Breastfeeding - why bother?

seamus

blackbird86 wrote: »

Different babies have different temperaments, just because your first was unsettled on the boob it doesn't mean all breastfed babies are like that or that your next will be.

This. Our first was quite windy and whingey. And while she did well on the boob, at 3 months+ it was starting to become a real struggle for my wife waking multiple times per night, or feeding for ages only to see it puked up again all over the bed.

She went back to work at 4 months, so combo feeding started, which took the pressure off a little, but it was still there. She enjoyed it insofar as she appreciated the closeness, but found it a big struggle and gave up around 7 months.

The 2nd by comparison was a much more contented and relaxed child, far less waking, far less puking, and BF was just so much easier and more convenient that she kept at it until the child basically rejected it (by biting a lot and not feeding at all) around 8 months. Had that not happened, my wife would have happily kept going.

Now that we're in bottlefeeding land, having to bring all the stuff with you when you go out, constantly having to think about boiling the kettle, when did it boil, can the child wait 30 minutes or will we use a pre-prepared bottle, have we remembered to sterilise the bottles, etc. It definitely has its own pain points that don't exist with breastfeeding.

Sesame

Your "wrong" is my normal. Although I would have probably had an opinion similar to yours before I ever had babies. It just became normal for us and no any different from feeding a younger baby.

scarepanda

catrionanic wrote: »

I’m now gearing up for the next round of opinions, as he’s getting closer to one, which will be the people telling me that I should stop now, that it’s weird to keep feeding him, that I’m doing it for me and not him, etc.

I was expecting this as well catrionanic coming up to a year old, but tbh it wasn't as bad as I expected. Iv found that once I got through the more demanding type questions around 6 months, people seemed to accept that we'll finish when we finish. Iv always given wishy washy open ended answers as to when I planned to finish (because I honestly don't know) and now all I seem to get are the more curious, but not really judgemental question of 'are you still breastfeeding' and that's seems to be as far as the questioning goes.

Sesame

I think its more accepted in the last couple of years than ever before too. There seems to be a resurgence of breastfeeders and its not as alien as it once was.

hometruths

I'm a father who was wholeheartedly behind my partners firm stance on breastfeeding because I believe it is a more natural source of food. My support wavered when our child struggled to gain weight for the first 6 weeks of her life and then actually started losing weight.

jlm29 wrote: »

I think that a lot of the people who are accused of being breastfeeding "evangelists" and other such labels, aren't actually that bothered, but they just want to help, because they know how shockingly bad the help and support actually is.

Not in my personal experience.

My partner attended a local breastfeeding support group run by Cuidiu, and they did not actually want to help, they just constantly patted each other on the back for breast feeding and being violently opposed to to feeding formula.

They did not stop to question was the child getting enough food?

For the first ten weeks of her life she was constantly upset unless she was on the boob, something the people providing "help and support" interpreted as a sign she was bonding brilliantly.

I could see she was hungry. When I suggested we tried to get a doctor to check her feeding my partner was angry with me, because "they'll just recommend formula" - this was an attitude picked up in the support group, avoid listening to anyone who might even consider formula feeding, even the child's father.

Anybody well meaning who mentioned in passing was that our daughter was very thin was shunned, as again the inference was the breast feeding was not going well, but sure as long as the experts in the support group were happy that was the most important thing.

Eventually my partner agreed to see a lactation consultant, but only one who had been vetted as "pro breast feeding/anti formula". She diagnosed a tongue tie and confirmed that our daughter was not getting enough to eat despite being on the boob almost every waking minute.

Apart from obviously recommended fixing the tongue tie the consultants recommendation was:

"I would suggest the plan moving forward is to feed at the breast as much as possible. Use breast compressions to keep her feeding as long as possible. Superswitch pump in the evenings (on for 20 mins, off for 10, on for 10, off for 10, on for 10). This works on the prolactin levels to increase milk for the days coming. Add 120 mls of milk to her daily breastfeeds. You can do this by bottle, cup, SNS or syringe. I suggest 4 x 30 ml amounts spread over the day. If you are using bottles use the paced bottle feeding system, leaflet attached. We would expect to see a gain of 30 grammes per day or around 200 grammes per week"

I lost it and tried to point out that formula is not poison! By refusing to give it to her we were quite clearly damaging her health. I gave it a weeks ultimatum and insisted we fed her formula if no improvement. After faffing about with pumps and syringes for a week with no improvement we finally gave her a bottle of formula.

The effect was instant. My partner felt she had failed as a mother but our daughter was an immediately happier child, and started gaining weight immediately.

Our daughter was dangerously close to being hospitalised like an earlier poster, and I still can't bear to look at photos of her from that time because she looks so painfully thin and unhealthy.

When I did some research about breastfeeding support I discovered that our experience is by no means uncommon. The pressure on the mothers in the support groups is so great that they can actually not recognise when they are harming their child.

We are expecting our second child next year and whilst I am hopeful our child will be breastfed successfully I will no way be as "supportive" of "breast is best" as I was the first time round. At the first sign of trouble I will be lorrying formula into my child and I could not give a f*ck what anyone thinks, least of all the people who "just want to help, because they know how shockingly bad the help and support actually is."

Apologies for the long post but I get so angry when I hear statements like the one I quoted. Breastfeeding evangelists do not actually provide any meaningful help and support, beyond massaging each others egos.

jlm29

schmittel wrote: »

I'm a father who was wholeheartedly behind my partners firm stance on breastfeeding because I believe it is a more natural source of food. My support wavered when our child struggled to gain weight for the first 6 weeks of her life and then actually started losing weight.



Not in my personal experience.

My partner attended a local breastfeeding support group run by Cuidiu, and they did not actually want to help, they just constantly patted each other on the back for breast feeding and being violently opposed to to feeding formula.

They did not stop to question was the child getting enough food?

For the first ten weeks of her life she was constantly upset unless she was on the boob, something the people providing "help and support" interpreted as a sign she was bonding brilliantly.

I could see she was hungry. When I suggested we tried to get a doctor to check her feeding my partner was angry with me, because "they'll just recommend formula" - this was an attitude picked up in the support group, avoid listening to anyone who might even consider formula feeding, even the child's father.

Anybody well meaning who mentioned in passing was that our daughter was very thin was shunned, as again the inference was the breast feeding was not going well, but sure as long as the experts in the support group were happy that was the most important thing.

Eventually my partner agreed to see a lactation consultant, but only one who had been vetted as "pro breast feeding/anti formula". She diagnosed a tongue tie and confirmed that our daughter was not getting enough to eat despite being on the boob almost every waking minute.

Apart from obviously recommended fixing the tongue tie the consultants recommendation was:

"I would suggest the plan moving forward is to feed at the breast as much as possible. Use breast compressions to keep her feeding as long as possible. Superswitch pump in the evenings (on for 20 mins, off for 10, on for 10, off for 10, on for 10). This works on the prolactin levels to increase milk for the days coming. Add 120 mls of milk to her daily breastfeeds. You can do this by bottle, cup, SNS or syringe. I suggest 4 x 30 ml amounts spread over the day. If you are using bottles use the paced bottle feeding system, leaflet attached. We would expect to see a gain of 30 grammes per day or around 200 grammes per week"

I lost it and tried to point out that formula is not poison! By refusing to give it to her we were quite clearly damaging her health. I gave it a weeks ultimatum and insisted we fed her formula if no improvement. After faffing about with pumps and syringes for a week with no improvement we finally gave her a bottle of formula.

The effect was instant. My partner felt she had failed as a mother but our daughter was an immediately happier child, and started gaining weight immediately.

Our daughter was dangerously close to being hospitalised like an earlier poster, and I still can't bear to look at photos of her from that time because she looks so painfully thin and unhealthy.

When I did some research about breastfeeding support I discovered that our experience is by no means uncommon. The pressure on the mothers in the support groups is so great that they can actually not recognise when they are harming their child.

We are expecting our second child next year and whilst I am hopeful our child will be breastfed successfully I will no way be as "supportive" of "breast is best" as I was the first time round. At the first sign of trouble I will be lorrying formula into my child and I could not give a f*ck what anyone thinks, least of all the people who "just want to help, because they know how shockingly bad the help and support actually is."

Apologies for the long post but I get so angry when I hear statements like the one I quoted. Breastfeeding evangelists do not actually provide any meaningful help and support, beyond massaging each others egos.

Your wife was very unfortunate to have attended a Cuidu group like that. I have found the one I sometimes attend to be totally different, and no one has ever massaged anyone's ego, or patted anyone on the back.
I would hate other people reading your post to believe that they're all awful, because that might put people off ever attending any of them.

comongethappy

schmittel wrote: »

I'm a father who was wholeheartedly behind my partners firm stance on breastfeeding because I believe it is a more natural source of food. My support wavered when our child struggled to gain weight for the first 6 weeks of her life and then actually started losing weight.



Not in my personal experience.

My partner attended a local breastfeeding support group run by Cuidiu, and they did not actually want to help, they just constantly patted each other on the back for breast feeding and being violently opposed to to feeding formula.

They did not stop to question was the child getting enough food?

For the first ten weeks of her life she was constantly upset unless she was on the boob, something the people providing "help and support" interpreted as a sign she was bonding brilliantly.

I could see she was hungry. When I suggested we tried to get a doctor to check her feeding my partner was angry with me, because "they'll just recommend formula" - this was an attitude picked up in the support group, avoid listening to anyone who might even consider formula feeding, even the child's father.

Anybody well meaning who mentioned in passing was that our daughter was very thin was shunned, as again the inference was the breast feeding was not going well, but sure as long as the experts in the support group were happy that was the most important thing.

Eventually my partner agreed to see a lactation consultant, but only one who had been vetted as "pro breast feeding/anti formula". She diagnosed a tongue tie and confirmed that our daughter was not getting enough to eat despite being on the boob almost every waking minute.

Apart from obviously recommended fixing the tongue tie the consultants recommendation was:

"I would suggest the plan moving forward is to feed at the breast as much as possible. Use breast compressions to keep her feeding as long as possible. Superswitch pump in the evenings (on for 20 mins, off for 10, on for 10, off for 10, on for 10). This works on the prolactin levels to increase milk for the days coming. Add 120 mls of milk to her daily breastfeeds. You can do this by bottle, cup, SNS or syringe. I suggest 4 x 30 ml amounts spread over the day. If you are using bottles use the paced bottle feeding system, leaflet attached. We would expect to see a gain of 30 grammes per day or around 200 grammes per week"

I lost it and tried to point out that formula is not poison! By refusing to give it to her we were quite clearly damaging her health. I gave it a weeks ultimatum and insisted we fed her formula if no improvement. After faffing about with pumps and syringes for a week with no improvement we finally gave her a bottle of formula.

The effect was instant. My partner felt she had failed as a mother but our daughter was an immediately happier child, and started gaining weight immediately.

Our daughter was dangerously close to being hospitalised like an earlier poster, and I still can't bear to look at photos of her from that time because she looks so painfully thin and unhealthy.

When I did some research about breastfeeding support I discovered that our experience is by no means uncommon. The pressure on the mothers in the support groups is so great that they can actually not recognise when they are harming their child.

We are expecting our second child next year and whilst I am hopeful our child will be breastfed successfully I will no way be as "supportive" of "breast is best" as I was the first time round. At the first sign of trouble I will be lorrying formula into my child and I could not give a f*ck what anyone thinks, least of all the people who "just want to help, because they know how shockingly bad the help and support actually is."

Apologies for the long post but I get so angry when I hear statements like the one I quoted. Breastfeeding evangelists do not actually provide any meaningful help and support, beyond massaging each others egos.

I am sorry your wife had such a bad experience with the support group. I think the lactation consultant's advice would have been fine if the TT was caught and treated much earlier, but as baby was losing weight I think it was poor advice not to advise formula top ups. Yes it can affect supply, but your wife could have done the extra pumping to keep supply up and eventually wean off formula once the baby was gaining and feeding properly.

While nothing compares to breast milk, I do feel it's wonderful that formula is there to protect and help babies thrive where there are breastfeeding problems that need time to sort or for when there are personal / family issues etc where it just works out better for the family to combine or solely formula feed. I just feel it's a pity that many won't try to breast feed or even just get the colostrum into the baby.

I hope your wife has an easier time bf the next, but please do see a lactation consultant regarding tongue tie as often other babies can have it, and from friends experiences, see a consultant outside of the hospital too to verify if the hospital consultant says there are none.

fits

comongethappy wrote: »

.

While nothing compares to breast milk, I do feel it's wonderful that formula is there to protect and help babies thrive where there are breastfeeding problems that need time to sort or for when there are personal / family issues etc where it just works out better for the family to combine or solely formula feed. I just feel it's a pity that many won't try to breast feed or even just get the colostrum into the baby.
.

This. Formula is wonderful. When used like a medicine forbabies who need it. But in my experience there is an over reliance on it when breasferding solutions can be found. Breastfeeding should be seen as the default way to feed.

Anyway. I'm feeding 10 month old twins. It's gone well. I love it. And have no intention of stopping.

PhoenixParker

jlm29 wrote: »

Your wife was very unfortunate to have attended a Cuidu group like that. I have found the one I sometimes attend to be totally different, and no one has ever massaged anyone's ego, or patted anyone on the back.
I would hate other people reading your post to believe that they're all awful, because that might put people off ever attending any of them.

See jlm you say this and talk about how breastfeeders are just trying to be helpful but you (amongst many others) give advice like this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104726374&postcount=23

A two week old baby with a weight gain of 3oz is cause for concern and additional monitoring. The PHN's advice was probably overzealous, she later walked it back, but she had seen the baby and was in a position to give medical advice. You and everyone else on that thread had not and are not. The advice - to absolutely not offer formula as though it's poison, to dismiss everything the PHN said, to report her was potentially lethally dangerous.

It gobsmacks me how over confident and dangerous that is and how the breastfeeding community do it on a daily basis. Yes there's a nod towards talk to a lactation consultant or visit a cuidiu group but it's almost an afterthought.

If there genuinely is a problem there, at best you have seriously delayed that baby getting the food it needs, at worst the baby will end up in hospital. You've also made the job of well educated and responsible medical practitioners intervening when it's genuinely needed more difficult.

Later in the thread wet and dirty nappies are held up as the gold standard, they are not, weight gain is 100% the gold standard. Wet and dirty nappies are an indicator that feeding is going well, but that's all. They're not even a great indicator.
This is the study about wet and dirty nappies:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0890334407311538
If you read the abstract you'll see that both the sensitivity and specificity are low (basically many babies who had apparently normal diaper counts were not receiving adequate food) when you consider that they're talking about making sure a newborn is adequately fed.

Moving on from that

The absolute confidence that low supply is a rare issue and if the mothers with low supply didn't top up then they would magically make more milk.

It's not that rare. The research is poor but the lowest estimates I've seen put it at 4% of the population. The highest estimates I've seen put it at 15%.
The lower end estimate, 4 % is one in 25 people with low supply, that's low supply related to either a capacity or a refill issue not tongue tie.

Somehow or other this idea that tongue tie is the only possible cause of supply/transfer problems needs to get out of your heads.

For anyone reading this some possible indicators of future supply issues are:
1) known insulin resistance, 2) breasts that do not change size during pregnancy, 3) known thyroid issues 4) tubular breasts, i.e. widely spaced, sort of triangular shape, nipples at the very end, lack of fullness underneath

I see a lot too about the "slippery slope of topping up"
In my experience it wasn't a slippery slope.
Baby's needs increase as they get bigger, if you have low supply and your milk supply doesn't grow with baby's needs then you'll need to top up a little more as they get bigger.

I am now breastfeeding a 13 month old. He's been topped up every feed since he was four weeks old. He loves both his formula and his boob. That's in spite of the breastfeeding community not because of it.

For anyone who believes they are experiencing low supply, pm me and I will put you in touch with an excellent facebook group who offer support for mothers in similar situations. It is perfectly possible, if you need to, to combine supplementing with breastfeeding and have an amazing breastfeeding relationship.

jlm29

But I didn't ever say formula is poison and should never be given. I said the PHN was spouting nonsense- which I would still say. I acknowledge that I didn't specifically quote the line i thought was nonsense "she said I should be getting 2.5oz from each breast"- which I should have. That's a ridiculous thing to say. No one knows how much milk in ounces a breastfed infant is taking, that's. why they use weight gain as an indicator. And then I said I thought a second opinion would be a good idea. The baby referred to in that thread had regained to birth weight quite quickly, and was still gaining weight. At no point did I tell anyone to ignore concerns regarding weight gain.

Anne_cordelia

Phoenix - if someone is asking on a breastfeeding support thread they are asking for a breastfeeding solution to a breastfeeding problem. Formula is not the solution. The first port of call to any breastfeeding problem should of course be breastfeeding friendly. Formula is a great back up when a breastfeeding solution doesn’t work.

shesty

Most of these conversations actually highlight the conflicting information and lack of support that is available.

Relying on Cuidiu groups, getting an extra lactation consultant to confirm the hospital consultant's advice, getting very different advice from PHNs.....really if it was done properly there should be trained lactation midwives and doctors available in hospitals, all giving the same (or similar) advice, and plenty of available support on a day to day basis for the weeks after the birth.Breastfeeding groups are great, but a mother needs access to medical support too, and many mothers don't get it.It is a tough thing to do and the fact that so many manage to do it on their own is a feat in itself.

I feel that if the support was in place many of these conversations wouldn't even be happening.

fits

Agree. The lack of support is shocking. Were it not for two amazingfacebook groups aimed at breastfeeding twins I doubt I'd still be feeding. And I supplemented at the start too. Many twin mums have to. Watched the weight gain like a hawk. The first rule is feed the baby.

hometruths

fits wrote: »

Watched the weight gain like a hawk. The first rule is feed the baby.

Exactly, it is quite simple. Anyone who thinks the breastfeeding vs formula debate is worth having whilst the baby is losing weight needs their head examined.

Digs

shesty wrote: »

Most of these conversations actually highlight the conflicting information and lack of support that is available.

Relying on Cuidiu groups, getting an extra lactation consultant to confirm the hospital consultant's advice, getting very different advice from PHNs.....really if it was done properly there should be trained lactation midwives and doctors available in hospitals, all giving the same (or similar) advice, and plenty of available support on a day to day basis for the weeks after the birth.Breastfeeding groups are great, but a mother needs access to medical support too, and many mothers don't get it.It is a tough thing to do and the fact that so many manage to do it on their own is a feat in itself.

I feel that if the support was in place many of these conversations wouldn't even be happening.

Nail on the head.

It is disgraceful the lack of support. I feel so many more mothers would succeed in breastfeeding if there was better support in place. The hospitals just aren’t equipped to provide adequate support, well Holles Street isn’t anyway.

I can’t fault the support of cuidiu, an amazing woman saved me on the phone twice at a time I was so so so upset and feeling completely alone on my second baby. After a fiasco with my first baby breastfeeding I thought I was completely prepared having sought the services of an extremely well known LC. She let me down so badly, when I think of it I still can’t believe how she conducted herself and we paid handsomely for it, my husband is so angry after our experience with her. I fought for every bit of support though and thanks to cuidiu (women who give up their time for free) and a fantastic PHN who ran a breastfeeding clinic and also boards breastfeeding thread, Bovril I think in particular!

Getting support shouldn’t be this hard for women, it should be in place. Breastfeeding is 100% the hardest thing I’ve ever done (severe nipple damage) yet I’d do it again if I have more children because it’s something I want to do. A bit more support with it though would help immensely.

LirW

Ah jesus, don't get me started on PHNs.

My first one was breastfed and he was the Michelin baby while my second one failed to thrive.
We were off to a good start but she didn't gain weight. I got slaughtered by the PHN that I'm not doing the best for my baby and I have to try harder. I was absolutely devastated, every advice that I got was to keep on feeding and I tried so hard - mind you, I already breastfed a baby. She didn't gain weight at all and for her best interest I called it a day when she was 4 months and it was such a good decision because she caught up in no time.
My little girl has a tied lip and a lot of doctors aren't able to diagnose it, because in most cases a tied lip wouldn't influence the feeding. I had a doctor, that's well known for releasing tongue ties telling me that she wouldn't see me for just a lip tie.
I finally have an apt to have it released and well examined in a few days.
I was a bit sad not being able to keep on feeding her but seeing her thrive made me a million times happier.

Honestly, no matter how you do it, you do it wrong. The support you get from medical staff is a joke, you'd either get treated as a bad mother or nobody listens. Feeding became such a competition and more of an ideology, it's sad.
Do whatever is right for you and your baby, nothing else matters but your family's well-being.

shesty

I have a friend who has had two kids in Canada....over there, the system is set up for breastfeeding.By her account bottle feeding is pretty much the secondary option.
Hearing her accounts of what support she had at the same time that I was muddling through relying on snippets of different advice from midwives, a PHN who kept checking the latch and nothing else (and I don't mean checking for tongue tie, although tbh I don't blame her, she clearly didn't have any bit of knowledge about it), and bits of advice from friends....it just felt so unfair.

I accept cuidiu are a great group but like so many parts of the health service, they are a volunteer group filling a big hole in the maternity services, thereby removing the need for the HSE to actually have to take responsibility for providing proper lactation services.

I guess it's up to mothers (well, everybody really)to try to change the system somehow instead of accepting it and struggling on.

LirW

I think it's also quite important to acknowledge that a lot of women have to return to work early on and simply don't want to bother starting breastfeeding because working full time and breastfeeding is beyond difficult.

fits

unregforthisone wrote: »

Add in feeds every 2 hours and my life was ruined

I just have to quote this bit. I'm just wondering if people seeing behaviour of a formula fed baby as the norm when it shouldn't be. Babies feed often. One of my ten month old twins still feeds at least every two hours in the daytime. I consider this normal. Babies impact your life end of story.

LirW

I agree, I had it first hand of how differently babies behave with different feeding methods. The formula baby has longer between the feeds, that's a fact but I don't understand why people take that as the norm. Also formula babies have their bad days where they wanna feed more.
In some countries there's actually formula that you can feed on demand like breastmilk and that's the norm to give, you wouldn't really go to the next stage for a while.

meeeeh

I actually got brilliant tips from PHN when my second was born. I had some practice after the first one so I was not completely lost. Still at the beginning my breasts became like melons so she gave me great tips how to make sure baby didn't get just thirst quenching watery milk but also more substantial stuff. I think she was lactation consultant and it was amazing how much difference advice from someone who knows their stuff makes. After that I didn't need any support. Feeding the first one was a lot harder at the beginning.

jlm29

meeeeh wrote: »

I actually got brilliant tips from PHN when my second was born. I had some practice after the first one so I was not completely lost. Still at the beginning my breasts became like melons so she gave me great tips how to make sure baby didn't get just thirst quenching watery milk but also more substantial stuff. I think she was lactation consultant and it was amazing how much difference advice from someone who knows their stuff makes. After that I didn't need any support. Feeding the first one was a lot harder at the beginning.

I don't think PHNs get much (or any) specific training in breastfeeding as part of their PHN training, although some with an interest do courses after they're qualified as an extra. My PHN is amazing, and a fantastic resource when it comes to breastfeeding and child health, but some are disastrous.

LegacyUser

fits wrote: »

I just have to quote this bit. I'm just wondering if people seeing behaviour of a formula fed baby as the norm when it shouldn't be. Babies feed often. One of my ten month old twins still feeds at least every two hours in the daytime. I consider this normal. Babies impact your life end of story.

Hang on. a 20 minute feed Every 2 hours, round the clock, 24 hrs a day 7 days week for 3 months. I just wasnt able! I was shattered. fair play if ye can do better than me, clearly lots of you can.
and I'm aware babies impact your life, thanks. The impact has been far more positive both ways since we started formula.

Neyite

jlm29 wrote: »

I don't think PHNs get much (or any) specific training in breastfeeding as part of their PHN training, although some with an interest do courses after they're qualified as an extra. My PHN is amazing, and a fantastic resource when it comes to breastfeeding and child health, but some are disastrous.

I had some very supportive and enthusiastic midwives (equally supportive of the formula mums too I might add) but with many of them all their knowledge felt theoretical, despite the enthusiasm. There are just some things that are better taught through direct experience. The best advice and practical support I got was from women who had breastfed. Otherwise it's like getting swim lessons from someone who learned how to swim from a video but has never swam.

Breastfeeding is a skill that gets taught from woman to woman. An entire generation of breastfeeding mums almost got wiped out in the previous generation or two of mammies. We are building up our knowledge again, and it might take a generation or two.

What we should also remember about previous generations is that breast didn't always work out. There was high infant mortality due to 'failure to thrive' Women had a network of cousins/ sisters/ neighbours who were currently also lactating if for any reason you were unable to feed your child - temporary or otherwise they fed them for you. Our generation don't have that network either.

Formula is a great invention. It's saved many an infant. And still does. It really shouldn't be a war between BF and FF mammies. We all want to do the same thing - nourish our babies and ensure they thrive.

Crea

Breastmilk is leagues ahead of formula in relation to nutrition . There is no comparison.

Estrellita

I breastfed my other children for a couple of months then switched to bottle. I had little support at the hospital, plenty of leaflets though. I was quite young at the time, and never actively looked for support. I'd so many people at the time asking what I was bf'ing for, when bottles were so easy. I broke and began bottle feeding.

I'm currently six months into breastfeeding my little one, and while it's had its challenges I hate the idea of giving up. Currently there is a teething issue with the odd feed, LO pulls away. When I can't get a feed in by breast I pump a bottle. I'm hoping this phase will pass so I can go back to strictly breast. The pumping drives me potty but it's just not on the cards to combine feed with formula.

I only wish I had been more determined with the other children, but between the breastfeeding challenges and the breastfeeding shaming I'd had enough. With this LO Ive found my bf'ing mojo, and I'm determined to overcome any hurdles that come our way. It's such an enjoyable bonding moment for us.

Some babies that are breastfed need feeding more often, and you have to accept that that may happen. There is a reason for that. Human milk is designed for human babies, and is quickly digested as a result.

Clearly, I fly the flag for BF'ing, but I don't judge a bottle-feeding mother. As mothers we have it hard enough without passing judgement on others.

Neyite

Crea wrote: »

Breastmilk is leagues ahead of formula in relation to nutrition . There is no comparison.

And formula is a perfectly adequate source of nutrition for a child who for whatever reason, cannot access breast milk.

Bagheera

I have 3 children. My first ended up being formula fed after a week of failed attempts to latch on, pumping and tears. The only pressure I experienced was in the hospital to give formula when he wouldn't latch, and from the PHN who urged me to switch to formula when I was struggling. The only pressure to breastfeed or guilt associated with not doing it came from me. I only experienced one snide comment and that was from a non-irish mother.

Thankfully I had no issues with my second and I fed him for a year. I'm currently feeding my third at 10 months and I plan to keep going. I have received lots of 'helpful' comments from mainly family members - you're starving him, if you gave him a bottle you'd get a break, I can't bond with him because he's always latched on, there are no benefits to breastfeeding after 3 months, etc etc etc.

It may be coincidental, but my first child had 2 or 3 antibiotics by age 2. My second child who is almost 4 has never been on one. When my first was teething, myself or my partner would have to pace the floor with him whereas with my other two a boob generally did/does the trick. No getting out of bed. I absolutely hated making bottles, that whole waiting 30 minutes before you could safely make the bottle while not killing nutrients then having to cool it down - absolute pain in the ass. The whole bottle to give you a break thing - as the person on maternity leave the mum is doing most of the work anyway! So in that sense breastfeeding is so much easier. There are many other reasons why I would choose to breastfeed again and again.

catrionanic

unregforthisone wrote: »

Hang on. a 20 minute feed Every 2 hours, round the clock, 24 hrs a day 7 days week for 3 months. I just wasnt able! I was shattered. fair play if ye can do better than me, clearly lots of you can.
and I'm aware babies impact your life, thanks. The impact has been far more positive both ways since we started formula.

Obviously every baby is different, and some will feed way more often than others. But generally the first three months are the toughest and most full-on. Especially when breastfeeding - babies metabolise breastmilk faster as it is lighter than formula and hence they need to feed more often, and they are slower to feed than formula-fed babies because they have to work to draw the milk out, as opposed to it flowing freely into their mouths from a bottle.

Personally, I found that feeding got much simpler after the three month mark. He became much more efficient at feeding and so the feeds didn’t take as long and I had more free time between feeds. And he also started to get soooo much less windy - with better neck control, he could get his wind up by himself and didn’t need to be winded anymore. He was also emerging from the “fourth trimester”, and that newborn phase of wanting to be held and cuddled all the time came to pass around then too. I know that these experiences are pretty common.

I’m so glad that you feel you made the right decision for you and your baby. Three months is a big milestone for babies though. I wonder how many of these changes would have come to be around that age anyway, regardless of the method of feeding?

mirrorwall14

I couldn’t breastfeed due to medication I need to be on. I got zero information about bottle feeding from anyone in HSE. It was beyond ridiculous. All anyone suggested was did I look into alternative medicines so I could breastfeed (I had, I couldn’t and a healthy mammy was more important to me). I can’t count the number of people who suggested this because I ‘had’ to breastfeed.

I literally didn’t know whether I would need to bring my own bottles to the hospital, what type of formula would I need etc. I had to ask other mums because apparently the hospital is not allowed to discuss bottle feeding anymore. No one explains sterilising or anything like that.

While hospitalised at 8 months I had a seriously agreessive person (I still don’t know her role) come in convincing us all to breastfeed and insisting on leaving leaflets with me after it being explained to her ‘in case I change my mind because you can see from these it’s best for the baby’.

I did my own scientific research because I was completely freaking out about letting my baby down. Sibling studies show that many of the benefits do not stand up under scrutiny that removes socio economic status etc.

So yes he might have lost out a little but nowhere near the scaremongering that was given to me but in this case a healthy mom was way more important.

My sister had a pretty similar situation with the midwives and PHN apparently not being allowed to recommend a bottle under any circumstances unless it’s for baby’s medical needs. Moms does not come into it. She had lost a huge amount of blood during labour, had a heart condition in pregnancy which had left her very weak and dizzy still in the week after birth and had a long labour with no sleep. She could barely stand up but was afraid to stop breastfeeding or supplement even though it wasn’t working (baby wasn’t gaining-she got grief to breastfeed more even though she was almost permanently doing it) because ‘breast is best and i’ll be a failure’. She needed instruction on supplementing enough so that she could at least stand up as well as keep her baby’s weight up and support to ensure supply remained during that period. Instead after 5 days including her being rehospitalised she quit.
That’s one statistic that could have been remedied with remotely useful support as opposed to ‘do it more’ and a latch check which is what she got from PHN, her breastfeeding group and the hospital.


However I will say that I noticed the shift the other way myself even as a bottle feeder once you hit around six months people stop looking at you judgementally and ‘why are you not breast feeding’ becomes ‘isn’t bottle feeding great at this age’ and some serious judgemental comments about those that still breastfeed

The whole situation is crackers

shesty

It's nuts!Two other things occur to....my first was brought to the NICU at about 24 hours and the first thing they did ( after explaining to me why they were moving her) was come and ask me could they give her a bottle as she needed rehydration and it could be done by IV, but it could happen quicker if she was given IV and a bottle (I said absolutely and I had no problem with it).
Second...on discharge with my second I asked (to remind myself) roughly how often should be feeding. I was bf, and I was happy to do it on demand but she was sleepy so I wanted to just check.Answer was every 4 hours (from a lovely midwife).It only occurred to me later that if formula takes them longer to digest, and that's every three hours (or so) then how on earth could bf be every four hours???Maybe she meant the max time to leave between feeds or something, I don't know, but it seemed a bit mad!!

bee06

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The whole situation is crackers

I can't give my own personal experience yet because I'm still pregnant it seems to me based on all my reading including this thread that for a long time it was all about formula and breastfeeding was seen as not the right thing. Then the "breastfeeding movement" began and everything swung to the other extreme with formula being demonised to a certain extent. Things need to move back to a more moderate position with better support from medical professionals. It shouldn't be hit or miss that you get good advice because you happen to give birth during that persons shift.

For me, I plan to breastfeed but this thread and others have made me think that I need to push to get support if I need it but I also need to trust my own instincts if the advice I'm getting doesn't "fit".

mrsmags16

shesty wrote: »

Maybe she meant the max time to leave between feeds or something, I don't know, but it seemed a bit mad!!

Yeah when mine was newborn my PHN said set the alarm every night for four hours and to wake him to feed but he pretty much set his own alarm to 3-4 hours overnight anyway. (Now he is five months and I would NEVER wake him EVER EVER EVER )

mirrorwall14

bee06 wrote: »

I can't give my own personal experience yet because I'm still pregnant it seems to me based on all my reading including this thread that for a long time it was all about formula and breastfeeding was seen as not the right thing. Then the "breastfeeding movement" began and everything swung to the other extreme with formula being demonised to a certain extent. Things need to move back to a more moderate position with better support from medical professionals. It shouldn't be hit or miss that you get good advice because you happen to give birth during that persons shift.

For me, I plan to breastfeed but this thread and others have made me think that I need to push to get support if I need it but I also need to trust my own instincts if the advice I'm getting doesn't "fit".

That last paragraph, that’s the one to keep. Push for support. If it doesn’t happen, and things don’t work then don’t feel guilty. Nothing to feel guilty about if you have done everything possible.

If I ever manage to have another I do wonder about it this time as I’m more stable and could possibly come off the med but my milk never actually came in at all on my first, no engorgement, they didn’t change size in pregnancy or anything like that. But sure only time will tell!

mirrorwall14

Oh and one other anecdote to throw into my concern that we have swung the other way in craziness.

I was in Tallaght with my little boy at 3 days old. I was down in the little kitchen sterilising my bottles. There was a young mother from the traveller tradition in the room. We exchanged sympathetic chat about our newborns while we washed bottles. Neither of us were able to breastfeed, she had been told not to. Then I prepared to sterilise mine. She very shly asked what I was doing so I explained, a little stunned no one had checked with her. She proudly copied me stacked all her bottles and we put them into the microwaves beside each other and parted ways to check our kids. I passed on the corridor 10 minutes later at speed and when they finished in the microwave she had taken them out to wash them again.

I just thought to myself, all mothers need better help. Bottle or breast, neither is getting any actual teaching right now. The teacher in me was furious.

And it permeates right down to all aspects of giving birth and early motherhood.

For example we had a trainee midwife do the first bath. Not show us how to do it and supervise us, literally she did it and we had to watch. That’s ridiculous?! The lady across the way requested to be shown again and was told that only first time mothers get it. Wtf? Someone asked for instruction but isn’t allowed get it? As an aside she was incredibly annoying but what a ridiculous rule

scarepanda

I'm a breastfeeding mother, I love being able to do it. Its something that I have achieved that I am most proud of. But at times when reading through threads like this I almost feel ashamed of that pride. These types of threads really piss me off, because they always highlight just how bad the services are, how advice from different health professionals can vary so much and how uneducated people who have the most contact with new mothers seem to be regarding breast or formula feeding babies.

Everyone here has formed opinions around breast or formula feeding based on their own experiences. And people who have had an experience on the extreme of either positive or negative nearly always seem to look down on others who have chosen a different way of feeding their own baby.

Why the hell does it always need to be competition? Why does one side or the other have to look down upon the other side? Why do we have to bottle bash and have terms like breastfeeding evangelists? It does neither side any favours. I'm obviously pro breastfeeding, and on the few occasions iv seen/met breastfeeding mothers when out and about I can't help but have a little smile. But I certainly don't think any less of a mother who's bottle feeding her baby. No one knows the story behind that woman and her choices on how she feeds her baby.

annoyedgal

Great post scarepanda couldn't agree more. I was lucky enough to get a huge amount of support from midwives, sister in law and public health nurse so I could breastfeed for 14 months. Wasn't always plain sailing but it was a wonderful experience. I wasn't expecting it to be as all i had heard beforehand was negative stories about how difficult it is.
Yes it can be difficult for lots of people and thats where support comes in. This country is woefully lacking in this area and it's why lots of women are let down when they want to breastfeed.
Many don't want to from the off and absolutely more power to making your own decision and doing what's right for your family. Having a baby is hard enough without bottle bashing and breastfeeding negativity. Women need to stop be so bloody touchy and competitive about it. Feed your baby anyway you want but enough of the negative crap around bottle/breast. Have we not enough to be doing!

Neyite

I'm of the pro-feeding variety.

I'm very lucky that I was able to breastfeed. I was very lucky that my sister and SIL had breastfed quite a few children before me and were my skilled support.

But if for any reason breastfeeding didn't work out, I was not going to feel guilty for switching to formula as the next best thing. And I despise the bashing and sanctimony from both sides of the debate towards the other side. There's just no need for it.

Sesame

Good post. It never ends. People will judge if you fed your baby purees, skip purees, put baby in a car seat in a travel system, don't have 16 layers on them.
I'll always remember getting out of the house one day after massive effect with my first. A woman approached me on the street to say my child should have socks on. He had pulled them off.
Everyone will get their oar in. Smile and nod and ignore.

Beanybabog

We need to have good support systems in place that don't place undue pressure on women. I found breastfeeding very very hard at first and would have quit except that I had a great PHN and I hired an excellent lactation consultant and got baby's tongue tie cut at 8 days old. I know someone who powered through in pain for 4 months before they got a tongue tie diagnosed in the hospital! I fed for 7 months and it did get much easier but it's hard to believe that at the start when you're in agony and exhausted.

It annoys me seeing all breastfeeding posters in the hospital and then they send us home with tongue tied babies and never even mention it!! If they really want people to breastfeed they should send proper lactation consultants around to the mothers in the hospital and organise to cut tongue ties and/or fit nipple shields before they leave so the ones struggling have a chance to actually keep going.

That said, I think we are all lucky to have access to a good safe substitute in formula because at the end of the day, the most important thing is that the baby is properly fed and healthy.

scarepanda

Beanybabog wrote: »

fit nipple shields before they leave so the ones struggling have a chance to actually keep going.

You get lambasted for using nipple shields. I was told when my lo was 8 days old after struggling for those 8 days to keep going that my baby 'was not on the breast' because i was using shields.

A friend of mine recently ended up using them and when she went to a lactation consultant they told her to stop using them without any support as to what she should do after she stopped using them. She was given out to for even starting to use them. And when she asked about exclusive pumping she was told 'its not the done thing' and that was it. No further support. That lady went to combined feeding via pumping rather than on the breast breastfeeding and after a few days wasn't producing a whole lot. As far as a can gather she's not breastfeeding in any way now. I won't ask her anything about it till/if she brings it up with me. But I do know she wanted to breastfeed and I feel very sad for her that she hasn't been able to keep it up because the support wasn't there for her.

I'm 14 months in and using nipple shields, without them I'd have been done before I left the hospital because the pain was that bad. In don't remember the contraction pains, nor the section, but i sure as hell remember the nipple pain.

*I do know that there can be issues with nipple shields and they should be used under the supervision of a trained health professional.

Beanybabog

My lactation consultant put me on shields and they were the only thing that saved my breastfeeding! I was supposed to wean off them when the tongue tie was cut but my baby refused. I ended up using them for 9 ish weeks and they were fantastic. My baby took a bottle too- when she was weaned off the shields she refused! If I had to keep going shieldless I would have ended up on bottles the first week

Obvious Otter

Do whatever keeps your baby happy and healthy.

chooey

I had a anted to breast feed my little one but I had to have a general anaesthetic and a section in the end and I just didn't get a supply. I pumped for four weeks and was only getting 1oz after 40 mins. I felt and still feel guilty about not bf my daughter. I hated being the only one at a group pulling out the bottle instead of the boob. As I was in recovery for a good few hours they had already given my baby formula which she needed as she was starving and she was polishing off 4-7 oz from the beginning so not sure if I ever would have kept up with her demands.

spottybananas

chooey wrote: »

I had a anted to breast feed my little one but I had to have a general anaesthetic and a section in the end and I just didn't get a supply. I pumped for four weeks and was only getting 1oz after 40 mins. I felt and still feel guilty about not bf my daughter. I hated being the only one at a group pulling out the bottle instead of the boob. As I was in recovery for a good few hours they had already given my baby formula which she needed as she was starving and she was polishing off 4-7 oz from the beginning so not sure if I ever would have kept up with her demands.

Babies drink way more formula than colostrum in first days because it's not as dense and fatty as colostrum and because it flows freely from the bottle teat into their mouth, whereas there's work/control involved in suckling colostrum/breastmilk. I also had a csection (emergency but epidural, not GA), didn't get to hold or feed baby until 30 hours later in scbu by which point he had received formula and one tiny syringe of 0.5ml of colostrum. I had to pump for the first five days, never got even 1oz, even when he was 6-24 months I never got much at all if I pumped! I had to tell the lactation consultant that the hospital pump wasn't working correctly, nobody had even noticed it's suction was being misdirected, for days I was getting barely a drop because of the fecking thing, pure chance that I got thick with it and noticed the problem.

Don't feel guilty about it, you did what was best at the time with the advice you were given.