#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Lone Stone

i seen it around facebook a few ppl i know posting it, but does this mean you were molested as a kid or sexually abused, raped or what ? like it's pretty unclear to me eh cause i dont pay attention to this stuff.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hatrickpatrick

Grayson wrote: »

How is a thread about sexual assault turns into women being sissys

Because this thread is not about sexual assault, it's about a hashtag. And that hashtag is being used to talk about everything from sexual assault to a TSA agent politely asking somebody for their phone number as a come-on.

See what happens when the line between genuine sexual assault and totally ordinary, harmless behaviour which a minority of hypersensitive muppets take massive offence to becomes as blurred as this?

See my analogy about alcoholism a few pages back. When those who campaign against genuine alcoholism start to include a person who has three pints of beer on a night out in their definition of a problem drinker, their entire message and their entire credibility goes out the window as people stop taking anything they say seriously. That's exactly what's happening to this hashtag, and sadly by extension, this much needed conversation about genuine sexual assault.

LLMMLL

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm not talking about situations where you get talking to a woman at a picnic randomly. You could easily get talking to a male colleague at a work event randomly. If you're standing at a bus stop, the bus is late , you make a comment to the woman next to you about the bus being late, you get chatting and things move from there. That's all fine. Could easily happen with two.men having a nice chat while waiting for the bus.

The example I gave of a female friend being harassed a few weeks ago was a guy approached her and said "I think you're beautiful can I have your number". He then continued bothering her after she said no but that initial approach is creepy.

I wonder how many of your and the other poster who met his gf at an airports friends made that kind of approach? I'm betting they all got talking in a friendly manner to these women over some random comment that they might easily have made to another male.

Basically if you approach a woman going about her daily business with he intention of coming onto her it's creepy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

LLMMLL

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What were the interactions. Did you rock up to her at a work event and ask for her number Where you had previously only had professional conversations? Or had you had multiple friendly conversations previous to that where she was clearly flirting?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

LLMMLL

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Right so you got talking to a colleague at a party and this eventually led to a sexual/romantic nature. Its really not the same thing as approaching a stranger And propositioning them straight away.

As for being her boss, I would call that more inappropriate workplace behaviour on your part than creepy. Presumably she gave plenty of signals that she was interested before it developed.

Where a boss situation would be creepy woild be if there were no signals given that the employee was interested. Most people can read these signals. Tight smiles when chatting. Trying to bring conversations to an end etc.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm not talking about situations where you get talking to a woman at a picnic randomly. You could easily get talking to a male colleague at a work event randomly. If you're standing at a bus stop, the bus is late , you make a comment to the woman next to you about the bus being late, you get chatting and things move from there. That's all fine. Could easily happen with two.men having a nice chat while waiting for the bus.

The example I gave of a female friend being harassed a few weeks ago was a guy approached her and said "I think you're beautiful can I have your number". He then continued bothering her after she said no but that initial approach is creepy.

I wonder how many of your and the other poster who met his gf at an airports friends made that kind of approach? I'm betting they all got talking in a friendly manner to these women over some random comment that they might easily have made to another male.

Basically if you approach a woman going about her daily business with he intention of coming onto her it's creepy.

Em, sorry.. what?! In the cases the lads gave, I'm sure they were thinking before starting their interaction.. 'this girl is quite nice looking'. If you seriously think a guy, seeing a beautiful woman in an everyday situation and saying hello (or something else to start a conversation) is creepy.. you've got some issues.

Does it occur to you that said woman, may find the guy attractive and welcome the starting up of conversation? As long as the guy picks up whatever cues are being given, i.e. keep talking or go away, then what's the problem?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Right so you got talking to a colleague at a party and this eventually led to a sexual/romantic nature. Its really not the same thing as approaching a stranger And propositioning them straight away.

And that's an important difference. It's creepy when someone speaks about sex from the beginning, and obviously, expects a relationship to be a sexual relationship...

As for being her boss, I would call that more inappropriate workplace behaviour on your part than creepy. Presumably she gave plenty of signals that she was interested before it developed.

As you've seen on boards, and (hopefully in life) that peoples perception of events differs often in drastically different directions. You view his relationship in the workplace as being inappropriate. Whereas I think that they were two consenting adults (with the option of using the law to protect them against unwanted advances). His employer didn't have any rules against, and he still informed hus superiors, so it was hardly inappropiate.

Where a boss situation would be creepy woild be if there were no signals given that the employee was interested. Most people can read these signals. Tight smiles when chatting. Trying to bring conversations to an end etc.

Body language is a marketing gimmick. Does it work? Sure. Sometimes. For some people. In some cultures. In some circumstances. Is it a reliable guide to someone's thoughts? Nope.

Most people learn to read others to a certain level, but it's hardly reliable. There are simply too many factors to take into account unless you're willing to spend all your time developing it as a primary skill, and even then it remains inaccurate.

The example I gave of a female friend being harassed a few weeks ago was a guy approached her and said "I think you're beautiful can I have your number". He then continued bothering her after she said no but that initial approach is creepy.

If he had complimented her honestly, and withdrawn when she refused, it probably wouldn't have been creepy.

These things come down to both individuals perceptions, how they're feeling at that given time and the manner in which an approach is made. If the guy is seeking sex, the vast majority of women will pick that up from his manner and tone. If he's being honest and confident without drawing an agenda, there's a good chance that the woman will take it as the compliment it was intended to be. Some women won't. You can't cater to everyone.

But any pestering, repeat behavior etc in the face of a refusal is creepy. (Regardless of whether its a man or a woman doing it.)

Five years ago, I worked in a school where I asked my boss out for dating. She initially refused, I stepped back without acting hurt or stupid, and a week later she asked me out. We spent three years together.

The way people behave and their expectations determine how creepy something is. Not the act in itself... although I'm sure we can both find some acts that are always creepy regardless of who performs it. Asking a girl out shouldn't automatically be one of them. It's already difficult enough without adding more.

__..__

Lone Stone wrote: »

i seen it around facebook a few ppl i know posting it, but does this mean you were molested as a kid or sexually abused, raped or what ? like it's pretty unclear to me eh cause i dont pay attention to this stuff.

It means a man has at least looked at them during their lives. Don't look at or speak to a woman again and you'll be ok.

professore

anewme wrote: »

professore wrote: »

LIFE is uncomfortable. Try watching someone you love die in front of you. Now that's ****ing uncomfortable and painful.

That's all the more reason not to make life uncomfortable for someone else. Currently, I go to work, long hours, then to visit someone in hospital who won't be coming home.

Any unwanted comments, or unwanted harassment is not welcome and will be met with a fairly negative response.

You don't kniw what anyone else is going through.

Be kind, always.

That works both ways. Maybe what you see as negative comments or attention are someone just looking to chat, or glancing a microsecond too long at your boobs. Maybe they are trying to read some dumb text written across your t-shirt or ass, or get a better look at a tattoo. Maybe they mistake you for someone else they banter with like an old friend. Maybe they've just caught their girlfriend in bed with their best friend and aren't in a charitable mood to women. Who knows?

professore

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

How to handle sexual comments, Commitments-style.

Deco: "I've a bugle here you can blow on."
Natalie: "I've an arse here you can kiss."[/quote]
Both are guilty of sexual harassment. #MeToo

professore

Deleted User wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Right so you got talking to a colleague at a party and this eventually led to a sexual/romantic nature. Its really not the same thing as approaching a stranger And propositioning them straight away.

And that's an important difference. It's creepy when someone speaks about sex from the beginning, and obviously, expects a relationship to be a sexual relationship...

As for being her boss, I would call that more inappropriate workplace behaviour on your part than creepy. Presumably she gave plenty of signals that she was interested before it developed.

As you've seen on boards, and (hopefully in life) that peoples perception of events differs often in drastically different directions. You view his relationship in the workplace as being inappropriate. Whereas I think that they were two consenting adults (with the option of using the law to protect them against unwanted advances). His employer didn't have any rules against, and he still informed hus superiors, so it was hardly inappropiate.

Where a boss situation would be creepy woild be if there were no signals given that the employee was interested. Most people can read these signals. Tight smiles when chatting. Trying to bring conversations to an end etc.

Body language is a marketing gimmick. Does it work? Sure. Sometimes. For some people. In some cultures. In some circumstances. Is it a reliable guide to someone's thoughts? Nope.

Most people learn to read others to a certain level, but it's hardly reliable. There are simply too many factors to take into account unless you're willing to spend all your time developing it as a primary skill, and even then it remains inaccurate.

The example I gave of a female friend being harassed a few weeks ago was a guy approached her and said "I think you're beautiful can I have your number". He then continued bothering her after she said no but that initial approach is creepy.

If he had complimented her honestly, and withdrawn when she refused, it probably wouldn't have been creepy.

These things come down to both individuals perceptions, how they're feeling at that given time and the manner in which an approach is made. If the guy is seeking sex, the vast majority of women will pick that up from his manner and tone. If he's being honest and confident without drawing an agenda, there's a good chance that the woman will take it as the compliment it was intended to be. Some women won't. You can't cater to everyone.

But any pestering, repeat behavior etc in the face of a refusal is creepy. (Regardless of whether its a man or a woman doing it.)

Five years ago, I worked in a school where I asked my boss out for dating. She initially refused, I stepped back without acting hurt or stupid, and a week later she asked me out. We spent three years together.

The way people behave and their expectations determine how creepy something is. Not the act in itself... although I'm sure we can both find some acts that are always creepy regardless of who performs it. Asking a girl out shouldn't automatically be one of them. It's already difficult enough without adding more.

There are a million reasons a woman doesn't go out with you initially when you first ask her. All depends on the context. You can't make hard and fast rules about human relationships.

neonsofa

professore wrote: »

Maybe they've just caught their girlfriend in bed with their best friend and aren't in a charitable mood to women. Who knows?

Lol, not leering at a woman is charitable

The other day two guys quite loudly rated me out of 10. They debated whether I lost a mark or not for the fact I seemed stuck up. Stuck up cause I wasn't smiling at them while I listened to them rate my appearance. I didn't deserve that just because they may have been annoyed at their girlfriend for sleeping with someone. It doesn't justify it. I don't treat men like **** just because I've been wronged by men in the past or treat all people with the name Kelly like **** because a Kelly wronged me in the past. What a strange argument.

B0jangles

professore wrote: »

That works both ways. Maybe what you see as negative comments or attention are someone just looking to chat, or glancing a microsecond too long at your boobs. Maybe they are trying to read some dumb text written across your t-shirt or ass, or get a better look at a tattoo. Maybe they mistake you for someone else they banter with like an old friend. Maybe they've just caught their girlfriend in bed with their best friend and aren't in a charitable mood to women. Who knows?

The poster you quoted was suggesting that if in any doubt whatsoever, leave people alone, don't assume they want to interact with you. Frankly, they owe you (or any other randomer on the street) nothing, not even a scrap of attention.

No-one, no matter what their state of mind* or how good their intentions are, is entitled to be listened to, or have attention paid to them by random people who catch their eye. A polite brush-off is a bonus, but again, it's not something to be expected.

If you force someone to pay attention to you, you don't get to act all aggrieved when they tell you to piss off.


*except for the obvious, hardly-need-to-be-stated exception of persons in deep distress like for example if they are experiencing suicidal thoughts.

engol

professore wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/i-was-sexually-harassed-says-rt-weather-presenter-joanna-donnelly-36249564.html

This kind of thing is what pisses people off. I'm not referring to the anonymous letter, I'm referring to the "sexual harrassment" of some guy asking her out a few times and she saying no to him. Nothing more. Who has this not happened to, male or female, someone you don't fancy chasing you?

Calls into question the credibility of her whole narrative. Then a mention of her book at the end. Makes a mockery of genuine cases.

Just so that you are 100% on this; repeatedly asking a colleague out, in the work place, and not taking a definitive no for an answer (can't believe I have to spell this out) IS harassment and is most definitely not allowed. And, "who has this not happened to" is the whole point of the #MeToo campaign. The WHOLE point.

There is no book, the point of the reference to the book title "names have been changed to protect the guilty" is a point in itself. We read the line "names have been changed to protect the innocent" without ever ever questioning why the innocent need protecting. But here comes the point again, the reason they need protecting is because they are routinely turned in to the guilty party. For complaining. And this is across the spectrum, from annoying requests for dates to physical violence.

engol

engol wrote: »

Just so that you are 100% on this; repeatedly asking a colleague out, in the work place, and not taking a definitive no for an answer (can't believe I have to spell this out) IS harassment and is most definitely not allowed. And, "who has this not happened to" is the whole point of the #MeToo campaign. The WHOLE point.

The magic word is repeatedly. Doing it once isn't harassment. Even doing it twice isn't harassment unless the person has been very obvious in their rejection.

But you're right. If anyone gives a definitive refusal, then any further behavior is harassment and is wrong.

B0jangles

Waterford Whispers have done a piece about the reaction to #metoo

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/10/23/ladies-youre-going-to-want-to-hear-my-opinion-on-this-metoo-business/

No comment.

(lol)

midlandsmissus

__..__ wrote: »

Lone Stone wrote: »

i seen it around facebook a few ppl i know posting it, but does this mean you were molested as a kid or sexually abused, raped or what ? like it's pretty unclear to me eh cause i dont pay attention to this stuff.

Hi

It means a man has at least looked at them during their lives. Don't look at or speak to a woman again and you'll be ok.

Oh f*CK off. I hate this 'oblivious' ****.
I'm just reading an article from an Irish woman on why she used #metoo. She said in her primary school, the principal would call them up one at a time to the desk to recite something, and that each of the students spent the time trying to dodge his fingers under the desk.
This has happened to all of us, touching, not looking, not talking. I refuse to live in a world where this happens anymore or to listen to entitled men who dismiss it out of hand.
The time has come where women will no longer be treated the way they were.

midlandsmissus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There's a good recent book called Grit by Angela Duckworth, the takeaway message of which is that the smartest or the most talented people aren't necessarily those who succeed in life. It's those who are resilient and determined, who persevere even when they encounter setbacks.

But we're not teaching young people to be resilient. Quite the opposite. We're protecting them with safe spaces and trigger warnings. We're teaching women to feel traumatized if somebody stares at their boobs on the bus or whistles at them on the street. We're teaching people in general to be weak, fearful victims.

This isn't positive for anybody. Women and minorities included.[/quote]
Dismissive **** again.
All the women who say Hollywood producers touched them/raped them
All the women who say #metoo to describe sexual assaults.
What the **** are you talking about?
You are adding to the abuse of women. Shame on you

__..__

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Oh f*CK off. I hate this 'oblivious' ****.
I'm just reading an article from an Irish woman on why she used #metoo. She said in her primary school, the principal would call them up one at a time to the desk to recite something, and that each of the students spent the time trying to dodge his fingers under the desk.
This has happened to all of us, touching, not looking, not talking. I refuse to live in a world where this happens anymore or to listen to entitled men who dismiss it out of hand.
The time has come where women will no longer be treated the way they were.

Please treat us all with respect here if you don't mind. Nobody swore at you please don't swear at me.

givyjoe

__..__ wrote: »

Please treat us all with respect here if you don't mind. Nobody swore at you please don't swear at me.

Best to avoid the whackadoodle posts, by posters who periodically re-appear, spout bile.. cause a ruckus and then disappear again.

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Oh f*CK off. I hate this 'oblivious' ****.
I'm just reading an article from an Irish woman on why she used #metoo. She said in her primary school, the principal would call them up one at a time to the desk to recite something, and that each of the students spent the time trying to dodge his fingers under the desk.

Any idea on as to when this happened? Recently? or twenty/thirty years ago?

This has happened to all of us, touching, not looking, not talking. I refuse to live in a world where this happens anymore or to listen to entitled men who dismiss it out of hand.

And you don't have to. You haven't had to in a very long time. Women's rights are established. The laws are already there to protect women from abuse.

The time has come where women will no longer be treated the way they were.

That time has been here for at least two decades. You talk as if you're living in a society where men have the upper hand everywhere and are abusing women left right and center. That's not the case, and the potential for that happening has been reducing as society adapts to those changes.

Sexual harassment laws are in place. Sexual abuse laws are in place. The issue is whether women choose to turn to the law and use that protection.

Buford T. Justice XIX

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Oh f*CK off. I hate this 'oblivious' ****.
I'm just reading an article from an Irish woman on why she used #metoo. She said in her primary school, the principal would call them up one at a time to the desk to recite something, and that each of the students spent the time trying to dodge his fingers under the desk.
This has happened to all of us, touching, not looking, not talking. I refuse to live in a world where this happens anymore or to listen to entitled men who dismiss it out of hand.
The time has come where women will no longer be treated the way they were.

Mod note: Easy now. Less insulting of other posters will go a long way in keeping this thread open for the debate to continue and your continued participation in it. It also deracts from the points you are trying to make.

Buford T. Justice.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Em, sorry.. what?! In the cases the lads gave, I'm sure they were thinking before starting their interaction.. 'this girl is quite nice looking'. If you seriously think a guy, seeing a beautiful woman in an everyday situation and saying hello (or something else to start a conversation) is creepy.. you've got some issues.

Does it occur to you that said woman, may find the guy attractive and welcome the starting up of conversation? As long as the guy picks up whatever cues are being given, i.e. keep talking or go away, then what's the problem?

I think you're pretending you don't know the difference between a normal approach and a creepy one.

Say this guy arrives at his work picnic. There are 30 people there spread out maybe in little subgroups. He marches straight over to the best looking woman who he's never met before and introduces himself and starts flirting. Creepy. And I'm betting that's not the way it happened.

Other possible situation: they're both standing near each other alone and get chatting about how they hate work parties or something. Not creepy.

You can pretend all situations are the same and ignore nuance all you want. But we're not talking about the same thing.

As for whether the woman welcomes it, well that's the question isn't it. Why are so many women posting about how these things bother them if they welcome it? Why was brie Larson annoyed at being asked out by airport security?

Basically women can't win with you. You claim they like being asked out and faced with many examples that they don't like being approached in certain contexts then what? Something wrong with brie Larson and co? Too sensitive?

Sofiztikated

Mrs Sofiztikated was away with the girls this past weekend, for her sisters hen party.

She was feeling good in her skin, and as women do, she wore a nice dress.

She said it was one of the worst nights she had in a long time, for unwanted attention. Tits were groped repeatedly, and not just passing glances, but full on squeezing, often from behind meaning someone had to get close enough behind her and reaching around her. Her arse was grabbed virtually every time she was on the dance floor.

A guy was annoying her so much that she had to escape to the toilet. When she came out, he was outside it waiting for her. She went back in, and had to ring the girls to come and get her. She's well to handle herself, and is well fit to throw a dig that would hurt most men, but she was worried enough to call for help.

And this was all concentrated into a 5 hour span.

Say what you want, there's far too many people that think **** like that is acceptable, or pass it off as harmless or not threatening.

One eyed Jack

B0jangles wrote: »

The poster you quoted was suggesting that if in any doubt whatsoever, leave people alone, don't assume they want to interact with you. Frankly, they owe you (or any other randomer on the street) nothing, not even a scrap of attention.

No-one, no matter what their state of mind* or how good their intentions are, is entitled to be listened to, or have attention paid to them by random people who catch their eye. A polite brush-off is a bonus, but again, it's not something to be expected.

If you force someone to pay attention to you, you don't get to act all aggrieved when they tell you to piss off.


*except for the obvious, hardly-need-to-be-stated exception of persons in deep distress like for example if they are experiencing suicidal thoughts.

I agree with what you're saying here, that nobody is entitled to be listened to, I don't agree that there should be any exclusions made though. This is why nobody, no matter what their state of mind or how good their intentions, should expect to be listened to, much less taken seriously, let alone believed, when they come out with stuff like this -

kylith wrote: »

Have you not been paying attention?

We get whistled and shouted at in the street.
We get groped in pubs.
We get cornered by men who will not take no for an answer, or who get aggressive when rejected.
We have it drummed into us from the time we hit puberty: 'don't be alone with a man'
Every man on a quiet street is a potential threat
Every man walking behind us could be a rapist
Men we don't know are threats
Men we do know are even bigger threats
The single biggest threat to women is men

As you said, when you force people to pay attention, you don't get to act all aggrieved when they tell you to piss off.

I'm not going to tell Kylith to piss off though, and the reason I do listen to her is because she doesn't normally come out with that kind of crap. If a complete stranger were to come out with that sort of crap, I'd have no qualms about telling them to piss off. It's not that men aren't listening or that they don't believe. It's what they're expected to listen to and believe, is the problem.

Why should anyone have to listen to that?

B0jangles

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying here, that nobody is entitled to be listened to, I don't agree that there should be any exclusions made though. This is why nobody, no matter what their state of mind or how good their intentions, should expect to be listened to, much less taken seriously, let alone believed, when they come out with stuff like this -
As you said, when you force people to pay attention, you don't get to act all aggrieved when they tell you to piss off.

I'm not going to tell Kylith to piss off though, and the reason I do listen to her is because she doesn't normally come out with that kind of crap. If a complete stranger were to come out with that sort of crap, I'd have no qualms about telling them to piss off. It's not that men aren't listening or that they don't believe. It's what they're expected to listen to and believe, is the problem.

Why should anyone have to listen to that?

Are you comparing words on a screen with the face-to-face interactions I was talking about?

No-one can force you to read their posts, you can either put them on ignore or just scroll on by.

No matter how much you dislike and disagree with a person's posts, they cannot actually pop out of the screen and attack you.

The same cannot be said about a person who is standing right there in front of you.

I know that you know this perfectly well.

The part of Kylith's post you chose to highlight was putting in clear and simple terms the basic advice that women are given all the time - be wary, be watchful, don't put yourself in risky situations.
You see versions of it all the time in this very forum, in the slightly disguised but oh so familiar form of the unlocked car analogy.

Women are expected to simultaneously be conscious of the fact that this is a dangerous world and, for example, not to expect to be able to walk down dark streets in perfect safety but at the same time, they are paranoid and unfair and mean if they are wary of men. The core message seems to be

'Life's unfair and tough, it's foolish to think you can leave your car analogy (ie body) unlocked and not have it stolen, but at the same time you ought to trust ME because I told you I'm trustworthy'

B0jangles

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Mrs Sofiztikated was away with the girls this past weekend, for her sisters hen party.

She was feeling good in her skin, and as women do, she wore a nice dress.

She said it was one of the worst nights she had in a long time, for unwanted attention. Tits were groped repeatedly, and not just passing glances, but full on squeezing, often from behind meaning someone had to get close enough behind her and reaching around her. Her arse was grabbed virtually every time she was on the dance floor.

A guy was annoying her so much that she had to escape to the toilet. When she came out, he was outside it waiting for her. She went back in, and had to ring the girls to come and get her. She's well to handle herself, and is well fit to throw a dig that would hurt most men, but she was worried enough to call for help.

And this was all concentrated into a 5 hour span.

Say what you want, there's far too many people that think **** like that is acceptable, or pass it off as harmless or not threatening.

That's really crappy, and I'm sorry she had such a bad time

I also wanted to say that the part about the guy who had her trapped in the toilet and she had to call her friends for help? That exact scenario was recently described to me by my mother - it happened to her about 45 years ago. I just wanted to put that in there to point out that clearly not as much has changed as some want to pretend.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And that's an important difference. It's creepy when someone speaks about sex from the beginning, and obviously, expects a relationship to be a sexual relationship...

It goes beyond that. I'm not talking about some extreme weirdo who starts talking about sex straight away. I'm also talking about someone who starts chatting to you while you're scanning your shopping at the supermarket or other situations where you wouldn't expect to be approached by anyone male or female.

Body language is a marketing gimmick. Does it work? Sure. Sometimes. For some people. In some cultures. In some circumstances. Is it a reliable guide to someone's thoughts? Nope.

Lol seriously? You go up to a woman and say hi. She grimaces and says carefully "hello". You continue talking to her. She never smiles and gives one word answers. You continue talking to her, she looks angry and looks away while continuing to give one word answers.

You're saying you don't have a pretty good idea she's not interested ? No wonder women get harassed if men can't read those glaringly obvious signs to feck off.

If he had complimented her honestly, and withdrawn when she refused, it probably wouldn't have been creepy.

Nah that's still creepy. But these guys rarely withdraw. They've already broken the social norm of approaching a stranger with no good reason and they usually don't mind breaking more.

These things come down to both individuals perceptions, how they're feeling at that given time and the manner in which an approach is made. If the guy is seeking sex, the vast majority of women will pick that up from his manner and tone. If he's being honest and confident without drawing an agenda, there's a good chance that the woman will take it as the compliment it was intended to be. Some women won't. You can't cater to everyone.

I think there are some guides you can use. If you wouldn't approach a man then don't do it to a woman. For instance, waiting for a bus, bus is late, you make a comment to the woman next to you about late buses, she laughs, you get chatting. Can completely see that happening between two straight men. But a straight man wouldn't go up to a random good looking man on the street and start chatting. So don't do it to women.

Five years ago, I worked in a school where I asked my boss out for dating. She initially refused, I stepped back without acting hurt or stupid, and a week later she asked me out. We spent three years together.

Had you any prior reason to believe she was into you? Flirting? Multiple conversation ? If not then I consider that creepy. Just because it worked out for.you doesn't make it any less creepy. Many arranged marriages end with good matches. Doesn't mean it's something to aspire to

dudara

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not going to tell Kylith to piss off though, and the reason I do listen to her is because she doesn't normally come out with that kind of crap. If a complete stranger were to come out with that sort of crap, I'd have no qualms about telling them to piss off. It's not that men aren't listening or that they don't believe. It's what they're expected to listen to and believe, is the problem.

Why should anyone have to listen to that?

I've been reading this thread with interest for a while, but in lurking mode up to now. Your response to kylith though has made me want to post.

What she has posted is not cr*p as far as a lot of women are concerned. I think you would have to search extremely hard to find one woman on the planet who has not been made feel uncomfortable by a man at some stage.

This does not mean that all men are sex-pests or rapists - far from it - and I definitely do not subscribe to that line of thought.

I do think though that men can be oblivious at times to the amount of cr*p women put up with from men. See, the rapist in a dark alleyway scenario is easier to understand. It's a clear threat situation and we all (men/women) can picture that. For me, the problem is the far more insidious type incidents.

My personal experiences aren't the worst but I bet you that they're probably far more common than the rapist scenario:

(1) Getting told to smile by random men on the street, on buses etc because you're pretty, or it would make you prettier. That's downright creepy
(2) Having a guy go from "charmer" to "shouter" in 10 seconds flat because you tell him that you're not interested. This has happened to me multiple times as I do travel a lot for work and am often on my own in bars/restaurants. I've had "who do you think you are whore" "you're a c*nt" shouted at me for simply declining conversation from random men
(3) Being grabbed / groped from behind in bars etc. I've had bruises on my breasts & ass in the past
(4) Open ogling of your chest. What's funny here is that I had open-heart surgery as a child and my scar runs from above my breasts (visible in any reasonable top or dress) to above my belly button. The amount of guys I have seen react to the scar is hilarious.
(5) etc...

For me, I just want the men in my life to be aware that this cr*p happens. Call it out when you see it. I can deal with it, but not everyone can.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

It goes beyond that. I'm not talking about some extreme weirdo who starts talking about sex straight away. I'm also talking about someone who starts chatting to you while you're scanning your shopping at the supermarket or other situations where you wouldn't expect to be approached by anyone male or female.

each to their own. I do approach women on the street, in a bookstore, etc. I've had plenty of women express that they weren't interested, and I didn't go any further. No worries. Smile politely, wish them a good day, and go about my business elsewhere. Just as I've had women express their thanks for the honest compliment or women who were happy to go for a coffee with me.

The key is the manner in which the approach is done. Politeness is everything.

Lol seriously? You go up to a woman and say hi. She grimaces and says carefully "hello". You continue talking to her. She never smiles and gives one word answers. You continue talking to her, she looks angry and looks away while continuing to give one word answers.

You're saying you don't have a pretty good idea she's not interested ? No wonder women get harassed if men can't read those glaringly obvious signs to feck off

Sure, that's an easy example. There's more than simply relying on body language there. There are loads of examples of how women can show they have absolutely no interest in a guy... and the guy should recognise it. I'm not disagreeing about that. But body language is still not a reliable guide.

Nah that's still creepy.

So, for you, an honest compliment without any expectation of more is now creepy. Gotcha.

But these guys rarely withdraw. They've already broken the social norm of approaching a stranger with no good reason and they usually don't mind breaking more.

And I agree. These guys rarely withdraw. But these guys do not represent the majority. Do you genuinely believe that most men behave that way? Being rude and persisting in the face of lack of interest?

I think there are some guides you can use. If you wouldn't approach a man then don't do it to a woman. For instance, waiting for a bus, bus is late, you make a comment to the woman next to you about late buses, she laughs, you get chatting. Can completely see that happening between two straight men. But a straight man wouldn't go up to a random good looking man on the street and start chatting. So don't do it to women.

Why not? I've had women do it to me. All without any expectation beyond getting to know each other. Or establishing if there is/can be interest/attraction.

Had you any prior reason to believe she was into you? Flirting? Multiple conversation ? If not then I consider that creepy. Just because it worked out for.you doesn't make it any less creepy. Many arranged marriages end with good matches. Doesn't mean it's something to aspire to

Nope. No knowledge of whether she was interested in me. But then that's what dating is for me. To determine if there is any interest. Ask someone to dinner and learn about them. No romantic expectations until interest is established.

I'm not suggesting that other men behave as I do. I've learned by my own mistakes/experience what works for me, and I'm very careful not make a woman uncomfortable around me. That's just my upbringing and personality.

And while all these claims that men don't understand all the crap that women have to experience regularly from men, at the same time, most women have very little experience of initiating a connection or dating practice. Most women I know are in relationships where their boyfriend initiated the contact, and subsequent dating. I wonder how many of those relationships would have occured if the guy was so fearful of offending the girl simply by asking her out?

I have no idea the connection of arranged marriages to this topic.

silverharp

dudara wrote: »

.....
For me, I just want the men in my life to be aware that this cr*p happens. Call it out when you see it. I can deal with it, but not everyone can.

what does that mean? white knighting like that can leave our white knight ending up in hospital or worse.

silverharp

silverharp wrote: »

what does that mean? white knighting like that can leave our white knight ending up in hospital or worse.

Most likely hospitalized first and then later in prison.

Press_Start

I'm gonna put my final post on here before I wash my hands of this thread.

The original topic: Is the hashtag a bad thing?
No. It's not.
It helps people realise that they are not alone in the harrassment and abuse sufferer umberella, and that if it happens to someone famous, it can happen to us. It also helps to make more people aware of their actions, and possibly make people able to call it out when they see it.

However there are certain people either fabricating their stories, or throwing up the basic version of harrassment and calling it abuse. Therefor reducing the impact and turning people away from the topic/ tag itself. This is fair enough to turn one away from it.

The next topic that has stemmed is people trying to deter blame from themselves when they're not even being accused, or people are trying to define harrassment abuse.

Harrassment is aggressive pressure and intimidation.
It is not;
being asked for your number on a bus.
being looked at.
being asked out at a bar
being bought a drink you didnt ask for
being talked about
being approached.
being "hit on"

These, while some are wildly innapropriate, do not constitute as abuse, or harrassment.

Harrassment is;
Being groped innapropriately
Being repeatedly approached after stating your intention
Being followed/ stalked
Being looked at after asking/ telling someone to stop.

Abuse is a long time or more violent series of incident (s)
Rape
Sexual Assault
Extended periods of sexual harrassment

The definition of abuse is that it is over extended periods of time, and uses violence or cruelty, and is extendedly sadistic in causing displeasure in others.

The whole point of this, is that the MeToo hashtag is being used to display incidents of sexual abuse, when you were taken advantage of, and
when you were either powerless to resist a sexual approach, or it was forced pn you. It is not to display everytime you were harrassed or when you were innapropirately apprached, and most people know this.

The moral of the story, and the whole idea I believe, is awareness. How do we stop people behaving like this? Calling them out on it. We can't arrest people for grabbing someones arse, or making a comment. But we can say something. It's going both ways for both genders.

Men: If you see something, call it out, and say something, be outraged. Be outraged together. If there's a few of you in the pub and you see something. Just say something. If it starts a fight, then thats what the guy wanted and then just handle it whatever way you see fit. Not just the pub. Anywhere you see it, in the workplace. If you see a friend doing it, say something to them. If you see a coworker doing it, either report them or say something to them.

Women: You're part of this too. If you're being harrassed and someone stands to help, they're not just standing up for them, they're standing up with you. Don't refuse them and say it's fine, there's no shame in getting help. Ask for help in a public place and it's likely to come. Call them out.

Until it becomes shameful to do it, people will keep doing it. They don't see it as wrong until a group of people actually stand up and say something.

It's impossible to just say to men "Don't do it"
Most men don't, and are aware of it. After a few drinks however things go out the window, not that they should, and other men need to be aware of it. Noone needs to say that they don't harrass, as noone will throw you a ****ing parade. Likewise women don't need to give examples of what they feel harrassment is. Obviously different women take it differently.
Some women don't even mind getting groped, they feel it as a turn on. (VERY VERY FEW)
Some women don't like being looked at, they feel objectified (VERY VERY FEW)

So please let's just try and keep this conversation on the topic, is the hashtag bad or not?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

silverharp wrote: »

what does that mean? white knighting like that can leave our white knight ending up in hospital or worse.

Presumably meaning among your friends, colleagues, family etc. If they'd deck you for saying "ah that's not on" then you've got problems.

The kind of man who cat calls, pinches arse, passes loud comments on the appearance of women, that man is going to listen to another man over twenty women.

Zulu

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

The kind of man who ... that man is going to listen to another man over twenty women.

Therein lies the fallacy.

That type of ignorance will not listen to another man, anymore than they would woman.
I get that you see their sexism as valuing mens opinions over womens, but you are wrong to think that that means they'll heed a conflicting opinion from a man because of that. You are dealing with an ignorant fu(ker, and there's little talking to that type of person regardless of gender.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think you're pretending you don't know the difference between a normal approach and a creepy one.

Say this guy arrives at his work picnic. There are 30 people there spread out maybe in little subgroups. He marches straight over to the best looking woman who he's never met before and introduces himself and starts flirting. Creepy. And I'm betting that's not the way it happened.

Other possible situation: they're both standing near each other alone and get chatting about how they hate work parties or something. Not creepy.

You can pretend all situations are the same and ignore nuance all you want. But we're not talking about the same thing.

As for whether the woman welcomes it, well that's the question isn't it. Why are so many women posting about how these things bother them if they welcome it? Why was brie Larson annoyed at being asked out by airport security?

Basically women can't win with you. You claim they like being asked out and faced with many examples that they don't like being approached in certain contexts then what? Something wrong with brie Larson and co? Too sensitive?

Eh, what are you babbling on about? Have you confused me with someone else? I'm fairly certain I know the difference between what reasonable minded folks would consider to be 'a creepy one'. Not sure you do though, as you've specifically said that approaching a woman (which would like start with a simple hello or comment) and actually striking up a conversation is 'creepy'. That's a really odd viewpoint.

As for women not being able to win, not sure really sure what you're on about. I also made no such claim that 'they liked it'. But I'm fairly certain millions of relationships would never have happened if guys (or girls) hadn't struck up a conversation with a stranger.

You do know that there are many, many women who you know.. join gyms, take up activities and a whole host of other things to meet people, including a potential partner (and guys likewise).

You seem to be pointing towards this #metoo as some kind of definitive list of how all women do NOT like to be approached. Maybe we should set up a #yesplease hashtag as an experiment to see how women (and men) DO like to be approached, so we can avoid all this nastiness in the future.

Perhaps you have mad some damaging encounters that have tainted your viewpoint, but saying that a guy (or girl) striking up a conversation with someone they don't yet know, is creepy by default.. well that's a rather depressing point of view. Are there some rules we need to make law governing social behavior when it comes to interacting with a potential new partner?

Press_Start

Zulu wrote: »

Therein lies the fallacy.

That type of ignorance will not listen to another man, anymore than they would woman.
I get that you see their sexism as valuing mens opinions over womens, but you are wrong to think that that means they'll heed a conflicting opinion from a man because of that. You are dealing with an ignorant fu(ker, and there's little talking to that type of person regardless of gender.

End of the day it's going to take all of us working together. If he doesnt listen to a crown of 20 women, he won't listen to anyone. If several women stand and give out, and he doesnt listen, he's a sexist, and a sadist, and not ashamed.

Press_Start

givyjoe wrote: »

You seem to be pointing towards this #metoo as some kind of definitive list of how all women do like to be approached. Maybe we should set up a #yesplease hashtag as an experiment to see how women (and men) DO like to be approached, so we can avoid all this nastiness in the future.

Get fukt.

givyjoe

Press_Start wrote: »

Get fukt.

You know sarcasm when you see it right

Press_Start

givyjoe wrote: »

You know sarcasm when you see it right

I mean it was absolutely zesty. I loved it. I meant he is the one who should get fukt.

silverharp

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

Presumably meaning among your friends, colleagues, family etc. If they'd deck you for saying "ah that's not on" then you've got problems.

The kind of man who cat calls, pinches arse, passes loud comments on the appearance of women, that man is going to listen to another man over twenty women.

if its a stranger/s you are on your own , at most they want a rise out of the woman, me interjecting myself leads to a risk of escalation.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Outlaw Pete

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm just reading an article from an Irish woman on why she used #metoo. She said in her primary school, the principal would call them up one at a time to the desk to recite something, and that each of the students spent the time trying to dodge his fingers under the desk.
This has happened to all of us, touching, not looking, not talking. I refuse to live in a world where this happens anymore or to listen to entitled men who dismiss it out of hand.
The time has come where women will no longer be treated the way they were.

Are you honestly trying to make child abuse in Ireland a gender issue?

You do realise that boys were being sexually abused in Artane and elsewhere and that nuns carried out a lot of abuse in the Magdalene Laundries and other children's homes throughout Ireland. I recommend the following documentary. Abuse in this country affected boys as well as it did girls. Neither gender was immune to the abuse from the Catholic Church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtxOePGgXPs

Press_Start

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Are you honestly trying to make child abuse in Ireland a gender issue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtxOePGgXPs

In what universe did this happen? It's an abuse story. Why should she be excluded?

professore

Press_Start wrote: »

Men: If you see something, call it out, and say something, be outraged. Be outraged together. If there's a few of you in the pub and you see something. Just say something. If it starts a fight, then thats what the guy wanted and then just handle it whatever way you see fit. Not just the pub. Anywhere you see it, in the workplace. If you see a friend doing it, say something to them. If you see a coworker doing it, either report them or say something to them.

Women: You're part of this too. If you're being harrassed and someone stands to help, they're not just standing up for them, they're standing up with you. Don't refuse them and say it's fine, there's no shame in getting help. Ask for help in a public place and it's likely to come. Call them out.

I agree with you, except the part about that it's exclusively men who harass, and exclusively women who get harassed. It's more common that way, but by no means is it exclusive.

professore

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think you're pretending you don't know the difference between a normal approach and a creepy one.

Say this guy arrives at his work picnic. There are 30 people there spread out maybe in little subgroups. He marches straight over to the best looking woman who he's never met before and introduces himself and starts flirting. Creepy. And I'm betting that's not the way it happened.

Totally depends on the guy and the women involved. If it's Prince Harry or someone it's charming.

Other possible situation: they're both standing near each other alone and get chatting about how they hate work parties or something. Not creepy.

Wrong again. Again totally depends on the situation. Have seen women run from guys just talking about normal stuff like this. Other guys can talk about sex in a non creepy way for an hour (OK a work situation is out of order to do this) and have every woman rolling around laughing.

Are you a guy that is awkward with women?