Home Generator

quietsailor

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

This makes no sense ...

its impossible to run an extension cable through the window and unplug all the plugs from the wall and plug them into the generator. The extension cable will most likely have a few sockets only in it

There wont be any need either to turn off everything in the house as only the stuff you need will be plugged into the extension lead (s) .

It works the exact opposite way of this.... You plug in 1 thing at a time and make sure it can take the load. you dont plug in everything to the generator , turn them all off and then starting them all on :-)

its impossible to run an extension cable through the window
I must a demi god then :eek: because that's what I did on Thursday :P I had a short extension lead from the generator that was on the path outside the window coming in the window onto the kitchen countertop, then I plugged everything into that.


There wont be any need either to turn off everything in the house as only the stuff you need will be plugged into the extension lead (s) .
- remember a boiler won't have a plug and socket arrangement so you will have to unwire it at the on/off switch and then wire on a plug, THEN plug it into the extension lead. (if you want heat throughout the house and not just in a room with a fire)
A well pump won't have a plug on it either - so again, unwire, wire on a plug, plug into the extension lead.
Now what happens if the power comes back on while you wiring these? you get an electric shock! That's why you would turn off the power at your fuseboard/ meter box.

EDIT: it's a good idea to have the main fuse pulled anyway as when the mains comes back you want to be there to see everything starts up properly.

And I know I'm opening a can of worms here but........This is Ireland, I've seen hinky **** wired in houses - lights fed off socket circuits. Boiler controls wired off one circuit and the valves it controls off another circuit. If by some chance there is a connection you don't know about crossing from a load back into another circuit attaching a generator to the load will back feed electricity into the fuseboard - that sends electricity out into the mains. That would be the "one in a million" ****up but it will hurt or kill someone so make sure you know that anything you plug into a generator is not back feeding ---- or just take out the main fuse!

It works the exact opposite way of this.... You plug in 1 thing at a time and make sure it can take the load. you dont plug in everything to the generator , turn them all off and then starting them all on :-)
Yep. we're talking about the same thing - these generators are small and you can overlad them VERY easily - so start/plug in/turn on one item at a time.

I've posted something in another post since you wrote what I quoted - I worked with generators years ago and am comfortable around electricity, not everyone is so yes your right only use items that can be unplugged and plugged. Don't go at wiring if your not comfortable with the SAFETY ASPECTS. Anyone can wire a plug but if you're inside an electrical socket when the power comes bak you can get a shock.

99nsr125

That's exactly what I do

Have a Kipor Digital 2.6kva bought new for 500 several years ago

Use the gas to cook and range for base load heat

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

I am not plugging a generator into the grid supply. I will be running the generator in a shed, running an extension lead from the generator into the house and plugging stuff like tv etc into the extension lead sockets

this is what i said in my very first post

quietsailor

If people are serious about generators for any future storms the best thing you can do is reduce your electrical usage;

1. Change one shower from an electric shower to a shower that takes water from the copper hot tank in the hotpress and uses gravity from the attic to make the shower work - no electricity required to run it.
2. Look at some way of wiring the boiler and well pump so they can be easily connected to a generator SAFELY. This gets you cold water in the taps, toilets; potable water in the taps, hot water.
3. Change your electric oven and hob to gas or at least buy in a camping stove that runs on gas

knipex

It doesnt have to be complicated.

I have a small 3kw generator. run a long extension lead into the house. Plug in freezer tv and a few lamps. I installed one of those small din rail mounted change over switches in a small box supplying boiler and pump so flick that over and plug in central heating.

its not pretty but during a powercut I can run a few lights top off the freezer for a few hours run the heating watch tv and charge phones kids toys etc..

exaisle

my3cents wrote: »

How exactly are you going to be careless plugging in and unplugging an appliance?

Are you likely to kill yourself next time you plug your freezer in? Careful its a dangerous world out there when you get out from behind that keyboard.

Graveyards are full of mean smartar$es who were too mean to spend a few quid extra to do a job right.

When you're dealing with mains voltages, it's safety first every time.

All it takes is a moment of carelessness on the part of kids, or a lack of concentration on the part of an adult.
Running extension cables willy nilly around a house with kids in it is simply not good enough.
What value do you place on the safety of your family???
Please don't be a skinflint....spend the extra fifty quid or so that will allow you to do the job properly and safely.

gman2k

Pete67 wrote:

Just a suggestion, start the generator and run it on load once a month or so, and drain the carburettor float bowl when you are finished. Many generators are left sitting in the corner of a shed for months or years and then unsurprisingly refuse to start when needed.

Mine was sitting up 7.5 years! Had never been started. Poured some petrol in, started on second pull of the cord!

my3cents

gman2k wrote: »

Mine was sitting up 7.5 years! Had never been started. Poured some petrol in, started on second pull of the cord!

Might depend on the engine. I've an old Honda and a Yanmar that I 99% sure would perform as well but I've others I'm not so sure.

Disagree with his comments about solar PV. I have data to refute his opinion but not really the issue at hand.

my3cents

knipex wrote: »

It doesnt have to be complicated.

I have a small 3kw generator. run a long extension lead into the house. Plug in freezer tv and a few lamps. I installed one of those small din rail mounted change over switches in a small box supplying boiler and pump so flick that over and plug in central heating.

its not pretty but during a powercut I can run a few lights top off the freezer for a few hours run the heating watch tv and charge phones kids toys etc..

I'm not totally convinced that you have to have your boiler hard wired? In the UK I had gas central heating and it was installed with a 13 amp plug for power. I asked the service engineer why and he said it was the way they preferred the installs to be done for safety, pull out the plug and you know its off. Same setup would be handy in a power cut to plug into a genny.

quietsailor

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

do ye guys have any recommendation on a small portable gas heater / hob combo ? i have no experience of those so not sure how they work

i would like something cheap as it would only be used during a power outage

A camping stove is the easiest to find, if you have one of those super ser heaters that run off the yellow gas bottles you can purchase a stove that runs off those bottle.

I'm on the phone so I cant hyper link properly but here is a link to a camping stove
http://www.omearacamping.com/camping-gas-chef-double-burner--grill-gas-cooker-stove-package-3986-p.asp

That company are in the trade of selling camping equipment for years so it is a good website to look through

TheChizler

Would it be possible regs wise to run a dedicated changeover ring or rings to a few key points around the house? Or are you not allowed mix rings in the same room or something.

Added expense aside, I could see the benefit of setting that up in a new build or renovation. Couple of sockets for fridge, boiler, TV & Internet, few lights, auto changeover to this reduced load in the event of a power cut.

quietsailor

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

not sure what kind of partners ye guys have :-) but when i told my missus that if i bought a generator we would be able to power the fridge and the tv and charge her phone then she was delighted e

I meant that in a situation where you cannot get home to be the one pulling the generator out, starting it, organizing extensions and finally figuring out what needs to be plugged in that our partners night not be happy.

I'm happy with doing all of this and although my wife is a practical person - she's a farmers daughter - she would not be happy and has told me. And this is a woman who changes her own flat tires and gets annoyed if a man comes over thinking she MUST need help!

2011

TheChizler wrote: »

Would it be possible regs wise to run a dedicated changeover ring or rings to a few key points around the house?

By “ring” I assume you mean circuit?
There is no regulation stating that you are not permitted to install a generator circuit. Not the best way to do it in my opinion.

quietsailor

2011 wrote: »

1. Most large loads in a house are unity (or so close to unity that it makes no difference) power factor, such as an electric oven, electric hob or instantaneous shower.
A motor maybe 0.9 or 0.8 but there aren't very many motors in a house that are large enough to be concerned.



2. This applies more to industry where there are many DOL motors with power factor in the region of 0.9 (motors on VSDs are corrected to unity power factor by the VSD) and high starting currents.




3. So overall a small load that will have little impact on the overall power factor.




4. That is what the devices are rated for, not necessarily what the land is drawing. A cooker will rarely draw 32A.

Points 1-4 are about the same thing really, the electrical term power factor. I know what 2011 is saying and for anyone who doesn't read this forum a lot they are one of the people who give good answers all the time. But I have to add one comment to the reply above. I originally had a 0.75Kw well pump when I bought the house - The op is talking about buying a 3.1kw generator; thats a quarter of the capacity gone already on one must have item. If non electrical people are reading this when you calculate your requirements please think of buying the next size up generator to allow for power factor / wear and tear increasing your load requirement

quietsailor

2011 wrote: »

By “ring” I assume you mean circuit?
There is no regulation stating that you are not permitted to install a generator circuit. Not the best way to do it in my opinion.

I think chisler means having the change over switch feeding the boiler, well pump, lighting circuits, fridge & freezer, some sockets behind the tv, and some sockets available in the kitchen. So you'd have some sockets in the sitting room fed from the changeover panel and all the others fed from the main distribution board.

Actually it's a idea I'd be interested in as well - would it be legal to have a room with different sockets fed from different distributing boards?

TheChizler

2011 wrote: »

By “ring” I assume you mean circuit?
There is no regulation stating that you are not permitted to install a generator circuit. Not the best way to do it in my opinion.

Yes, a ring circuit. What would be a better way?

sunnyday1234

thanks for everything and all the replies. I prob should have mentioned that i dont have a well or would be plugging in the boiler etc. I live in a village and when we get power cuts, they are short lived (few hours to 2 days) so i will just plugging in the basics (maybe not even the fridge)
I have added up the stuff and it would only be about 30% load on the champion generator. I also am buying a heavy duty / waterproof lead to run through the window from the generator. 
So i think i am set :-)

CJhaughey

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

thanks for everything and all the replies. I prob should have mentioned that i dont have a well or would be plugging in the boiler etc. I live in a village and when we get power cuts, they are short lived (few hours to 2 days) so i will just plugging in the basics (maybe not even the fridge)
I have added up the stuff and it would only be about 30% load on the champion generator. I also am buying a heavy duty / waterproof lead to run through the window from the generator. 
So i think i am set :-)

If your loading is that light, I'd suggest a smaller Genset, when they run on light loads they can block with carbon which causes more problems . I would think a smaller one would be better.

sunnyday1234

CJhaughey wrote: »

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

thanks for everything and all the replies. I prob should have mentioned that i dont have a well or would be plugging in the boiler etc. I live in a village and when we get power cuts, they are short lived (few hours to 2 days) so i will just plugging in the basics (maybe not even the fridge)
I have added up the stuff and it would only be about 30% load on the champion generator. I also am buying a heavy duty / waterproof lead to run through the window from the generator. 
So i think i am set :-)

If your loading is that light, I'd suggest a smaller Genset, when they run on light loads they can block with carbon which causes more problems . I would think a smaller one would be better.

yeah but i would also like it to be able to handle larger load if i choose. i dont want to save 100 euro and then find out i cant use it for anything besides a tv

CJhaughey

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

yeah but i would also like it to be able to handle larger load if i choose. i dont want to save 100 euro and then find out i cant use it for anything besides a tv

I am not talking about saving money with a cheaper genset rather buying one that more closely fits your power needs in the interests of longevity.
It may be that a Honda EU series with eco-throttle would be better suited to your needs.

bustopher

To date we've rarely suffered power cuts but following Ophelia & Brian I think it's time to invest in some insurance. It's probably an overreaction but I'll be kicking myself if it does happen over the next 4/5 months.

My priority is to run a gas boiler (central heating & water) and a fridge/freezer combo. We can get by on this setup because our hob is gas. Next on the list would be TV, some lamps & some sockets to power computers & chargers. Finally, and this would be a luxury, would be the electric shower. I would be prepared to run these consecutively rather than concurrently. As I expect any cut off to be short term I can live with live wires, through the house, as everyone is old enough to have sense. I will also accept a bit of inconvenience to set it up. I do accept that I will have to get a switch/socket added to the boiler, but I hope to run everything else without further modification (shower excepted).

The options I'm considering are either i) a 12v DC inverter or ii) a generator. My preference would be for the 12V inverter and using the car as a generator. It has the added advantage of lower noise pollution and disturbance with the neighbours. When not in use it is a smaller unit to store and won't need service. However would running a car engine on idle for extended periods lead to future problems?

Have I overlooked something?

my3cents

bustopher wrote: »

To date we've rarely suffered power cuts but following Ophelia & Brian I think it's time to invest in some insurance. It's probably an overreaction but I'll be kicking myself if it does happen over the next 4/5 months.

My priority is to run a gas boiler (central heating & water) and a fridge/freezer combo. We can get by on this setup because our hob is gas. Next on the list would be TV, some lamps & some sockets to power computers & chargers. Finally, and this would be a luxury, would be the electric shower. I would be prepared to run these consecutively rather than concurrently. As I expect any cut off to be short term I can live with live wires, through the house, as everyone is old enough to have sense. I will also accept a bit of inconvenience to set it up. I do accept that I will have to get a switch/socket added to the boiler, but I hope to run everything else without further modification (shower excepted).

The options I'm considering are either i) a 12v DC inverter or ii) a generator. My preference would be for the 12V inverter and using the car as a generator. It has the added advantage of lower noise pollution and disturbance with the neighbours. When not in use it is a smaller unit to store and won't need service. However would running a car engine on idle for extended periods lead to future problems?

Have I overlooked something?

Unless you have an electric car I really don't think your car battery will hold enough charge or be able to provide enough power.

bustopher

my3cents wrote: »

Unless you have an electric car I really don't think your car battery will hold enough charge or be able to provide enough power.

Would this be so if the car engine was running?

Better off sticking an alternator on a lawnmower engine.
Swatting flies with cannonballs really.

bustopher

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Better off sticking an alternator on a lawnmower engine.
Swatting flies with cannonballs really.

Can you explain what a 12V DC inverter can't deliver say 2000W @ 230V?

I was being serious by the way it's more efficient and less costly. Your motor engine will coke up running cold and idle.
Most 2.5kVA inverters will deliver 2kW.

On principal running combustion engines to mitigate the inconvenience of climate change seems like altogether the wrong approach to me.

my3cents

bustopher wrote: »

Can you explain what a 12V DC inverter can't deliver say 2000W @ 230V?

Its one of those maths problems that you don't want to do because you know its all wrong.

Try working out how thick the cable would need to be to supply that sort of current from the battery to the alternator then how big that current draw is compared to the output of the average car alternator?

exaisle

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I was being serious by the way it's more efficient and less costly. Your motor engine will coke up running cold and idle.
Most 2.5kVA inverters will deliver 2kW.

On principal running combustion engines to mitigate the inconvenience of climate change seems like altogether the wrong approach to me.

Would you have us sitting in the cold and dark? :-)

If you have better ideas, enlighten us, please..

my3cents

exaisle wrote: »

Would you have us sitting in the cold and dark? :-)

If you have better ideas, enlighten us, please..

Get a generator.

Starting with a 12 V system is all wrong if you want a lot of power at 240 V.

bustopher

But how then do you charge the kva

bustopher

my3cents wrote: »

Its one of those maths problems that you don't want to do because you know its all wrong.

Try working out how thick the cable would need to be to supply that sort of current from the battery to the alternator then how big that current draw is compared to the output of the average car alternator?

It now appears to be academic because idling a car at low revs for extended periods could damage the engine ... but the idea that i started with was a short length of thick cable between battery & inverter and then thinner from there on.

bustopher

my3cents wrote: »

Get a generator.

Starting with a 12 V system is all wrong if you want a lot of power at 240 V.

What's a "lot of power"?

listermint

bustopher wrote: »

What's a "lot of power"?

You car and its battery are not designed to run a boiler, fridge, and or TV or power shower.

Why this is even a question is beyond me. Have you considered why they have to upgrade alternators and additional batteries in motor homes? There is a reason for all that trouble.


Get yourself a generator sufficient for your needs and give up on half arse ideas of your car with an inverter powering half your home.

exaisle

my3cents wrote: »

Get a generator.
<snip>

A generator powered by a combustion engine, presumably....??

my3cents

The point being why run a 80hp or more engine powering a less than efficient alternator that is unlikely to be producing enough current for 2000W when you could be running a 5hp engine powering a more efficient generator (but still not very efficient in the great scheme of things) designed for 2000W cutting out battery and the inverter.

A lot of power is relative, if you are starting with 12V as your base then 2000W is a lot of power because you are dealing with nearly 200Amps which has a massive heating effect so needs very thick cable. Once your voltage is up at 240V the heating effect of the much lower current of around an Amp requires relatively thin cable.

knipex

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Grid tied pv inverters need a grid to operate.
Battery inverters do not and they would be my personal preferance to gensets but require an element of energy awareness to get the most outtov and you need at least a 1kW true sine to start most fridge compressors. So not a realistically viable solution for occasional use. More reliable though, low maintenance. UPS with a few extra tractor batteries probably get you pretty far.

Makes more sense to burn gas for heat instead of burning dinosaurs at 40% efficiency & venting the waste heat to the atmosphere to run a lecky heater indoors.

You dont need a "true sine wave" to run a compressor. its essentially a motor, you need a wave but it doesn't need to be fancy..


Do you have any idea how many tractor batteries you would need to run a fridge, a TV, a boiler \ recirculation pump and a few lights for even one night ??

A tractor battery would store about 110Ah @ 12V or roughly 1.3kW hours. (ignoring losses)

At about €120 each plus the UPS and inverter.. V's €400 ish for a Genny that you can top up with a gallon of petrol.. and will give you 3kW output all day for as long as you put petrol in it..

2 Wheels Good

A Tesla Powerwall would also work, cost is high ~$5000, but DIY techies are making more powerfull walls for 1/2 the price and run off solar.

knipex

knipex wrote: »

You dont need a "true sine wave" to run a compressor. its essentially a motor, you need a wave but it doesn't need to be fancy..

You don't think an induction motor needs a sine wave? Good luck with that.

knipex wrote: »

Do you have any idea how many tractor batteries you would need to run a fridge, a TV, a boiler \ recirculation pump and a few lights for even one night ??

Yes.
The reason I suggested those is because they are easy source for scrap prices or lower.
If you were serious then I'd recommend traction batteries.

knipex wrote: »

V's €400 ish for a Genny that you can top up with a gallon of petrol.. and will give you 3kW output all day for as long as you put petrol in it..

If you like the inefficiency, noise, pollution, dirty fuel, climate fallout...carry on.
A genset will never pay for itself. You can add solar to a battery and recuperate some of your investment later and it's clean energy.

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

A Tesla Powerwall would also work, cost is high ~$5000, but DIY techies are making more powerfull walls for 1/2 the price and run off solar.

The Powerwall doesn't work in a powercut. It's just a fashion accessory that return of investment = product lifetime.
Yes DIY techies can and are doing far better for far less...

my3cents

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

...
A genset will never pay for itself.
...

While I 100% agree sometimes we do things just for the convenience.

knipex

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

You don't think an induction motor needs a sine wave? Good luck with that.

Where exactly did I say that ???

I said it doesn't need a "true Sine wave" which is a very specific thing..

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

If you like the inefficiency, noise, pollution, dirty fuel, climate fallout...carry on.
A genset will never pay for itself. You can add solar to a battery and recuperate some of your investment later and it's clean energy.

You obviously didn't actually read what was asked..

They are looking for an emergency backup in the event or a rare power cut. A power cut that may last 3 to 10 days..

You suggested tractor batteries.

Now you are suggesting a PV battery back up system, essentially an off grid solution..

That's not what was asked for, its not what you suggested nor is it what was debated.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

The Powerwall doesn't work in a powercut.

I beg to differ. Its a battery, of course it can, depending on how its installed and Its actually being sold in some markets as an off grid solution.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Yes DIY techies can and are doing far better for far less...

That depends on how you quantify better. In all development phases of new technologies you will find a strong DIY market that develop excellent solutions for very specific applications but I doubt anyone would call them mass market solutions. Or for that matter plug and play..

knipex

knipex wrote: »

Where exactly did I say that ???

I said it doesn't need a "true Sine wave" which is a very specific thing..

Which of these waves do you think generates more torque and less heat in an induction motor?

knipex wrote: »

You obviously didn't actually read what was asked..

They are looking for an emergency backup in the event or a rare power cut. A power cut that may last 3 to 10 days..

You suggested tractor batteries.

Now you are suggesting a PV battery back up system,

I am suggesting alternative power sources.
Define generator?

knipex wrote: »

essentially an off grid solution..

What's a genset?

knipex wrote: »

That's not what was asked for, its not what you suggested nor is it what was debated.

What's wrong with options? Some are better some are worse.

knipex wrote: »

I beg to differ. Its a battery, of course it can, depending on how its installed and Its actually being sold in some markets as an off grid solution.

Sure it can but the consumer version doesn't. Nor does it take charge from mains, just solar pv. It's not a very good off grid solution it's too small, proprietary and expensive.

knipex wrote: »

That depends on how you quantify better. In all development phases of new technologies you will find a strong DIY market that develop excellent solutions for very specific applications but I doubt anyone would call them mass market solutions. Or for that matter plug and play..

There's nothing plug and play about 14kWh+, which for a P-wall incidentally is ~£8k installed by professionals with hardware.

knipex

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Which of these waves do you think generates more torque and less heat in an induction motor?

Again what has that got to do with what you or I posted ?

You stated a compressor (or for that matter any induction motor) needs a true sine wave in order to run..



They don't .. if they did then half the inverter driven motors out there wouldn't work..

Is a true sine wave preferable ?? Absolutely.... but that's not what you said nor what I responded to.

Grand agree to disagree.
Sure you can drive nails with axes if you want to.

CJhaughey

The easiest solution would be a Honda Eu20i converted to run on LPG, this way you have no problems with old stale fuel blocking the carb, cleaner burn so the oil stays clean and will run your essentials.
Forget the shower no chance anything short of a big diesel genset will run your 10-13kw shower.
Add up all your requirements in terms of power and buy a genny that will run it.
Starting electric motors uses a fair bit of juice probably in the order of 3 x the running watts.

I don't like gensets but if I did I'd like a Honda...or a Lister.

bustopher

CJhaughey wrote: »

The easiest solution would be a Honda Eu20i converted to run on LPG, this way you have no problems with old stale fuel blocking the carb, cleaner burn so the oil stays clean and will run your essentials.
Forget the shower no chance anything short of a big diesel genset will run your 10-13kw shower.
Add up all your requirements in terms of power and buy a genny that will run it.
Starting electric motors uses a fair bit of juice probably in the order of 3 x the running watts.

Thanks for this CJ.

Are you aware of any cheaper models than Honda?

my3cents

CJhaughey wrote: »

The easiest solution would be a Honda Eu20i converted to run on LPG, this way you have no problems with old stale fuel blocking the carb, cleaner burn so the oil stays clean and will run your essentials.
Forget the shower no chance anything short of a big diesel genset will run your 10-13kw shower.
Add up all your requirements in terms of power and buy a genny that will run it.
Starting electric motors uses a fair bit of juice probably in the order of 3 x the running watts.

Can't remember the name (probably had eco in it somewhere) on a load of generators and big water pumps that are being promo-ed in a lot of builders merchants. Anyway the whole point of them is that they are run on bottled gas.

Not seen any prices but might be worth a look if anyone is interested.

Tuco88

CJhaughey wrote: »

The easiest solution would be a Honda Eu20i converted to run on LPG, this way you have no problems with old stale fuel blocking the carb, cleaner burn so the oil stays clean and will run your essentials.
Forget the shower no chance anything short of a big diesel genset will run your 10-13kw shower.
Add up all your requirements in terms of power and buy a genny that will run it.
Starting electric motors uses a fair bit of juice probably in the order of 3 x the running watts.

+1Not a bad idea at all. The biggest problem with petrol gens imo is lack of use, stale petrol and diaphragm, rubber seals dont go well.

I would also be one for a generator, Its the most practicaI it can come in handy for other jobs too, working on a new build or shed. It will also be much easier to sell or repair.

I have doubts with any battery storing systems over cost and practicality. Fine for particular situations no doubt.

Water John

I think they use LPG more in America for generators. No fuel staleness.

bustopher

my3cents wrote: »

Can't remember the name (probably had eco in it somewhere) on a load of generators and big water pumps that are being promo-ed in a lot of builders merchants. Anyway the whole point of them is that they are run on bottled gas.

Not seen any prices but might be worth a look if anyone is interested.

Was it 'Greengear' by any chance?