Men (Us too), all (at least most) guilty for sexual harassment

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

My 'theory' is that the vast majority of teenage girls are far more manipulative of their parents than boys of the same age and that due to social factors, they are also far more aware of their own sexuality than boys would be.

Your original post was quite clear:

Most girls (and I mean girls) know (from practical experience or education) what sex is by early teens. Modern society doesn't give a lot of space to ignore it unless you're living in the Arctic. They also know what they can get from sex. Movies, music, etc all encourage women/girls to use their physical appearance to influence men. And Honestly, most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age. All it takes is a sister for any man to see the effects of that. Our society actively encourages women to see themselves as special, and that, well, sex sells.

You made an undeniable link between young girls, sex and manipulation. You think they use their sexual characteristics to manipulate men.
That says a lot more about you than it does about the average young girl.

(Am I really the only one here bothered by this?)

server down

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Yes, all women, all the time!

Are you serious, do you know any women?

It’s not all women, just a minority, but all women are responsible for not intervening. The entire sex is responsible for the actions of some of the sex.

Triceratops Ballet

server down wrote:

It’s not all women, just a minority, but all women are responsible for not intervening. The entire sex is responsible for the actions of some of the sex.

Yeah if you see something bad happen and let it slide, and say or do nothing. You are complicit. That's true no matter what your gender or race, whether you're able bodied or not

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

You made an undeniable link between young girls, sex and manipulation. You think they use their sexual characteristics to manipulate men.
That says a lot more about you than it does about the average young girl.

(Am I really the only one here bothered by this?)

You're the only one seeking to make more of it than was intended...

And leave off with the insults.

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

And all of them will likely have a different definition of what sexual harassment entails. I'm not suggesting that they haven't been harassed at some point... but... Our perception of what sexual harassment is likely different.

Which is one of the problems with that inane Facebook/Twitter "Me too" thing.

You have two platforms choc full of attention seeking drama Ilamas, we all know there will be a lot of people jumping on that bandwagon regardless of whether they had been assaulted or not. Got to get those sweet likes and retweets after all, the definition of sexual harassment will be stretched to meaninglessness by the time they are done.

The problem is that everybody else knows this and so it just dilutes the message.

Triceratops Ballet

givyjoe wrote:

Wow, are you kidding me? Please, please quote my posts where I state women are being manipulative?

This is a group discussion, I am not always speaking directly to you.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

You're the only one seeking to make more of it than was intended...

And leave off with the insults.

I did not insult you, so please don't start pretending I did.

You made it abundantly clear in your original post that you think girls use sexual manipulation from a very young age to manipulate men. I think you are now backing away from your original post because you aren't getting the agreement you expected.

bucketybuck

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

This is the thing, I'm trying to understand, how we went fron this article is terrible, to all women are manipulative and are complicit in their own downfall.

The whole thing started from the view that men are all complicit, is it really so strange that the reverse got suggested as well?

server down

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Yeah if you see something bad happen and let it slide, and say or do nothing. You are complicit. That's true no matter what your gender or race, whether you're able bodied or not

You’ve gone very specific. The person seeing something bad could be indeed of any gender or race.

I said all women are responsible for some bad actions by women, specifically for being women.

Avatar MIA

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Yeah if you see something bad happen and let it slide, and say or do nothing. You are complicit. That's true no matter what your gender or race, whether you're able bodied or not

Definition of Complicit choosing to be involved in an illegal or questionable act, especially with others; having complicity.

When you are making such a serious statement you need to choose your words wisely. You clearly don't understand what the term complicit means.

Triceratops Ballet

Avatar MIA wrote:

Definition of Complicit choosing to be involved in an illegal or questionable act, especially with others; having complicity.

Avatar MIA wrote:

When you are making such a serious statement you need to choose your words wisely. You clearly don't understand what the term complicit means.

Thanks for the English lesson! The ill treatment of others is a morally questionable act. When one ignores someones morally questionable behavior, they do so by choice

sbsquarepants

One mans sexual harassment, is another mans hitting on chicks.

There is a certain cohort of women out there who think that men should be able to read their minds. Like that clown who got all triggered because a man dared ask her did she want to come back to his room for a nightcap (can't remember her name at the moment)

I personally had 2 simple rules I followed during my fevered pursuit of poonany:D

1 Keep your hands to yourself. Nobody like a mauler!
2 Take no for an answer.

Once you follow those, you aren't harassing anybody. How are you to know if someone is interested or not until you chance your arm? Everybody gets knocked back from time to time, take it on the chin and move on. Once you do that, there's no harm done in my book. What other people do is not in my control - I take no responsibility for other people being assholes.

Triceratops Ballet

server down wrote:

You’ve gone very specific. The person seeing something bad could be indeed of any gender or race.

server down wrote:

I said all women are responsible for some bad actions by women, specifically for being women.

Actually I made it really general. We're all responsible for how society is.

I would expect women to call other women out on shady behavior, because turning a blind eye is just going along with it, going along with it is adding to the problem.

Dotsie~tmp

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Right so by that theory then it's natural for women to tend more towards, persuasion rather than using strength to get what they want. Yet woman acting in this natural way is wrong, and they deserve whatever they get, and they're also wrong for stopping men acting in their natural way? (I appreciate that might not be the point you specifically are making but it baffles me as to why this has even been brought up)

Yes it natural and no its not wrong. I dont believe the Weinsteins of this world is mans natural way. She isnt looking to stop anything. You cant anyway. Shes giving decent men **** for the sins of arseholes. So **** her. If she doesnt know how to treat decent people decently and not blame some group guilt on the then she can get some cats. I wont be apologising or listening to her piss and moan.

givyjoe

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

This is a group discussion, I am not always speaking directly to you.

You are when you quote me and you were clearly speaking directly to me in the first half of your post, reasonable to assume you were in the remainder.

If you're not speaking directly to me when specifically quoting my posts, make it clear. Shouldn't be too hard.

Dotsie~tmp

Stupid doublepost

Triceratops Ballet

givyjoe wrote: »

You are when you quote me and you were clearly speaking directly to me in the first half of your post, reasonable to assume you were in the remainder.

If you're not speaking directly to me when specifically quoting my posts, make it clear. Shouldn't be too hard.

Fair enough, apologies

PeterParker957

If a female opinion may be offered ?

I am getting so sick and tired of seeing my male friends treated as some kind of rapist when they chat a girl up. It's getting ridiculous.

Yet not long back I saw a drunk young woman walk up to a man in a gay bar, and grope his a**e with both hands going "I'll turn ya you know".

Yet, my friend giving the eye to a girl and asking to buy her a drink is "unwanted sexual harrassment" and the example above is "female empowerment".

Lads, I apologise for the rest of my gender. You deserve better than to be lumped in with the tiny percentage of bad guys.

sbsquarepants

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Lads, I apologise for the rest of my gender. You deserve better than to be lumped in with the tiny percentage of bad guys.

If you were really sorry, you'd make it up to us........but how, oh I know!;)

Actually- joking aside, I've found a lot of women to be very grabby (think hen do's and things like that) If I'd ever treated a strange woman the way some strange women have treated me I'd probably be on a register now! But where as it can be annoying, I don't really think it's the same thing. Generally speaking the man knows he's in no actual danger.

PeterParker957

sbsquarepants wrote: »

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Lads, I apologise for the rest of my gender. You deserve better than to be lumped in with the tiny percentage of bad guys.

If you were really sorry, you'd make it up to us........but how, oh I know!;)

Actually- joking aside, I've found a lot of women to be very grabby (think hen do's and things like that) If I'd ever treated a strange woman the way some strange women have treated me I'd probably be on a register now! But where as it can be annoying, I don't really think it's the same thing. Generally speaking the man knows he's in no actual danger.

Good point there definitely.

frozenfrozen

sbsquarepants wrote: »

If you were really sorry, you'd make it up to us........but how, oh I know!;)

Actually- joking aside, I've found a lot of women to be very grabby (think hen do's and things like that) If I'd ever treated a strange woman the way some strange women have treated me I'd probably be on a register now! But where as it can be annoying, I don't really think it's the same thing. Generally speaking the man knows he's in no actual danger.

No physical danger or no danger of any bad outcome from a woman sexually harassing him?

Plenty of physical danger, I'd rather be attacked by a random man than a random woman considering I could at least attempt to defend myself from a man but would be better off letting a woman glass me

not to mention the leverage a woman has by simply saying she will tell people you touched her

Saruhashi

I knew an English guy a long time ago who basically hated the Germans and the Japanese because of "the things they did during the war". This is a grown adult male in the early 2000s who hates people from 2 particular countries because other people in those countries did bad stuff at some time.

I thought he was a total idiot and a clown back then and I think the same about anyone pushing this "all men are complicit" angle now.

We can't blame fathers for raising sex offenders because many kids had no father figure present in their childhoods and so it brings us WAY too close to asking about the single mothers who raised sex offenders.

We can't really blame the friends, acquaintances, neighbors or colleagues of sex offenders either because that would require us to acknowledge the complicity of female friends etc.

So it HAS to be an idea that "Men" are responsible in some way for the actions of other men.

However this discussion takes place against a background where Men and Women are equal, Women are strong and powerful, Women can do anything a Man can do and Gender Roles are potentially damaging.

So if I am on the train and some guy shouts "show us yer t*ts" at a woman then why the hell should I step in and say anything? She can't stand up for herself? I thought women were equal to men? I thought gender roles were bad? Why does she then need a man to step in and fix the problem? I'm not allowed to Mansplain or Manspread so why would I want to Mantervene on her behalf?

Mantervene: When a man has to intervene to help a woman in a situation where she can't handle it herself.

The women sitting there and doing nothing are not complicit? No, just the men.

Let's ramp up the seriousness of the crime. We live in a society where rape is seen as one of the worst crimes you could ever commit. We live in a society were rapists are utterly despised.

So if someone commits an act of rape I am also partially on the hook for that because I have the same chromosomes as the rapist? It feels like we are bordering on irrational belief here.

It's not really the chromosomes though is it? Trans-women have XY chromosomes but they are not on the hook for "Rape Culture" are they?

So it's more about how you identify and express your gender? I don't know. All I know is that we are expected to take responsibility for horrifying crimes because we have something in common with the guy who did it.

Gender roles are bad though, right guys? Gender roles are bad, now take Hesponsibility for the actions of people with the same gender as you.

Hesponsibilty - when society expects men to take responsibility not only for their actions but for everyone else's f*ck ups too.

"It's a Man problem". "I'm not supposed to say that because men get upset". Well, you idiot, maybe men get upset because nobody likes to be told that they are responsible for things that have nothing to do with them.

Message to Single Mothers: Please stop raising sex offenders! Oh now YOU'RE offended? Hm. Isn't that interesting.

I am amazed that we have this argument raging about equality and how women are capable of anything and how we shouldn't push gender roles and yet we have this: "The bad guys won't listen to us but maybe they will listen to you".

So she is saying it's too dangerous and difficult for women to stand up to "the bad guys" so we need to put our good guy men into the firing line and hope that they can overcome?

Guess what guys? If you won't join the fight then you are just as bad as a rapist. Oh no, sorry, you aren't as bad as a rapist. You're just complicit. Just a little bit of complicity. Like kind of maybe it's your fault a little bit that rape happens. Ya know? Cos you're a guy. (gender roles are bad though, everyone is an individual, don't forget)

I can't help but feel that the author is taking the actions of bad guys and using that to bully and shame good guys.

Does anyone read these types of articles and consider the possibility that the writer is an actual bully? It seems like a campaign of bullying and shaming to me but what is the end goal?

Do they really expect that men will somehow manage to end "Rape Culture" all by themselves by speaking out against "make me a sandwich" jokes and the like? Or that we can collective end catcalling by getting in the face of other dudes who we think have overstepped a boundary?

Why can't women do this themselves? Not strong enough? Not their responsibility? Need someone to Mantervene and take Hesponsibility for you?

khaldrogo

This Morning with Philip and Holly is on in the background. They did piece just now on some male yoga teacher who does yoga in just a kilt or something. They opened the topic to tweets and msgs etc.............if the sexes were reversed there would be uproar about some of what was said objectifying the man.

Saruhashi

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Lads, I apologise for the rest of my gender. You deserve better than to be lumped in with the tiny percentage of bad guys.

I hope you are joking but actually I've seen a lot of dudes recently who will outright apologize to women on behalf of their gender. I even see people do it with race too.

I always think the correct and compassionate thing to do there is to say "hey, you don't need to apologize for things you didn't do and don't approve of".

Often though it feels like the response is akin to "apologies aren't good enough, now grovel some more".

No need to ever apologize when you haven't done anything wrong.

PeterParker957

Saruhashi wrote: »

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Lads, I apologise for the rest of my gender. You deserve better than to be lumped in with the tiny percentage of bad guys.

I hope you are joking but actually I've seen a lot of dudes recently who will outright apologize to women on behalf of their gender. I even see people do it with race too.

I always think the correct and compassionate thing to do there is to say "hey, you don't need to apologize for things you didn't do and don't approve of".

Often though it feels like the response is akin to "apologies aren't good enough, now grovel some more".

No need to ever apologize when you haven't done anything wrong.

No am serious. I have almost all male friends. My best mate of 20 years is a bloke. When as a woman I am expected to sign up for the "all men are rapists" schtick I am so angry.

sbsquarepants

frozenfrozen wrote: »

No physical danger or no danger of any bad outcome from a woman sexually harassing him?

Plenty of physical danger, I'd rather be attacked by a random man than a random woman considering I could at least attempt to defend myself from a man but would be better off letting a woman glass me

not to mention the leverage a woman has by simply saying she will tell people you touched her

I've been attacked by both. Trust me, the woman was very much the preferred one of the two!

I mean less physical danger. If a man is out on the town and a hen party for example start grabbing and pinching etc. as has probably happened most blokes at some stage, you just laugh it off - you know they aren't going to do you any real harm, but switch the genders and it's a much scarier prospect for the woman being mauled by a group of men.

I think for this reason alone (and others too obviously, but this is reason enough by itself I mean) men just should not put their hands on women, it's not funny to slap someone's arse or anything like that, even if meant as a joke - it can be very intimidating for a woman. If you know them and know how they'll take it, then slap away, but a stranger - no, keep your hands to yourself!

frozenfrozen

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I've been attacked by both. Trust me, the woman was very much the preferred one of the two!

I mean less physical danger. If a man is out on the town and a hen party for example start grabbing and pinching etc. as has probably happened most blokes at some stage, you just laugh it off - you know they aren't going to do you any real harm, but switch the genders and it's a much scarier prospect for the woman being mauled by a group of men.

I think for this reason alone (and others too obviously, but this is reason enough by itself I mean) men just should not put their hands on women, it's not funny to slap someone's arse or anything like that, even if meant as a joke - it can be very intimidating for a woman. If you know them and know how they'll take it, then slap away, but a stranger - no, keep your hands to yourself!

I was just replying to you saying the man knows he's in no actual danger, nothing else.

Meeting them in a dark alley? Yeah ok being attacked by a woman would be favourable but in a crowded pub for example? "How can she slap" comes to mind.

I never suggested men should put their hands on women so not sure where the second half of your reply has come from.

Why can't women just laugh it off when sexual harassment turns out to 'just' be groping? How very ignorant of you to suggest a group of women could never do anything more than 'just' groping to a man.

I don't disagree it would be more scary for a woman to be sexually harassed in the scenario you describe but that doesn't mean men should be required to laugh it off and it certainly doesn't mean that all men should feel guilty of sexual harassment and that women are somehow incapable of putting a man in actual danger.

Triceratops Ballet

PeterParker957 wrote: »

No am serious. I have almost all male friends. My best mate of 20 years is a bloke. When as a woman I am expected to sign up for the "all men are rapists" schtick I am so angry.

well whoever puts that expectation on you is in the wrong and clearly a lunatic!

While I do believe we are all responsible for how society is, the good and the bad I don't expect people to start apologising for it, I don't want to hear I'm sorrys on behalf of any gender.
People apologising personally all over twitter and instagram is weird.

I can be sorry that someone had to experience something without having to apologise for it being perpetrated. That's what empathy is, it's hearing someones story and going "oh I'm sorry, that's pretty sh!t" It's a flaw of language really if you think about it. When people say "oh my granny died", we all say I'm sorry, you're not apologising for killing the granny, but you're saying that you feel sorry that someone is experiencing this crappy thing.

All men don't harass women and all women don't harass men, but we do all live in a world where that sh!t happens, we have a choice in how we react to it.
Far more of us live in the middle of the spectrum where we're respectful of others, than live on the creepy gropey end or the puritanical perpetually triggered ends of the spectrum, so if all the reasonable people just turned to their friends when they say or do something a$$holey, rather than rolling their eyes and going "oh you know Nick/Nikki s/he's just like that" then things could change.

On the subject of the article, yeah it's bull it's badly constructed and is at best an rant more suited to her facebook page. The best course of action to combat that kind of tripe is to contact the paper and actively complain about it (by email not in the comments). When enough people complain about the general tone of articles, commercial interests will cause the business to review who they pay for what and they will have to change.
Clicking articles like this and debating in comments sections is feeding into the narrative and creating a divide between men and women that I for one don't actually believe exists in the real world. I don't experience this sort of line down the middle and everyone to their own side and make snipes at each other type thing out there in the real world where the air and the trees and the 3d people are. I only experience it online. The pictures painted of men and women here and in the media, don't really line up with my experiences of the men and women I meet and interact with in real life.

thebaz

khaldrogo wrote: »

If these feminazis had their way we'd all be eunuchs walking around the place apologizing for being born male.......

I am 100% in favour of women being equal in all aspects. I have 2 daughters and want them to be treated right but I do not agree with the feminists who spout hateful rhetoric about the 'evil' of men.

its like the Irish Times has an agenda for promoting this anti male mantra - yet one of the most horrible male culprits came from within the IT - Tom H - a bit of balance would go along way, instead of promoting this division - and I too have a son and daughter whom I love equally and want equal opportunities for.

sbsquarepants

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Why can't women just laugh it off when sexual harassment turns out to 'just' be groping? How very ignorant of you to suggest a group of women could never do anything more than 'just' groping to a man.

I don't disagree it would be more scary for a woman to be sexually harassed in the scenario you describe but that doesn't mean men should be required to laugh it off and it certainly doesn't mean that all men should feel guilty of sexual harassment and that women are somehow incapable of putting a man in actual danger.

I'm not suggesting it's impossible for a woman or a group of women to harm a man - just that it's not as likely as the other way around. And it's not, not by a long shot - and you know that!

Me grabbing Sheilas arse has much scarier connotations than Sheila grabbing mine. That's just a fact of life.

The average woman is not like Ronda Rousey (unfortunately:D)

HandsomeBob

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Yeah that's fair enough

Even if you call out Paddy/Mary on their behaviour it will still not take back that behaviour or the hurt i caused the person on the receiving end of it

I also think it the majority of cases "Paddy/ Mary" know that his/her behaviour is d1ckish

I don't believe in guilt by association however and that's it's all men/womens problem that individuals of their gender misbehave

I think a person needs to understand themselves and what they stand for above all else.

I have a friend, more an acquaintance now, that is an awful fcuker in his behaviour towards women on a night out. He's a good looking bloke but will still grab women as they walk by and either grope them or simplistically go straight for the "wear" as if he was still a teen. It's as if he doesn't want to actually put the hard work in of actually getting to know someone and instead aggressively goes after something he thinks he's entitled to.

I never confronted him but eventually cut contact with him. If I see him on the train station I won't approach him. I won't put up with his sh1t anymore so haven't had a drink with him in years. I used to feel like crap overlooking his behaviour......I don't anymore because I made a stand on something I believed in.

Last thing I heard he was hanging around with his younger brother and his mates.....in other words lads who are like minded and who will overlook his sh1t behaviour. It's sad behaviour from a 28 year old.

Shelga

I used to follow Louise McSharry on Twitter. I had to unfollow her as she is in a permanent state of outrage and it's exhausting.

When I clicked on the link for this article, I knew exactly what it would say. I am so sick of the absolute shite that passes for journalism these days. A tiny hive of bees buzzing louder and louder with each other until that's all anyone can hear, not the 99% of normal people who don't give a flying fcuk about this stuff on a day to day basis.

I'm a woman, I would say it's less than 10 times in my life the amount of times I've had a guy say or do something that could be considered on some spectrum of sexual harassment. What did I do? I got on with my life because in the grand scheme of things these incidents caused me no harm whatsoever.

Not to dismiss the truly awful abuses of power Harvey Weinstein and his ilk inflict on vulnerable women, but am I missing something? Neither me nor any of my friends have been subject to that level of harassment, ever. I read about how women are treated in the middle east and I cringe deeply for McSharry and her band of whingers.

Kiith

I'm not responsible for my gender. I'm not responsible for my race. I'm not responsible for anyone else. I am responsible for my actions, and my actions alone.

If you judge me by how other people act, you can **** right off.

Tigger

im gender responsability fluid

RabbleRouser2k

Saruhashi wrote: »

I hope you are joking but actually I've seen a lot of dudes recently who will outright apologize to women on behalf of their gender. I even see people do it with race too.

I always think the correct and compassionate thing to do there is to say "hey, you don't need to apologize for things you didn't do and don't approve of".

Often though it feels like the response is akin to "apologies aren't good enough, now grovel some more".

No need to ever apologize when you haven't done anything wrong.

It's like the Harry Enfield sketch about the German guy apologising for what Germany did during WW2. It really feels like it at times.

Saw some guys 'apologising' for the power he had when he asked a girl to kiss him, and then she said no, and he accept that.
I mean...come on! The 'power' there is entirely down to the person. You can have a situation where a woman goes out, looking 'f**king hot'-and knowing it-and she's the one with the power. If you're a guy, you've been in that situation...where 'I can't remember my name and I just walked into a wall'-such was her beauty.
Dating isn't 'one has the power, one don't'. It's give and take. If someone is a mauler, just hit them away. Make a scene, the onus is on them for being jerks.

sbsquarepants

Saruhashi wrote: »

I hope you are joking but actually I've seen a lot of dudes recently who will outright apologize to women on behalf of their gender. I even see people do it with race too.

I always think the correct and compassionate thing to do there is to say "hey, you don't need to apologize for things you didn't do and don't approve of".

Often though it feels like the response is akin to "apologies aren't good enough, now grovel some more".

No need to ever apologize when you haven't done anything wrong.

I know exactly what you mean

I remember years back at a work do, a bloke I worked with *still do actually, and he's still a wanker!) was twisted drunk and getting very grabby with a few random women we were talking to, he's a bit of an arsehole at the best of times, but usually drinks himself into oblivion and passes out after making a twat of himself. This time he's been at the red bull and the passing out just wasn't happening! I told him several times, as did a few others to leave it out and keep his hands to himself.
At one stage after I had to go over and separate him from one particular girl he was pestering, I leaned over and said something like "sorry about him, he's just a drunken prick" and she bit my head off - "well why don't you bring him home then!" I tried explaining that he wasn't my friend, I didn't even know where he lived, I just worked with him, but she was having none of it.

I'm sure the girl was pissed off, and rightly so - but I definitely felt her anger was very misplaced. It was hardly my fault some fúcking sleaze bag was mauling her. In fact he would have still been, if I hadn't stopped him.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm sure the girl was pissed off, and rightly so - but I definitely felt her anger was very misplaced. It was hardly my fault some fúcking sleaze bag was mauling her. In fact he would have still been, if I hadn't stopped him.

You got involved by apologizing to her... and she could easily have thought you were trying to be reasonable to score points with her. Wouldn't be the first time that a guy has tried playing that angle.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

You got involved by apologizing to her... and she could easily have thought you were trying to be reasonable to score points with her. Wouldn't be the first time that a guy has tried playing that angle.

Even if that was the case, surely it would still be better to stop him than to leave him at it?

For what it's worth, it wasn't what I was at - I just hate that sleazy, grabby carry on. It's disgusting - you should keep you damn hands to yourself!

lazybones32

blue note wrote: »

I can agree to a point that society enables these actions. Through inaction, lewd jokes, judgemental attitudes.

But why pick out men as the only section that does this? We've all hard girls discuss a girls clothes and describe them as slutty or stress that they wouldn't wear that because they'd look like a tramp. This type of chat does bring down the level of what's acceptable to say about someone and that does have a knock on effect, sine people will then feel it's okay to say some of these things to a person and maybe even give their arse a pinch or something. "If she's wearing that, then maybe she's the type of girl who'd be flattered by it" sort of attitude.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to apportion blame to these people who aren't doing any of the sexual harassing, but maybe part of the solution does have to come from nipping some of it in the bud. But, why on earth are women exempt from this? If we're serious about changing behaviour, why are we only looking at half the people? And it's a fact that's not lost on that half, you can see here how defensive people are because they feel they're being singled out. If it was acknowledged as a problem across society, people might be more willing to consider it.

When feminism is used to 'right a wrong' i'd wager money that the 'wrong' is something that men/patriarchy is perceived to be inflicting on women. I never see any female v female issues addressed. I never see any material aimed at young women/teens or about personal development - no, every problem is an external factor and must be attacked.
The issues that get most coverage are the ones that benefit the least; namely, getting women into positions of power. Feminism isn't about helping all women, only a few and ironically, to achieve their goals they end up mimicing the actions of the patriarchy who they so much despise.

Tigger

if im sexually harassed by a gay is it my fault as a man for notvsetting him straight? or am i just being a homophobic?

El_Duderino 09

I would say most of the article is hyperbole and shouldn't be taken literally. I certainly don't feel responsible for the actions of other people but I can share some responsibility for the actions that I condone by laughing along with.

I went back to uni in my mid-late 20s and I can safely say I went along with a lot of banter that I've since come to see as plainly wrong. Fellas bragging about sex with women who were very drunk. Even tagging each other in on drunk women. It was built into the culture as banter and I laughed along.

To the extent that anyone can be responsible for socially reinforcing a negative behaviour, I was responsible.

The narrative has changed on sexual assault and responsibilities. In the past it was normal to help cover up child abuse. Now you would be seen as partly responsible for not actively reporting sexual abuse that you know about. The same is happening with adult sexual abuse. This might be that last time you see people coming forward saying they knew it was happening but didn't do anything to stop it. In 10 years time, those people who knew bud didn't do anything would be seen as partly responsible.

This article is about moving it from celebrities and Hollywood power players, to the normal people who see this type of thing happen and don't do anything except offer tacit support for that behaviour.

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I would say most of the article is hyperbole and shouldn't be taken literally. I certainly don't feel responsible for the actions of other people but I can share some responsibility for the actions that I condone by laughing along with.

I went back to uni in my mid-late 20s and I can safely say I went along with a lot of banter that I've since come to see as plainly wrong. Fellas bragging about sex with women who were very drunk. Even tagging each other in on drunk women. It was built into the culture as banter and I laughed along.

To the extent that anyone can be responsible for socially reinforcing a negative behaviour, I was responsible.

The narrative has changed on sexual assault and responsibilities. In the past it was normal to help cover up child abuse. Now you would be seen as partly responsible for not actively reporting sexual abuse that you know about. The same is happening with adult sexual abuse. This might be that last time you see people coming forward saying they knew it was happening but didn't do anything to stop it. In 10 years time, those people who knew bud didn't do anything would be seen as partly responsible.

This article is about moving it from celebrities and Hollywood power players, to the normal people who see this type of thing happen and don't do anything except offer tacit support for that behaviour.

Its not though! Its specifically about men not intervening. If it was as broad as you imply there would be far less issue with the article.

If men are complicit then how are women, as mothers and sisters, not equally as complicit for raising the lad without teaching them this? How are his female friends and colleagues not equally complicit for not raising the issue. Why is it somehow only men who need to be called out here?

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote:

Its not though! Its specifically about men not intervening. If it was as broad as you imply there would be far less issue with the article.

Yeah it's about the normal man not intervening instead of far away powerful people like Weinstein's peers not intervening.

tritium wrote:

If men are complicit then how are women, as mothers and sisters, not equally as complicit for raising the lad without teaching them this? How are his female friends and colleagues not equally complicit for not raising the issue. Why is it somehow only men who need to be called out here?

I don't agree that it's only men that need to be called out. That's the only angle the article takes but that's not the full story.

Avatar MIA

Avatar MIA wrote: »

According to Louise McSharry

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/metoo-i-was-six-the-first-time-a-man-made-me-feel-uncomfortable-1.3260390

'If they’re really honest though, most of them know they are complicit in some way or another.'

Is there a problem, of course there is. Does it affect women more than men for sure, but I've my own experiences of being groped by women - does it affect me less than a woman, probably. But, I don't like the tone of this article.

I just had a read of the article. Beforehand I was assuming that it would be filled with faux outage about very little but I was wrong. The incidences Louise writes about are not ok. A man carrying on like that towards a six year old child is very inappropriate, putting your hand under a woman's skirt is very inappropriate.

When you say you don't like the tone is it because you feel she is edging close to tarring all men with the one brush? Or making the argument that this type of behaviour only happens to women? Often times these kind of articles can certainly come across that way. We are lead to believe that only women can be the victim and men the oppressor. A view I completely disagree with.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

I just had a read of the article. Beforehand I was assuming that it would be filled with faux outage about very little but I was wrong. The incidences Louise writes about are not ok. A man carrying on like that towards a six year old child is very inappropriate, putting your hand under a woman's skirt is very inappropriate.

.

I absolutely agree with you. I have a daughter who is nearly 5, if I seen some cretin doing that to her, id punch him till I passed out from exhaustion. That's absolutely disgusting!

Tigger

Deleted User wrote: »

I just had a read of the article. Beforehand I was assuming that it would be filled with faux outage about very little but I was wrong. The incidences Louise writes about are not ok. A man carrying on like that towards a six year old child is very inappropriate, putting your hand under a woman's skirt is very inappropriate.

When you say you don't like the tone is it because you feel she is edging close to tarring all men with the one brush? Or making the argument that this type of behaviour only happens to women? Often times these kind of articles can certainly come across that way. We are lead to believe that only women can be the victim and men the oppressor. A view I completely disagree with.

shes makingbout that men laughing at men who comment inappropriatly abouy women is tantamount to ignoring a man being wierd towards a 6year old

El_Duderino 09

Tigger wrote:

shes makingbout that men laughing at men who comment inappropriatly abouy women is tantamount to ignoring a man being wierd towards a 6year old

Does it actually say that? It mentions both but I didn't thinking said one was tantamount to the other.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

Your original post was quite clear:



You made an undeniable link between young girls, sex and manipulation. You think they use their sexual characteristics to manipulate men.
That says a lot more about you than it does about the average young girl.

(Am I really the only one here bothered by this?)

You're the only one insisting on reading it this way. Quite clear that you're misinterpreting.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

You're the only one insisting on reading it this way. Quite clear that you're misinterpreting.

Please read the relevant paragraph again

Most girls (and I mean girls) know (from practical experience or education) what sex is by early teens. Modern society doesn't give a lot of space to ignore it unless you're living in the Arctic. They also know what they can get from sex. Movies, music, etc all encourage women/girls to use their physical appearance to influence men. And Honestly, most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age. All it takes is a sister for any man to see the effects of that. Our society actively encourages women to see themselves as special, and that, well, sex sells.

He makes it extremely clear that he is talking about girls; not women, very young girls.

He specifically talks about how they know what sex is, and how they start using their physical appearance to influence and manipulate men from a young age.

I feel like I'm in some kind of bizarro-world here, is this really a standard and perfectly ok, perfectly normal opinion to have of little girls?

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

Please read the relevant paragraph again



He makes it extremely clear that he is talking about girls; not women, very young girls.

He specifically talks about how they know what sex is, and how they start using their physical appearance to influence and manipulate men from a young age.

I feel like I'm in some kind of bizarro-world here, is this really a standard and perfectly ok, perfectly normal opinion to have of little girls?

Yeah I read it thanks.