Men (Us too), all (at least most) guilty for sexual harassment

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I read it thanks.

And you think that's a perfectly normal, perfectly fine opinion to have of very young girls?

Tigger

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Does it actually say that? It mentions both but I didn't thinking said one was tantamount to the other.

it states that its a men problem so im guilty even thoni wasnt there

Tigger

Tigger wrote: »

it states that its a men problem so im guilty even thoni wasnt there

#tiggered

El_Duderino 09

Tigger wrote:

it states that its a men problem so im guilty even thoni wasnt there

Ok. I was asking whether or not it says this below. Does it actually say " men laughing at men who comment inappropriatly abouy women is tantamount to ignoring a man being wierd towards a 6year old"?

Tigger wrote:

shes makingbout that men laughing at men who comment inappropriatly abouy women is tantamount to ignoring a man being wierd towards a 6year old

KrustyUCC

I have a few friends on facebook who have posted that #metoo# should not be used by men as it is disparaging towards the ‘majority of women’ who experience rape/sexual assault

I would like the think the #metoo# logo should fit these stories

http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/men-who-were-sexually-assaulted-10271205

The first story is particularly galling for me

1. "I lost a lot because 'girls can't rape boys'"

"A good friend of mine's wife used to hit on me a lot. We were all old friends from school and I never really told her off, just kind of laughed it off since she'd do it in front of my wife and her husband.

"We had a party at their house one night, I passed out watching Anchorman. Woke up sometime later (movie was still on, so not too much later) to her tugging and sucking on my d***.

"I asked what she was doing, she just looked at me. I rolled away, zipped up, went to the bathroom.

"Did that thing you sometimes do when you're drunk where you talk to yourself mentally while looking in the mirror (maybe that's just me?).

"Went back out to the living room, she had retired to her bedroom and I laid on the couch until our friends returned from a liquor run.

"I stuck close to my buddy who I'd gone out there with, we both slept out in the living room. Told him what had happened on the way home. Not sure he believed me, which kind of sucked. Tearfully told my wife about it once I got home, not sure she believed me either.

"She posts on Facebook that morning: 'I'll keep you my dirty little secret.'

"Fast forward a few months, her husband knows. Her sister knows. Everybody in our circle knows, because she told them.

"Of course she painted a different picture and it's now my word against hers ("and she's a mother , you guys, why would she lie").

"Her sister punched me in the face when I said it didn't go down that way and that I'm pretty sure what actually happened could be considered rape.

"I don't hang out with those people anymore. I'm not married to that wife anymore. I never see my friend (whose wife was responsible) anymore. I lost kind of a lot over that because 'girls can't rape boys'."

That guy lost a lot

One of the cornerstones of #metoo# is why men don’t believe our stories

That article chronicles 6 mens stories

I wonder would Louise McSharry apply her same criteria " "Now it’s women’s turn to do something about this problem. As mothers, as sisters, as daughters, or maybe even just as decent human beings.” to this story?

Dotsie~tmp

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know exactly what you mean

I remember years back at a work do, a bloke I worked with *still do actually, and he's still a wanker!) was twisted drunk and getting very grabby with a few random women we were talking to, he's a bit of an arsehole at the best of times, but usually drinks himself into oblivion and passes out after making a twat of himself. This time he's been at the red bull and the passing out just wasn't happening! I told him several times, as did a few others to leave it out and keep his hands to himself.
At one stage after I had to go over and separate him from one particular girl he was pestering, I leaned over and said something like "sorry about him, he's just a drunken prick" and she bit my head off - "well why don't you bring him home then!" I tried explaining that he wasn't my friend, I didn't even know where he lived, I just worked with him, but she was having none of it.

I'm sure the girl was pissed off, and rightly so - but I definitely felt her anger was very misplaced. It was hardly my fault some fúcking sleaze bag was mauling her. In fact he would have still been, if I hadn't stopped him.

Mistake 1: Hanging around with **** in any context. It will rub off in some way like it or not.
Mistake 2: Intervening in the actions of someone you self profess isn't a friend. Not your problem. Don't white-knight ever.
Mistake 3: Ever apologising to a woman who isn't either you mother, sister, girlfriend or wife. Fuc*ing why?

RabbleRouser2k

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I have a few friends on facebook who have posted that #metoo# should not be used by men as it is disparaging towards the ‘majority of women’ who experience rape/sexual assault

I would like the think the #metoo# logo should fit these stories

http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/men-who-were-sexually-assaulted-10271205

The first story is particularly galling for me

1. "I lost a lot because 'girls can't rape boys'"

"A good friend of mine's wife used to hit on me a lot. We were all old friends from school and I never really told her off, just kind of laughed it off since she'd do it in front of my wife and her husband.

"We had a party at their house one night, I passed out watching Anchorman. Woke up sometime later (movie was still on, so not too much later) to her tugging and sucking on my d***.

"I asked what she was doing, she just looked at me. I rolled away, zipped up, went to the bathroom.

"Did that thing you sometimes do when you're drunk where you talk to yourself mentally while looking in the mirror (maybe that's just me?).

"Went back out to the living room, she had retired to her bedroom and I laid on the couch until our friends returned from a liquor run.

"I stuck close to my buddy who I'd gone out there with, we both slept out in the living room. Told him what had happened on the way home. Not sure he believed me, which kind of sucked. Tearfully told my wife about it once I got home, not sure she believed me either.

"She posts on Facebook that morning: 'I'll keep you my dirty little secret.'

"Fast forward a few months, her husband knows. Her sister knows. Everybody in our circle knows, because she told them.

"Of course she painted a different picture and it's now my word against hers ("and she's a mother , you guys, why would she lie").

"Her sister punched me in the face when I said it didn't go down that way and that I'm pretty sure what actually happened could be considered rape.

"I don't hang out with those people anymore. I'm not married to that wife anymore. I never see my friend (whose wife was responsible) anymore. I lost kind of a lot over that because 'girls can't rape boys'."

That guy lost a lot

One of the cornerstones of #metoo# is why men don’t believe our stories

That article chronicles 6 mens stories

I wonder would Louise McSharry apply her same criteria " "Now it’s women’s turn to do something about this problem. As mothers, as sisters, as daughters, or maybe even just as decent human beings.” to this story?

That's absolutely horrible and heartbreaking-I can't imagine how he felt afterwards. Hope he got counselling or something for it.

Saw some women on twitter being all 'sit down and shut up' to guys who tweeted 'me too'.

And Rose McGowan has gone into 'full white feminist' mode-as in 'doesn't want to hear from lgbt people-including Ellen Degeneres, Women of colour or men (She blamed one of her comments on being stoned-not the lgbt one tho). So it took only 4 days for her to go insane.

Tombo2001

I know myself I've been sexually harassed a number of times, minor stuff - groped, grabbed mostly - but still sometimes the sort of stuff that is populating a lot of the 'me-too' commentary.

Sometimes by men, sometimes by women.

However - at no time did I feel fear when this happened; might have felt a bit grossed out, humiliated or uncomfortable, but not afraid.

And thats a really big difference. So overall, i'd barely remember it happening.

And a related point is - when I read about women's experience being sexually assaulted and the impact this has on their lives - it reminds me much more of how I felt when I was bullied (secondary school).

And obviously within that - I was very afraid, there was a big physical imbalance, there was a difference in power, and it was very traumatic.

RabbleRouser2k

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I know myself I've been sexually harassed a number of times, minor stuff - groped, grabbed mostly - but still sometimes the sort of stuff that is populating a lot of the 'me-too' commentary.

Sometimes by men, sometimes by women.

However - at no time did I feel fear when this happened; might have felt a bit grossed out, humiliated or uncomfortable, but not afraid.

And thats a really big difference. So overall, i'd barely remember it happening.

And a related point is - when I read about women's experience being sexually assaulted and the impact this has on their lives - it reminds me much more of how I felt when I was bullied (secondary school).

And obviously within that - I was very afraid, there was a big physical imbalance, there was a difference in power, and it was very traumatic.

You know, I felt the very, very same. The bullying I mean.
When I read the Weinstein thing, I remembered the bullying I went through-how as a teenager, I was told to sort it out myself (by every adult I knew). Even one teacher told me to fight it out with them- I was already suffering from depression by then, had been for years, so fighting would do nothing.

Thought that was behind me-but I encountered similar in the years since, even recent, some of which was equal or worse to what I experienced. When it's by women, it's less 'her word versus mine' it's 'her word is sacrosanct, and you're a liar'. In those situations, I find that I have to fight so much harder to just be believed. And in those cases, the nice guy disappears-you have to become the person with the paperwork, the research, knowing the law. But they all affect mental health. Some more so than others. Because you often encounter someone who has already judged who you are.

Saruhashi

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I went back to uni in my mid-late 20s and I can safely say I went along with a lot of banter that I've since come to see as plainly wrong. Fellas bragging about sex with women who were very drunk. Even tagging each other in on drunk women. It was built into the culture as banter and I laughed along.

To the extent that anyone can be responsible for socially reinforcing a negative behaviour, I was responsible.

Without having too much of a go at you if you are present when the lads are doing this stuff then it's pretty bad that you didn't at least say something.

If these were just second hand stories you were hearing then I guess just saying "lads that's out of order" is about all you can do. Then stop socializing with those people.

I don't think your silence could be seen as reinforcing the behavior though. Why would you think that yourself?

You don't seem like a bad person at all, El_Duderino 09, so I don't think it's right that you should be feeling responsible for the actions of some pretty awful people.

We have to talk about equality and responsibility in these kind of situations too. That's never an easy thing to start talking about as it relates to these kind of topics so I hope people can stay open minded here.

If we, as a collective, are saying "El_Duderino 09, if your friends are bragging about sex with very drunk women then the responsibility falls on your shoulders AS A MAN to make sure that guy stops engaging in this behavior".

What responsibility do women have to take here?

Problem here is that the crime is already committed. The best you can hope for is to report it to police. The minimum you could do is to say "don't do that again".

You can't preemptively stop the crime. So should we put any burden on the women to protect themselves?

There's a lady on a night out in Dublin and she is getting smashed. Blind drunk. She knows there are predatory dudes around. She's reminded constantly at uni that we live in a Rape Culture. She's gonna get smashed anyway. She encounters one of your "friends" and she gets into a taxi with him and goes back to his place and things get out of control.

How can it be that you are somehow complicit in this but she takes no responsibility at all? You could maybe have said to this guy "now don't you be having non consensual sex with drunk women or I'll be calling the cops". You could have gone the vigilante route. What more could you have reasonably done?

People will say "don't teach girls to be safe, teach men not to rape". I say "why not both?".

So you have to be vigilant on behalf of women on nights out? Right? Make sure any inappropriate males are identified and dealt with.

If you fail then that's it. You were her last line of defense. So whatever happens to them... that's on you, buddy.

Just don't dare suggest that maybe the ladies could be vigilant and responsible too.

How is any of this right?

I feel like the Feminist expectation is, at best, that we can engineer society so that the thought to push the boundaries with a drunk girl can't even arise in the mind of anyone. At worst, they expect men to defend women from other men whilst also not conforming to traditional gender roles. Are these expectations reasonable?

What do you feel are your responsibilities to society as a man and how do those responsibilities compare to those of a woman?

the_syco

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/a-simple-list-of-things-men-can-do-to-change-our-work-and-life-culture

Don’t talk over women.

Should we allow them to talk over us?

Don’t need to literally witness a man being horrible in order to believe that he’s horrible. Trust and believe women.

And not trust men?

Learn to read a ****ing room.

Can someone explain this to me?

And finally, regarding the very last one;

Don’t read a list like this and think that most of these don’t apply to you.

It sounds like every man should assume he is being viewed as a rapist by every women in his life?

=-=

Society is teaching people one thing; if you're a white male, you're always wrong.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

I feel like I'm in some kind of bizarro-world here, is this really a standard and perfectly ok, perfectly normal opinion to have of little girls?

There was a misunderstanding, and the fault was mine. I meant to write it as being young teens. I've spent almost a decade in a country where the word "girl" covers a wide range, and I meant to describe them as being young teens.

If I gave the impression of describing very young girls being sexually aware and using sex for influence, I apologise. Not my intent.

Tigger

Tigger wrote: »

shes makingbout that men laughing at men who comment inappropriatly abouy women is tantamount to ignoring a man being wierd towards a 6year old

I'm not sure if she is. What I took from the article was her giving experiences of varying degrees of unwelcome behaviour from some men.
This doesnt mean that there are men who have never been touched inappropriately or made to feel uncomfortable by women or indeed other men. Discussing one genders experience doesn't negate from anothers.

the_syco

the_syco wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/a-simple-list-of-things-men-can-do-to-change-our-work-and-life-culture

Should we allow them to talk over us?

And not trust men?

Can someone explain this to me?

And finally, regarding the very last one;

It sounds like every man should assume he is being viewed as a rapist by every women in his life?

=-=

Society is teaching people one thing; if you're a white male, you're always wrong.

Now there is an article that has a definite tone of anger coming off it. It's assuming all men require a handbook telling them how to behave around women.

johnnyskeleton

Don’t touch women you don’t know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to touch women in general

Does this mean that in her mind we shouldnt shake hands, or tap a woman on the shoulder if she drops her purse etc?

Or does it mean dont grab them by the private parts?

Because the first is a normal part of human interaction and the latter is sexual assault.

If a woman has not given an enthusiastic “yes” to sex, back the hell off

Obviously the writer has never been in a long term relationship - consensual sex is not always enthusiastic and doesnt, as a matter of law need to be. This applies to both men and women.

Don’t expect women to be “nice” or “cute” and don’t get upset when they aren’t those things.

Again, a little unclear what she means. If its that you shouldnt assume that every woman is nice and cute then Id agree with her. There are some awful weapons out there and men are well advised to centre their affections on the nice cute women over the sexy but nasty ones. The women who arent nice or cute dont deserve your time or your affections.

Is that what she means, or does she mean that if a woman is not nice or cute you still owe her your time and respect and, if she desires it, your affection?

If a woman tells you that you ****ed up, and you feel like ****, don’t put it on that woman to make you feel better. Apologize without qualification and then go away.

A woman is always right when she is telling you youre wrong!

El_Duderino 09

Saruhashi wrote:

Without having too much of a go at you if you are present when the lads are doing this stuff then it's pretty bad that you didn't at least say something.

I wasn't present so it was all second hand. I saw some stuff on nights out but neither of the things mentioned above

Saruhashi wrote:

If these were just second hand stories you were hearing then I guess just saying "lads that's out of order" is about all you can do. Then stop socializing with those people.

Far from saying they were out of order, I thought it was top craic. It was part of the culture. I wasn't some kind of revolutionary or fun police. I was just having the craic myself. I had a long term girlfriend so I wasn't getting involved in the stuff the freshers were up to with women. I was on the nights out though so I saw some of it. It's only since then that I've thought about whether that stuff was right or wrong.

Saruhashi wrote:

I don't think your silence could be seen as reinforcing the behavior though. Why would you think that yourself?

I wasn't silent. I was laughing along with everyone else. That's offering social reinforcement. To that extent, I was complicit.

Saruhashi wrote:

You don't seem like a bad person at all, El_Duderino 09, so I don't think it's right that you should be feeling responsible for the actions of some pretty awful people.

The level of responsibility I take is that I gave tacit support to a culture that reinforces that behaviour. So to the extent that the culture gives support to the behaviour, I was one of the hundreds of people who gave support to the culture. I don't feel responsible for anyone else's behaviour but I am responsible for the small part I played in the culture of the sports nights out that I'm talking about. That's the part I can have influence on.

Saruhashi wrote:

We have to talk about equality and responsibility in these kind of situations too. That's never an easy thing to start talking about as it relates to these kind of topics so I hope people can stay open minded here.

Saruhashi wrote:

If we, as a collective, are saying "El_Duderino 09, if your friends are bragging about sex with very drunk women then the responsibility falls on your shoulders AS A MAN to make sure that guy stops engaging in this behavior".

Anyone in that situation would be responsible. I was in a rugby team group it was all male peer group. In that case it could only be men.

Saruhashi wrote:

What responsibility do women have to take here?

Similar responsibility to anyone else.

Saruhashi wrote:

Problem here is that the crime is already committed. The best you can hope for is to report it to police. The minimum you could do is to say "don't do that again".

And if I laugh along with the story, then what impact does it have?

Saruhashi wrote:

You can't preemptively stop the crime. So should we put any burden on the women to protect hemselves?

Yes.

Saruhashi wrote:

There's a lady on a night out in Dublin and she is getting smashed. Blind drunk. She knows there are predatory dudes around. She's reminded constantly at uni that we live in a Rape Culture. She's gonna get smashed anyway. She encounters one of your "friends" and she gets into a taxi with him and goes back to his place and things get out of control.

How can it be that you are somehow complicit in this but she takes no responsibility at all? You could maybe have said to this guy "now don't you be having non consensual sex with drunk women or I'll be calling the cops". You could have gone the vigilante route. What more could you have reasonably done?

Im not proposing going vigilante, I don't see that as my responsibility at all. Should I speak my mind? Maybe. Should i see that story as banter and laugh along? No.

Saruhashi wrote:

People will say "don't teach girls to be safe, teach men not to rape". I say "why not both?".

Yep, both.

Saruhashi wrote:

So you have to be vigilant on behalf of women on nights out? Right? Make sure any inappropriate males are identified and dealt with.

If you fail then that's it. You were her last line of defense. So whatever happens to them... that's on you, buddy.

Just don't dare suggest that maybe the ladies could be vigilant and responsible too.

How is any of this right?

None of that is coming from what I said.

Saruhashi wrote:

What do you feel are your responsibilities to society as a man and how do those responsibilities compare to those of a woman?

As above. I don't take responsibility for anyone else's behaviour. But I can have some influence over my peer group and it's culture. That's the part intake responsibility for.
Women and men have very similar if not the same responsibilities.

Avatar MIA

Deleted User wrote: »

We are lead to believe that only women can be the victim and men the oppressor. A view I completely disagree with.

Deleted User wrote: »

When you say you don't like the tone is it because you feel she is edging close to tarring all men with the one brush?

There's no edging, it's explicit.

Deleted User wrote: »

Or making the argument that this type of behaviour only happens to women?

Not sure how you got this idea.

Deleted User wrote: »

We are lead to believe that only women can be the victim and men the oppressor. A view I completely disagree with.

Agreed.

Has anyone wondered if women don't intervene that they are also "complicit"? And therefore we are all complicit. And if we are all complicit doesn't that by definition make it normal. So, maybe people should be allowed to act as they do.

Bollix of course.

Tigger

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure if she is. What I took from the article was her giving experiences of varying degrees of unwelcome behaviour from some men.
This doesnt mean that there are men who have never been touched inappropriately or made to feel uncomfortable by women or indeed other men. Discussing one genders experience doesn't negate from anothers.

i am not my gender, i am an individual not worth any more praise scorn or anything else beause of being a cis white straight male.

she strongly suggests that im carrying the guilt by association of people who fit into a box that i fit into. being male dosent make me the man police.

if there s blame it should be that as a schoolgirl being groped she didnt draw attention to it so other children could be protected
if i were onna buss and noticed a wierdonsticking his hands on a schoolgirl like that id bust his nose. i wouldnt care if hed been my buddy for life or some total stranger.

Tigger

They’re working hard to rail against socialisation which tells them to turn the other cheek when someone makes a sexist joke or lewd comment. If they’re really honest though, most of them know they are complicit in some way or another.

Sharing our experiences isn’t enough. It should be. It should be horrifying for any man to learn about what women are forced to accept as normal behaviour. Unfortunately, it’s not. Some men just can’t believe it.

i've herd loads of these stories but its not normal it just something that some people are getting away with, its too common but its not normal

PeterParker957

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I have a few friends on facebook who have posted that #metoo# should not be used by men as it is disparaging towards the ‘majority of women’ who experience rape/sexual assault

I would like the think the #metoo# logo should fit these stories

http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/men-who-were-sexually-assaulted-10271205

The first story is particularly galling for me

1. "I lost a lot because 'girls can't rape boys'"

"A good friend of mine's wife used to hit on me a lot. We were all old friends from school and I never really told her off, just kind of laughed it off since she'd do it in front of my wife and her husband.

"We had a party at their house one night, I passed out watching Anchorman. Woke up sometime later (movie was still on, so not too much later) to her tugging and sucking on my d***.

"I asked what she was doing, she just looked at me. I rolled away, zipped up, went to the bathroom.

"Did that thing you sometimes do when you're drunk where you talk to yourself mentally while looking in the mirror (maybe that's just me?).

"Went back out to the living room, she had retired to her bedroom and I laid on the couch until our friends returned from a liquor run.

"I stuck close to my buddy who I'd gone out there with, we both slept out in the living room. Told him what had happened on the way home. Not sure he believed me, which kind of sucked. Tearfully told my wife about it once I got home, not sure she believed me either.

"She posts on Facebook that morning: 'I'll keep you my dirty little secret.'

"Fast forward a few months, her husband knows. Her sister knows. Everybody in our circle knows, because she told them.

"Of course she painted a different picture and it's now my word against hers ("and she's a mother , you guys, why would she lie").

"Her sister punched me in the face when I said it didn't go down that way and that I'm pretty sure what actually happened could be considered rape.

"I don't hang out with those people anymore. I'm not married to that wife anymore. I never see my friend (whose wife was responsible) anymore. I lost kind of a lot over that because 'girls can't rape boys'."

That guy lost a lot

One of the cornerstones of #metoo# is why men don’t believe our stories

That article chronicles 6 mens stories

I wonder would Louise McSharry apply her same criteria " "Now it’s women’s turn to do something about this problem. As mothers, as sisters, as daughters, or maybe even just as decent human beings.” to this story?

That's horrific. The same insane uber feminists I work with are open that in their view "men can never be victims of rape or sexual assault". Terrifying view that. What if they're on a jury ???

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a misunderstanding, and the fault was mine. I meant to write it as being young teens. I've spent almost a decade in a country where the word "girl" covers a wide range, and I meant to describe them as being young teens.

If I gave the impression of describing very young girls being sexually aware and using sex for influence, I apologise. Not my intent.

While it's a (slight) relief to hear that you don't actually think pre-pubescent children use sex for influence, it's still extremely disturbing and weird that you think that the average 13-14 year old girl does.

For context that's a kid in 1st-2nd year in school.

They are still basically children.

tritium

B0jangles wrote: »

While it's a (slight) relief to hear that you don't actually think pre-pubescent children use sex for influence, it's still extremely disturbing and weird that you think that the average 13-14 year old girl does.

For context that's a kid in 1st-2nd year in school.

They are still basically children.

Actually the poster made it clear in the initial post that it was teens they were referring too

While not necessarily agreeing with their position, its a naive (and very current generation) view that teens are still children. They (boys and girls) may not be aware of the consequences if the things they do but theyre aware theyre changing and do seek to explore that. Its one good arguement for a sensible age of consent rule that penalises older adults for taking advantage. Its also why our current age of consent law, which can penalise a younger boy for having sex with an underage girl is ****ing shameful (as was out governments defence of it)

Tigger

tritium wrote: »

Actually the poster made it clear in the initial post that it was teens they were referring too

While not necessarily agreeing with their position, its a naive (and very current generation) view that teens are still children. They (boys and girls) may not be aware of the consequences if the things they do but theyre aware theyre changing and do seek to explore that. Its one good arguement for a sensible age of consent rule that penalises older adults for taking advantage. Its also why our current age of consent law, which can penalise a younger boy for having sex with an underage girl is ****ing shameful (as was out governments defence of it)

i thought he ment teens as well but didnt wanna say

B0jangles

tritium wrote: »

Actually the poster made it clear in the initial post that it was teens they were referring too

While not necessarily agreeing with their position, its a naive (and very current generation) view that teens are still children. They (boys and girls) may not be aware of the consequences if the things they do but theyre aware theyre changing and do seek to explore that. Its one good arguement for a sensible age of consent rule that penalises older adults for taking advantage. Its also why our current age of consent law, which can penalise a younger boy for having sex with an underage girl is ****ing shameful (as was out governments defence of it)

I do not think it is appropriate at all for anyone to interpret the behaviour of young teenagers (i.e. 13-14 years old) as though it is comparable to that of an adult.

The poster claimed that young teenage girls use their knowledge of sexual behaviour to manipulate adult men. Read his original post, it's really quite clear that he is talking specifically about young girls and adult men, not teenagers interacting with each other.

They also know what they can get from sex. Movies, music, etc all encourage women/girls to use their physical appearance to influence men. And Honestly, most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age.

He has further clarified that he is not even talking about 15-16 year olds, (which is still a bit off in my opinion), he is deninitely talking about very young teenagers - so 13-14 year olds. He thinks girls that young are aware of their sexuality and are fully able to use it to manipulate adult men.

That's fúcking creepy.

anewme

B0jangles wrote: »

I do not think it is appropriate at all for anyone to interpret the behaviour of young teenagers (i.e. 13-14 years old) as though it is comparable to that of an adult.

The poster claimed that young teenage girls use their knowledge of sexual behaviour to manipulate adult men. Read his original post, it's really quite clear that he is talking specifically about young girls and adult men, not teenagers interacting with each other.



He has further clarified that he is not even talking about 15-16 year olds, (which is still a bit off in my opinion), he is deninitely talking about very young teenagers - so 13-14 year olds. He thinks girls that young are aware of their sexuality and are fully able to use it to manipulate adult men.

That's fúcking creepy.

I'm shocked at the content of that post to be honest.

I've a 14 year old niece. She turns cartwheels and asks for choc ices when you go to the shop.

The very assertatiin that kids of that age would sexually manipulate adult males is not acceptable.

Very much from the Jimmy Saville school of thought.

It's not a healthy attitude to have.

Avatar MIA

There's another article in the Times today about harassment in the work place. The only serious one I can remember in my career was by a woman on a friend of mine.

I brought him into the same department as mine in a large multi-national and our manager plagued him. He was a good looking lad, the type girls would come up to on a night out.

He had no interest in her, because she was not very attractive, was married and had a reputation as a bully.

At a house party they got it on. Nobody was more shocked than I.

The relationship in work cooled between them. Eventually the manager pulled me aside saying how could he do this to me after I (not going to mention the detailed act).

Thankfully an opportunity arose and we both left the company shortly afterwards.

I remember saying/jokingly asking what the hell were you thinking? And while he'd normally be a gregariuos type. I was left in no doubt this was not a discussion he wanted.

Now, it was totally consensual and between two adults, was it harassment?

El_Duderino 09

Avatar MIA wrote:

I brought him into the same department as mine in a large multi-national and our manager plagued him.

He had no interest in her, because she was not very attractive, was married and had a reputation as a bully.

Avatar MIA wrote:

Now, it was totally consensual and between two adults, was it harassment?

She plagued him, was in a position of authority to him in work and he had no interest in her. Yes, it sounds very much like harassment. Hard to imagine it being anything else.

tritium

Avatar MIA wrote: »

There's another article in the Times today about harassment in the work place. The only serious one I can remember in my career was by a woman on a friend of mine.

I brought him into the same department as mine in a large multi-national and our manager plagued him. He was a good looking lad, the type girls would come up to on a night out.

He had no interest in her, because she was not very attractive, was married and had a reputation as a bully.

At a house party they got it on. Nobody was more shocked than I.

The relationship in work cooled between them. Eventually the manager pulled me aside saying how could he do this to me after I (not going to mention the detailed act).

Thankfully an opportunity arose and we both left the company shortly afterwards.

I remember saying/jokingly asking what the hell were you thinking? And while he'd normally be a gregariuos type. I was left in no doubt this was not a discussion he wanted.

Now, it was totally consensual and between two adults, was it harassment?

Would seem pretty clear cut harassment when what you describe.

con___manx1

I have had women group me plenty of times. Not that i really care.
Once i was walking down the street and my fly was down accidentally nothing sticking out i had under ware on.
This older woman comes up to talk to me on the street who was a complete stranger. She notices my fly is down after 2 seconds sticks her hand in my zip .
Another time i was walking by a hen party on a night out. Two of the women went for my manhood on the way past. The first got a feel as i wasnt expecting it.

ligerdub

anewme wrote: »

I'm shocked at the content of that post to be honest.

I've a 14 year old niece. She turns cartwheels and asks for choc ices when you go to the shop.

The very assertatiin that kids of that age would sexually manipulate adult males is not acceptable.

Very much from the Jimmy Saville school of thought.

It's not a healthy attitude to have.

Actually Saville was more of the opportunistically rape the vulnerable school of thought. He used the position of power, both in terms of physical dominance as well as through his status as an individual, to do this. This was the only criteria he seemed to have for his victims. He had young victims, old victims, male victims, female victims, living victims, and if you could stretch the interpretation that far he also had dead victims!

You've also essentially projected the view that the original poster was Savile-esque, which is grossly unfair in my opinion.

If you want to find a closer school of thought to this view, go no further than Queen of the feminists, Ms Germaine Greer.

El_Duderino 09

con___manx1 wrote: »

I have had women group me plenty of times. Not that i really care.
Once i was walking down the street and my fly was down accidentally nothing sticking out i had under ware on.
This older woman comes up to talk to me on the street who was a complete stranger. She notices my fly is down after 2 seconds sticks her hand in my zip .
Another time i was walking by a hen party on a night out. Two of the women went for my manhood on the way past. The first got a feel as i wasnt expecting it.

You say you don't care about those incidents but that's not to say it's ok. Someone else could, quite reasonably, have been very upset about someone grabbing their genitals.

Richard Dawkins got in trouble for suggesting that he experienced a minor sexual assault in school but it didn't really bother him beyond a bit of embarrassment. Other people could have been deeply affected by the same incident.

I'd say the same of your experience. You dont care about it which is fine, but that kind of behaviour should be challenged, first and foremost by their peers.

anewme

ligerdub wrote: »

Actually Saville was more of the opportunistically rape the vulnerable school of thought. He used the position of power, both in terms of physical dominance as well as through his status as an individual, to do this. This was the only criteria he seemed to have for his victims. He had young victims, old victims, male victims, female victims, living victims, and if you could stretch the interpretation that far he also had dead victims!

You've also essentially projected the view that the original poster was Savile-esque, which is grossly unfair in my opinion.

If you want to find a closer school of thought to this view, go no further than Queen of the feminists, Ms Germaine Greer.

To be of the opinion that young teenagers use their sexuality to manipulate adult men is not a healthy attitude to have.

Jimmy Saville had many facets to his character, all of them evil and im not saying this poster has all of them but the idea that adult men would be seduced and manipulated by little more than kids is scary and creepy.

To be perfectly honest, if that poster expressed that opinion in company, especially of dads with toung teenage girls, he could end up In trouble.

It's certainly not a healthy attitude and should not be encouraged in any way.

Sane as the creepy teachers who become involved with their students, they are still only kids and you are the adult, both men and women, creepy

tritium

anewme wrote: »

To be of the opinion that young teenagers use their sexuality to manipulate adult men is not a healthy attitude to have.

Jimmy Saville had many facets to his character, all of them evil and im not saying this poster has all of them but the idea that adult men would be seduced and manipulated by little more than kids is scary and creepy.

To be perfectly honest, if that poster expressed that opinion in company, especially of dads with toung teenage girls, he could end up In trouble.

It's certainly not a healthy attitude and should not be encouraged in any way.

Sane as the creepy teachers who become involved with their students, they are still only kids and you are the adult, both men and women, creepy

No one has at any point said that a fully grown adult taking advantage of a pre adult is anything but creepy. Not even the poster you're referencing suggested that. As i pointed out previously, its actually considered so creepy that we have age of consent laws to reflect that. They also reflect that teenagers, by virtue of not having the lived experience to understand the changes happening to them, often put themselves in bad positions, and the onus is on adults not to abuse that lack of experience.

It is troubling however that we would focus exclusively on teenage girls so much. Teenage boys manifest the same lack of experience in their decisions, except it often appears in the more macho behaviours that certain viewpoints look to demonise at every chance as 'lad culture'. And rather than try to understand and help teenage boys in that stage we have allowed them to be pillored and utterly failed to acknowledge how we as a society are failing them.

On the original point, Im not sure which is worse, a poorly articulated post that held a controversial view or the rush to put the worst possible spin on it fuel some outrage.

B0jangles

tritium wrote: »

No one has at any point said that a fully grown adult taking advantage of a pre adult is anything but creepy. Not even the poster you're referencing suggested that. As i pointed out previously, its actually considered so creepy that we have age of consent laws to reflect that. They also reflect that teenagers, by virtue of not having the lived experience to understand the changes happening to them, often put themselves in bad positions, and the onus is on adults not to abuse that lack of experience.

It is troubling however that we would focus exclusively on teenage girls so much. Teenage boys manifest the same lack of experience in their decisions, except it often appears in the more macho behaviours that certain viewpoints look to demonise at every chance as 'lad culture'. And rather than try to understand and help teenage boys in that stage we have allowed them to be pillored and utterly failed to acknowledge how we as a society are failing them.

On the original point, Im not sure which is worse, a poorly articulated post that held a controversial view or the rush to put the worst possible spin on it fuel some outrage.

Tritium. the OP had about 24 hours to clarify his meaning; he did so to the extent of clarifying that he wasn't talking about actual little kids, (like under the age of ten), he meant young female teenagers. He was very specific about them being young, and them being female.

Every other part of the post was left as it is, so he still maintains that young teenage girls use their sexuality to manipulate adult men.

Your response to that is not to question what he said, not to reject any of what he said; instead you chose to deflect completely to talking about young teenage boys and then to accuse me and others of trying to 'fuel some outrage'.

You chose to circle the wagons and get defensive rather than question his beliefs about young girls. That's pretty disappointing.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, if that poster expressed that opinion in company, especially of dads with toung teenage girls, he could end up In trouble.

It's certainly not a healthy attitude and should not be encouraged in any way.

Sane as the creepy teachers who become involved with their students, they are still only kids and you are the adult, both men and women, creepy

B0jangles wrote: »

Every other part of the post was left as it is, so he still maintains that young teenage girls use their sexuality to manipulate adult men.

I expressed the attitude that the media and other exposure in modern society influence young girls to be more aware of their sexuality. That movies, tv and music encourage young people to be aware of sex. The Internet gives teens access to movies which are far more suggestive of sexual themes, and most teens I know are active in various chat rooms which aren't moderated by adults. I've also encountered young teens in nightclubs getting drunk in groups of all teen girls and boys.

Now, you have latched on to the very young age aspect. I did say young girls and I should have been more specific in what I wrote. But you are the one focusing on 13-14, and having sex.

I did say that young girls learn to manipulate those around them. I did say that media encourages them to be more aware of their sexuality. I did not say they were having sex with those men. You introduced that.

I spoke about the manipulation that girls learn to do from an early age. Any father can attest to how a girl can behave by being cute to get what she wants, whereas a boy is likely to be direct. The girl succeeds and the boy doesn't. Hence my reference to having a sister and knowing what I mean...

Let it go. You're trying to project my post as being extremely dodgy. It wasn't. Yes, I should have been more careful with my wording about ages, but there is nothing terribly awful in what I actually wrote. You can read between the lines and find dirt with almost anything.

anewme

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I expressed the attitude that the media and other exposure in modern society influence young girls to be more aware of their sexuality. That movies, tv and music encourage young people to be aware of sex. The Internet gives teens access to movies which are far more suggestive of sexual themes, and most teens I know are active in various chat rooms which aren't moderated by adults. I've also encountered young teens in nightclubs getting drunk in groups of all teen girls and boys.

Now, you have latched on to the very young age aspect. I did say young girls and I should have been more specific in what I wrote. But you are the one focusing on 13-14, and having sex.

I did say that young girls learn to manipulate those around them. I did say that media encourages them to be more aware of their sexuality. I did not say they were having sex with those men. You introduced that.

I spoke about the manipulation that girls learn to do from an early age. Any father can attest to how a girl can behave by being cute to get what she wants, whereas a boy is likely to be direct. The girl succeeds and the boy doesn't. Hence my reference to having a sister and knowing what I mean...

Let it go. You're trying to project my post as being extremely dodgy. It wasn't. Yes, I should have been more careful with my wording about ages, but there is nothing terribly awful in what I actually wrote. You can read between the lines and find dirt with almost anything.

Can I suggest you read back over your original post.

It was not me who introduced sex. I never mentioned having sex at all.

Your post clearly says:

"Most girls (and I mean girls) know (from practical experience or education) what sex is by early teens."

Early teens is 13-14? Now you are disputing that.


You also said "most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age."

"They also know what they can get from sex."

You are painting young teenage girls in an extremely negative light, making out that poor adult males are being manipulated.

It's a horrible way of looking at people.

These attitudes need to be stamped out.

irishman86

I cant be the only one who thinks this girl needs to choose her friends or people she associates with better
What you mean its easier to just blame all men.....uh ok i guess that..something

irishman86

The comments in the article are hilarious
The one where the guy says he gets groped at work then the girls defend it as a bit of harmless banter, but when men does it it comes with intent to rape
Christ some people really are ****ing stupid

tritium

B0jangles wrote: »

Tritium. the OP had about 24 hours to clarify his meaning; he did so to the extent of clarifying that he wasn't talking about actual little kids, (like under the age of ten), he meant young female teenagers. He was very specific about them being young, and them being female.

Every other part of the post was left as it is, so he still maintains that young teenage girls use their sexuality to manipulate adult men.

Your response to that is not to question what he said, not to reject any of what he said; instead you chose to deflect completely to talking about young teenage boys and then to accuse me and others of trying to 'fuel some outrage'.

You chose to circle the wagons and get defensive rather than question his beliefs about young girls. That's pretty disappointing.

Seriously, you read my post and thats your response? Accuse me of circling the wagons. Really?

Honestly, i think you're just here looking for a fight, so I'm out.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Can I suggest you read back over your original post.

It was not me who introduced sex. I never mentioned having sex at all.

Actually B0jangles did. The first response changed my expression of girls manipulating men to sexually manipulating men.

me: and Honestly, most girls start manipulating adult male friends around them from a relatively young age

B0jangles:So your 'theory' is that female children use sexual manipulation on adults? And you think that other men can see this in action by observing their own sisters?

Your post clearly says: They also know what they can get from sex.

Yup. You don't think all those dramas, movies, and music portraying sexy women benefiting from their appearance doesn't have an effect?

Ahh.. I understand now. Sex. Your only perspective is the act of sex.

You are painting young teenage girls in an extremely negative light, making out that poor adult males are being manipulated.

Poor males? Lol. You said that, not me. I don't see the word manipulation as being a negative word. It's like saying marketing is a bad thing for companies to do.

anewme

tritium wrote: »

Seriously, you read my post and thats your response?

Honestly, i think you're just here looking for a fight, so I'm out.

No one is here looking for a fight.

But it should be acknowledged by all that suggesting young teenage girls know what they can get from sex and as such manipulate adult males is unhealthy.

I am sure the majority of people on this thread, men or women would not have a problem acknowledging this.

If a large majority of men condone or encourage this attitude, we are in bigger trouble than we think.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

No one is here looking for a fight.

But it should be acknowledged by all that suggesting young teenage girls know what they can get from sex and as such manipulate adult males is unhealthy..

I fully acknowledge that it is unhealthy, and I didn't mean to suggest that it was acceptable.

I worded my post badly.

tritium

anewme wrote: »

No one is here looking for a fight.

But it should be acknowledged by all that suggesting young teenage girls know what they can get from sex and as such manipulate adult males is unhealthy.

I am sure the majority of people on this thread, men or women would not have a problem acknowledging this.

If a large majority of men condone or encourage this attitude, we are in bigger trouble than we think.

Completely agree

Im sure theyd also acknowledge that spinning a post to get to that arguement, and the most extreme slant on it, is unhealthy and if that what we have to resort to we're in a pretty bad\sad state

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

I expressed the attitude that the media and other exposure in modern society influence young girls to be more aware of their sexuality. That movies, tv and music encourage young people to be aware of sex. The Internet gives teens access to movies which are far more suggestive of sexual themes, and most teens I know are active in various chat rooms which aren't moderated by adults. I've also encountered young teens in nightclubs getting drunk in groups of all teen girls and boys.

Now, you have latched on to the very young age aspect. I did say young girls and I should have been more specific in what I wrote. But you are the one focusing on 13-14, and having sex.

I did say that young girls learn to manipulate those around them. I did say that media encourages them to be more aware of their sexuality. I did not say they were having sex with those men. You introduced that.

I spoke about the manipulation that girls learn to do from an early age. Any father can attest to how a girl can behave by being cute to get what she wants, whereas a boy is likely to be direct. The girl succeeds and the boy doesn't. Hence my reference to having a sister and knowing what I mean...

Let it go. You're trying to project my post as being extremely dodgy. It wasn't. Yes, I should have been more careful with my wording about ages, but there is nothing terribly awful in what I actually wrote. You can read between the lines and find dirt with almost anything.

Firstly, to the highlighted line, I never said anything like that. Never.

Secondly, from the very first post you linked manipulation, to sexuality, to very young teenage girls. You made the connections.

I called you out on that; the only correction you made was to clarify that you didn't mean really small children, you meant young teenagers, like somehow that was ok?!

I maintain and will always maintain that it is extremely weird and inappropriate to claim that young teenage girls commonly use their sexuality to manipulate adult men. I am amazed that this is apparently a controversial opinion to hold, but you really do learn something new every day.

anewme

tritium wrote: »

Completely agree

Im sure theyd also acknowledge that spinning a post to get to that arguement, and the most extreme slant on it, is unhealthy and if that what we have to resort to we're in a pretty bad\sad state

Just to be clear, the post read that way. They were the words used. No spin.

The poster has acknowledged it, so fair enough.

If someone says something you find offensive or don't understand, then challenge it, tgeres been too much swept under the carpet in the past.

To that poster, apologies I withdraw the Jimmy Saville comment.

B0jangles

tritium wrote: »

Seriously, you read my post and thats your response? Accuse me of circling the wagons. Really?

Honestly, i think you're just here looking for a fight, so I'm out.

No I am not looking for a fight, I am genuinely hoping that the total lack of reaction to the points I rased about klaz's post is based on some personal dislike of the way I post and that the majority of the posters in here do actually think that Klaz's post was weird, they just don't want to agree with me.

The alternative is that the majority of the posters in here who have read this thread either agree with him , or don't care either way. That's much more depressing.

givyjoe

tritium wrote: »

Seriously, you read my post and thats your response? Accuse me of circling the wagons. Really?

Honestly, i think you're just here looking for a fight, so I'm out.

That and itching to be outraged by some 'evil' men.

B0jangles

givyjoe wrote: »

That and itching to be outraged by some 'evil' men.

To be perfectly honest I thought better of the men of this subforum, I really did. I don't think anyone in here is 'evil' nor an I itching to be outraged.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

To be perfectly honest I thought better of the men of this subforum, I really did. .

Whereas I'm quite impressed that the men and women of this forum resisted the urge to be outraged.

Thank you. I appreciate the patience and the understanding that we're all allowed to make mistakes sometimes.

Saruhashi

Tigger wrote: »

i thought he ment teens as well but didnt wanna say

Don't worry. B0jangles is a mind reader and can tell you exactly what yourself and posters are thinking.

Invariably, it will be the least charitable interpretation of your words. Of course.

It's a unique talent.