'll go back to Boston level, but if he continues that type of play in Game 5 and beyond they may get caught out.

Marcel Delightful Viewfinder wrote: »

If you want to say he's caused this off the court that's fair enough there was no gm fired or traded made without at least lebrons approval but purely as a player he's been immense. Love probably does not fit and could do more on another team but I'm not sure how they use him consistently to his best with lebron.

I've never said he's not been great in these Play Offs; but they've beaten Indiana in 7 (a team no one even thought would make the Play Offs) and beaten up a mentally weak Raptors team that's now staring into the abyss.

Marcel Delightful Viewfinder wrote: »

With regard the all star comment you said he's won all his championships with love//kyre or wade/bosh so unless you are holding rb him to a different standard to every superstar in history that's not relivant

It is relevant, and I only brought it up because of your comment:

"But when he wins it is all him the team around him is brutal there probably a top lottery team without him"

It's not all him. Is he the biggest part of it? Sure. Is it all him? No. No-one says even Jordan did it all himself and had no help. LeBron seems to get almost 100% of the credit if they win and 0% of the blame if they lose.

Ya fair enough don't disagree with any of that tbh

Carcharodon

ButtersSuki wrote: »

In other news, Houston beat GS in game 2 by 22.

3 Houston players scored 20+, with another two scoring 15+.

Harden dipped his individual production from over 40pts to 27, more players got involved with a greater spread of scoring and they won. If only someone had suggested such a formula could possibly win at elite level basketball for beating teams? Oh...wait...

Hats off to Houston, they just did what Warriors did to them in first game. Iam not surprised, you don’t win that many games and then suddenly become insignificant.
Iam also not too worried yet, we see this all the time, Warriors will make adjustments and with the home crowd behind them they are more likely to go on the big runs.
Curry didn’t shoot well from the 3, only player that seemed on his game was Durrant.
All of Houston’s players played well, that will be hard to keep up
Curry got isolated and burned on defense a lot, that really needs to be addressed

I also hope someone knocks Chris Paul out, he really irks me but that’s just my illogical fan brain

ButtersSuki

Luca saying he may not play in the NBA next year. Wonder is it a negotiating tactic of some sort, o is there genuine substance behind it? If it's real (which I doubt btw), it could really damage his stock.

snotboogie

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Luca saying he may not play in the NBA next year. Wonder is it a negotiating tactic of some sort, o is there genuine substance behind it? If it's real (which I doubt btw), it could really damage his stock.

He is rightfully terrified of being drafted by the Kings

ButtersSuki

Carcharodon wrote: »

Hats off to Houston, they just did what Warriors did to them in first game. Iam not surprised, you don’t win that many games and then suddenly become insignifica.
Iam also not too worried yet, we see this all the time, Warriors will make adjustments and with the home crowd behind them they are more likely to go on the big runs.
Curry didn’t shoot well from the 3, only player that seemed on his game was Durrant.
All of Houston’s players played well, that will be hard to keep up
Curry got isolated and burned on defense a lot, that really needs to be addressed

Just watched the full game - they picked on Curry a lot from the eye test. Durant got his but it's kinda iso-ey and not very team oriented (he has just one assist in 2 games). Klay wasn't exactly on fire and the rest of the team didn't exactly do much. Steph isn't 100%, not a chance - he's really only had 1 good game since he came back. The rest days will hopefully help. They got out run, outscored in the paint and outscored from 3 - unusual for them. What I'd be least worried about would be Houston repeating that kind of team performance where Tucker gets that many wide open 3's and scores more than Klay + Steph combined. Turnovers killed them too - KD had 5 in the first quarter alone, no Warrior had more than 3 the entire Game 1. I'd still suspect they win the next 2 at home.

Simmons gave a good stat on the Zach Lowe pod earlier in the week. They (GS) have a 300 pass figure they want to hit for every game. In the two games they lost prior to last night, they had less than 300 passes. They were well short of it last night with just 272.

Carcharodon wrote: »

I also hope someone knocks Chris Paul out, he really irks me but that’s just my illogical fan brain

It's not as illogical as you think....there's an awful lot of players who really dislike Chris Paul for it seems a variety of reasons; his dirty play (very real), his perceived duplicity (whether real of not), poor team mate/locker room guy etc. It's been mentioned numerous times on the various pods over the year, the Griffin fall out/bust up is obvious, the Doc fall out (not that I rate Doc much any more to be fair to him on that one!),....it goes on and on. They had Stephen Jackson on one of those talking heads shows recently and he went to town on him, and Kenyon Martin did too on The Herd. A very unpopular guy, and yet President of the Players Association.