#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Icemancometh

anewme wrote: »

I don't recall attractiveness being mentioned at all until you said it.

A persons personality dictates their attractiveness.

A person immediately becomes ugly and unattractive when they harass someone.

Case in point Did Ben Affleck not get into trouble and have to apologise for groping someone recently?

The post I responded to:

brooke 2 wrote: »

. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! Ugh!! :mad:

You interpret that how you want, but I think it's clear. A lot of the articles I read about Weinstein's actions made clear his repulsive appearance. I am in complete agreement with you that the attractiveness of the abuser does not affect the abuse in any way. I was trying to highlight what you are you now saying in fact, just did a poor job of it I guess.

gammygils

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I still have FB "friends" that have the opaque French Flag in their profile pic.

#Metoo

retro:electro

brooke 2 wrote: »

FFS! How about men just having the cop on to exert enough self control not to ogle women. Perhaps the burka is needed to remove temptation from poor helpless men!!

Are you being serious? We are chemically programmed to be attracted to one another. Ogling isn't pleasant but it sure as hell isnt harassment in and of itself. If I'm being leered at, and feel uncomfortable about it- I say are you alright there? And project the discomfort back in his direction and go about my day/life and never think about it again.
Persistent ogling when you've told someone to stop is another story and I'd categorise that as intimidation.

brooke 2

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ah in fairness I think what klaz was trying to say was...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-1kHxsavI

In even greater fairness, the original comment had to do with a woman sitting on a bus being subjected to the unwelcome stares of a man sitting across from her. The situation in the video bears no resemblance to that.

brooke 2

anna080 wrote: »

That poster is a woman

:eek::o

anewme

Wibbs wrote: »

Great question A. Personally speaking? Nobody and I mean Nobody, man or woman should be harassed and most certainly not assaulted because of how they dress. However, if anyone, man or woman is given more attention because of how they dress(or act), that kinda goes with the territory. If I walked into a bar in Barcelona tonight wearing a Spanish flag Tee shirt that had the words Madrid forever, if anyone attacked me they would be dickheads, but I would have been unwise.

Many moons ago I knew a few gym types. Mad into their lifting weights and such. One guy was a monster and a roided one at that. Looked like Arnie on a good day. He was wearing a spray on white tee, where you could damn near see the bulging veins on his many muscles. He got off on that as did the women(and a couple of men) who dug that sorta thing in the group. And fair enough. Later on in the evening he complained about some woman at the bar who admired and got a bit handsie over his pecs. Was she a tool? Yes. Was he a bit thick to not see why he might have attracted such a tool? Equally yes.

On the other hand I do think that where does one draw the line. I mean pensioners have been raped often enough. But I would generally think rapists are another group of mental cases. Those who react to attention grabbing dress are a different breed as a general rule.

I get that and I suppose I'm equating it to my own situation. I also don't know what the posters definition of sexy clothes are.

I wear a lot of work "blouses" or shirts. White, light enough material, not see through but definitely see a bra outline. They are not sexy, in my opinion, they are workwear. I dont see why I shoukd have to wear a coat or jacket or shapeless blob top in the office in case someone could see a bra outline through my top.

I think that particular comment about showpieces, reminded me for some reason of working in the Mad Men office.

brooke 2

Wibbs wrote: »

That's a common notion, but mostly a fallacious one IMHO. And it is hard for most men to see that difference. I mean if you're grabbed by the man jewels by some granny on a hen do that's gross, but if she was a babe, it would be more likely "well helllllooo". I would agree that women in general do feel more socially vulnerable. Physically too. I mean, let's face it, as a man neither the "granny" nor the "babe" can exactly pull you into a dark corner and feel you up without your say so. There is a marked difference there.

Came across a skit video re Education about Sexual Harassment in the Workplace. Set in Mad Men era. Attractive blonde is seated at her workplace.
Nerdy guy from the office nervously approaches her to ask for a date. She immediately reaches for the phone to complain to HR about harassment. Next arrives Tom Brady (New England Patriots), dressed only in a shirt and gleaming white bulging (very!) jocks! He asks the same girl for a date; without batting as much as an eyelid, she agrees to go with him. He asks her for her phone number which she hands to him on a note. He promptly places the note in his jocks!! :eek: Walks away nonchalantly.

Sexual politics is a minefield!!

brooke 2

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Have you never looked at an attractive man in the street?

Yes. 'Look' being the operative word. I have better manners than to 'ogle'!!

hatrickpatrick

brooke 2 wrote: »

Yes. 'Look' being the operative word. I have better manners than to 'ogle'!!

I think we can all agree that staring at someone is rude regardless of why it's done. The problem, as always, is that there's no set or agreed upon definition of when a look becomes a stare - how many seconds must it go on for? - and clearly there are some who find even being glanced at offensive, which totally muddies the waters.

It's similar to the tweet a few pages back about the TSA agent. I think we can all - men and women - agree that persistently hassling somebody with sexual advances when you've been clearly rejected is a disgraceful way to behave. If we could all agree on this as the definition of sexual harassment, there would be almost no debate about it. The problem is when some people push it beyond that to encompass simply expressing interest in somebody without knowing in advance that it isn't reciprocated - this can never meet the definition of harassment, but some people would clearly like it to, or else would like to impose upon society designated zones or situations in which merely expressing interest would be unacceptable. Personally I would 100% oppose this simply because it is unnecessarily closing off avenues for people, male and female, to potentially find happy relationships. But it's very obvious that there are some people who very much want this to be the new norm.

As I said previously, sure, a lot of relationships are formed using dating apps or through introduction by mutual friends. But some of the happiest couples I know got together initially by one of them just seeing the other, liking the look of them, and straight up asking them out. If that can be regarded as sexual harassment these days, perhaps because of the situation or because of the position held by either of the individuals involved, to me that's just incredibly depressing, because I can list all of the happy relationships among people I know which wouldn't be able to exist at all under those circumstances.

The point is, the whole issue of sexual harassment is very difficult to quantify, and it's being ruined by the people who want to impose such insanely restrictive rules on when and how people can express a sexual interest in another person as to ensure that the debate descends into utter farce.

If I could offer an analogy here, it's like when the medical lobby keeps reducing the amount of alcohol that they regard as acceptable without being defined as a binge - they could be taken seriously if they talked about reasonable moderation, but now that they've decided that three pints of beer in one evening out counts as alcoholism, they have pushed the debate into farce and ensured that most people are just switching off to health warnings because they've become so ridiculously restrictive. Sexual harassment is facing a similar problem - when people hear the phrase "sexual harassment" in this day and age, their first thought is not about somebody being persistently sleazy and hassling somebody after having been rejected, their first thought is that it could easily be another eejit who thinks that being asked out for coffee in the wrong circumstances should be regarded as a crime against humanity.

All debates around changing society's behaviour have to be based around realistic parameters of how people live their lives. The vast majority of people do not want to live in a society in which expressing a sexual interest in another person can be regarded as doing something wrong unless it meets an increasingly narrow set of criteria about when, where, and between who it happens. Because this is pushed frequently among those who talk about harassment, the whole subject ends up not being taken seriously.

Another example would be sexual assault statistics and alcohol - most people do not agree with or believe that somebody who is drunk is automatically incapable of consenting to sex, so when consensual-but-drunken sex is included in the definition of sexual assault, the entire conversation around sexual assault gets completely derailed. In other words, when the word "rape" comes up and people don't know whether that refers to sex where no consent was given, or sex which may even have been initiated by a drunken individual who regretted (as we all do from time to time) his or her drunken antics the following morning, the entire conversation about rape becomes far less clear cut than it should be. We all know that rape is unacceptable, but the definition of it is being stretched to include normal, everyday behaviours that most people cannot get behind. Sexual harassment is similar - it's unacceptable, but not if its definition includes everyday, innocuous behaviours such as "looking at an attractive person as they walk past" or "politely asking someone out in an unconventional scenario for doing so".

Outlaw Pete

brooke 2 wrote: »

In even greater fairness, the original comment had to do with a woman sitting on a bus being subjected to the unwelcome stares of a man sitting across from her. The situation in the video bears no resemblance to that.

Yes, but klaz was referencing a specific way of dressing........ not that woman on bus example.

Deleted User wrote: »

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them.

This kinda thing (this is the last time I'm bailing you out klaz ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU

Bambi985

I think being everything from stared at to ogled by the opposite sex is part of the experience of being a woman at a certain stage of her life (youth, most prominently) and something that's not going to change any time soon.

I'd never categorise that as sexual assault or harassment and IME most women develop tools and strategies to deal with male attention as they get older - from revelling in it when it's wanted i.e dolled up on a night out and chatting to an attractive guy, to making it clear when it's not i.e reacting with hostility to that pervy-uncle type having a gawk on the tube.

If I see a guy ogling me inappropriately whether it's an executive in a boardroom or a nasty type on the tube, I'll stare him down until it's clear that it's very much unwelcome and I won't be intimidated into taking it. I have no problem being as impolite and confrontational as I feel is necessary. 99.99% of the time that kills the behaviour very quickly, but someone venturing beyond my boundaries at that point is what I would consider sexual harassment.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

It's frankly bizarre that I have to explain this to an actual adult but get this:

Breasts aren't detachable.

Women get issued with just the one set, we don't have discreet, petite ones for daytime wear and a more dramatic pair for nights out.

If a woman has larger breasts that is not an excuse for having a good old stare, and she shouldn't be expected to wear a bloody coat just to avoid being stared at.

also

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ah in fairness I think what klaz was trying to say was...

I can't help but notice that there is a bit of a pattern forming over the last few days of Klaz having to have his more 'unusual' opinions helpfully explained away by other posters.
If that kept happening to me, I either have a hard look at my opinions or the way I expressed them.

__..__

professore wrote: »

I think it's at least 20 years since I saw a girl being wolf whistled. Does this still happen? If so why have I never seen it?

I did it about 18 years ago. Definitely less than 20 years.

I was crossing the road this morning and there was a girl wearing hotpants jogging. My eyes followed her hotpants and a car beeped the horn at me for nearly walking out in front of it, while I was distracted. The girl in hot pants turned around and swore at the driver and gave him the finger. Must have been in my defence. Fair play to her.

I wonder if she tweeted #METOO
But was it about the driver whondid nothing wrong except probably save a life, or me, who she didn't see at all looking at her hotpants thinking jesus they look very tight for jogging.

By the way I have to declare here that she was in no way attractive. It was.ourely that someone would jog in hotpants that distracted me.

__..__

..

__..__

I wish people would stop looking at my eyes unless they are in front of my face speaking to me. That seriously makes me very uncomfortable.
And no way can anyone tell me what I am or am not oggling if they aren't looking at my eyes.

professore

neonsofa wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Well maybe because decent men are the most unappreciated members of modern society? The ones that risk their lives, bust their asses every day to provide for their loved ones without complaining or ever looking for recognition or reward. No. They are all evil rapists.

But those men are decent for the reasons you list above, not purely due to the fact that they didn't harass a woman on a night out. You're complaining that men are viewed as evil rapists yet you told another poster that she should post on twitter thanking men for not grabbing her on nights out. Basically saying that men should be applauded and hailed as decent men when they don't harass and rape women. It makes no sense. Can you not see why i am confused by your posts??

I read newspaper articles about women committing all sorts of horrendous crimes like murdering their children and sexually assaulting minors in the classroom, but yet it's no problem to say how wonderful women are. Why are men different?

snowflaker

Bodily autonomy means a person has control over whom or what uses their body, for what, and for how long.

professore

https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/i-was-sexually-harassed-says-rt-weather-presenter-joanna-donnelly-36249564.html

This kind of thing is what pisses people off. I'm not referring to the anonymous letter, I'm referring to the "sexual harrassment" of some guy asking her out a few times and she saying no to him. Nothing more. Who has this not happened to, male or female, someone you don't fancy chasing you?

Calls into question the credibility of her whole narrative. Then a mention of her book at the end. Makes a mockery of genuine cases.

__..__

That that's cleared up so.
Making someone uncomfortable by looking at a particular part of them they don't like being looked at is their own problem.
I agree. I have and continue to work on my little traits.

snowflaker

You know that’s incorrect. It’s the literal nazis are socialists argument.

If you believed it you would also believe in the right to point your penis at people

professore

brooke 2 wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

That's a common notion, but mostly a fallacious one IMHO. And it is hard for most men to see that difference. I mean if you're grabbed by the man jewels by some granny on a hen do that's gross, but if she was a babe, it would be more likely "well helllllooo". I would agree that women in general do feel more socially vulnerable. Physically too. I mean, let's face it, as a man neither the "granny" nor the "babe" can exactly pull you into a dark corner and feel you up without your say so. There is a marked difference there.

Came across a skit video re Education about Sexual Harassment in the Workplace. Set in Mad Men era. Attractive blonde is seated at her workplace.
Nerdy guy from the office nervously approaches her to ask for a date. She immediately reaches for the phone to complain to HR about harassment. Next arrives Tom Brady (New England Patriots), dressed only in a shirt and gleaming white bulging (very!) jocks! He asks the same girl for a date; without batting as much as an eyelid, she agrees to go with him. He asks her for her phone number which she hands to him on a note. He promptly places the note in his jocks!! :eek: Walks away nonchalantly.

Sexual politics is a minefield!!

Proving once again that sexual harrassment is totally subjective. What one man can do is totally different to another. And consent doesn't come into it in this scenario either.

But this is never acknowledged.

Personally I think it's a cynical power thing by feminists. Make the rules but allow certain men carte blanche to break them at will with no consequences. Feminism doesn't apply to these men, they just go on having their way with lots of women and bragging to their friends about it how easy it is. Having to listen to women saying how "lovely" and "confident" these guys are. The same guys who really treat women like objects.

Like one younger guy I know who has (in his words) banged the boss's daughter (an open secret) and is now going to bang the boss's wife. Has banged half the women in the office.. Last office party the boss's wife was all over him. But I guess it's all OK right?

Other guys see this having being ignored and cheated on and think "Well that's how women want to be treated". Then they ask a girl out they fancy and it's sexual harrassment. Not saying it's right but explaining the thought process.

traveller0101

Any person who tells you you can't look where you want is dangerous and a control freak. If you could read people's minds you would probably want to lock them up.

You don't get a choice who looks at you and who doesn't. Welcome to reality!

I will admittedly acknowledge I don't understand why posters here get so offended by the idea that a woman is responsible for her clothing/physical appearance... Can't even discuss it for a moment without extreme examples thrown out as objections.

Not once did I say that staring at a woman's breasts was acceptable. I'm not seeking excuse other men's behavior either.

It just seems foolish to me that more consideration about your own appearance is not taken into account. This is not about most men. Yes, We are attracted to the female body. Biological imperatives, Social conditioning, advertising, movies, etc have all encouraged us to appreciate women based on their physical appearance. Most men are polite enough not to stare at a woman's body parts.

But the issue here is not about most men. It is once again about the minority for whom politeness is not important. They don't care about making the woman uncomfortable. This could be a cultural or religious thing (e.g. coming from a Muslim country or a very traditional society) or simply that they're assholes. I don't know, but your clothing choices will affect them.

Women should have the right to wear whatever they wish. I get that. I have zero problems with any of that. Just as men should have also the ability to wear whatever they wish. But the world is not a perfect place, and there are risks in how we appear to others.

Why is it so terrible to acknowledge those risks as being real... and the factors that cause the problems?

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

I will admittedly acknowledge I don't understand why posters here get so offended by the idea that a woman is responsible for her clothing/physical appearance... Can't even discuss it for a moment without extreme examples thrown out as objections.

Not once did I say that staring at a woman's breasts was acceptable. I'm not seeking excuse other men's behavior either.

It just seems foolish to me that more consideration about your own appearance is not taken into account. This is not about most men. Yes, We are attracted to the female body. Biological imperatives, Social conditioning, advertising, movies, etc have all encouraged us to appreciate women based on their physical appearance. Most men are polite enough not to stare at a woman's body parts.

But the issue here is not about most men. It is once again about the minority for whom politeness is not important. They don't care about making the woman uncomfortable. This could be a cultural or religious thing (e.g. coming from a Muslim country or a very traditional society) or simply that they're assholes. I don't know, but your clothing choices will affect them.

Women should have the right to wear whatever they wish. I get that. I have zero problems with any of that. Just as men should have also the ability to wear whatever they wish. But the world is not a perfect place, and there are risks in how we appear to others.

Why is it so terrible to acknowledge those risks as being real... and the factors that cause the problems?

You've just made another argument for why women should wear burqas.

A fun effect of having that kind of dress code is that when women do choose to dress 'immodestly',and are harassed, they are told that they should have known better than to wear that type of clothing.

1. It's not on women to change their behaviour, it's on the men who behave badly.
2. Street harassment is rife in countries where women DO wear burqas/hijab, so it doesn't even work!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2010/06/the-burqa-doesnt-stop-sexual-harassment/

More than 60 per cent of the respondents — including females — suggested that scantily clad women were most at risk. But the study concluded that the majority of the victims of harassment were modestly dressed women wearing the hijab. Contrary to expectations, the male perpetrators made little distinction between women wearing a veil and those who were not. “We found that a veil does not protect women as we thought,” says Abu Al Komsan. “More than 75 per cent of women in Egypt are veiled but are still harassed. And 9 per cent wear the niqab — the complete face cover — so they are fully covered.”

While both men and women surveyed said that short skirts and tight clothes triggered harassment, Nora Khalid, 31, told Weekend Review: “All my female colleagues advised me to wear the hijab to spare myself any advances from passers-by, just to find that women in the hijab were the most frequent targets of unwanted comments and touching on the street.”

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

You've just made another argument for why women should wear burqas.

Actually, you're the one suggesting it. I didn't mention burqas at all.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, you're the one suggesting it. I didn't mention burqas at all.

You are arguing that men are on some level, biologically driven to stare at women. That women can prevent this by dressing in way which conceals their bodies.

The burqa is the logical conclusion of that line of reasoning.

(it doesn't work btw)

suicide_circus

Non see-through sunglasses on the men is far more particular.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

You are arguing that men are on some level, biologically driven to stare at women. That women can prevent this by dressing in way which conceals their bodies.

I did state a few other reasons as to why men look at women's breasts, and that most men are able to not stare at them.

I simply pointed out that men are affected by the clothes that women wear, and some clothes do highlight the breasts region for attention. If they don't want that attention, they could dress differently.

The burqa is the logical conclusion of that line of reasoning.

Only by those objecting to the discussion.

cloudatlas

professore wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/i-was-sexually-harassed-says-rt-weather-presenter-joanna-donnelly-36249564.html

This kind of thing is what pisses people off. I'm not referring to the anonymous letter, I'm referring to the "sexual harrassment" of some guy asking her out a few times and she saying no to him. Nothing more. Who has this not happened to, male or female, someone you don't fancy chasing you?

Calls into question the credibility of her whole narrative. Then a mention of her book at the end. Makes a mockery of genuine cases.

"I would say 'No, I'm not interested' and he would say 'well you're leading me on' and that I had smiled at him in a particular way.""

That's creepy as fuuuck in addition to the amount of times that she had to turn this nutter with a screw loose down.

Floppybits

From reading this thread all men will need to start wearing these 2 items of clothing. 
Blinkers
Male burka

Floppybits

In all seriousness though it seems Men can do nothing right, On the one hand we have women saying that they can't get man and on the other you have women, probably the same ones, saying men are not to look at me or talk to me or approach me anyway.  Yes there are men out there who believe they are god's gift and cannot understand why a woman can reject them, Why they are like that who knows? What can be done about, well I suppose there mates tell them to cop onto themselves and stop being an ars*ho*e? That might work, it may not. Ostracize them from society. 

Then there are men like me out there, probably the vast majority, that respect women, actually I would say now I am more nervous now around women that I have ever been.  It's impossible to know what to do, I have been situations in bars where I am buying a drink for myself (I don't drink so I am not drunk) and I say hello to the woman next to me to be polite, and I get told to F**k Off,  I wasn't even hitting on them.  Was I wrong? Should I have just turned my back on her and be rude? Now I wont even approach a woman in a bar for fear of what could happen, and I think this is what this campaign is doing. You have the nice respectful guys that wont approach women now for fear of what they could be accused off, So that leaves the women with the Men that don't give a flying F**k what women think, they only care about what they think of themselves and what they are worthy of. 

I read on her that someone said why do men not go into gay bars, I have been in gay bars and I can tell you I have never ever been assaulted like I have been in "straight bars", yes I was approached, chatted up and all advances were rejected politely and firmly and I didn't feel threatened.  Compare that to when I worked in a bar and there I was subjected to not just having my bum pinched, which didn't bother me, but my arms were felt, crotch was grabbed painfully, chest felt, women coming up behind and wrapping their arms around me to feel my chest and I was suppose to just laugh at this. Where as if I did that I could be reported for sexual harassment or worse sexual assault.

Floppybits

__..__ wrote: »

I wonder if she tweeted #METOO
But was it about the driver whondid nothing wrong except probably save a life, or me, who she didn't see at all looking at her hotpants thinking jesus they look very tight for jogging.

By the way I have to declare here that she was in no way attractive.  It was.ourely that someone would jog in hotpants that distracted me.

Those jogging hot pants are the devil.

professore

Floppybits wrote: »

In all seriousness though it seems Men can do nothing right, On the one hand we have women saying that they can't get man and on the other you have women, probably the same ones, saying men are not to look at me or talk to me or approach me anyway.  Yes there are men out there who believe they are god's gift and cannot understand why a woman can reject them, Why they are like that who knows? What can be done about, well I suppose there mates tell them to cop onto themselves and stop being an ars*ho*e? That might work, it may not. Ostracize them from society. 

Then there are men like me out there, probably the vast majority, that respect women, actually I would say now I am more nervous now around women that I have ever been.  It's impossible to know what to do, I have been situations in bars where I am buying a drink for myself (I don't drink so I am not drunk) and I say hello to the woman next to me to be polite, and I get told to F**k Off,  I wasn't even hitting on them.  Was I wrong? Should I have just turned my back on her and be rude? Now I wont even approach a woman in a bar for fear of what could happen, and I think this is what this campaign is doing. You have the nice respectful guys that wont approach women now for fear of what they could be accused off, So that leaves the women with the Men that don't give a flying F**k what women think, they only care about what they think of themselves and what they are worthy of. 

I read on her that someone said why do men not go into gay bars, I have been in gay bars and I can tell you I have never ever been assaulted like I have been in "straight bars", yes I was approached, chatted up and all advances were rejected politely and firmly and I didn't feel threatened.  Compare that to when I worked in a bar and there I was subjected to not just having my bum pinched, which didn't bother me, but my arms were felt, crotch was grabbed painfully, chest felt, women coming up behind and wrapping their arms around me to feel my chest and I was suppose to just laugh at this. Where as if I did that I could be reported for sexual harassment or worse sexual assault.

Being told "Do you want to f**king get up on me altogether" by a woman sitting down at a table beside the dance floor where I was dancing with my back to her and hadn't even seen she was there was a recent "pleasant" experience I had. Maybe "sorry but you are bumping into me" would have been more appropriate. If she can't get a man then I'm not surprised. Although there seemed to be a guy with her with a "kill me now" expression on his face so I don't know. And I'm sure people will say "maybe she was having a bad day" etc etc ... but men are not allowed bad days.

professore

Men can't "wear what they want" the way women can.

In an office environment there is a VERY LIMITED range of clothing which is acceptable for men to wear. Women have far more latitude.

Tech companies being the obvious exception to this.

A Little Pony

A Little Pony wrote: »

Another pointless social media nonsense which will be forgotten about in a few days time. Pretty much like #prayfor rubbish.

#prayformojo

Floppybits

BrownFinger wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Another pointless social media nonsense which will be forgotten about in a few days time. Pretty much like #prayfor rubbish.

#prayformojo

Mojo is boxed and can only come out by appointment.

seamus

professore wrote: »

Men can't "wear what they want" the way women can.

In an office environment there is a VERY LIMITED range of clothing which is acceptable for men to wear. Women have far more latitude.

Men don't fight for it.

Male office fashion is also far more restrained than women's. There are hundreds of variants of women's styles, and a wide range of colours.

Men's by comparison are pretty much "flat". With the exception of wearing a shirt which may be a little bit bright, it's a darkish suit with a plain shirt and a matching tie.

A man who wanted to, could easily take the cue from women and go to work in a bright white or mustard suit with a patterned shirt. It's within any dress code. This would be perfectly normal for a woman to do, but men choose not to. Fear of rocking the boat, or whatever.

And yes, one could argue social pressure makes men not wear a flamboyant suit. But back in the 70's, the only acceptable office wear for women was a skirt and heels. It's only by pushing against social pressure that you can invoke change. Women have a wider variety of what's acceptable to wear, because women pushed back and constantly pushed the boundaries.

Men haven't.

professore

professore wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/i-was-sexually-harassed-says-rt-weather-presenter-joanna-donnelly-36249564.html

This kind of thing is what pisses people off. I'm not referring to the anonymous letter, I'm referring to the "sexual harrassment" of some guy asking her out a few times and she saying no to him. Nothing more. Who has this not happened to, male or female, someone you don't fancy chasing you?

Calls into question the credibility of her whole narrative. Then a mention of her book at the end. Makes a mockery of genuine cases.

First of all, Joanna Donnelly has not written a book. She was making a semi-serious point, ridiculing the fact that if she ever writes about these and other experiences, she'll have to change the names to protect the guilty parties.

Second of all, her experience with a colleague does seem to have been harassment ... by the legal definition of that term, as well as its dictionary definition.

If Joanna Donnelly's recounting this persistent experience *in the workplace*, which sounds pretty awkward and stressful, bothers you so much, you might want to ask yourself 'what is it about her experience that bothers me so much?'

Floppybits wrote: »

In all seriousness though it seems Men can do nothing right,

Why is it, that anytime people raise the serious topics of sexual harassment and sexual assault, people immediately criticise the victims by turning themselves into victims?

I'm a man, I've never gotten the impression from a woman that I can 'do nothing right'. Neither does a hashtag (which, by the way, men are using too) give me that impression.

There's a bizarre amount of insecurity on this thread, and on social media, in response to those who have experienced sexual harassment/ abuse.

Everyone reacts to such experiences differently. Some people shrug off unwanted attention, others are more stressed by it. In serious cases, it can be deeply traumatising. Either way, anyone who has experienced sexual harassment or sexual abuse is harming nobody (including 'men') by coming forward and speaking out.

I've read a lot of this thread, maybe too much of it, and I cannot fathom why so many people are upset about a hashtag (whilst they themselves, ironically enough, hiss about 'snowflakes' getting offended)

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I think it's important to listen to the reasonable male voices on this thread too, it can be easy to get exasperated and distracted by the others.

This thread is no more representative of men, IME, than random nutters on Twitter are representative of the people posting #MeToo.

Boards in general would have you convinced there's a literal gender war going on out there. With grenades and stuf.

Benildus

Seeing all of these #metoo posts from women that have been sexually abused or assaulted that have been popping up on social media has got me feeling a lot. Mostly sadness.

I’ve felt like I wanted to share something on the topic and couldn’t quite figure out exactly what, or even if it was my place to do so, and then I saw my sister share a #metoo post and even though it wasn’t very serious it’s prompted me to share. It was also partly inspired by a beautiful post from my bro Adam

To all women, on behalf of all men, I’m Sorry. We’re going to do better. We’re going to be better.

Working in the transformational space over the last few years has bought to my awareness just how much physical, mental, emotional and sexual abuse actually occurs in our society. Both male and female victims. It’s shocking. This post is more about the healing of the wounds inflicted on to so many women.

What’s happened to women collectively over the course of history is pretty painful to think about. The years of oppression, abuse, harassment, inequality.. We don’t have any excuses for what we’ve done. When we actually sit with it. We’re ****ing embarrassed about it and we’re carrying a lot of guilt - often subconsciously.

Young boys not shown how to become men.

Young boys with hurt hearts that weren’t held. Young boys with anger that wasn’t expressed. Scared young boys who weren’t shown how to create safety. Young boys that were hurt and abused when they were suppose to be loved. Not shown how to be with their emotions (and desires), not shown how to express things, bottling it all up.

Bottling it all up only works for so long. Eventually - one way or another it all comes out. If it can’t be expressed consciously in a healthy way it’s going to come out unconsciously in an unhealthy and harmful way. That’s why so often drugs and alcohol are involved.

There’s one phrase that keeps popping into my head. It’s that hurt people hurt people. What must a human have endured to be able to do these kinds of things to another human? Often the abuser has been abused - and the cycle goes on. In no way, shape or form is this an excuse for the abuse and pain that has been inflicted. But it does create some context for how a man could do such a thing. It’s time to break this cycle. It’s time to change the story.

The wounded masculine has a lot to answer for, no doubt. He also needs a lot of love and nurturing if he’s going to be able to grow and develop into the sacred masculine that women and the world needs so desperately right now.

Anger won’t fix anger. Abuse won’t fix abuse. Love might help though.

It’s amazing to see so many women being vulnerable enough to share, and create space for others to do the same. Thank you. Raising awareness and bringing it into the light is the only way to move forward.

…

So what do can we do now?

Right now there’s a generation of boys not being guided into manhood and girls not being guided into womanhood. Boys that don’t know what it means to be a man. And girls that don’t know how to be women. Boys that aren’t learning to respect themselves or their counterpart, women not learning how to say no and respect themselves. A generation where the primary education around sex is from the pornography industry, and so they don’t know any different.

Let’s keep working on our own **** so we don’t carry it forward. So we can start to guide some of these young people into the next phase of their life in a healthy and empowering way. Let’s keep the conversation open and keep creating space for people to own, integrate and love all parts of themselves.

To share a positive light on this painful topic, there are so many guys right now who are battling their demons and working on themselves so they can show up better for the world and the women their life. The shift has started, maybe we just need to add a bit more fuel to the fire and get this train really moving.

And so, to all women, on behalf of all men, I’m Sorry. We’re going to do better. We’re going to be better.

**since posting this the wording of a few aspects of it have been bought to my attention. The first was referring to my sisters post as "not that serious", this was the general vibe/wording she had when discussing it with me but I agree with the people who pointed out that every incident like this is serious and needs to be treated accordingly.
The second was that "women aren't being taught how to say no and respect themselves". Definitely a better word would have been "honour themselves". I included this part not because of assumptions I'd made but because of direct conversations with multiple women (mainly younger - under 25) who bought it to my attention. In no way was this to lay any of the blame for these events on the women that are victims to them. Hope this gives some clarity.

TL;DR: Bellend posted the above on FB

Floppybits

Floppybits wrote: »

In all seriousness though it seems Men can do nothing right,

Why is it, that anytime people raise the serious topics of sexual harassment and sexual assault, people immediately criticise the victims by turning themselves into victims?

I'm a man, I've never gotten the impression from a woman that I can 'do nothing right'. Neither does a hashtag (which, by the way, men are using too) give me that impression.

There's a bizarre amount of insecurity on this thread, and on social media, in response to those who have experienced sexual harassment/ abuse. "
I don't think it is insecurity at all, I think it is confusion as to what is acceptable and what is not? If I approach a woman in a bar and say "hi how are you? how is the night going?" and she reponds "great thanks, how is yours? and conversation starts" all well and good but I do that on another night to another woman and that woman could perceive that as sexual harassment, now as far as I am concerned I wouldn't see it as such but it is not about how I perceive it is it about how the other person does?  Now people on here may think the second woman is a bit too sensitive and needs to take a look at herself, where as other people may take the view that it was sexual harassment, and this why I said "Men can do nothing right", it is a minefield, one approach is seen as ok by one person and not by the other, what are you to do? 
Also you can see on here some women get offended at cat calling or wolf whistling and some take it as compliment and other wish that they would get a wolf whistle or cat called every now and then. I think cat calling and wolf whistling is a bit juvenile really and any male doing above the age of 21 needs to grow up.

seamus

Floppybits wrote: »

I don't think it is insecurity at all, I think it is confusion as to what is acceptable and what is not? If I approach a woman in a bar and say "hi how are you? how is the night going?" and she reponds "great thanks, how is yours? and conversation starts" all well and good but I do that on another night to another woman and that woman could perceive that as sexual harassment, now as far as I am concerned I wouldn't see it as such but it is not about how I perceive it is it about how the other person does?  Now people on here may think the second woman is a bit too sensitive and needs to take a look at herself, where as other people may take the view that it was sexual harassment, and this why I said "Men can do nothing right", it is a minefield, one approach is seen as ok by one person and not by the other, what are you to do?

Context. It's all about context.

If a person cannot read the behavioural or social cues that give you an idea that someone is open to being "chatted up", then you should probably not do it.

A woman at the bar, who seems relaxed and is with friends, will probably be open for a conversation. She's out for a bit of craic, she knows why you're coming up to talk to her. "Maybe meet a nice guy" is part of her agenda for the night, so you're already a few steps up.

If that's not part of her agenda and she just wants to chat to her mates, then one should be capable of reading the cues. Saying "Hi, how are you", is never going to be sexual harassment. It becomes harassment when one continues pushing the conversation despite her clear disinterest in having a conversation. Or worse, coming up to her later on. And again. And again.

A woman standing at a bus stop, or in line at Tesco, or in work, or going through airport security, or any other of a million other places that are mundane daily things, does probably not have "maybe meet a nice guy" top of their agenda for that day. So a guy coming up and talking to her is going to get a more guarded response by default. "Hi, how are you?" will never be sexual harassment, but she will think - just like you would - "Ugh, what do you want? I'm in no mood for making smalltalk, just go away. Please".

Again, context. Some social awareness, don't go chatting up women who are clearly in no mood for a chat, even if you think you're most charming motherfncker in the world. Don't keep trying to have a conversation with someone who is clearly not "conversing". This is the easy one; single-word responses or forced smiles are a pretty good "that's nice, please stop talking to me" indicator. Sometimes you will encounter a woman who is open to the conversation. And that's cool.

If you want to turn it into a male-positive message - have some respect for yourself. Pushing a conversation on a woman who's not interested, is sad and pathetic. There's a school of thought which tells men to "chase", that woman need convincing and that they play "hard to get" by default. The men who subscribe to this message clearly have no respect for themselves, they will bend over backwards to to plead with a woman who is not interested. If she's not interested, drop it. To do anything else disrespects you and the woman that you're annoying. And that applies in all scenarios, whether it's on the street or in a bar. Chatting up women at random in the street? Sad. Constantly throwing shapes at a woman in a bar who's clearly not interested? Pathetic.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Like literally every other human interaction, people are going to react to an approach differently depending on a million different things. Their mood, their character, their culture, the fact that you remind them of someone, their previous experiences, how long they've been queueing for a pint. Same as if you crack a joke, ask for directions, start talking about politics, swear casually. You'll piss some people off, delight some people, some people will forget about it two seconds later. There is no absolute right way to approach women because women are different from each other. Women are different from each other. Women. Are different. From each other.

Negotiating being approached, which most women have been doing since early adolescence, is also a minefield. You don't know how someone will react to rejection, you don't want to wrongly assume someone's chatting you up when they're being friendly, nor do you want to get landed with the "I'm just being friendly" guy all night. There are some men who will miss or ignore every social cue up to you saying "I don't want to talk to you, sorry, bye" and then call you every name under the sun for being rude.

And there is no one answer or strategy any man can give for how to deal with the situation because men are different from each other. And yes it can simetimes feel like you can't do anything right. All you can do is read the interaction based on your previous interactions, intuition and so on. Take each one as it comes and accept that you're going to annoy and upset some people and that you're going to meet some gobshítes.

server down

XiJinping wrote: »

I did it purely as an exercise to increase confidence a few times, never imagined it would actually go well

You got a video out soon, don’t you? Or a YouTube channel?

server down

What Seamas says sounds great, until you realise that he is reducing the opportunities to meet people to a bar or pub. Maybe a dating app.

0ph0rce0

I see Harry Styles was sexually assaulted

https://www.joe.ie/music/footage-emerged-fan-groping-harry-styles-performed-stage-604546

What a ****ing joke of a world we live in now.

Look at the comments on twitter. Madness

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

I see Harry Styles was sexually assaulted

https://www.joe.ie/music/footage-emerged-fan-groping-harry-styles-performed-stage-604546

What a ****ing joke of a world we live in now.

Look at the comments on twitter. Madness

What, the joke of a world where you're not supposed to grab strangers by the d1ck?

0ph0rce0

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

What, the joke of a world where you're not supposed to grab strangers by the d1ck?

He got down to the crowd, he's a celebrity, Hands are everywhere. Not like anyone pulled his knob out and wanked him off.

A load of oul bollocks

Floppybits

server down wrote: »

What Seamas says sounds great, until you realise that he is reducing the opportunities to meet people to a bar or pub. Maybe a dating app.

Soon it will be dating by appointment only.

seamus

server down wrote: »

What Seamas says sounds great, until you realise that he is reducing the opportunities to meet people to a bar or pub. Maybe a dating app.

Yes. That's pretty much it. Opportunities to meet strangers, that is. Because, believe it or not, most people don't really want strangers talking to them in public, never mind chatting them up. How many couples have a story that starts with, "Well, I was going through airport security and he asked me for my number, and the rest is history". There's one of them for every 1,000 stories that start with, "We met in school/college/work/through friends".

By a massive margin, people still "meet people" through social activities which build familiarity rather than assume sexual tension - socialising with friends, working, shared hobbies, school/college/training courses.

Where the two people were previously strangers, a bar or other "sexualised" social setting is the preferred venue by a country mile, because, again, people just want to go about their ordinary day without being chatted up or having to chat up.

Online and dating apps are a huge source now because they remove the guesswork. The only people involved are those who want to be. As much as people complain about them being sausagefests, they've massively improved the hit ratio for the majority of men. The guy who manages to land one "date" a month, even if it's just a short-lived drink with a woman, is probably doing 10-20 times better than he would have 20 twenty years ago trying to chat up random women at the bus stop.