#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

professore

erica74 wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Wow .... Lots of balanced and reasonable comments the last few pages. Would be interested to know how common catcalling and the like is in Ireland ... A lot has been said about parts of the Bay Area

Because all of the comments so far recounting experiences in Ireland aren't enough? We're on page 62.
Just by the way, I'm in Ireland and in my experience it is very common.
Why do the goalposts keep changing? Or should I say, why do you keep changing the goalposts?

A huge amount were about the bay area or NYC.

Zulu

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Lewinsky made a lot of money out of the Clinton scandal. As well as turning it into business ventures,

I understood that it destroyed her career, and she struggled with a number of failed ventures to reinvent herself and try to distance herself from it but to no avail?

LLMMLL

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets.

A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times.

And I'm sure a lot of these guys weren't aware that 10 other guys were acting the same way turning it into a really awful situation for her. They probably think their own behaviour was absolutely fine. They fancied her, tried to get closer, tried to get her attention. Tried to get a bit of a grind on the dancefloor ah sire who hasn't done that etc. But would never behave badly towards a women oh no #notallmen.

The main message I'd like men to take away from #metoonisnthe sheer volume of harassment women face. That when you make your approach in daytime, or dance near a woman at nighttime that there are probably multiple other guys doing the same thing leading to very dodgy situations.

I think many guys use the excuse that because their behaviour is not that harrassy at the individual level and because they are not responsible for other people's behaviour that everything is fine. Like a tourist who takes a small piece of an ancient ruin as a memento. One tourist taking a piece of the Acropolis woulsnt have any effect. But every tourist decodes they want a piece of it then you have a problem.

Zulu

erica74 wrote: »

Just by the way, I'm in Ireland and in my experience it is very common.

Really? I mean, really?

I'm not questioning it happens, but I wonder about the frequency and the size of the problem. I wonder because in the past couple of decades, I don't remember overhearing a single instance of "cat calling", "wolf whistling", or "sexual street harassment" in that time. Now, granted, a handful of incidents may have occurred and been long forgotten but I struggle to believe I'd be that oblivious if it was as frequent as some may make out.

That said, I'd hasten to add, it shouldn't happen at all.

I also hasten to add that I've seen plenty of it in pubs and nightclubs over the years. There's plenty of drunken asshats that shouldn't drink (regardless of gender). And I'd be quick to distinguish between the two environments.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true.

...and I think your gender bias, sexism, and misandry are blatant.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets.

A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times.

At a festival where presumably, thousands of other men were present, NOT assaulting women?

Zulu

givyjoe wrote: »

At a festival where presumably, thousands of other men were present, NOT assaulting women?

Nah, it was a rape festival. Fupping animals.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

At a festival where presumably, thousands of other men were present, NOT assaulting women?

The excuses are already pouring in. This was a dancefloor in a small tent. Probably 100 people. And about ten guys suddenly crowded her like she had some weird gravitational pull. My friend who is stridently anti-feminist and hates band wagon jumping with a passion said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't seen it.

LLMMLL

Also the same girl I mentioned earlier who had to leave an area because a guy was harassing her was harassed in a taxi at the weekend. The taxi driver telling her about his much younger gf but he'd leave the gf to be with her if she wanted. This at 3am while she's alone in an enclosed space.

Can't wait to hear the excuses: ah sure taxi drivers aren't normal guys. They're all crazy. Your have to expect this stuff off them. Why hasn't she reported it to the taxi regulator etc. Etc.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

The excuses are already pouring in. This was a dancefloor in a small tent. Probably 100 people. And about ten guys suddenly crowded her like she had some weird gravitational pull. My friend who is stridently anti-feminist and hates band wagon jumping with a passion said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't seen it.

Sorry, what excuse did I make? And to be clear I am not defending anyone who would do such a thing, it's clearly wrong.

You stated that you doubt it's a tiny minority of men.. yet you referenced a festival where there were likely thousands, if not tens of thousands of men NOT assaulting women.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Sorry, what excuse did I make? And to be clear I am not defending anyone who do such a thing, it's clearly wrong.

You stated that you doubt it's a tiny minority of men.. yet you referenced a festival where there were likely thousands, if not tens of thousands of men NOT assaulting women.

I'm not saying 100%. But I think there's a significant minority of men who harrassy semi regularly and I think the majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.

Christy42

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets.

A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times.

And I'm sure a lot of these guys weren't aware that 10 other guys were acting the same way turning it into a really awful situation for her. They probably think their own behaviour was absolutely fine. They fancied her, tried to get closer, tried to get her attention. Tried to get a bit of a grind on the dancefloor ah sire who hasn't done that etc. But would never behave badly towards a women oh no #notallmen.

The main message I'd like men to take away from #metoonisnthe sheer volume of harassment women face. That when you make your approach in daytime, or dance near a woman at nighttime that there are probably multiple other guys doing the same thing leading to very dodgy situations.

I think many guys use the excuse that because their behaviour is not that harrassy at the individual level and because they are not responsible for other people's behaviour that everything is fine. Like a tourist who takes a small piece of an ancient ruin as a memento. One tourist taking a piece of the Acropolis woulsnt have any effect. But every tourist decodes they want a piece of it then you have a problem.

I think tiny should be defined.

There are certainly enough to make it an issue for a large proportion of women.

However I have seen little evidence it is a majority of men doing it. So it depends what you mean by tiny. Whatever the number I feel like the number of victims alone are enough to justify this campaign and hopefully further actions which are needed.

Sorry but the phrasing rockets seems to indicate a large proportion of men are responsible which won't help matters. Certainly the tourist analogy where you talk about every tourist is suggestive of this.

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn't handwave it away first of all, and second of all because women aren't generally raised in isolated bubbles by themselves away from all men, I'm certainly not speaking from a position of ignorance. I'm quite aware of what women learn too from their parents, their peers, their friends, their co-workers and so on.

Are you seriously suggesting that your mother learned this from her mother -


Every man on a quiet street is a potential threat
Every man walking behind us could be a rapist
Men we don't know are threats
Men we do know are even bigger threats
The single biggest threat to women is men


I know that only a vanishingly small minority of women have ever thought that of men, and thought it long before your grandmothers time too.

I haven't replied to this because I'm starting to find the whole thread draining; but since it's still being brought up: Yes, I was taught this by my mother, and I have heard the same from women around the globe.

Girls are taught to keep an eye out on the street for men following them. We are taught to be aware of men hanging around in places like car parks; we are often advised to keep our keys in our hand as we walk to our car so they can be used as a weapon.

You've seen it on threads here - a woman meets a man on a night out and he (or as in a recent case, one of his friends) rapes her: immediately people jump on her behaviour and ask why she went with him what did she expect would happen going off with a man she doesn't know? Which teaches us that we can't trust men that we don't know.

However, statistics tell us that most sexual assaults are perpetrated by someone know to the victim. This means that those of you who have daughters: she's in more danger from an uncle, a cousin, or a family friend than the bogeyman rapist in a dark alley. So we can't really trust men we do know either.

As for the biggest threat to women being men, I can't find statistics for that at the minute, but I had thought I read it somewhere. I did find a study stating that the number one cause of death in pregnant women is murder.

As for the getting yelled at out of cars, or crass remarks in the street; it may not be a daily occurance, but it can certainly be a weekly one more frequent in warmer weather, and not confined to a certain socio-economic background. The problem with 'sure, it's not like assault' is that that attitude does nothing to stop it. And it is relentless, and it is mainly focussed at young women who are most effected by it emotionally. It dehumanises you. It tells you that you can't even walk to the shop without some men feeling like they have the right to shout 'nice tits' when all you wanted was to buy a litre of milk and go about your day.

I know that there are men here wondering what the problem is; sure, they'd love someone to compliment their bum as they went about their day, but I guarantee that it would get old fast, especially if it started, as it does for girls, when they were 11 or 12. The constant barrage of 'show us your tits', 'you'd look pretty if you smiled', 'hey you, lady! Fck you then, bitch' grinds you down and wears you out, and is a reminder that to a large minority of men you are meat that is there for them to look at, ogle, fondle, and above all pay attention to like they are whiny babies and they will turn nasty if you don't.

And if you think that's crap then you have no fcking idea what you're talking about.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

...majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.

So the majority then. :rolleyes:
And this extends across the globe obviously - so you're referencing 50% of the population, right?


You acknowledge that if you throw a wide enough net you'll catch everything, right?
So selecting MEN as 50% of the global population, is going to net you a lot of bad things. The thing is, it's what bigots do. And there would appear to be a lot of bigots on this thread.

(please note, when you apply that to race, it's called racism.)

LLMMLL

Christy42 wrote: »

I think tiny should be defined.

There are certainly enough to make it an issue for a large proportion of women.

However I have seen little evidence it is a majority of men doing it. So it depends what you mean by tiny. Whatever the number I feel like the number of victims alone are enough to justify this campaign and hopefully further actions which are needed.

Sorry but the phrasing rockets seems to indicate a large proportion of men are responsible which won't help matters. Certainly the tourist analogy where you talk about every tourist is suggestive of this.

We all know it's impossible to define exact percentages. Especially with the lower level stuff that I'm describing. In my opinion the number of sober harassers would be in the 1-10 percent range. The number that harrassy regularly when drunk is in the 20-25 percent area and the number who have at least one drunken incident where they harassed a woman is in the 50-70 range.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

So the majority then. :rolleyes:
And this extends across the globe obviously - so you're referencing 50% of the population, right?

Yeah I think over 50% of men have at least one incident of harassment in their lives. Probably while drunk and probably something they don't acknowledge to themselves and never will.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm not saying 100%. But I think there's a significant minority of men who harrassy semi regularly and I think the majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.

There we have it.. you think based on zero statistical data and completely on personal experience.

I don't think it is anything other than a tiny minority, but I also believe that the number of reported and (estimated number of unreported cases) of sex crimes against women by men.. (In Ireland) still make the proportion of men committing these crimes to be what would be considered a statistically a tiny minority.

Again, just to be clear. It's wrong, it shouldn't happen and there no excuses for it.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yeah I think over 50% of men have at least one incident of harassment in their lives. Probably while drunk and probably something they don't acknowledge to themselves and never will.

And what numbers would you care to pull out of your arse for the other 50% of the population (women)?

B0jangles

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That wasn't the comparison. The comparison was you suggesting I would always be arguing from a position of ignorance, while you assumed to be able to speak for the experiences of as you put it - "the vast majority of women". You simply cannot speak for anyone else's experiences but your own. Just because of your shared anatomy doesn't give you any more insight into the life of another woman outside of yourself. You really can't speak as to the experiences of the vast majority of women, and of course when you put that out there, people are entitled to question it rather than just listen and believe, particularly when your experience as a woman is in no way representative at all of the women in their lives. Just to give you one example - what you say you learned growing up and what you learned from your grandmother is nothing like what my sister learned growing up. It's nothing like what the vast majority of my friends learned growing up. Yours is without a doubt a completely different life to theirs, and I'm not just saying that to be argumentative or to make a point for the sake of making a point. I'm saying it because as much as you like to think that by virtue of the fact that you are a woman, does not mean that the vast majority of women have experienced anything or even close to anything like your experiences. They have their own minds and their own experiences, and this used to be acknowledged when women reminded men that they are not of a hive mind, and yet, well, here we are. We're now expected to listen and believe when we're told that women are a hive mind after all, and coincidentally enough, most of them just happen to think the same way you do. I've known enough women well enough throughout my life to know that simply isn't true. It's an idea that completely ignores the reality that people are actually individuals, not clones of each other based upon their sex.

And I never claimed I knew what it was like to live as a woman, I simply pointed out that the idea that you can claim your experiences are representative of the majority of women, while it may well be subjectively true as far as you're concerned, it's certainly nowhere near objectively true as far as reality is concerned. Whether you'd try and explain men's experiences to them was really neither here nor there, as I wasn't trying to explain your experiences to you, I was attempting to explain to you that your experiences aren't nearly as universal as you want to believe they are. You can continue to believe it of course and more power to you if that's what gets you through the day. I don't have to believe it though - goes back to the whole reason why I disagreed with you earlier when you said that nobody is entitled to be listened to, but you had exceptions. I don't.

I never told you any such thing. In fact I've always advocated quite the opposite -


From here: http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057710031/37/#post102767140


As for why I think I have any insight at all, well I don't owe you an explanation. Pissing contests really aren't my thing. I can object to your claim by showing where it's fallacious without needing to go into laying out my own personal experiences, by simply demonstrating using the experiences of other women that your experiences as a woman are nowhere near as universal as you assume your experiences to be.


I didn't say you personally had an extremist ideology, I was referring to the idea of extremist ideologies in general. That you agree with kylith was really neither here nor there because what I was commenting on was the extremity of the ideology itself, the idea that men are the scourge of woman, that they are the greatest threat to women. I really don't have any interest in making it personally about either yourself or kylith, and I'm not taking what kylith said personally. I'm not taking it personally for the simple reason that it's crap. I'm not contradicting kylith's experiences that she made in her post, I'm not contradicting your experiences, I'm not explaining any woman's experiences to them. I absolutely believe your experiences, but what I don't have to believe, are your opinions, particularly when your opinions consist of a belief that is simply objectively untrue and without foundation or any credible evidence of any sort.

I'm not trying to be flippant, but is this not just a very long-winded way of saying that neither you nor I have perfect knowledge of anyone's life but our own?

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

There we have it.. you think based on zero statistical data and completely on personal experience.

I don't think it is anything other than a tiny minority, but I also believe that the number of reported and (estimated number of unreported cases) of sex crimes against women by men.. (In Ireland) still make the proportion of men committing these crimes to be what would be considered a statistically a tiny minority.

Again, just to be clear. It's wrong, it shouldn't happen and there no excuses for it.

I'm clearly not talking about sex crimes. I've mentioned lower level harassment numerous times.

Yes it's my experience but the reason I think it's not a simple case of me having one experience and you having another is that you only really notice these things if you take notice of them. They're very easy to ignkre.

I had no idea this stuff went on until I read an article and the comments beneath the article were full of these stories.

I then mentioned it to female friends asking if they'd been harassed. The vast majority said no. I then said "oh so you've never been followed home, approached on the bus, been groped, called a **** for.not responding favoirably to a come on". Every single one of them was like "oh yeah but you get used to all that"

I then started to notice it. Guys trying to strike up conversations on public transport while a girl angles her whole body away from him. Drunk guys screaming at passing women and insulting them when the woman doesn't acknowledge said scream etc.

And the anti-feminist friend I mentioned used to laugh at me about all this stuff but is now.in complete agreement having witnessed it all after I sensitised him to it. Now I laugh at him about how he used to call me crazy and is now in 100% agreement with me.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

And what numbers would you care to pull out of your arse for the other 50% of the population (women)?

Well I don't hear the experiences of many men on this. I've personally been groped by one woman. And when I do hear the experiences of men (usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable) they usually have one particular incident in mind so I'd say a negligible percentage of sober female harassers and maybe 1-10 percent of drunken female harassers having done one dodgy male harassment.

One eyed Jack

kylith wrote: »

And if you think that's crap then you have no fcking idea what you're talking about.

Not going to quote the whole post, but just wanted to say that no, of course it's not crap, and I absolutely do know, and understand well what you're talking about. Where I disagreed with your post, was simply the idea you were trying to put out there that men are the greatest threat to women.

There was no reasoning for it, there was no qualification for it, there was nothing to back it up only your belief which I was given to understand was based upon your experience and the experiences of those women you're aware of who have experienced the same behaviours and attitudes from men as you have. I could absolutely understand why you would feel that way or might think that way on that basis, but I don't have to pretend it's an opinion that's any way reasonable or worthy of being taken seriously.

duadara mentioned that I'd struggle to find a woman who hadn't experienced intimidation from men at some point in her life. Now even allowing for that bar that's so low that we're talking about women who have felt intimidated by men as an issue which men should be made aware of, I still wouldn't struggle at all to find plenty of women who have never experienced feeling intimidated by men, and would laugh at the very idea of it and think I really had gone and finally lost my marbles.

Women themselves, wouldn't be able to take that standard that's as low as that, seriously either. Is the problem still one that women aren't taken seriously by men? No, the problem was always that some people aren't taken seriously by most people, and when those people come out with inflammatory and divisive statements, that merely serves to have people take them even less seriously than there was any chance they might have been listened to before then.

lazybones32

LLMMLL wrote: »

Can't wait to hear the excuses: ah sure taxi drivers aren't normal guys. They're all crazy. Your have to expect this stuff off them. Why hasn't she reported it to the taxi regulator etc. Etc.

This is the point of the opposition to #metoo: if a taxi driver made those comments, would the correct course of action be a) inform the Gardai, b) inform the Gardai and then complain to the taxi regulator or c) go on twitter to share your vague experience so more men will start to change society and human nature on your behalf?
I'd really like your answer on that please.

LLMMLL

lazybones32 wrote: »

This is the point of the opposition to #metoo: if a taxi driver made those comments, would the correct course of action be a) inform the Gardai, b) inform the Gardai and then complain to the taxi regulator or c) go on twitter to share your vague experience so more men will start to change society and human nature on your behalf?
I'd really like your answer on that please.

Subjectively, It's up to woman to decide the "correct" course of action for her. Many people, men and women, don't like to make that kind of official fuss. The women posting on metoo aren't looking for some kind of official sanction. They're just sharing their experiences.

Objectively, as in "what's the best way to achieve the perceived goal of metoo" then reporting to the regulator would maybe result in a fine which may be publicised in the regulator's report a year later with most men dismissing it as an isolated incident. Metoo shows the volume of these incidents. They are not isolated. So it has a vital role.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

...(usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable)

The fact you needed to shoehorn that into your response is very telling; your intolerance is telling.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

... reporting to the regulator would maybe result in a fine which may be publicised in the regulator's report a year later with most men dismissing it as an isolated incident. Metoo shows the volume of these incidents. They are not isolated. So it has a vital role.

So imposing an actual financial penalty on the guilty party, and publicly naming and shaming that guilty person, is less favourable to a twitter campaign aimed an noone in particular?

Ok.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

The fact you needed to shoehorn that into your response is very telling; your intolerance is telling.

It wasnt shoehorned it. I'm clearly stating that the men on this thread recounting their one incident of female harassment to try to portray themselves as facing similar issues to women who have recounted multiple instances are laughable.

lazybones32

@LLMMLL
What a load of crap...are you involved in politics in some shape or form? You have an ability to address an issue with waffle while avoiding the Q.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

So imposing an actual financial penalty on the guilty party, and publicly naming and shaming that guilty person, is less favourable to a twitter campaign aimed an noone in particular?

Ok.

The financial penalty might stop that taxi driver doing it again. Maybe some other taxi drivers might be influenced to monitor their behaviour. Most men woild dismiss it as an isolated incident and not associate it with their own bad behavioir.

Metoo highlights that these issues are pervasive and part of a larger pattern.

Both official reporting (if that's an option, no man will be prosecuted for walking down the street after a woman trying to talk to her) and metoo have their parts to play.

But the whole idea of "she didn't report it therefore metoo is attention seeking and I won't listen to it" is nonsense.

Why not.just admit that this was a ****ty thing to happen to her whether she reported it or not.

LLMMLL

lazybones32 wrote: »

@LLMMLL
What a load of crap...are you involved in politics in some shape or form? You have an ability to address an issue with waffle while avoiding the Q.

Can you be specific about what questions I've avoided? Or are you just annoyed that I don't agree with you.

Just had a look at the previous page where I was asked 2 direct questions and answered them both directly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

One eyed Jack

B0jangles wrote: »

I'm not trying to be flippant, but is this not just a very long-winded way of saying that neither you nor I have perfect knowledge of anyone's life but our own?

Well, when you put it like that... :pac:

But yeah, you're right, that's essentially what it boils down to, is that nobody can ever truly know what goes on in someone else's mind. Nobody else can ever truly know how other people process their experiences because there are both a number of internal and external influences over how people process their experiences.

That's why while I understand the concept of the metoo hashtag and women who have experienced the kind of behaviour they have from men, it's also important to recognise that twitter is a concentrated representation of women who also have the means and access to social media, whereas far more women, simply don't.

So while I can certainly appreciate the perspective of an affluent young millennial who constantly gets groped by men every night she goes out with her mates, I'm not going to equate that on any level with the isolated old woman who has endured a lifetime of sexual violence and torture at the hands of men.

They really are the very definition of worlds apart.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm clearly not talking about sex crimes. I've mentioned lower level harassment numerous times.

Yes it's my experience but the reason I think it's not a simple case of me having one experience and you having another is that you only really notice these things if you take notice of them. They're very easy to ignkre.

I had no idea this stuff went on until I read an article and the comments beneath the article were full of these stories.

I then mentioned it to female friends asking if they'd been harassed. The vast majority said no. I then said "oh so you've never been followed home, approached on the bus, been groped, called a **** for.not responding favoirably to a come on". Every single one of them was like "oh yeah but you get used to all that"

I then started to notice it. Guys trying to strike up conversations on public transport while a girl angles her whole body away from him. Drunk guys screaming at passing women and insulting them when the woman doesn't acknowledge said scream etc.

And the anti-feminist friend I mentioned used to laugh at me about all this stuff but is now.in complete agreement having witnessed it all after I sensitised him to it. Now I laugh at him about how he used to call me crazy and is now in 100% agreement with me.

Absolutely none of the above backs up the your claim that this anything other than a small, tiny minority of men. 2 people have come to an agreement, based on personal experience.. that over 50% have at some point harassed women. That is an utterly ludicrous proposition.

It's also not clear that you are NOT referring to sex crimes.. when you described a situation where a girl was being groped at a festival.

Someone else asked you, I may have missed the answer? What proportion of women do you GUESS are guilty of similar harassment? i.e. abusing random male strangers or giving unwanted attention in a bar/nightclub situation?

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Absolutely none of the above backs up the your claim that this anything other than a small, tiny minority of men. 2 people have come to an agreement, based on personal experience.. that over 50% have at some point harassed women. That is an utterly ludicrous proposition.

It's also not clear that you are NOT referring to sex crimes.. when you described a situation where a girl was being groped at a festival.

Someone else asked you, I may have missed the answer? What proportion of women do you GUESS are guilty of similar harassment? i.e. abusing random male strangers or giving unwanted attention in a bar/nightclub situation?

You did indeed miss the answer. Look at the previous page.

My claim is that if you pay attention rather than minimizing "why didn't she report it" "oh they just have been skanger" etc. You'd actually see this behaviour regularly, mostly in a drunken context.

It's not a case of proving it to you with stats. That's never going to happen.

And how much success would a girl have with a garda with a report that ten indivodual guys got the same idea to crack onto her in a creepy way, with one guy keeping his finger on her elbow constantly. I can see that leading to a prosecution. Not every harassment behavioir can be dealt with by harassment laws. It's hard enough for women to deal with extreme harassment by law such as stalking.

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So while I can certainly appreciate the perspective of an affluent young millennial who constantly gets groped by men every night she goes out with her mates, I'm not going to equate that on any level with the isolated old woman who has endured a lifetime of sexual violence and torture at the hands of men.

They really are the very definition of worlds apart.

But don't you see that brushing one off can lead to the other?

The men perpetrating sexual violence against that isolated old woman didn't start as rapists. They started with catcalling in the street and laughing about it with their mates. They started with sticking their hand up a dress in a pub. They started with following a woman down the street yelling at her first for attention and then calling her a bitch.

Most men who even do that won't escalate to rape, but rape in engendered by the idea that men have a right to women; to their bodies and to their attention, and for some men that will escalate from groping on the dance floor.

No, it may make no difference to some people, but if good men see their friends acting inappropriately and say something, just something like 'Jesus, Steve, stop hassling her'. If Steve's mates don't approve of what he's doing and say it to him he's more likely to stop doing it.

And even if you don't equate groping to rape; how would you feel if every time you went out random strangers thought it was ok to grab your penis?

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well I don't hear the experiences of many men on this. I've personally been groped by one woman. And when I do hear the experiences of men (usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable) they usually have one particular incident in mind so I'd say a negligible percentage of sober female harassers and maybe 1-10 percent of drunken female harassers having done one dodgy male harassment.

Well here's a few. I personally, have had happen (at least once):

- Verbally abused when I said not interested
- Crotch groped
- Ass grabbed
- Chest grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Arms grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Particularly drunk girl trying push myself and friend together to kiss for her viewing pleasure
- While I was very drunk in a group at a table, groped and then my jeans opened

A friend that I regularly go to bars with, almost every time has female attention, that he doesn't want, who will often persist with their advances.

I don't consider myself too much to look at, but I don't think it's a leap to say a better than average looking chap is likely to get more attention that other less attractive guys, therefore is also likely to get more UNWANTED and inappropriate attention.

carolmon

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

The problem I see with Lewinsky's situation is that by her own admission, she fell for her boss.


But for me, the #metoo hash tag represents someone who was left traumatised by 'the act'-whatever the act was (groping, harassment, rape etc) rather than the attention it drew.

As Lewinsky said, her relationship was consensual, there was no force or violence used. She may regret the relationship now, but does that constitute being included in the '#metoo' movement?

Maybe she's not talking about Bill Clinton?

Do you think it's possible that she may have experienced other harassment or abuse in her lifetime?

She does definitely acknowledge that the relationship with Bill was consensual so I actually doubt that the "metoo" refers to him.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Well here's a few. I personally, have had happen (at least once):

- Verbally abused when I said not interested
- Crotch groped
- Ass grabbed
- Chest grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Arms grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Particularly drunk girl trying push myself and friend together to kiss for her viewing pleasure
- While I was very drunk in a group at a table, groped and then my jeans opened

A friend that I regularly go to bars with, almost every time has female attention, that he doesn't want, who will often persist with their advances.

I don't consider myself too much to look at, but I don't think it's a leap to say a better than average looking chap is likely to get more attention that other less attractive guys, therefore is also likely to get more UNWANTED and inappropriate attention.

Absolutely those things are inappropriate behaviour by those women.

In relation to whether men face it as much as women:

Does every man you know have this happening on a regular basis?

How regular an occurrence is it for you personally. How many times this year have you been groped?

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

You did indeed miss the answer. Look at the previous page.

My claim is that if you pay attention rather than minimizing "why didn't she report it" "oh they just have been skanger" etc. You'd actually see this behaviour regularly, mostly in a drunken context.

It's not a case of proving it to you with stats. That's never going to happen.

And how much success would a girl have with a garda with a report that ten individual guys got the same idea to crack onto her in a creepy way, with one guy keeping his finger on her elbow constantly. I can see that leading to a prosecution. Not every harassment behaviour can be dealt with by harassment laws. It's hard enough for women to deal with extreme harassment by law such as stalking.

Funny, you seem to be completely missing the point put to you over and over and over. I've looked over the last page, I don't see your guess at a percentage of women guilty of harassing men. Feel free to post it again, it should be easy.. it's 2 digits.

You think you should be able to make an assertion that it isn't a tiny minority of men who harass in a way you described.. but sure you can never prove it with stats. Right, so I should just accept this should I?

I made no mention of 'why didn't she report it'.. NONE. The proportion of men guilty of this harassment, while drunk, may be higher than those who are not this harassment may be here higher and it may be more likely to happen in a bar.. but that still does not back up your claim that the vast, vast majority of men do NOT engage in this behaviour. Keep going with anecdotal stories all you like, it does not prove your point.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well I don't hear the experiences of many men on this. I've personally been groped by one woman. And when I do hear the experiences of men (usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable) they usually have one particular incident in mind so I'd say a negligible percentage of sober female harassers and maybe 1-10 percent of drunken female harassers having done one dodgy male harassment.

@givyjoe. Here is the post in question

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Absolutely those things are inappropriate behaviour by those women.

In relation to whether men face it as much as women:

Does every man you know have this happening on a regular basis?
How would I know, I haven't asked them. Even I had, what statistical relevance does it have? I know hundreds of men, should I go around conducting a survey?

How regular an occurrence is it for you personally. How many times this year have you been groped?
I've been out (in a bar/nighclub) probably a dozen times this year. So, at least half of those nights out I'd say.

I've answered your questions in line above.


I didn't claim this happens to men as much as women, I have no way of proving this one way or the other (It probably doesn't happen to men at the same level, or even close). What I didn't do however, was make a claim that is anything other than small minority of women doing this. I've only my own personal experience to draw from, as have you.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

I've answered your questions in line above.


I didn't claim this happens to men as much as women, I have no way of proving this one way or the other (It probably doesn't happen to men at the same level, or even close). What I didn't do however, was make a claim that is anything other than small minority of women doing this. I've only my own personal experience to draw from, as have you.

But if it has to be based on statistical evidence (which we both know well never get) you must have no opinion on whether it's a minority or a majority of men doing this.

All you have are the experiences of women posting on metoo. They suggest that a proportion of men harrassy women. They don't suggest whether it's a majority or a minority.

So why are you OK with someone suggesting it's a minority of men but outraged at me suggesting it's over 50% in certain situations?

If you're really only making conclusions based on evidence then you shoud be equally outraged at someone having the temerity to suggest from their personal experience that it's a minority of men doing this.

And I must say your nightclub experience is very different from mine. I'm pretty decent looking and am.approached by women pretty regularly. Usually telling me I have beautiful eyes. I've only been groped once. I'm very surprised it happens to you half the times you go out.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

It wasnt shoehorned it. I'm clearly stating that t...

You mentioned it in order to dismiss others experiences. It highlights your contempt and bigotry.

LLMMLL wrote: »

The financial penalty might stop that taxi driver doing it again. Maybe some other taxi drivers might be influenced to monitor their behaviour.

So it would be effective in dealing with the problem and the guilty parties...

Most men woild dismiss it as an isolated incident and not associate it with their own bad behavioir.

...but your not interested in that because, let's face it, all men are the problem - right?

You're a misandrist.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

But if it has to be based on statistical evidence (which we both know well never get) you must have no opinion on whether it's a minority or a majority of men doing this.

All you have are the experiences of women posting on metoo. They suggest that a proportion of men harrassy women. They don't suggest whether it's a majority or a minority.

So why are you OK with someone suggesting it's a minority of men but outraged at me suggesting it's over 50% in certain situations?

If you're really only making conclusions based on evidence then you shoud be equally outraged at someone having the temerity to suggest from their personal experience that it's a minority of men doing this.

And I must say your nightclub experience is very different from mine. I'm pretty decent looking and am.approached by women pretty regularly. Usually telling me I have beautiful eyes. I've only been groped once. I'm very surprised it happens to you half the times you go out.

If you can't see why I have, or should have, a problem with the majority of men (50% and over) being assumed to be harassers, there is no point debating the point with you.

Lets take your randomly plucked assertion of 50%, and imagine it's an assertion which places all women (sorry, 50% or more of them) as guilty of something universally agreed to be wrong or a 'bad thing'. Can you see why women would (understandably) be quite annoyed about their entire gender (sorry half) as guilty?

As for you doubting my experience... you were literally castigating other posters for doing precisely the same thing ,when doubting the frequency of their experiences. Pretty much undermines any points you're making.

Maybe you do have great eyes.. but I'm not surprised they haven't been groped :rolleyes:

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

You mentioned it in order to dismiss others experiences. It highlights your contempt and bigotry.

So it would be effective in dealing with the problem and the guilty parties... ...but your not interested in that because, let's face it, all men are the problem - right?

You're a misandrist.

I'm open to having my opinion changed on men's experiences of being harassed by women if they share them. Those that have shared them so far have usually mentioned that one time when a woman.....

I don't doubt those experiences but they're not the long list of weekly stuff that the women have been posting.

I'm not uninterested in women reporting a taxi driver that harasses them. If they choose to do that I would fully support them. They could also post it on metoo as well. One does not exclude the other. All I've said is that I understand that not every woman (or man) wants the hassle of making official reports about an incident. I've also said that posting on metoo is a valid way of raising the issue and can have positive consequences.

I'm not even going to deal.with the silly.misandrist comment.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

But if it has to be based on statistical evidence (which we both know well never get) you must have no opinion on whether it's a minority or a majority of men doing this. .

It has to be based on statistical evidence otherwise it's hearsay, and considered unreliable. We already know that women are harassed. That's been known for quite some time. Just as we know that women harass men, although it doesn't receive similar criticism. The belief that these statistics will not be collected comes down to the lack of official reports to support these claims of "widespread" harassment.

If this is a movement to bring about real change for women (and men), and to reduce the harassment that they receive, then it needs to move beyond the twitter or forums and become official. Hence for the need for women to submit reports, for those reports to be verified, and then any possible resistance can be overcome.

It's exactly the same for men. Domestic abuse against men is starting to gain attention but only because more men are reporting it happening, the statistics are being generated, and it's harder for those who don't want changes to occur, to block it.

That's why the metoo movement needs to move beyond unverified contributions, and women need to actually report the behavior of the men who are behaving in such a terrible manner. Men need to do the same if that behavior is considered unacceptable.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

If you can't see why I have, or should have, a problem with the majority of men (50% and over) being assumed to be harassers, there is no point debating the point with you.

I fully understand why you'd have A problem with it. But you're pretending you have only a statistical issue with it (I.e. you're being objective) and I'm basing mine on personal experience (I.e. I'm not objective). But your real issue is not statistical or evidence based. It's based on your personal.experince.tok. All I'm saying is don't pretend you have a problem with personal experience influencing opinion. You're no different.

Lets take your randomly plucked assertion of 50%, and imagine it's an assertion which places all women (sorry, 50% or more of them) as guilty of something universally agreed to be wrong or a 'bad thing'. Can you see why women would (understandably) be quite annoyed about their entire gender (sorry half) as guilty?

Yes I can understand why they'd be annoyed. But they shouldn't pretend their issue is some kind of statistical methodological issue.

As for you doubting my experience... you were literally castigating other posters for doing precisely the same thing ,when doubting the frequency of their experiences. Pretty much undermines any points you're making.

Maybe you do have great eyes.. but I'm not surprised they haven't been groped :rolleyes:

I don't doubt it. I contrasted it with my own. And I'd pay attention if a woman contrasted her experience with the metoo posters. But the most I've seen on this thread from women in terms of dissent is "Im a woman who hates metoo but yeah I get harassed all the time"

As males talking about male harassment I can of course contrast my experience with yours. Women can also.contrast their experiences as women experiencing male harassment. Males contrasting their experiences with wkmems is.dodgy though.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I fully understand why you'd have A problem with it. But you're pretending you have only a statistical issue with it (I.e. you're being objective) and I'm basing mine on personal experience (I.e. I'm not objective). But your real issue is not statistical or evidence based. It's based on your personal.experince.tok. All I'm saying is don't pretend you have a problem with personal experience influencing opinion. You're no different.



Yes I can understand why they'd be annoyed. But they shouldn't pretend their issue is some kind of statistical methodological issue.



I don't doubt it. I contrasted it with my own. And I'd pay attention if a woman contrasted her experience with the metoo posters. But the most I've seen on this thread from women in terms of dissent is "Im a woman who hates metoo but yeah I get harassed all the time"

As males talking about male harassment I can of course contrast my experience with yours. Women can also.contrast their experiences as women experiencing male harassment. Males contrasting their experiences with wkmems is.dodgy though.

I don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, but please don't tell me what I do or do not have a problem with. I have specifically and repeatedly told you what I have a problem with. I have a problem with you blindly making up figures that don't seem credible and are completely informed by your personal experience. It's that simple really.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It has to be based on statistical evidence otherwise it's hearsay, and considered unreliable. We already know that women are harassed. That's been known for quite some time. Just as we know that women harass men, although it doesn't receive similar criticism. The belief that these statistics will not be collected comes down to the lack of official reports to support these claims of "widespread" harassment.

The low level harassment I'm talking about is unreportable though. I'm sure you keep.up.to.date with news and if you do.you must have seen stories of.women who were properly stalked and how hard it was to do anything. And you think the law can deal.with a guy who follows a woman down the street on one occasion? You will NEVER get official stats on that. It is 100% unrealistic to want that as a basis for discussion.

I get why first hand accounts can be felt to be unreliable.or.exaggerated. But there comes a point where the volume of them lends credence, pretty much certainty.

Easiest way to see that was with Harvey Weinstein. There comes a point where do.manynwomen accuse him with matching stories that only the most deluded woild think that any individual story is probabilistically a lie.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

I don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, but please don't tell me what I do or do not have a problem with. I have specifically and repeatedly told you what I have a problem with. I have a problem with you blindly making up figures that don't seem credible and are completely informed by your personal experience. It's that simple really.

Do you have any objective statistical issues with a poster saying that in their opinion a minority of.men have at least one incident of harassment?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

The low level harassment I'm talking about is unreportable though. I'm sure you keep.up.to.date with news and if you do.you must have seen stories of.women who were properly stalked and how hard it was to do anything. And you think the law can deal.with a guy who follows a woman down the street on one occasion? You will NEVER get official stats on that. It is 100% unrealistic to want that as a basis for discussion.

You have to start somewhere. Start with the reports which can be submitted first, and then, we can look to creating a system to deal with the other problems.

You've decided that because some issues can't be reported or enforced, then you must avoid pushing the remainder to be entered for official records, and as statistical evidence.

Sure, this thread talks about "low level harassment" but it also covers far more about more serious harassment that women have to experience. Stands to reason to focus on that first, deal with it, and move on to the remainder later.

I get why first hand accounts can be felt to be unreliable.or.exaggerated. But there comes a point where the volume of them lends credence, pretty much certainty.

Nope. It doesn't. Because they still have not been verified. Until those claims are verified as being true, you're not going to get that much support from most men. Why? because we've seen the claims by hardline feminists for decades, and they've often (not always) been proven to be baseless.

Easiest way to see that was with Harvey Weinstein. There comes a point where do.manynwomen accuse him with matching stories that only the most deluded woild think that any individual story is probabilistically a lie.

Apparently, quite a lot of people in that industry knew what he was doing... for decades.