Home Generator

TheChizler · 21-10-2017 10:59pm

Would it be possible regs wise to run a dedicated changeover ring or rings to a few key points around the house? Or are you not allowed mix rings in the same room or something.

Added expense aside, I could see the benefit of setting that up in a new build or renovation. Couple of sockets for fridge, boiler, TV & Internet, few lights, auto changeover to this reduced load in the event of a power cut.

quietsailor · 21-10-2017 11:01pm

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

not sure what kind of partners ye guys have :-) but when i told my missus that if i bought a generator we would be able to power the fridge and the tv and charge her phone then she was delighted e

I meant that in a situation where you cannot get home to be the one pulling the generator out, starting it, organizing extensions and finally figuring out what needs to be plugged in that our partners night not be happy.

I'm happy with doing all of this and although my wife is a practical person - she's a farmers daughter - she would not be happy and has told me. And this is a woman who changes her own flat tires and gets annoyed if a man comes over thinking she MUST need help!

21-10-2017 11:10pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Would it be possible regs wise to run a dedicated changeover ring or rings to a few key points around the house?

By “ring” I assume you mean circuit?
There is no regulation stating that you are not permitted to install a generator circuit. Not the best way to do it in my opinion.

quietsailor · 21-10-2017 11:13pm

2011 wrote: »

1. Most large loads in a house are unity (or so close to unity that it makes no difference) power factor, such as an electric oven, electric hob or instantaneous shower.
A motor maybe 0.9 or 0.8 but there aren't very many motors in a house that are large enough to be concerned.

2. This applies more to industry where there are many DOL motors with power factor in the region of 0.9 (motors on VSDs are corrected to unity power factor by the VSD) and high starting currents.

3. So overall a small load that will have little impact on the overall power factor.

4. That is what the devices are rated for, not necessarily what the land is drawing. A cooker will rarely draw 32A.

Points 1-4 are about the same thing really, the electrical term power factor. I know what 2011 is saying and for anyone who doesn't read this forum a lot they are one of the people who give good answers all the time. But I have to add one comment to the reply above. I originally had a 0.75Kw well pump when I bought the house - The op is talking about buying a 3.1kw generator; thats a quarter of the capacity gone already on one must have item. If non electrical people are reading this when you calculate your requirements please think of buying the next size up generator to allow for power factor / wear and tear increasing your load requirement

quietsailor · 21-10-2017 11:19pm

2011 wrote: »

By “ring” I assume you mean circuit?
There is no regulation stating that you are not permitted to install a generator circuit. Not the best way to do it in my opinion.

I think chisler means having the change over switch feeding the boiler, well pump, lighting circuits, fridge & freezer, some sockets behind the tv, and some sockets available in the kitchen. So you'd have some sockets in the sitting room fed from the changeover panel and all the others fed from the main distribution board.

Actually it's a idea I'd be interested in as well - would it be legal to have a room with different sockets fed from different distributing boards?

TheChizler · 21-10-2017 11:54pm

2011 wrote: »

By “ring” I assume you mean circuit?
There is no regulation stating that you are not permitted to install a generator circuit. Not the best way to do it in my opinion.

Yes, a ring circuit. What would be a better way?

sunnyday1234 · 23-10-2017 8:23am

thanks for everything and all the replies. I prob should have mentioned that i dont have a well or would be plugging in the boiler etc. I live in a village and when we get power cuts, they are short lived (few hours to 2 days) so i will just plugging in the basics (maybe not even the fridge)
I have added up the stuff and it would only be about 30% load on the champion generator. I also am buying a heavy duty / waterproof lead to run through the window from the generator.
So i think i am set :-)

CJhaughey · 23-10-2017 11:34am

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

thanks for everything and all the replies. I prob should have mentioned that i dont have a well or would be plugging in the boiler etc. I live in a village and when we get power cuts, they are short lived (few hours to 2 days) so i will just plugging in the basics (maybe not even the fridge)
I have added up the stuff and it would only be about 30% load on the champion generator. I also am buying a heavy duty / waterproof lead to run through the window from the generator.
So i think i am set :-)

If your loading is that light, I'd suggest a smaller Genset, when they run on light loads they can block with carbon which causes more problems . I would think a smaller one would be better.

sunnyday1234 · 24-10-2017 12:27pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

thanks for everything and all the replies. I prob should have mentioned that i dont have a well or would be plugging in the boiler etc. I live in a village and when we get power cuts, they are short lived (few hours to 2 days) so i will just plugging in the basics (maybe not even the fridge)
I have added up the stuff and it would only be about 30% load on the champion generator. I also am buying a heavy duty / waterproof lead to run through the window from the generator.
So i think i am set :-)

If your loading is that light, I'd suggest a smaller Genset, when they run on light loads they can block with carbon which causes more problems . I would think a smaller one would be better.

yeah but i would also like it to be able to handle larger load if i choose. i dont want to save 100 euro and then find out i cant use it for anything besides a tv

CJhaughey · 24-10-2017 3:47pm

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

yeah but i would also like it to be able to handle larger load if i choose. i dont want to save 100 euro and then find out i cant use it for anything besides a tv

I am not talking about saving money with a cheaper genset rather buying one that more closely fits your power needs in the interests of longevity.
It may be that a Honda EU series with eco-throttle would be better suited to your needs.

bustopher · 27-10-2017 4:41pm

To date we've rarely suffered power cuts but following Ophelia & Brian I think it's time to invest in some insurance. It's probably an overreaction but I'll be kicking myself if it does happen over the next 4/5 months.

My priority is to run a gas boiler (central heating & water) and a fridge/freezer combo. We can get by on this setup because our hob is gas. Next on the list would be TV, some lamps & some sockets to power computers & chargers. Finally, and this would be a luxury, would be the electric shower. I would be prepared to run these consecutively rather than concurrently. As I expect any cut off to be short term I can live with live wires, through the house, as everyone is old enough to have sense. I will also accept a bit of inconvenience to set it up. I do accept that I will have to get a switch/socket added to the boiler, but I hope to run everything else without further modification (shower excepted).

The options I'm considering are either i) a 12v DC inverter or ii) a generator. My preference would be for the 12V inverter and using the car as a generator. It has the added advantage of lower noise pollution and disturbance with the neighbours. When not in use it is a smaller unit to store and won't need service. However would running a car engine on idle for extended periods lead to future problems?

Have I overlooked something?

my3cents · 27-10-2017 5:36pm

bustopher wrote: »

To date we've rarely suffered power cuts but following Ophelia & Brian I think it's time to invest in some insurance. It's probably an overreaction but I'll be kicking myself if it does happen over the next 4/5 months.

My priority is to run a gas boiler (central heating & water) and a fridge/freezer combo. We can get by on this setup because our hob is gas. Next on the list would be TV, some lamps & some sockets to power computers & chargers. Finally, and this would be a luxury, would be the electric shower. I would be prepared to run these consecutively rather than concurrently. As I expect any cut off to be short term I can live with live wires, through the house, as everyone is old enough to have sense. I will also accept a bit of inconvenience to set it up. I do accept that I will have to get a switch/socket added to the boiler, but I hope to run everything else without further modification (shower excepted).

The options I'm considering are either i) a 12v DC inverter or ii) a generator. My preference would be for the 12V inverter and using the car as a generator. It has the added advantage of lower noise pollution and disturbance with the neighbours. When not in use it is a smaller unit to store and won't need service. However would running a car engine on idle for extended periods lead to future problems?

Have I overlooked something?

Unless you have an electric car I really don't think your car battery will hold enough charge or be able to provide enough power.

bustopher · 27-10-2017 5:43pm

my3cents wrote: »

Unless you have an electric car I really don't think your car battery will hold enough charge or be able to provide enough power.

Would this be so if the car engine was running?

27-10-2017 6:00pm

Better off sticking an alternator on a lawnmower engine.
Swatting flies with cannonballs really.

bustopher · 27-10-2017 6:34pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Better off sticking an alternator on a lawnmower engine.
Swatting flies with cannonballs really.

Can you explain what a 12V DC inverter can't deliver say 2000W @ 230V?

27-10-2017 7:38pm

I was being serious by the way it's more efficient and less costly. Your motor engine will coke up running cold and idle.
Most 2.5kVA inverters will deliver 2kW.

On principal running combustion engines to mitigate the inconvenience of climate change seems like altogether the wrong approach to me.

my3cents · 27-10-2017 7:43pm

bustopher wrote: »

Can you explain what a 12V DC inverter can't deliver say 2000W @ 230V?

Its one of those maths problems that you don't want to do because you know its all wrong.

Try working out how thick the cable would need to be to supply that sort of current from the battery to the alternator then how big that current draw is compared to the output of the average car alternator?

exaisle · 27-10-2017 7:46pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I was being serious by the way it's more efficient and less costly. Your motor engine will coke up running cold and idle.
Most 2.5kVA inverters will deliver 2kW.

On principal running combustion engines to mitigate the inconvenience of climate change seems like altogether the wrong approach to me.

Would you have us sitting in the cold and dark? :-)

If you have better ideas, enlighten us, please..

my3cents · 27-10-2017 7:53pm

exaisle wrote: »

Would you have us sitting in the cold and dark? :-)

If you have better ideas, enlighten us, please..

Get a generator.

Starting with a 12 V system is all wrong if you want a lot of power at 240 V.

bustopher · 27-10-2017 8:32pm

But how then do you charge the kva

bustopher · 27-10-2017 8:57pm

my3cents wrote: »

Its one of those maths problems that you don't want to do because you know its all wrong.

Try working out how thick the cable would need to be to supply that sort of current from the battery to the alternator then how big that current draw is compared to the output of the average car alternator?

It now appears to be academic because idling a car at low revs for extended periods could damage the engine ... but the idea that i started with was a short length of thick cable between battery & inverter and then thinner from there on.

bustopher · 27-10-2017 8:59pm

my3cents wrote: »

Get a generator.

Starting with a 12 V system is all wrong if you want a lot of power at 240 V.

What's a "lot of power"?

listermint · 27-10-2017 9:05pm

bustopher wrote: »

What's a "lot of power"?

You car and its battery are not designed to run a boiler, fridge, and or TV or power shower.

Why this is even a question is beyond me. Have you considered why they have to upgrade alternators and additional batteries in motor homes? There is a reason for all that trouble.

Get yourself a generator sufficient for your needs and give up on half arse ideas of your car with an inverter powering half your home.

exaisle · 27-10-2017 9:34pm

my3cents wrote: »

Get a generator.
<snip>

A generator powered by a combustion engine, presumably....??

my3cents · 27-10-2017 10:51pm

The point being why run a 80hp or more engine powering a less than efficient alternator that is unlikely to be producing enough current for 2000W when you could be running a 5hp engine powering a more efficient generator (but still not very efficient in the great scheme of things) designed for 2000W cutting out battery and the inverter.

A lot of power is relative, if you are starting with 12V as your base then 2000W is a lot of power because you are dealing with nearly 200Amps which has a massive heating effect so needs very thick cable. Once your voltage is up at 240V the heating effect of the much lower current of around an Amp requires relatively thin cable.

knipex · 31-10-2017 1:07pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Grid tied pv inverters need a grid to operate.
Battery inverters do not and they would be my personal preferance to gensets but require an element of energy awareness to get the most outtov and you need at least a 1kW true sine to start most fridge compressors. So not a realistically viable solution for occasional use. More reliable though, low maintenance. UPS with a few extra tractor batteries probably get you pretty far.

Makes more sense to burn gas for heat instead of burning dinosaurs at 40% efficiency & venting the waste heat to the atmosphere to run a lecky heater indoors.

You dont need a "true sine wave" to run a compressor. its essentially a motor, you need a wave but it doesn't need to be fancy..

Do you have any idea how many tractor batteries you would need to run a fridge, a TV, a boiler \ recirculation pump and a few lights for even one night ??

A tractor battery would store about 110Ah @ 12V or roughly 1.3kW hours. (ignoring losses)

At about €120 each plus the UPS and inverter.. V's €400 ish for a Genny that you can top up with a gallon of petrol.. and will give you 3kW output all day for as long as you put petrol in it..

2 Wheels Good · 31-10-2017 1:15pm

A Tesla Powerwall would also work, cost is high ~$5000, but DIY techies are making more powerfull walls for 1/2 the price and run off solar.

31-10-2017 2:02pm

knipex wrote: »

You dont need a "true sine wave" to run a compressor. its essentially a motor, you need a wave but it doesn't need to be fancy..

You don't think an induction motor needs a sine wave? Good luck with that.

knipex wrote: »

Do you have any idea how many tractor batteries you would need to run a fridge, a TV, a boiler \ recirculation pump and a few lights for even one night ??

Yes.
The reason I suggested those is because they are easy source for scrap prices or lower.
If you were serious then I'd recommend traction batteries.

knipex wrote: »

V's €400 ish for a Genny that you can top up with a gallon of petrol.. and will give you 3kW output all day for as long as you put petrol in it..

If you like the inefficiency, noise, pollution, dirty fuel, climate fallout...carry on.
A genset will never pay for itself. You can add solar to a battery and recuperate some of your investment later and it's clean energy.

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

A Tesla Powerwall would also work, cost is high ~$5000, but DIY techies are making more powerfull walls for 1/2 the price and run off solar.

The Powerwall doesn't work in a powercut. It's just a fashion accessory that return of investment = product lifetime.
Yes DIY techies can and are doing far better for far less...

my3cents · 31-10-2017 2:14pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

...
A genset will never pay for itself.
...

While I 100% agree sometimes we do things just for the convenience.

knipex · 31-10-2017 2:28pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

You don't think an induction motor needs a sine wave? Good luck with that.

Where exactly did I say that ???

I said it doesn't need a "true Sine wave" which is a very specific thing..

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

If you like the inefficiency, noise, pollution, dirty fuel, climate fallout...carry on.
A genset will never pay for itself. You can add solar to a battery and recuperate some of your investment later and it's clean energy.

You obviously didn't actually read what was asked..

They are looking for an emergency backup in the event or a rare power cut. A power cut that may last 3 to 10 days..

You suggested tractor batteries.

Now you are suggesting a PV battery back up system, essentially an off grid solution..

That's not what was asked for, its not what you suggested nor is it what was debated.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

The Powerwall doesn't work in a powercut.

I beg to differ. Its a battery, of course it can, depending on how its installed and Its actually being sold in some markets as an off grid solution.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Yes DIY techies can and are doing far better for far less...

That depends on how you quantify better. In all development phases of new technologies you will find a strong DIY market that develop excellent solutions for very specific applications but I doubt anyone would call them mass market solutions. Or for that matter plug and play..

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