Men (Us too), all (at least most) guilty for sexual harassment

Sleepy

Honestly, if I were a bisexual teenager, I think I'd swear off women and choose to live as a gay man at this stage. Teenage girls can be extremely impressionable and campaigns like this are actively encouraging them to make up false allegations of harrassment in order to fit in with the "cool" crowd...

TBH, whomever came up with the hashtag is clearly smarter than your average feminist. It's brilliantly designed to go viral: two simple words, totalling 5 letters that allow you to be part of the gang while paiting yourself as a victim (the ultimate sacred cow in modern feminism) and making a virtue of thinking the bad behaviour of a minority of men is (shock horror) unacceptable!

johnnyskeleton

EPAndlee wrote: »

You don't know my friends and work colleagues so

They talk about actually raping a woman? Then you shoulf report them to the gardai. Of course, I dont believe you, but if this did happen it would be awful.

RabbleRouser2k

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, if I were a bisexual teenager, I think I'd swear off women and choose to live as a gay man at this stage. Teenage girls can be extremely impressionable and campaigns like this are actively encouraging them to make up false allegations of harrassment in order to fit in with the "cool" crowd..

https://twitter.com/shonadotie

'Being a girl is hard, y'all'... Yes, that's from their twitter bio.

It rings of Laci Green-when she herself started bullying other women, and making false strikes on their channel.

Try being a male, where you're expendable-whereas if you're a female, you're 'sacred'.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Best of luck to them. That website seems to be pro women. I'm all for that.

As for the male version. www.wordpress.com Go for it!

Sarcasm-the lowest form of humour. :rolleyes:

It's also got a section dedicated to 'Repeal the 8th'...and a 'why is my imaginary friend picking on me'. The latter is about Mental Health.

The actual pledge:

I have a beautiful soul, a brilliant mind, and an open heart.

I acknowledge that I am an ever-growing and always-learning work in progress.

I own my flaws, but I will succeed in spite of, and maybe because of, my weaknesses. They do not define me.

I promise to lift up other girls, to have their backs, to appreciate & celebrate our differences and to encourage them to always be themselves.

I will always be myself.

I promise to be kind, not just to others, but also to myself.

I will use my voice in a positive way and be a positive influence in this world.

I am enough.

The promise to 'lift up girls'-is that by putting down boys?
I have serious questions about this site.

Avatar MIA

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Sarcasm-the lowest form of humour.

Possibly, if you find any let us know (apart from this post!)

anewme

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, if I were a bisexual teenager, I think I'd swear off women and choose to live as a gay man at this stage. Teenage girls can be extremely impressionable and campaigns like this are actively encouraging them to make up false allegations of harrassment in order to fit in with the "cool" crowd...

TBH, whomever came up with the hashtag is clearly smarter than your average feminist. It's brilliantly designed to go viral: two simple words, totalling 5 letters that allow you to be part of the gang while paiting yourself as a victim (the ultimate sacred cow in modern feminism) and making a virtue of thinking the bad behaviour of a minority of men is (shock horror) unacceptable!

Is this a thread about teenagers?

Sleepy

I tend to think that most fully grown adults are too sensible for this BS. Given the medium of this propoganda, I suspect impressionable teenagers are the target.

RabbleRouser2k

Sleepy wrote: »

I tend to think that most fully grown adults are too sensible for this BS. Given the medium of this propoganda, I suspect impressionable teenagers are the target.

Yes, the site is aimed at teenagers. It's also very hetero-would rather there was some piece of advice for those struggling with their sexuality. There's some articles, but for friends of mine who have struggled with their sexuality, from a young age, it would help better if there was more out there.

http://www.shona.ie/dude-has-opinion-about-women-in-sport-yawn/

But titles like 'Dude has opinion about women in sport… Yawn' shows which side of the coin this sites falls on. It makes some decent points, and then it gets bitter. There's a way to challenge opinions, and then there isn't. And this is the latter.

anewme

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yes, the site is aimed at teenagers. It's also very hetero-would rather there was some piece of advice for those struggling with their sexuality. There's some articles, but for friends of mine who have struggled with their sexuality, from a young age, it would help better if there was more out there.

http://www.shona.ie/dude-has-opinion-about-women-in-sport-yawn/

But titles like 'Dude has opinion about women in sport… Yawn' shows which side of the coin this sites falls on. It makes some decent points, and then it gets bitter. There's a way to challenge opinions, and then there isn't. And this is the latter.

Did you not like this comment earlier on in the thread?

"All woman are manipulative, some are just crap at it. The problem is they want to win all the time and when they don't get their own way its down to man being horrible sexist pigs."

That bitter hateful attitude is not healthy , is it? Are you also a teenager?

Why would you challenge Shona. Ie as bitter when you support the view all women are manipulative.

They are not and you are wrong for supporting that view.

It's a bit rich then to criticise Shona.ie as bitter?

RabbleRouser2k

anewme wrote: »

Did you not like this comment earlier on in the thread?

"All woman are manipulative, some are just crap at it. The problem is they want to win all the time and when they don't get their own way its down to man being horrible sexist pigs."

That bitter hateful attitude is not healthy , is it? Are you also a teenager?

Why would you challenge Shona. Ie as bitter when you support the view all women are manipulative.

They are not and you are wrong for supporting that view.

It's a bit rich then to criticise Shona.ie as bitter?

Did I? Dang.
Can you please point me to that post, so I can unlike it-I sometimes peruse threads, see a sentence or two I agree with and then click like. I must have missed that. Depends on the night I read it.

I don't support that view-I definitely need to see that post again.

But my criticism of Shona.ie I stand by.

anewme

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Did I? Dang.
Can you please point me to that post, so I can unlike it-I sometimes peruse threads, see a sentence or two I agree with and then click like. I must have missed that. Depends on the night I read it.

I don't support that view-I definitely need to see that post again.

But my criticism of Shona.ie I stand by.

I am sure you will be find it yourself. It's near the front.

There's only two sentences in total so it was either of these you agree with, or both.

"All woman are manipulative, some are just crap at it.

The problem is they want to win all the time and when they don't get their own way its down to man being horrible sexist pigs."

Both are very bitter sentences, so while it's fair enough you are critical of Shona.ie, it's a bit hypocritical and two faced.

If you are bitter or not depending on the night you read something, , then you hardly qualify to criticise Shona.ie. if you bend that much with the wind, you may even end up writing for them tomorrow.

Bit rich to mention challenging opinions, when you support opinions like that.

RabbleRouser2k

anewme wrote: »

I am sure you will be find it yourself. It's near the front.

There's only two sentences in total so it was either of these you agree with, or both.

"All woman are manipulative, some are just crap at it.

The problem is they want to win all the time and when they don't get their own way its down to man being horrible sexist pigs."

Both are very bitter sentences, so while it's fair enough you are critical of Shona.ie, it's a bit hypocritical and two faced.

If you are bitter or not depending on the night you read something, , then you hardly qualify to criticise Shona.ie. if you bend that much with the wind, you may even end up writing for them tomorrow.

Bit rich to mention challenging opinions, when you support opinions like that.

Thanks for alerting me to that. I've amended that. I can be bitter about some things, but that was a complete misstep and misclick-apologies.

I don't bend that much with the wind-I take opinions on board, I try to better myself, for sure. But I'm not set in stone. To quote Bruce Lee, I have to be like water.

My bitterness tends to fluctuate-one night it's cos I'm smothered with a headcold. The other it could be just things being cruddy that day.
I doubt I'd end up writing for them-I'm male.

I like to have my opinions challenged-like now. It shows me I need to better myself. That's why I find these websites so frustrating. It professes the 'one opinion' and if you do not concur, you're wrong.

El_Duderino 09

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

No one swaps stories about actually raping or sexually assaulting women and laughing along to that either. Its inconcievable that you would even think that men do that.

Nobody called it rape. The stories were, as I said, about pulling birds who were really smashed. Also tag teaming some women who were so drunk, they didn’t realise the lads had switched. They didn’t consider it rape. Within the uni rugby team group, it was top banter.

There was one of the lads who had sex with women on the sports nights out and rarely embered it. Hed look at his clothes in the morning and see if the looked like he’d been shagging in an alley. Then he’d go about figuring out who he’d had sex with. Funny enough we joked that he’d been raped, but nobody thought it was seriously rape.

RabbleRouser2k

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I have a beautiful soul, a brilliant mind, and an open heart.

I acknowledge that I am an ever-growing and always-learning work in progress.

I own my flaws, but I will succeed in spite of, and maybe because of, my weaknesses. They do not define me.

I promise to lift up other girls, to have their backs, to appreciate & celebrate our differences and to encourage them to always be themselves.

I will always be myself.

I promise to be kind, not just to others, but also to myself.

I will use my voice in a positive way and be a positive influence in this world.

I am enough.

I don't see anything directed towards boys there. Nothing wrong with a motivational piece for girls.

I understand that you have serious questions about the site. I went through it too, and it's biased. But honestly, I have seen extremely few sites which presented anything close to equality for the genders and promoting better living for both.

These days you get a few sites for men and loads for women. The ball is in their court since they still have the attention of the public/& government. If it ever swings towards men, women will likely be justified in saying that there'll be loads of sites for men.

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nobody called it rape. The stories were, as I said, about pulling birds who were really smashed. Also tag teaming some women who were so drunk, they didn’t realise the lads had switched. They didn’t consider it rape. Within the uni rugby team group, it was top banter.

There was one of the lads who had sex with women on the sports nights out and rarely embered it. Hed look at his clothes in the morning and see if the looked like he’d been shagging in an alley. Then he’d go about figuring out who he’d had sex with. Funny enough we joked that he’d been raped, but nobody thought it was seriously rape.

If he was too drunk to be able to consent surely it was rape though? As per for example the Ched Evans case in the UK shouldnt cases like this be actively prosecuted by the state regardless of whether the person makes a complaint?

El_Duderino 09

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There is a difference in that men don’t seem to be willing to actually say that they have a problem
With being groped.

I think if you actually paid attention you would see that they are not saying that they dont have a problem with it (because otherwise why would they mention it at all) but rather society and their own internalised mysandry makes them feel like they have to shrug it off as not being a big deal.

Whatever the reason, I do think that men should be willing to stand up and say they expect their genitals to be unmolested by strangers.

I’m willing to say it I expect not to have my genitals groped by strangers uninvited. Hen groups are notorious for it. They’re gross. I’d support a campaign to raise awareness of how gross hens can be and how out of order it is to grope strangers. That would put me in the minority, I suspect.

I actually thought it was more to do with men thinking that the masculine thing would be to enjoy being felt up by strangers and not complain about it as it means they’re attractive to the grouper. Like the way some men and women think it’s a complement to wolf whistle at people in the street. It hadn’t occurred to me that it would be ‘internalised mysandry ‘

The term ‘internalised mysandry’ is an interesting one. So you think it’s widespread? What other areas do you see internalised mysandry?

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote: »

If he was too drunk to be able to consent surely it was rape though? As per for example the Ched Evans case in the UK shouldnt cases like this be actively prosecuted by the state regardless of whether the person makes a complaint?

In my experience he was too drunk to consent to anything. There were plenty of jokes about him being raped but not seriously. On reflection I’d say it was actually rape. How else could it really be described?

El_Duderino 09

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

https://twitter.com/shonadotie

'Being a girl is hard, y'all'... Yes, that's from their twitter bio.

Try being a male, where you're expendable-whereas if you're a female, you're 'sacred'.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Best of luck to them. That website seems to be pro women. I'm all for that.

As for the male version. www.wordpress.com Go for it!

The actual pledge:

I have a beautiful soul, a brilliant mind, and an open heart.

I acknowledge that I am an ever-growing and always-learning work in progress.

I own my flaws, but I will succeed in spite of, and maybe because of, my weaknesses. They do not define me.

I promise to lift up other girls, to have their backs, to appreciate & celebrate our differences and to encourage them to always be themselves.

I will always be myself.

I promise to be kind, not just to others, but also to myself.

I will use my voice in a positive way and be a positive influence in this world.

I am enough.

The promise to 'lift up girls'-is that by putting down boys?
I have serious questions about this site.

Jesus that’s bordering on precious. Standing up for each other is something that I see as lacking in the men’s movement. It’s not surprising that there would be such skepticism about women standing up for each other.

That pledge is harmless. How can you have any problem with other people doing something to help themselves. I’d be furious if someone had a problem with men doing something about men’s mental health. You’re out of order.

pilly

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nobody called it rape. The stories were, as I said, about pulling birds who were really smashed. Also tag teaming some women who were so drunk, they didn’t realise the lads had switched. They didn’t consider it rape. Within the uni rugby team group, it was top banter.

There was one of the lads who had sex with women on the sports nights out and rarely embered it. Hed look at his clothes in the morning and see if the looked like he’d been shagging in an alley. Then he’d go about figuring out who he’d had sex with. Funny enough we joked that he’d been raped, but nobody thought it was seriously rape.

tritium wrote: »

If he was too drunk to be able to consent surely it was rape though? As per for example the Ched Evans case in the UK shouldnt cases like this be actively prosecuted by the state regardless of whether the person makes a complaint?

The one thing you pulled out of that post was that the man was raped??

No mention of the women being tag teamed?

Is it any wonder there's people accusing all men of being complicit?

This is banter? It has to be one of the most shocking things I've read yet.

El_Duderino 09

EPAndlee wrote:

You don't know my friends and work colleagues so

How do they talk about it? Is it along the lines of 'so I chased a woman down the street and raped her', or more along lines of having sex with a woman who was drunk or something else where the lines are blurred?

tritium

pilly wrote: »

The one thing you pulled out of that post was that the man was raped??

No mention of the women being tag teamed?

Is it any wonder there's people accusing all men of being complicit?

This is banter? It has to be one of the most shocking things I've read yet.

Pull the outrage pole in mate. I asked a question based on how the post was phrased, specifically that none of them considered it rape at the time.

I'm assuming you dont disagree he was raped here, or indeed that rape is serious regardless of the type or gender of person the victim is?

Pat Mustard

EPAndlee wrote: »

You don't know my friends and work colleagues so

These guys?

sevennine1

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Best of luck to them. That website seems to be pro women. I'm all for that.

As for the male version. Go for it!

I know I'm going to regret getting into this but I wanted to say thanks. This is so frustrating. I am the founder of this project and I set it up in the name of my sister who is very badly brain damaged. It was set up for girls because, being a girl myself, I can relate to girls. Pro women is not anti men, I have two sons myself. I work a full time job, raise my kids and do this work for no profit in my own time taking unpaid leave. Comments like this put people who are trying to do good in this world off, and then who wins? There are only so many hours in the day which is why at the moment I am working with girls. There is nothing stopping anyone else from starting something for the other half of the population. Have a nice day x

El_Duderino 09

sevennine1 wrote:

I know I'm going to regret getting into this but I wanted to say thanks. This is so frustrating. I am the founder of this project and I set it up in the name of my sister who is very badly brain damaged. It was set up for girls because, being a girl myself, I can relate to girls. Pro women is not anti men, I have two sons myself. I work a full time job, raise my kids and do this work for no profit in my own time taking unpaid leave. Comments like this put people who are trying to do good in this world off, and then who wins? There are only so many hours in the day which is why at the moment I am working with girls. There is nothing stopping anyone else from starting something for the other half of the population. Have a nice day x

Fair play sevennine1. I'd love to see a similar service for boys. I imagine being a teenage girl is hard because I remember being a teenage boy and it was hard at times. I imagine they're hard for different reasons, some of which are specific to boys and girls. So I suppose it makes sense to focus on one or the other. Keep up the good work.

sevennine1

Thank you! Just sticking up for myself is all x

Wibbs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I imagine they're hard for different reasons, some of which are specific to boys and girls.

Indeed. Whether it's nature or nurture(IMHO a little of both, but nature plays a part in the nurture) men and women on average tend towards different coping mechanisms and approaches to the world(with plenty of overlap of course). TBH thinking back to when I was a teenaged bloke reading the aforementioned site for girls/women would have had me wondering WTF? and I would have wet myself laughing at such a pledge. Even today there would be almost nothing in it that would resonate with me, though I can see why it would resonate with more women/girls.

My concern and not just with that site, but generally, is the increase of a sense of victimhood across the board, with both men and women. Though women are more encouraged to this end. EG thread on Boards written by women about sexism they've encountered = Fair play!. Thread on Boards written by men about sexism they've encountered = bunch of whingers/misogynists. That's certainly reflected in the wider world, especially online.

I suspect that's one reason why a similar service for boys/men would be more difficult to frame. Of late the approaches towards boys/men have fallen between quite polarised camps. On one side and the more mainstream, acceptable from the more "feminist" angle, from the other is the more "red pill" angle(if anything I would suggest that latter is an over reaction to the formers rise, particularly in the US from whence it spread). Neither are healthy IMO and both tend towards echo chamber and also tend to be whinge fests.

goose2005

Pat Mustard wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/not-men-guilty-violence-sexism-men-have-responsibility-stop/

The Telegraph is up to this collective responsibility carry-on as well. There is an article on how men are responsible for various misdeeds carried out by other men.

I must say that it is interesting how men are supposed to bear collective responsibility for criminals but there is a deafening silence on the how women evade the exact same (supposed) responsibility. These hacks seem to think that men have moral agency for criminals but women do not. It would be interesting to see an attempt at rational explanation but I won't hold my breath.

Moreover, if one suggests that (say) ethnic minorities bear "collective responsibility" for crime rates or that Muslims bear "collective responsibility" for terrorism you would (rightly) get called a bigot

El_Duderino 09

Wibbs wrote:

Indeed. [...]men and women on average tend towards different coping mechanisms and approaches to the world(with plenty of overlap of course). TBH thinking back to when I was a teenaged bloke reading the aforementioned site for girls/women would have had me wondering WTF? and I would have wet myself laughing at such a pledge. Even today there would be almost nothing in it that would resonate with me, though I can see why it would resonate with more women/girls.

The pledge would probably mean nothing to 8/10 girls. If it resonates with 2/10 who read the site, that's probably a great hit rate. People are different and it would take different approaches to reach different people. So while you might well have wet yourself laughing at a similar approach to reach boys too, it still might be well worthwhile pursuing if it does resonate with some boys.

Wibbs wrote:

My concern and not just with that site, but generally, is the increase of a sense of victimhood across the board, with both men and women. Though women are more encouraged to this end. EG thread on Boards written by women about sexism they've encountered = Fair play!. Thread on Boards written by men about sexism they've encountered = bunch of whingers/misogynists. That's certainly reflected in the wider world, especially online.

I didn't see the site as encouraging victimhood. It highlights some topics that affect nearly everyone as a teenager anxiety, social pressure, body image, exam pressure, family dynamics, sexuality. It says they share their stories to offer support and let each other know that they are not alone and their difficulties are common to lots of people. I see that as wholely positive. What do you see as victimhood?

My Mrs set up a group in a town near her home. It was for girls of secondary school age and it was designed to get them to share their experience of the common difficulties for teenagers. They had activities and had people to come in and teach them skills like nutrition, healthy cooking and and skincare because their feedback was that the were concerned about body image but they didn't have the skills to take control of those things. They had discussions about things like peer pressures around sex drugs etc. Similar to a Men's Shed in some ways. It worked on mental and physical side of the issues and helped the girls make informed decisions. The group won a national award since.

It was attended by a small no. of girls of the total in secondary school in the town. Maybe 2% attended regularly. I would say it was completely worthwhile and did a lot of good for the girls who it resonated with.

Wibbs wrote:

I suspect that's one reason why a similar service for boys/men would be more difficult to frame.

I doubt it would be much more difficult to frame a service for boys or girls. It depends on what you expect it to achieve. Any single approach is only likely to interest a small portion of the population.

The girls group above, wasn't sexist against men, it was set up in her spare time, one night a week. Anyone would have been free to set up a different type of girls group of boys groups. I'd support anyone who goes out of their way to support people and I don't think you can expect any single approach to reach a lot of people.

RabbleRouser2k

goose2005 wrote: »

Moreover, if one suggests that (say) ethnic minorities bear "collective responsibility" for crime rates or that Muslims bear "collective responsibility" for terrorism you would (rightly) get called a bigot

https://twitter.com/JessieNYC/status/923194725062070273

This was an actual tweet sent out by a professor-by having children and being white, you're part of the problem.
She even blames the marriage equality movement(ya know, gay rights and same sex marriage) for part of the problem as well. Like, wow, just read the thread.
And she's white. I only mention that because it's like 'do you hate yourself-are you part of the problem?'.

El_Duderino 09

In response to goose 2005's post about Muslims and their collective responsibility. I'd say Muslims have an additional responsibility because they could see or hear someone down the cultural centre or whatever,who is leaning towards extremism. The police in the UK are always working with Muslims to encourage people to report extremists. I'm not likely to ever hear Muslims plotting so while I might have the same responsibilities to report extremists, I'm much less likely to ever need to meet that responsibility.

I don't think all !Muslims are responsible for terrorism they haven't committed but they do have a responsibility to be wary of extremists. It's similar to how Irish people might have known about an IRA group in their area. If that group committed an act of terrorism, the civilian who knew about them isn't to blame for the terrorism committed by someone else, but surely they failed to meet their responsibility to tell the authorities about

Pat Mustard

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's similar to how Irish people might have known about an IRA group in their area. If that group committed

What a massive load of horse****

Jesus, Christ.

El_Duderino 09

Pat Mustard wrote:

What a massive load of horse****

Oked dokey. The usual infective with the usual absence of argument. I don't know what do with that. I could call it animal excrement, or I could ask you what you actually mean.

All Muslims are responsible for Islamic terrorists only to the same extent that all Irish people are responsible for Irish terrorists. I'm not sure why you find it so outrageous.

What do you actually mean?

Pat Mustard

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't think all !Muslims are responsible for terrorism they haven't committed but they do have a responsibility to be wary of extremists.

On basis of same/similar religion/culture, they have a "responsibility to be wary of extremists"?

So if I convert and become a muslim, I assume this "responsibility", do I?

El_Duderino 09

Pat Mustard wrote:

So if I convert and become a muslim, I assume this "responsibility", do I?

It would depend. If you're hanging out down the Islamic cultural centre, you're more likely to come across some extremists then if you don't go down the cultural centre. That's why the police work with Muslims and their cultural centres to get them to report people who are talking about doing something mental. They get loads of tip-offs through that route.

I have the same responsibility to report extremists but I'm not really likely to ever hear anyone talking about it.

So to answer your question, the act of becoming a Muslim wouldn't confer you with the responsibility but if you're big into the community, then obviously you have a responsibility to keep an ear out for extremists and report them.

I hope that helps.

silverharp

Pat Mustard wrote: »

On basis of same/similar religion/culture, they have a "responsibility to be wary of extremists"?

So if I convert and become a muslim, I assume this "responsibility", do I?

mostly not, for example being Irish isnt an ideology whereas the IRA is based on particular set of beliefs so just being irish didnt necessarily connect one to the ira. however if you converted to Islam you have signed up to "what would Mohammed do" and part of that is Jihad involving violence is potentially acceptable. Isis at the end of the day where a bunch of fanatics that wanted to follow the quran to the letter.

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would depend. If you're hanging out down the Islamic cultural centre, you're more likely to come across some extremists then if you don't go down the cultural centre. That's why the police work with Muslims and their cultural centres to get them to report people who are talking about doing something mental. They get loads of tip-offs through that route.

I have the same responsibility to report extremists but I'm not really likely to ever hear anyone talking about it.

So to answer your question, the act of becoming a Muslim wouldn't confer you with the responsibility but if you're big into the community, then obviously you have a responsibility to keep an ear out for extremists and report them.

I hope that helps.

The bolded bit is the flaw in the arguement (which strangely youve actually identifed yourself earlier in the post). Being part of a community may increase the likelihood you might hear something but it doesnt (and can't)confer any extra responsibility. Otherwise I become my brothers keeper while someone else who didn't pay basic attention can wash their hands when bad things happen

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote:

The bolded bit is the flaw in the arguement (which strangely youve actually identifed yourself earlier in the post). Being part of a community may increase the likelihood you might hear something but it doesnt (and can't)confer any extra responsibility. Otherwise I become my brothers keeper while someone else who didn't pay basic attention can wash their hands when bad things happen

If you didn't know anything about it then you can wash your hands of it. If you did know something, then you have some responsibility. Surely we can agree on that.

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you didn't know anything about it then you can wash your hands of it. If you did know something, then you have some responsibility. Surely we can agree on that.

Of course, thats exactly the point. You may have more opportunity to see something but the responsibility falls on everyone to the same degree. Trying to shame some group while not acknowledging the collective nature of anyresponsibility is just nonsense

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote: »

Of course, thats exactly the point. You may have more opportunity to see something but the responsibility falls on everyone to the same degree. Trying to shame some group while not acknowledging the collective nature of anyresponsibility is just nonsense

Ok. So if for example one of your mates was chatting and said he had sex with a woman who was very drunk, or you saw your mate slap a stranger’s arse, then are you responsible for at least challenging them on their behaviour?

the_syco

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's similar to how Irish people might have known about an IRA group in their area.

If you grassed on the 'RA, you either "got disappeared", or your car gets boobytrapped with a pipebomb.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. So if for example one of your mates was chatting and said he had sex with a woman who was very drunk

If they were also as drunk as the woman, who gets blamed?

Never wrestle with pigs

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JessieNYC/status/923194725062070273

This was an actual tweet sent out by a professor-by having children and being white, you're part of the problem.
She even blames the marriage equality movement(ya know, gay rights and same sex marriage) for part of the problem as well. Like, wow, just read the thread.
And she's white. I only mention that because it's like 'do you hate yourself-are you part of the problem?'.

Daddy issues

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. So if for example one of your mates was chatting and said he had sex with a woman who was very drunk, or you saw your mate slap a stranger’s arse, then are you responsible for at least challenging them on their behaviour?

If you agree thats unacceptable ( as i would assuming were talking about where only one party is drunk and it was taking advantage of someone for example) then yes. However you have the same responsibility to do that as, for example, their mother, sister or female colleagues who become aware if it or overhear the conversation. Maybe its the circles i move in but its never really been something my friends engage in and I've generally assumed it rarer than some would indicate.

Thats surely true of any bad behaviour though? Why is there a focus on shaming males for not policing bad behaviour by other males but ignoring anything the rest of the population does or doesnt do?

El_Duderino 09

the_syco wrote:

If you grassed on the 'RA, you either "got disappeared", or your car gets boobytrapped with a pipebomb.

Agreed. That's a mitigating circumstance which runs against the assumed responsibility. If fulfilling your responsibilities would likely lead to your death, then you have to take that into account.

the_syco wrote:

If they were also as drunk as the woman, who gets blamed?

Both failed to be responsible. So I'd say neither is to blame.

The quote you used was from this paragraph below, which was actually a question. Since I answered your question, would you answer the question? Thanks

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

Ok. So if for example one of your mates was chatting and said he had sex with a woman who was very drunk, or you saw your mate slap a stranger’s arse, then are you responsible for at least challenging them on their behaviour?

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote:

If you agree thats unacceptable ( as i would assuming were talking about where only one party is drunk and it was taking advantage of someone for example) then yes. However you have the same responsibility to do that as, for example, their mother, sister or female colleagues who become aware if it or overhear the conversation. Maybe its the circles i move in but its never really been something my friends engage in and I've generally assumed it rarer than some would indicate.

Yes. All those people are equally responsible. If someone tells their mam about those things, then obviously she should challenge that behaviour.

I don't know how prevalent it is now either. I came across it when I went back to uni in my mid-late 20s. It was completely built into the culture of the uni rugby team and the weekly sports social nights.

tritium wrote:

Thats surely true of any bad behaviour though? Why is there a focus on shaming males for not policing bad behaviour by other males but ignoring anything the rest of the population does or doesnt do?

Yes it is true of any behaviour. I'm speaking specifically about peers' responsibility for the culture of their group. So I'm not talking about the abstract idea that you're responsible for peopel you've never met, but it is your responsibility to challenge your mate if you saw them slap a strangers arse or they told you about having sex with a stranger who was very drunk.

tritium

Oddly i never saw it on uni social nights back in the late 90s. Some of the girls i knew were far more open about chasing a shag. I didnt mix with the rugby crowd though i didnt see it in the sports i was involved in - i guess different strokes etc.

I do wonder though, to broaden this out, how many women have been on hen nights where some of the party did similar things (id hazard a large percentage). How many of those women actually called their friends on that behaviour? And if challenged now how many would dismiss it as harmless fun?

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote:

Oddly i never saw it on uni social nights back in the late 90s. Some of the girls i knew were far more open about chasing a shag. I didnt mix with the rugby crowd though i didnt see it in the sports i was involved in - i guess different strokes etc.

Ok. To broaden it out beyond your personal experience, do you accept that if your mate did that stuff, it would be your responsibility to at least challenge them on it (e.g. slapping a strangers arse or having sex with someone whose very drunk.)

tritium wrote:

I do wonder though, to broaden this out, how many women have been on hen nights where some of the party did similar things (id hazard a large percentage). How many of those women actually called their friends on that behaviour? And if challenged now how many would dismiss it as harmless fun?

There seems to be a lot of dancing around the crux of the issue here. Of course the same responsibility applies to those women on hens. There's another thread where men have told their experience of women on hens being pests.

I'm still not sure if you actually think that level of responsibility applies to men or women. I'm trying to be sure to show all my cards here and it seems that others are being very coy with what they actually think. So to be blunt, what is your actual position?

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. To broaden it out beyond your personal experience, do you accept that if your mate did that stuff, it would be your responsibility to at least challenge them on it (e.g. slapping a strangers arse or having sex with someone whose very drunk.)

I think youll find i actually answered youre question a few posts back. Not sure if you didnt read it or are just looking to stir it.....

There seems to be a lot of dancing around the crux of the issue here. Of course the same responsibility applies to those women on hens. There's another thread where men have told their experience of women on hens being pests.

I'm still not sure if you actually think that level of responsibility applies to men or women. I'm trying to be sure to show all my cards here and it seems that others are being very coy with what they actually think. So to be blunt, what is your actual position?

As i said, answered already. Not really sure how you missed it.....

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote:

I think youll find i actually answered youre question a few posts back. Not sure if you didnt read it or are just looking to stir it.....

Looking to stir what? It's a discussion so I was asking you to clarify your position. There's no stirring in that.

tritium wrote:

If you agree thats unacceptable ( as i would assuming were talking about where only one party is drunk and it was taking advantage of someone for example) then yes. However you have the same responsibility to do that as, for example, their mother, sister or female colleagues who become aware if it or overhear the conversation. Maybe its the circles i move in but its never really been something my friends engage in and I've generally assumed it rarer than some would indicate.

I saw this but it looks like you're minimising the responsibility do I wanted you to clarify your position. Simple as that.

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Looking to stir what? It's a discussion so I was asking you to clarify your position. There's no stirring in that.


I saw this but it looks like you're minimising the responsibility do I wanted you to clarify your position. Simple as that.

Where do i minimise anything there? If only party is drunk and the other takes advantage thats unacceptable. Seems pretty clear from what I wrote.

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote:

Where do i minimise anything there? If only party is drunk and the other takes advantage thats unacceptable. Seems pretty clear from what I wrote.

Ok. We're in agreement on that. What the other case I mentioned in the paragraph? A lad see a friend slap a strangers arse or something similar. Does he have any responsibility to challenge the friend?

JamboMac

o1s1n wrote: »

I've heard this argument before and it's far too vague.

It would depend entirely on the act.

An attractive guy winking at someone? Might go down better than an unattractive guy doing the same.

An attractive guy grabbing you inappropriately? I doubt most would be happy with this.

How would this have gone down if he was a 40 year old ugly bloke, this guy seems to have gotten away with it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/love-islands-muggy-mikes-teen-11398170