Men (Us too), all (at least most) guilty for sexual harassment

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According to Louise McSharry

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/metoo-i-was-six-the-first-time-a-man-made-me-feel-uncomfortable-1.3260390

'If they’re really honest though, most of them know they are complicit in some way or another.'

Is there a problem, of course there is. Does it affect women more than men for sure, but I've my own experiences of being groped by women - does it affect me less than a woman, probably. But, I don't like the tone of this article.

khaldrogo

If these feminazis had their way we'd all be eunuchs walking around the place apologizing for being born male.......

I am 100% in favour of women being equal in all aspects. I have 2 daughters and want them to be treated right but I do not agree with the feminists who spout hateful rhetoric about the 'evil' of men.

lifeandtimes

khaldrogo wrote: »

If these feminazis had their way we'd all be eunuchs walking around the place apologizing for being born male.......

I am 100% in favour of women being equal in all aspects. I have 2 daughters and want them to be treated right but I do not agree with the feminists who spout hateful rhetoric about the 'evil' of men.

After speaking with many feminist they are pretty much ok, they say it's a small group of woman who are over the top and give them a bad name. Them being over the top is good for news networks etc but not for them

Which to be fair you get everywhere.

backspin.

"If they’re really honest though, most of them know they are complicit in some way or another".

I'll be really honest Louise if you are reading this. No i am not complicit and completely reject the notion i am responsible for what other men do. Their mothers (and fathers) more complicit than I am. How did they raise some men to be brutes??

And i'm tired of being scolded by feminists too.

Assetbacked

A big issue which it comes down to is how attractive and/or famous the person making sexual advances is. Not hearing enough about this.

Effects

Assetbacked wrote: »

A big issue which it comes down to is how attractive and/or famous the person making sexual advances is. Not hearing enough about this.

Can you explain a bit further? Are you saying it's ok if the person making advances is attractive?

o1s1n

Effects wrote: »

Can you explain a bit further? Are you saying it's ok if the person making advances is attractive?

I've heard this argument before and it's far too vague.

It would depend entirely on the act.

An attractive guy winking at someone? Might go down better than an unattractive guy doing the same.

An attractive guy grabbing you inappropriately? I doubt most would be happy with this.

frozenfrozen

I’m tired of bending over backwards to be sensitive to the portion of the male population who consider themselves “good guys” but so resent being in any way connected to tales of sexual harassment and sexual assault that they want us to shut up about it.

bend over backwards there a bit more and we'll get a good look at you (/s for anyone slow)


As if all the times a woman has groped me and then roared "ARE YOU ****ING GAY OR SOMETHING??????" when I wasn't happy about it doesn't count as women doing the same thing or the many other examples some of which I have never shared with anyone

has she ever seen a hen party?

KrustyUCC

Sharing our experiences isn’t enough. It should be. It should be horrifying for any man to learn about what women are forced to accept as normal behaviour. Unfortunately, it’s not. Some men just can’t believe it. They literally can not believe it, so they don’t. They argue with us, they ignore us, and in the worst cases, they silence us. So, we’re in a stalemate. We’ve stood screaming at the top of the mountain that this is a problem, and there’s nothing else we can do. Now it’s men’s turn to do something about this problem. As fathers, as brothers, as sons, or maybe even just as decent human beings.
Start a conversation with your male friends, guys. Ask them if they’ve heard us. Tell them you believe us. Tell them you’re making it a priority in your life to shut down any behaviour which might make women feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Then actually do that. Call it out when you see it. Listen to us. Believe us. It’s the only way this stuff is actually going to end. The bad guys won’t listen to us, but maybe they’ll listen to you.

Why is it any mans problem who haven't done any of the beahviour that she is complaining about?

That's group guilt

I have had women grab my ass and other areas grabbed on nights out

Can you imagine Louise stating "Now it’s women’s turn to do something about this problem. As mothers, as sisters, as daughters, or maybe even just as decent human beings.

Triceratops Ballet

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Can you imagine Louise stating "Now it’s women’s turn to do something about this problem. As mothers, as sisters, as daughters, or maybe even just as decent human beings.

you don't think women would see that behaviour in other women as problematic?

KrustyUCC

I'm sure a lot do as a lot of men see that behaviour in other men as problematic

i wonder does it follow on that ''If they’re really honest though, most of them know they are complicit in some way or another.' or that 'its's a woman's problem

I fail to see how good guys shouldn't resent being in any way connected to tales of sexual harassment and sexual assault. Blaming innocent men for others behaviour

It would be the same as all women being blamed for that tiny proportion of women's behaviour

Triceratops Ballet

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I'm sure a lot do as a lot of men see that behaviour in other men as problematic

i wonder does it follow on that ''If they’re really honest though, most of them know they are complicit in some way or another.' or that 'its's a woman's problem

I fail to see how good guys shouldn't resent being in any way connected to tales of sexual harassment and sexual assault. Blaming innocent men for others behaviour

It would be the same as all women being blamed for that tiny proportion of women's behaviour

I imagine it's the idea that if you see a friend do something that is morally questionable (it can be anything, making fun of a disabled person, being racist, groping a stranger) and you laugh along or just ignore it ("oh that's just Paddy/Mary, s/he gets handsy/bigoted/an a**hole when s/he's drunk") then in theory you are in some way complicit, your laughter or lack of objection is taken as approval and gives permission for it to happen again.

If "Paddy/ Mary" doesn't know that his/her behaviour is d1ckish then s/he has no reason to change. Paddy/Mary is the most guilty in this analogy but noone is totally innocent.

I don't like the idea that I'm complicit in this kind of thing, but if I think about it and I'm honest with myself I probably am

KrustyUCC

Yeah that's fair enough

Even if you call out Paddy/Mary on their behaviour it will still not take back that behaviour or the hurt i caused the person on the receiving end of it

I also think it the majority of cases "Paddy/ Mary" know that his/her behaviour is d1ckish

I don't believe in guilt by association however and that's it's all men/womens problem that individuals of their gender misbehave

Triceratops Ballet

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Yeah that's fair enough

Even if you call out Paddy/Mary on their behaviour it will still not take back that behaviour or the hurt i caused the person on the receiving end of it

I also think it the majority of cases "Paddy/ Mary" know that his/her behaviour is d1ckish

I don't believe in guilt by association however and that's it's all men/womens problem that individuals of their gender misbehave

Calling them out about it doesn't take back the hurt they caused to one individual, but it might make them think twice about doing it again. I don't think the inability to turn back time should stop people from trying to be better in future

I don't feel guilty about it either and I don't believe anyone should feel guilt if they're not the perpetrator, but it being highlighted does make me want to be better, and to think about saying something the next time I see something, people who carry out this kind of thing rely on nobody saying anything or calling them out.

Icemancometh

Effects wrote: »

Can you explain a bit further? Are you saying it's ok if the person making advances is attractive?

I found it interesting how many of the articles about Weinstein referenced his appearance. The implication being if he was more attractive it wouldn't be as bad.

Triceratops Ballet

Icemancometh wrote: »

I found it interesting how many of the articles about Weinstein referenced his appearance. The implication being if he was more attractive it wouldn't be as bad.

But that's the journalist's inference, not the victims

Icemancometh

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

But that's the journalist's inference, not the victims

Oh absolutely, it wouldn't diminish the abuse at all. Just found it interesting how often his appearance was mentioned

super_furry

Feminazis used in the first reply. This will definitely be a worthwhile discussion.

tomwaterford

That wan is fcuking nuts or else hangs out with pure scummers


I know noone who thinks this behaviour she wrote about is ok....

Deos she even have any male friends like?

Sky King

Tell them you’re making it a priority in your life to shut down any behaviour which might make women feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Then actually do that.

Eh no thanks. Call the cops if you feel unsafe. FFS.

server down

With regards to Islamic violence I feel they if Muslims were really honest though they would agree that they are all complicit in one way or another.

server down

super_furry wrote: »

Feminazis used in the first reply. This will definitely be a worthwhile discussion.

The article wasn’t great either though.

Assetbacked

o1s1n wrote: »

I've hard this argument before and it's far too vague.

It would depend entirely on the act.

An attractive guy winking at someone? Might go down better than an unattractive guy doing the same.

An attractive guy grabbing you inappropriately? I doubt most would be happy with this.

Exactly.

Let's be honest - there are guys in Hollywood taking advantage of their profile and status because there are also girls who let them; such girls being far from victims and would even acknowledge that themselves. It's not simply that such a casting couch culture develops due to men alone. Ignoring this would prevent any attempted solution from working. Acknowledging that women enabled such a culture needs to be accepted before any solution can be implemented.

And I am not referring to sexual harassment but rather the casting couch, sex as currency culture.

lazybones32

Typical drivel- 'men are the problem and other men need to fix it by standing up for women'.

Maybe she is being deliberately divisive by calling all men bad and saying all women must band together but such 'Us V Them' crap will do nothing but polarise. If she had any point worth making, she has sunk it by her own hand.

Two points:

1) i am very suspicious about her tale as a 6 year old. That gesture only entered pop culture after the 90's - mostly since the advent of the internet which became widely available in the noughties - and seeing the restrictions on pornography in 80's Ireland, i can't see it being part of the culture. How did her mother know what the "disgusting" gesture meant unless she herself was a frequent pornography viewer? We all know it now but back then? No way! Still, it's only a case of her word against mine....

2) The headline speaks about someone making her feel uncomfortable. That is fine for a 6 year old but an adult should know you can't "make" someone else feel something. To quote eleanor roosevelt "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent". The word 'inferior" can be replaced with other words and the sentence is still valid - happy, sad, peaceful, angry etc; part of being a mature human is understanding your own mind, which apparently the author does not, seeing as she is still blaming bad men for everything.

I would have been happier to not have read that piece but this is the reality of feminism and this is its effect on weak-minded women.

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

Exactly.

Let's be honest - there are guys in Hollywood taking advantage of their profile and status because there are also girls who let them; such girls being far from victims and would even acknowledge that themselves. It's not simply that such a casting couch culture develops due to men alone. Ignoring this would prevent any attempted solution from working. Acknowledging that women enabled such a culture needs to be accepted before any solution can be implemented.

And I am not referring to sexual harassment but rather the casting couch, sex as currency culture.

You can get the same thing in sports, Or pretty much any popular industry. Women gravitate towards men. Gosh! what a shocking revelation. Men enjoying the attention of women? Terrible behavior.

Look. Women are generally not stupid. They know what they're getting themselves into and any woman who doesn't is likely looking for an excuse for her bad choices. We all make mistakes, but feminism seeks to create a culture which allows women to make unlimited 'mistakes' (intentional or unintentional mistakes) but allows them to retain their pure innocence.

Most girls (and I mean girls) know (from practical experience or education) what sex is by early teens. Modern society doesn't give a lot of space to ignore it unless you're living in the Arctic. They also know what they can get from sex. Movies, music, etc all encourage women/girls to use their physical appearance to influence men. And Honestly, most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age. All it takes is a sister for any man to see the effects of that. Our society actively encourages women to see themselves as special, and that, well, sex sells.

So, I don't buy into this whole pure innocence thing. I've seen women in work who flirted and used sexual comments to improve relationships with bosses or customers. I know some who went further than just words, and their careers improved (although their reputations dropped). (I've also seen men do the same)

But the days where women can claim to not be aware of all this are long gone. Whether that's due to men making sexual advances/comments, the woman starting them herself, or simply being exposed to the internet/movies/music.

It's getting annoying this perception that men must take responsibility for own actions and also for women's actions around us... and women don't have to take any responsibility, for anything. Nothing is their own fault.:rolleyes:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dotsie~tmp

This is what happens when you hang with male feminists. ****ing skin crawlers lol. Any decent fella just walks after the feminist bollox comes out.

RabbleRouser2k

I think the 'handsome creep' theory is pretty much the plot of indecent proposal-that Demi Moore/ Robert Redford movie...that was creepy when I saw it, and is still creepy now. But for some reason had women getting the vapours over. (At the time, not now). If you're wondering what I mean-it was a huge hit upon its original release.

So when you hear 'if Michael Fassbender did it...' or 'Colin Farrell' etc etc ... it sort of rings true-to a degree. Like, no, they could not get away with Weinstein's rapes, most definitely no-but if they handed a woman their phone number on the back of a cigarette packet whilst with wife/ girlfriend in tow, or said 'a million bucks to do your wife'...there would be less complaints.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

You can get the same thing in sports, Or pretty much any popular industry. Women gravitate towards men. Gosh! what a shocking revelation. Men enjoying the attention of women? Terrible behavior.

Look. Women are generally not stupid. They know what they're getting themselves into and any woman who doesn't is likely looking for an excuse for her bad choices. We all make mistakes, but feminism seeks to create a culture which allows women to make unlimited 'mistakes' (intentional or unintentional mistakes) but allows them to retain their pure innocence.

Most girls (and I mean girls) know (from practical experience or education) what sex is by early teens. Modern society doesn't give a lot of space to ignore it unless you're living in the Arctic. They also know what they can get from sex. Movies, music, etc all encourage women/girls to use their physical appearance to influence men. And Honestly, most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age. All it takes is a sister for any man to see the effects of that. Our society actively encourages women to see themselves as special, and that, well, sex sells.

So, I don't buy into this whole pure innocence thing. I've seen women in work who flirted and used sexual comments to improve relationships with bosses or customers. I know some who went further than just words, and their careers improved (although their reputations dropped). (I've also seen men do the same)

But the days where women can claim to not be aware of all this are long gone. Whether that's due to men making sexual advances/comments, the woman starting them herself, or simply being exposed to the internet/movies/music.

It's getting annoying this perception that men must take responsibility for own actions and also for women's actions around us... and women don't have to take any responsibility, for anything. Nothing is their own fault.:rolleyes:

So your 'theory' is that female children use sexual manipulation on adults? And you think that other men can see this in action by observing their own sisters?

Dotsie~tmp

B0jangles wrote: »

So your 'theory' is that female children use sexual manipulation on adults? And you think that other men can see this in action by observing their own sisters?

Clearly not what he said. Its not sexual. Its behavioural. I can see how my niece already knows how to manipulate me. She puts on the girly act. I tell her i know shes acting then she drops it and laughs her arse off. Girls dont have the physical strength men have to get what they want so they use persuasion more. Its natural. It manifests later in relationships.

Tayschren

All woman are manipulative, some are just crap at it. The problem is they want to win all the time and when they don't get their own way its down to man being horrible sexist pigs.

Triceratops Ballet

Dotsie~tmp wrote:

Clearly not what he said. Its not sexual. Its behavioural. I can see how my niece already knows how to manipulate me. She puts on the girly act. I tell her i know shes acting then she drops it and laughs her arse off. Girls dont have the physical strength men have to get what they want so they use persuasion more. Its natural. It manifests later in relationships.

Right so by that theory then it's natural for women to tend more towards, persuasion rather than using strength to get what they want. Yet woman acting in this natural way is wrong, and they deserve whatever they get, and they're also wrong for stopping men acting in their natural way? (I appreciate that might not be the point you specifically are making but it baffles me as to why this has even been brought up)

Triceratops Ballet

Tayschren wrote:

All woman are manipulative, some are just crap at it. The problem is they want to win all the time and when they don't get their own way its down to man being horrible sexist pigs.

Yes, all women, all the time!

Are you serious, do you know any women?

silverharp

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Clearly not what he said. Its not sexual. Its behavioural. I can see how my niece already knows how to manipulate me. She puts on the girly act. I tell her i know shes acting then she drops it and laughs her arse off. Girls dont have the physical strength men have to get what they want so they use persuasion more. Its natural. It manifests later in relationships.

your point is a bit confused, if I use my son for a proxy "nephew" if he wants something he goes down the lawyer route or street trader route. Physical strength has nothing to do with it.

Dotsie~tmp

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Right so by that theory then it's natural for women to tend more towards, persuasion rather than using strength to get what they want. Yet woman acting in this natural way is wrong, and they deserve whatever they get, and they're also wrong for stopping men acting in their natural way? (I appreciate that might not be the point you specifically are making but it baffles me as to why this has even been brought up)

Yes it natural and no its not wrong. I dont believe the Weinsteins of this world is mans natural way. She isnt looking to stop anything. You cant anyway. Shes giving decent men **** for the sins of arseholes. So **** her. If she doesnt know how to treat decent people decently and not blame some group guilt on the then she can get some cats. I wont be apologising or listening to her piss and moan.

Triceratops Ballet

You don't see how ignoring an issue, can cause it to become more pervasive?
Granted the delivery of her message may be wrong, but if there is a societal issue shouldn't we acknowledge it?

Ignore people being treated badly it's not your problem because you're not doing it?

It's uncomfortable to have it pointed out that even though you don't actively contribute to the marginalisation of others, by not acknowledging it you're passively contributing. Post WWII for decades there was a huge issue around the idea of German national pride, not every German was murdering Jews but they saw it happen and did nothing, the average Hans was not, not guilty.
I think when things like this are pointed out, people should take a pause at empathy, rather than taking a sharp right into outrage.

I'm not suggesting people start apologising, or wracking themselves with guilt. I'm just saying consider the possibilities, and let that inform your behavior.

givyjoe

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

You don't see how ignoring an issue, can cause it to become more pervasive?
Granted the delivery of her message may be wrong, but if there is a societal issue shouldn't we acknowledge it?

Ignore people being treated badly it's not your problem because you're not doing it?

Absolute nonsense. It some man or men I dont know and have never met before, commit some form of harrassment, it is literally nothing to do with me. There is no responsibility on me to speak out or condemn or take action nor should there be. There are are laws there to deal with them.

If someone want's to highlight an issue and call people to act, that article is pretty horrible way of doing it.

Triceratops Ballet

givyjoe wrote:

Absolute nonsense. It some man or men I dont know and have never met before, commit some form of harrassment, it is literally nothing to do with me. There is no responsibility on me to speak out or condemn or take action nor should there be. There are are laws there to deal with them.

It's not happening to people off in some far away place with strangers, it happens in the culture you live in. Go and ask 5 women you know to tell you about a few times they were sexually harrassed, or groped inappropriately. I'd eat my hat if you don't get at least 5 stories.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

So your 'theory' is that female children use sexual manipulation on adults? And you think that other men can see this in action by observing their own sisters?

My 'theory' is that the vast majority of teenage girls are far more manipulative of their parents than boys of the same age and that due to social factors, they are also far more aware of their own sexuality than boys would be.

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Clearly not what he said. Its not sexual. Its behavioural. I can see how my niece already knows how to manipulate me. She puts on the girly act. I tell her i know shes acting then she drops it and laughs her arse off. Girls dont have the physical strength men have to get what they want so they use persuasion more. Its natural. It manifests later in relationships.

Spot on. Although I think it's more about being subtle. Society encourages males to be direct and to the point. It's not just about being physical, but also very direct in our relationships both with other males and also with females. Whereas girls are far more subtle about their behavior, often encouraging friendships with people they don't like, while a boy is more likely to avoid the person completely.

silverharp

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

You don't see how ignoring an issue, can cause it to become more pervasive?
Granted the delivery of her message may be wrong, but if there is a societal issue shouldn't we acknowledge it?

Ignore people being treated badly it's not your problem because you're not doing it?

It's uncomfortable to have it pointed out that even though you don't actively contribute to the marginalisation of others, by not acknowledging it you're passively contributing. Post WWII for decades there was a huge issue around the idea of German national pride, not every German was murdering Jews but they saw it happen and did nothing, the average Hans was not, not guilty.
I think when things like this are pointed out, people should take a pause at empathy, rather than taking a sharp right into outrage.

I'm not suggesting people start apologising, or wracking themselves with guilt. I'm just saying consider the possibilities, and let that inform your behavior.

Your analogy is awful. Everyone knows what the general standard of behaviour is, if some choose to break the standard its on them.

givyjoe

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

It's not happening to people off in some far away place with strangers, it happens in the culture you live in. Go and ask 5 women you know to tell you about a few times they were sexually harrassed, or groped inappropriately. I'd eat my hat if you don't get at least 5 stories.

And?? Wtf do you want me to do about it?! Go track down the names of the guys and give them a stern talking to?

I've had the same happen to me many times, should I expect other women (who had nothing to do with the incidents) to do something about it?

silverharp

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

It's not happening to people off in some far away place with strangers, it happens in the culture you live in. Go and ask 5 women you know to tell you about a few times they were sexually harrassed, or groped inappropriately. I'd eat my hat if you don't get at least 5 stories.

did they tell you about the thousands of men they met over their lifetime that didn't grope them?

Triceratops Ballet

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

It's not happening to people off in some far away place with strangers, it happens in the culture you live in. Go and ask 5 women you know to tell you about a few times they were sexually harrassed, or groped inappropriately. I'd eat my hat if you don't get at least 5 stories.

And all of them will likely have a different definition of what sexual harassment entails. I'm not suggesting that they haven't been harassed at some point... but... Our perception of what sexual harassment is likely different.

And that's the problem. Our society has encouraged so many different ideas of what sexual harassment can be... and frankly, anything can be included in it now. Tell a naughty joke, wink at a girl, even glancing (not staring) at a body part can all be considered sexual harassment by some.

Triceratops Ballet

givyjoe wrote:

And?? Wtf do you want me to do about it?! Go track down the names of the guys and give them a stern talking to?

No, that would be stupid, you're not here to be a hero, and stop people taking care of themselves. As I said previously, just try empathy, and not jumping online to give out about all women being manipulative, and on a mission to castrate all men. All you have to do is acknowledge there is a problem.

givyjoe wrote:

I've had the same happen to me many times, should I expect other women (who had nothing to do with the incidents) to do something about it?

I'd expect any decent person to call someone out on that kind of behavior tbh, male or female. If I was in a group of friends and one of them dropped a hand on someone else inappropriately, I'd like to think I'd say it to them.

Triceratops Ballet

Deleted User wrote:

And all of them will likely have a different definition of what sexual harassment entails. I'm not suggesting that they haven't been harassed at some point... but... Our perception of what sexual harassment is likely different.

Deleted User wrote:

And that's the problem. Our society has encouraged so many different ideas of what sexual harassment can be... and frankly, anything can be included in it now. Tell a naughty joke, wink at a girl, even glancing (not staring) at a body part can all be considered sexual harassment by some.

Well if you listen to their stories, then you'll know their definition

tritium

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Right so by that theory then it's natural for women to tend more towards, persuasion rather than using strength to get what they want. Yet woman acting in this natural way is wrong, and they deserve whatever they get, and they're also wrong for stopping men acting in their natural way? (I appreciate that might not be the point you specifically are making but it baffles me as to why this has even been brought up)

Lets just play the logic of that back so through a slightly different lens.

Women behave in a natural way
Thats ok and we shouldnt criticise (that would be wrong)

Men behave in a natural way
Its ok (not wrong) for women to stop them doing that.

Bit of a double standard there no?

To my mind theres a simple problem. (I) natural behaviour usually isnt bad (ii) extremes of anything tend to be bad. The Weinsteins of this world for example are an extreme. They dont get many defenders (though plenty of powerful men and women protected him). To equate that with an all male complicty is nonsense though.

McSharrys article is also bad. Because its an extreme form of manipulation. Its not bad that she tries to persuade (natural behaviour?) But she takes the route of emotional manipulation (as a rule manipulation tends not to be a good thing) which is bad, and tries to pigeonhole a whole group to do so.

It also goes to a deeper piece of social engineering though- the idea that theres something wrong with biys and men that needs to be 'fixed'. Terms like toxic masculinity or group shame and blame are immensely damaging to young boys perceptions of themselves.

Heres the thing 'locker room talk' isnt toxic masculinity, because what the likes of Trump uses isnt actually "locker room talk". Ive been in enough locker rooms to know the positives it instills in men-teamwork, trust, camraderie. Maybe women get that through different channels, but its wrong for any group to shame it based on a convenient misrepresentation of what it is.

givyjoe

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

No, that would be stupid, you're not here to be a hero, and stop people taking care of themselves. As I said previously, just try empathy, and not jumping online to give out about all women being manipulative, and on a mission to castrate all men. All you have to do is acknowledge there is a problem.



I'd expect any decent person to call someone out on that kind of behavior tbh, male or female. If I was in a group of friends and one of them dropped a hand on someone else inappropriately, I'd like to think I'd say it to them.

Wow, are you kidding me? Please, please quote my posts where I state women are being manipulative? Or even try to find a post which remotely implies that. Acknowledge what problem.. that all men are somehow complicit for the actions of a small minority..? Get a grip.

Take a run and jump with your insinuation that I'm somehow not a decent person for NOT being outraged at men, whom I do not know, who commit such acts.

Triceratops Ballet

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Well if you listen to their stories, then you'll know their definition

You're missing my point. Any behavior by a man can be included under the 'umbrella' term of sexual harassment. You suggested asking 5 women if they had ever been sexually harassed, and that you would get the affirmative from them... When sexual harassment is so open for personal interpretation.

Triceratops Ballet

tritium wrote:

Lets just play the logic of that back so through a slightly different lens.

tritium wrote:

Women behave in a natural way Thats ok and we shouldnt criticise (that would be wrong)

tritium wrote:

Men behave in a natural way Its ok (not wrong) for women to stop them doing that.

tritium wrote:

Bit of a double standard there no?

This is the thing, I'm trying to understand, how we went fron this article is terrible, to all women are manipulative and are complicit in their own downfall.

It wasn't worded well but I don't understand how we got from there to here.

I'm not saying manipulation is natural in women and it's ok, I'm trying to make sense of the logic that took the leap from McSharry is a dope to female children are manipulative, and this somehow means that women have been the architects of this scenario where they get assaulted,because they play the game. There were 3/4 posts along that line that had me thinking wtf, how did we get here.

blue note

I can agree to a point that society enables these actions. Through inaction, lewd jokes, judgemental attitudes.

But why pick out men as the only section that does this? We've all hard girls discuss a girls clothes and describe them as slutty or stress that they wouldn't wear that because they'd look like a tramp. This type of chat does bring down the level of what's acceptable to say about someone and that does have a knock on effect, sine people will then feel it's okay to say some of these things to a person and maybe even give their arse a pinch or something. "If she's wearing that, then maybe she's the type of girl who'd be flattered by it" sort of attitude.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to apportion blame to these people who aren't doing any of the sexual harassing, but maybe part of the solution does have to come from nipping some of it in the bud. But, why on earth are women exempt from this? If we're serious about changing behaviour, why are we only looking at half the people? And it's a fact that's not lost on that half, you can see here how defensive people are because they feel they're being singled out. If it was acknowledged as a problem across society, people might be more willing to consider it.

Eh.

It is the opinion of a few. Only that few is given a louder platform, generally in failing news media, because they know it'll generate clicks on their site and people talking about it.