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#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?
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So why bring it up in a discussion which is focussed largely on women talking about sexual harassment? Why say:
I gave my reasoning already: it happens both genders and so to moan about it happening to the one gender (the gender society finds it unacceptable to do it to) is a bit rich.Do you think women should just shut up and put up with being harassed and sexually assaulted until men are ready and able to be as vocal about not wanting to assaulted either?
No, they should "just shut up" talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.btw, I have to laugh at you calling my response a 'rant' - not everyone is as angry when they post as you appear to be...
Not anger, just passion.0 -
Outlaw Pete wrote: »I gave my reasoning already: it happens both genders and so to moan about it happening to the one gender (the gender society finds it unacceptable to do it to) is a bit rich.
No, they should "just shut up" talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.
Not anger, just passion.
Soo... you think it's a bit rich for women to complain about street harassment and sexual assault because men don't complain about it?
And women should only talk about incidents that achieve your personal standard of what constitutes harassment/sexual assault?
Wow.0 -
Soo... you think it's a bit rich for women to complain about street harassment and sexual assault because men don't complain about it?
lol. I literally just said:Outlaw Pete wrote: »No, they should "just shut up" (your words by the way) talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.
And yet straight away you talked about street harassment and being sexually assaulted in the same breath. It appears to be a hallmark of your posts to misrepresent users, not just myself but others to, and all in an effort to garner some backslaps it would appear. Why not try and retort something someone has actually said rather than strawmanning them.And women should only talk about incidents that achieve your personal standard of what constitutes harassment/sexual assault?
And yet more miscomprehension. I did not say that or anything like it. What I said was:Outlaw Pete wrote: »Amazes me that women in western society moan about such things in the context of it only happening them and it needing to stop given how it's so socially acceptable when it happens guys.
In other words: complain about catcalling, street harassment, being groped in clubs, leered at etc etc, all day long for all I care, but quit doing so in the context that it only happens women, or indeed that only men do it, cause that's far from the case.
https://twitter.com/TheEllenShow/status/9232309784194744340 -
I'm honestly struggling to see what point you're trying to make
Do you object to seeing street harassment being grouped with sexual assault? If so why? They exist on the same basic continuum, and one sometimes turns into the other.
Do you object to women complaining about being harassed or sexually assaulted because they don't in the same breath point out that men get sexually assaulted too?
Are you really that precious?
That's quite a sneaky bit of editing you did there:
Is what was there when I quoted you.No, they should "just shut up" talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.
What's apparently there when you quote yourself.No, they should "just shut up" (your words by the way) talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.0 -
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professore wrote: »Maybe from their mammies idolising them and telling them they can do no wrong?
I'd argue the daddies of Ireland have done something similar with daughters. I've seen more than my fair share. With one tearaway who's landlord finally got sick of her violating the rules of her accomodation, and called in her dad. (Got evicted).
Another had a house party where the guests ripped out the plumbing, but her dad was loaded-so he paid for the damages. She was really hyperactive, met her a few times, seemed to live on caffeine. (Yes, also evicted).
Seems like both sides are culpable, just one get blamed, and one doesn't. (And it's running theme among these extreme feminists that 'men are bad because they're not like daddy')0 -
So who’s winning the great, big internet battle of the genders today? That’s the important thing right?0
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The Fake Sheikh wrote: »So who’s winning the great, big internet battle of the genders today? That’s the important thing right?
Depends-there's more than one gender, right?0 -
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But don't you see that brushing one off can lead to the other?
In fairness now, I didn't brush anything off. I said I wouldn't equate the two circumstances, and that's taking them at face value. It's also entirely plausible that the young millennial who is constantly groped on nights out is traumatised by her experiences, whereas the isolated old lady is as tough as old boots and will tell you that was just 'the way it was' in her experience, she doesn't regard it as anything to be fussed about, she'd rather you just shut up about it and deal another hand of gin rummy while she reminisces about when she herself was a young girl and she has plenty of good memories!
The point is - everyone's experiences are relative. I wouldn't brush either off, but I'm not immediately going to be out with the tea and biscuits either, that's just not who I am as a person. I don't have to be asked to listen, I do already. Just because I haven't explicitly said something, doesn't mean I don't care at all. It just means I'm listening.The men perpetrating sexual violence against that isolated old woman didn't start as rapists. They started with catcalling in the street and laughing about it with their mates. They started with sticking their hand up a dress in a pub. They started with following a woman down the street yelling at her first for attention and then calling her a bitch.
Most men who even do that won't escalate , to rape, but rape in engendered by the idea that men have a right to women; to their bodies and to their attention, and for some men that will escalate from groping on the dance floor.
What they started out as, were respectable members of the community, who were utter fcuking monsters behind closed doors. See when I'm thinking of my examples, I'm drawing from the lived experiences of real women too. I have no interest in talking about whataboutery or 'reverse the genders' crap. We're talking about women's experiences here and I have plenty I can draw on. The men in many women's experiences that I have talked to didn't at all start out cat-calling and low-level harassing or any of the rest of it. There was no 'escalation'.
They are a minority of men, and when I say a minority, I mean the estimates we have for that kind of behaviour is generally around the 7% mark. That's 93% of men who do not, and never have, and never will engage in such behaviour. Still think your opinion was a fair and objective assessment of men? The chances are you're unlikely to change your mind because lived experience and anecdotes that we can relate to outstrips statistics by more than a couple of country miles. You think there are thousands of women coming forward with their stories of sexual harassment and men generally being a pain in the hole to women, well that simply ignores the fact that just in Ireland alone, there are millions of women, and young girls. What I'm saying is that if you put those figures in perspective, there really aren't the numbers of women subjected daily to men sexually harassing them and generally being a pain in the hole, and the numbers of women who experience far more than being groped or cat-called as they're walking down the street, is even less than that again.
It's still wrong, and it shouldn't happen, and women are right to speak up for themselves, but people are not obliged to listen, and they're even less likely to listen when the equivalence is made between being cat-called, and being raped. That's escalating. No, everything isn't "on a spectrum", and there are marked differences between many different circumstances.No, it may make no difference to some people, but if good men see their friends acting inappropriately and say something, just something like 'Jesus, Steve, stop hassling her'. If Steve's mates don't approve of what he's doing and say it to him he's more likely to stop doing it.
You know the old adage 'birds of a feather'? Well the same applies to people. They tend to gravitate towards people who are like them, and so generally the men who are engaging in that sort of behaviour will share a similar mindset with men who are just like them. They aren't going to be pulling their mates up on behaviour which you feel is inappropriate, because the group-think in their group, sees you as the problem, not any of them.And even if you don't equate groping to rape; how would you feel if every time you went out random strangers thought it was ok to grab your penis?
You really are asking the wrong person that question, because I made a very good living at it at one point in my life :pac:
Look, I do take your point, but you assume that asking me that question means I'm supposed to say "I wouldn't like it", and if I'm being truthful with you the answer is that it depends on whether I actually find said random stranger attractive or not. I generally don't tend to find gay men attractive, so even when they do engage in some unwelcome groping, I'm able to handle myself so I'm not as threatened by it as you would be if a man were doing the same to you. That's why reversing the genders is a stupid argument - you're completely changing the circumstances and changing what actually happened, into a hypothetical, and we both know hypotheticals can go anywhere!
However, because I understand that you're not me, and given your experiences you've given in this thread so far, I would have no doubt that any unwanted attention would be far more intimidating for you than it would be for me, so I do get the point you were at least aiming for.Low level harassment leads to high level issues.
Yeah, about that. That used to be the general theory alright, or the traditionally held belief if you will, and that's how a number of men who were in the dock for their behaviour, their solicitors were able to argue that they themselves had experienced abuse as children so they couldn't have known any better. That was the generally accepted mitigating circumstances which often meant that in sentencing they received far more lenient sentences. If it hadn't been for researchers who actually questioned this belief, we would never be aware now that this simply isn't so - that far more men who committed rape didn't experience any abuse as children, that they actually came from decent family backgrounds (ok we still use the "he was a member of the GAA" here), but in other countries, people are really beginning to question the whole idea that was based on a belief in correlation = causation.
In short, low level harassment really doesn't always lead to high level issues, and high level issues aren't always the result of low level harassment. They're two very different things.We need to start at the bottom to change this. Women have to deal with stress from men (some men, apparently I have to make that clear every single time because gods forbid some bloke gets his feelings hurt) on an ongoing, daily, basis.
"I don't care that some women get their feelings hurt because my sense of entitlement is more important than their hurt feelings."
You see how that sounds? That's exactly how that came across, and that's why the same way you treat men with contempt, it shouldn't come as a surprise that you'll get the same in return when you want them to listen to you. That's still not me saying "what about the men?", I'm saying that you're making the point that men don't listen to women, and obviously you're hurt by that, and that's understandable. What's not so understandable is that you think men should listen to you, while at the same time you completely disregard how what you're saying may hurt men.
Personally, I couldn't give a shiny shyte either way when you come out with that stuff, I've heard worse, much, much worse, but as Bojangles made the point earlier about some women being able to handle the abuse they get, and some women aren't, so too are some men able to handle the abuse they get, and some men aren't. What makes your feelings any more valid than theirs that you feel you shouldn't have to consider their feelings while expecting consideration for how you feel?Pretending it's not an issue because it's not physical assault is a shtty thing to do.
That much at least, we can agree on.
But then, everything's an issue, and because people are individuals, they're going to prioritise issues that more to them, than prioritise the issues that matter to you, over their own. That's why they don't equate cat-calling with physical assault, not because it's a shítty thing to do, but because people generally don't view them as being in the same league.If you can instill in young men that disrespecting women is not acceptable you will likely see a drop in serious incidents when those men are of age.
That might sound perfectly logical in theory, but it has no basis in reality. The point being that no matter how much some men learn that disrespecting women is not acceptable, when they come of age they will have formed an opinion of women for themselves, and will act on that basis, not the basis of having learned all their lives that disrespecting women is not acceptable. If you can view men as a potential threat, then it shouldn't surprise you that there are men who view women as a potential threat. It has been instilled in you from a young age that men are a threat to you, so you've come to view men as a potential threat to you. I think it would be better for society if you were to examine your own attitude first before you start telling other people how to raise their children.
As it happens, I do have a young son, and in spite of seamus' poor car analogy (that's not what chivalry means to me at all!), I have always taught him to have respect for women. I have also taught him to have respect for men. Most importantly, I have taught him to have respect for himself. None of these are actually mutually exclusive. They are ideas that complement each other, rather than conflict with each other. It's presenting them in such a way as though they actually do conflict with each other is what causes people to experience cognitive dissonance.0 -
I'm very conflicted about the whole thing, so I won't address it head-on yet. But one thing I am sure of, is the no woman should feel like they "have" to share their story now. The whole #metoo thing is fine, but not every woman who's experienced assault/abuse/harassment wants to relive that. Mostly, they just want to move on. Personally, I never read the articles about it, aside from checking the last few pages of this thread. As someone who was involved in a serious assault, I feel no need to tell the whole world on social media. In fact, I'd find it incredibly draining and painful to do that. The anxiety would be too much. Which also makes me question just how bad some of the women using this hashtag have been affected by things like catcalling etc. Catcalling sucks, yes. But will it change your life forever, no? I don't like the way lesser "crimes" such as a "hey babe" in the street are being discussed in the same context with serious sexual assault. So #metoo, isn't for me. But I am very much behind why it exists in the first place.0
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I'm very conflicted about the whole thing, so I won't address it head-on yet. But one thing I am sure of, is the no woman should feel like they "have" to share their story now. The whole #metoo thing is fine, but not every woman who's experienced assault/abuse/harassment wants to relive that. Mostly, they just want to move on. Personally, I never read the articles about it, aside from checking the last few pages of this thread. As someone who was involved in a serious assault, I feel no need to tell the whole world on social media. In fact, I'd find it incredibly draining and painful to do that. The anxiety would be too much. Which also makes me question just how bad some of the women using this hashtag have been affected by things like catcalling etc. Catcalling sucks, yes. But will it change your life forever, no? I don't like the way lesser "crimes" such as a "hey babe" in the street are being discussed in the same context with serious sexual assault. So #metoo, isn't for me. But I am very much behind why it exists in the first place.
I am very sorry you had to experience that. Nobody should go through such an incident.
You don't have to share your story-that's yours to keep to yourself. And as many noted, those who cannot say it-that's fine. I would argue many people, myself included, respect your privacy.
I haven't experienced sexual abuse or assault. But I did experience bullying, stuff I didn't know how to deal with and still don't-as it seemed everyone and the teachers picked on me. I couldn't go into too much detail online either, not with my real name, for sure.
I also understand the anxiety rape, and sexual assault can cause, from speaking with others.
It's everyone's choice to speak out-but it's not your fault that it happened to you, and it's your own business what you wish to speak about.0 -
I do think genuinely less harassment occurs publically in Ireland compared to other countries. Catholic guilt still teaches us that overtly sexual displays are wrong and shameful; for both men and women.kunst nugget wrote: »I would have thought Dublin and Ireland would have had a mild level of street harassment compared to other countries. A Brisbane emigrant comments on it in this 'New to the Parish' piece for the IT…
My wife went to college in London in the early 00's, and a couple of weeks in she commented about how up-front the English men were compared to the Irish. That they were not at all shy about coming up and talking to you, asking to buy a drink and then graciously going away when declined.
Compared to the Irishman's drunken drool on your shoulder followed by a vice-like grab of the arse before they go away, she thought it was great.
After a couple of months though, it wasn't so great. It was relentless. In the street, in shops, in bars, on public transport. Perfectly polite for the most part, but. Go. The. Fnck. Away. And. Leave. Me. Alone.
After that she was somewhat appreciative of the Irish repressed spirit.
But that's not to say women in Ireland "Have it good". Whether it's being constantly talked to in the street or groped in a pub by a drunkard, no-one should have to put up with either. The preferable scenario is that people could go about their day or go enjoy a drink in the pub without some randomer coming up and trying to chat them up, or grab their arse, or have a sneaky rub off their tits.0 -
I worked for a year with one of the most physically beautiful women - in fact the most beautiful - I have ever known. She was of southern latin Europe. She told me that Ireland was great because men didn't hassle her all the time like happened in her own country. She didn't say it NEVER happened, but a far cry from 7 days a week like other posters have claimed.
EDIT: Just asked my oldest daughter about this who is in college. She says this happens her and her friends all the time. More often when they are out at night but also during the day. Also she is the opposite of a radical feminist and has her head screwed on very tightly, definitely not someone to exaggerate about stuff like this. Wow. I really had no idea.
Things must be pretty bad where my friend comes from! I guess she is quite a bit older than my daughter so that probably plays a role.0 -
I think people - and I include myself here - are all guilty of seeing what is in their immediate vicinity and taking that as the way society works.
So if you are a middle aged man working in a professional environment like myself with educated people, you don't see harassment going on - not saying it's not going on one on one where you can't hear it, but it's not overt. So you think it's much ado about nothing. On the other hand, when you see people you know marriage breakups, rampant cheating, sex parties, swinging, etc you think everyone is at it. And it's not just men at it. Both genders are at it equally.
If you are a young woman on the other hand, it is thrust in your face (probably literally sometimes) . So you think all men are perverts and out to rape you.
No one talks about the vast majority of people who just get on with their daily lives, struggling to pay for kids, rent or mortgage and keeping the boss happy.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »LLMMLL already suggested/stated that it was near on impossible to follow up on the low level harassment... so It's completely illogical to start at the bottom with the areas that you believe can't be enforced.
- Register the extreme acts of harassment/abuse, form statistical proof, get the whole society behind it, and then Deal harshly with the extreme acts of harassment/abuse. Once that stain of behavior has been removed/severely limited, then turn to dealing with the lesser offenses.
I didn't pretend that it's not an issue. In fact, I have suggested a logical and reasonable step towards reducing this kind of behavior. start thinking of logical, reasonable steps to reduce this behavior without alienating either gender.
We've already had that attitude for decades. Gentleman? Our mothers usually taught us not to play so rough near girls, to respect them, to consider ourselves as their protectors. Movies, literature, the media, have all reinforced this attitude that men were supposed to protect women. What happens when a ship sinks? Women and children first. There are loads upon loads of other examples of how society places the welfare of women ahead of men.
Then "women"/society told us that they didn't want our protection and that behaving like a gentleman was sexist.
And even back when we were encouraged to behave like fine young gentlemen, and protect women, there were still ignorant ****s who harassed or abused women. Relying on society or culture is no longer as effective. There's been too much movement towards idividualism, non-conformist attitudes, etc.
Huh? The way your mind works is... interesting. Let me put it this way. I've known many women to lie, and many women to tell the truth. Telling a lie, exaggerating, etc are not gender based.
Maybe they would... if they were receiving harassment or abuse that is illegal.
And then we would be able to verify the claims, etc etc etc. Get's tiresome repeating the same thing.
Do you want change, or do you want to rant without any real change?
As for dog ****, the signs and enforced fines have worked wonders in my hometown. It does happen still, but very rarely.
Yup. I won't accept the fact... Because "your" experiences have not been proven to be true, there is no frame of reference for time, location, or circumstances.
You said all that... not me. I have from the beginning repeated the expectation that claims need to be verified before they can be considered.
Let me put it this way. Someone goes online and says she was raped by you. They tell everybody on the internet about how you stalked her, drugged hit her, abused her, and raped her. (You're innocent. You don't even know the girl). But for whatever reason, she has decided that you are a rapist. So she goes online ranting and raving about how you abused her, building up a following on twitter, and feminists online support her calling you a monster, and demanding that you be punished.
Under your logic, your innocence would be irrelevant, because we must believe that she was raped. Because she is female.
Wouldn't you prefer that she went to the police and that the matter be properly investigated? And you're proven innocent! Yay!. But your reputation is in ruins. Thousands of people online think you're still a rapist and the law was wrong. The girl gets a slap on the wrist for making a false claim and goes back to claiming that you abused her. She writes an ebook, and makes a fortune off your misery... and you'll live the rest of your life with the reputation that you might be a rapist.
This isn't about women as a gender lying. This isn't about men as a gender lying. This is about issues that ruin peoples lives. False claims do as much damage to innocents as the punishments meted out to the guilty. False Rape claims are a fact. They happen. Same with false claims for many other crimes.
All claims should be investigated and confirmed.
How could women report rape cases?
We have an 80% male government.
Many, many women were sexually assaulted. Very few cases resulted in conviction. Women were seen as second class citizens and had no where to turn.
I would just really like to get it through to you how it feels to be the physically weaker person, and know that many of the ones around you that are physically stronger than you and are meant to protect you, instead want to harm you.
Be sexually assaulted, know that the government is biased towards men , and know that there was absolutely no recourse for action.
That is the world we lived in. thank God, thank god it is finally changing.
It will take men to finally see women's suffering, say it is not OK anymore for it to stop happening0 -
midlandsmissus wrote: »How could women report rape cases?
We have an 80% male government.
Many, many women were sexually assaulted. Very few cases resulted in conviction. Women were seen as second class citizens and had no where to turn.
I would just really like to get it through to you how it feels to be the physically weaker person, and know that many of the ones around you that are physically stronger than you and are meant to protect you, instead want to harm you.
Be sexually assaulted, know that the government is biased towards men , and know that there was absolutely no recourse for action.
That is the world we lived in. thank God, thank god it is finally changing.
It will take men to finally see women's suffering, say it is not OK anymore for it to stop happening
I think that this is very hysterical if I'm honest. Look at all of the men in your life- can you honestly say that the majority of them are out to harm you? Why would you then think that this is the case for wider society? It's simply untrue- and you're working yourself up into a frenzy of unnecessary mass hysteria if this how you live your life. The amount of people around you who intend on harming you is in the absolute minority. I have had awful things happen to me at the hands of men- but I do not carry those incidents around with me and use them as a barometer from which I judge every action of every man. I take them as they were- unfortunate isolated events, that happened at the hands of a horrible person. I've had far more pleasant experiences with men than negative ones- so I believe that if I judged them on my negative experiences alone I would be judging them unfairly. Same with the women in my life.
Your post has more assumptions in it than Mother Most Holy.0 -
Initially I was frustrated with this campaign as it's just another big stick to beat straight white men with. To clarify - none of my friends behave this way (any more). I know, because I've occasionally stepped in and stopped potential bad behaviour. I've rebuked my friend for loudly commenting on a girls appearance late at night by equally loudly telling him "don't be a d1ck, she doesn't need that hassle, leave her off".
I'm no white knight, I'm no feminist, I just understand what it must feel like to feel vulnerable.
However, this campaign did spur me to talk to my girlfriend about her experiences. She told me lots of anecdotes about feeling uncomfortable. She was followed around the Pavilions in Swords last weekend by a guy who eventually offered to buy the dress she was trying out if she went for a coffee with him. When she told me, I was really sympathetic and listened to her. Inside, I was fcuking raging. I'd have seen red - just like if I'd seen lads harrassing young girls, or groping women on trains.
I'm representative of a lot of guys on this thread and in Irish society. We don't tolerate that behaviour. Being blamed for it frustrates us and that's why some of the backlash on this thread is present (some of it is bat**** Red Pill crazy stuff though). We don't want thanks for being decent, we just want to not feel guilty for having a set of balls:D:D0 -
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midlandsmissus wrote: »How could women report rape cases?
Through the Police? Application of the law?We have an 80% male government.
Relevance? Or is this a particularly sexist comment? Want more women in government, then encourage more women to run for the government and gain popular support.Many, many women were sexually assaulted. Very few cases resulted in conviction. Women were seen as second class citizens and had no where to turn.
When are you talking about? 50 years ago? You really think women are being treated as second-class citizens in Ireland or other Western countries? Seriously?I would just really like to get it through to you how it feels to be the physically weaker person, and know that many of the ones around you that are physically stronger than you and are meant to protect you, instead want to harm you.
Not all men are physically strong. I'm tall, and very skinny with a metabolism that makes gaining muscles an extremely difficult activity even with professional guidance. Being tall makes me a target. Being male makes me a target. Having a shaking disorder makes me a target. I've probably been exposed to far more threatening experiences, or actual fights than you have.
Men are targets too. Probably moreso than women in many situations. You at least have a portion of the male population to come to your aid. If I get into trouble, very few strangers are going to rush to my aid. And afterward when the police arrive, they'll assume that you were innocent of most types of behavior, whereas I wouldn't get that kind of consideration.
The difference between us is that I learned to defend myself. I was bullied and beaten up regularly in primary/secondary school, and later I was jumped by gangs on three different occasions. After I was hospitalized a few times, I swore it wouldn't happen again, and I took excessive amounts of classes in various unarmed combat classes.
You might find it interesting that I met some women who learned to fight extremely well against guys weighing three-four times their weight or twice their height. Just Stop being a victim. You do have a choice.Be sexually assaulted, know that the government is biased towards men , and know that there was absolutely no recourse for action.
The government is biased towards men? Strange. I could swear that divorce settlements tend to favor women. Same with custody battles. Or sentencing of men vs women for similar crimes. Or... I could go on. Plenty of examples to show that you're talking out of your arse.
Regarding sexual assault, I don't know. Care you prove your assertions? I have an open mind and I'm willing to be educated. (links along with the claims)That is the world we lived in. thank God, thank god it is finally changing. It will take men to finally see women's suffering, say it is not OK anymore for it to stop happening
It's been changing for quite some time now. Perhaps stop looking at the past and consider looking at the present?0 -
professore wrote: »I worked for a year with one of the most physically beautiful women - in fact the most beautiful - I have ever known. She was of southern latin Europe. She told me that Ireland was great because men didn't hassle her all the time like happened in her own country. She didn't say it NEVER happened, but a far cry from 7 days a week like other posters have claimed.
EDIT: Just asked my oldest daughter about this who is in college. She says this happens her and her friends all the time. More often when they are out at night but also during the day. Also she is the opposite of a radical feminist and has her head screwed on very tightly, definitely not someone to exaggerate about stuff like this. Wow. I really had no idea.
Things must be pretty bad where my friend comes from! I guess she is quite a bit older than my daughter so that probably plays a role.
Yup if you don't actually ask women you know if this happens to them you won't pick up on it yourself.
People think that because they don't notice it it doesn't happen. You've just demonstrated how deluded these people are.0 -
In fairness, Zulu, the issue with men, or rather a lot of men, is that they simply don't believe that it happens. A blinkered mentality kicks is where they can't conceive of something happening unless they see it with their own eyes, so while they might occasionally see a woman getting hassled on the bus they don't realise that that woman got hassled at the bus stop too, and in the supermarket, and at the gym, and that it happens 4 days a week, every week, for years.
Most men just don't realise how much this pervades women's lives and therefore they refuse to see what they see as an occasional 'howya darlin'' as a problem, and refuse to believe women when they say it is.
After all, if some men are doing it, but the majority of women are experiencing it, then those few men must be a hell of an issue, yeah?
Some men hassle women, a lot more men don't realise how much of a problem this is.
Fantastic that you can know what most men think
Silly men can't think about things that they haven't seen 0 -
Yup if you don't actually ask women you know if this happens to them you won't pick up on it yourself.
People think that because they don't notice it it doesn't happen. You've just demonstrated how deluded these people are.
To think people are that lacking in awareness of their world around them is what's really utterly deluded. People are generally well aware that it happens. They just have other, more important to them, priorities. I've never for example actually asked any woman I've known has she experienced any kind of harassment or intimidation, and yet I'm very much aware that it happens. I have picked up on it and I do pick up on it.
I'm guessing you've picked up on the backlash that metoo advocates are getting, but I wonder are you aware of just how condescending it comes across to treat people as though they merely possess the intellect and self-awareness of a grape. There's a world of a difference between telling people about something, and demanding peoples attention, demanding that they do this, that and the other, to make your life easier.
I totally get it that for people who experience anxiety in social situations for example, that they would have a heightened sense of fear and trepidation, that they would feel intimidated in many social settings, like for example I was in the club last night and making my way through the crowd to try and get to the bar I felt like I was giving birth to myself it was that tight a squeeze to try and manoeuver between people. If I were to take on board the idea that I should avoid people for fear of intimidating them, I'd never leave the house.
You're expecting that you should be able to put an unfair burden of responsibility on the majority of men, for the behaviour of a minority of men, who intimidate and harass a minority of women, and you're expecting that people should make your top priority their top priority, and you're expecting the majority of people to take that seriously. I'm actually glad that people are quite aware too that they aren't obliged to take that seriously, because otherwise when I lost my footing last night and fell on the ground, the girl who was half my size who came over and manhandled me in an attempt to try and pick me up, would never have come over and wouldn't have tried to help. She would be taking your "advice" on board and not have approached a complete stranger, etc. I wasn't embarrassed that she was manhandling me, I was embarrassed that she was even trying to help in the first place, because she was half my size and tbh her attempts were futile. But here's the thing - I could see that at least her intent was good. I appreciated her efforts and wasn't thinking "Ugh, don't touch me, don't touch me", whatever.
The point being - advocates of this metoo stuff want to place an unrealistic standard of behaviour on the majority of men, because of the actions and attitudes of a minority of men, and they assume that they represent the majority of women, whom they never asked should they represent them, because they assume men aren't aware of an issue which affects women if they've never asked. There's a blatant double standard there for starters, and if anyone is actually oblivious, it's people who assume that other people couldn't possibly be aware of an issue or aware of the scale or the effects of an issue, because they've never asked.
Men didn't just emerge from an isolation bubble when they came of age. They too have grown up with the same awareness of their world and their surroundings and the people in their lives, as women have, so to suggest that men couldn't possibly be aware of an issue because they've never asked women about it, is really the stuff of nonsense. It's the kind of thinking I'd expect from a self-absorbed misanthrope, and that's exactly where I see this metoo stuff coming from. Fortunately for society, and Irish society at least, the numbers of authoritative self-absorbed misanthropes are a statistical outlier, in such a vanishingly small minority that they really don't present a credible threat to society, they're about as prevalent an issue as the issue they claim that the vast majority in society are affected by, but most people in that society just, don't, see it.
Of course they do. It's just not as much a priority as the multitude of other issues that people may have going on in their lives.0 -
excellent post, One eyed Jack. Far better than I could have put it.0
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JFK syndrome but with the consent issue being a bit fuzzy in certain cases0
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I have to admit, I find it quite intriguing-tho not all that understandable-that while many of those who are sharing their 'metoo' stories are women, some of the most outspoken critics of this are also women.
Asia Argento, for example, thought she might get a lot of criticism from men, and while there were a few (And no, I don't condone shaming anyone for harassment, assault or rape-I find that abhorrent)-it was women who absolutely savaged her. Which I really don't know what to think of that. Of it all really. (Italy has this ugly 'blame the victim' cultural thing-it's seriously sinister).
Guys can be much more sympathetic, in my experiences, towards a woman getting harassed. (I know one female friend got tons of support from her guy friends after she almost got attacked in a taxi...ladies were scant with the usual 'she was asking for trouble').0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »To think people are that lacking in awareness of their world around them is what's really utterly deluded.................... I have picked up on it and I do pick up on it.
Yet my response was to a guy who only understood how much it happened once he asked his own daughter. The fact is that people are genuinely unaware of how much it goes on. Just because you THINK you are very aware of it (and maybe YOU are.... Maybe) doesn't mean everyone else is. And it's pretty clear they're not.
I'm guessing you've picked up on the backlash that metoo advocates are gettin...................||make your life easier.
Whether it's to do with intelligence or just lack of awareness. And whether people can be blamed for these things or it can be out down to natural human nature is all debatable. That doesn't change that there are huge number of people who do not understand others experiences. Assuming you're a white straight male you will never understand the experiences of black people, gay people, women etc.
You can claim I'm underestimating peoples intelligence all you like. I am not saying these people are unintelligent. I am saying people tend not to understand the experiences of people who are different to them.
I totally get it that for people who experience anxiety in social situations .......................... I'd never leave the house.
You assume you get it. And if you have anxiety maybe you do get it. But I've heard countless people tell other people with social anxiety to "just go to the party, you'll enjoy it when you get there". There are millions of people who JUST DONT GET IT.
You're expecting that you should be able to put an unfair burden of responsibility on the majority of ..................But here's the thing - I could see that at least her intent was good. I appreciated her efforts and wasn't thinking "Ugh, don't touch me, don't touch me", whatever.
I don't know where i put the burden on the majority of men. All I said was it's easy to assume this stuff doesn't happen much if you don't ask women.
The point being - advocates of this metoo stuff want to place ?.......................it's people who assume that other people couldn't possibly be aware of an issue or aware of the scale or the effects of an issue, because they've never asked.
Well you made most of this stuff up. Metoo is mostly about women sharing experiences. Not claiming they represent all women. It's so ridiculous. A woman reads stories on me too. Decides to post her own. Then all these angry men start saying "not all men, and you don't represent all women". Talk about lacking in intelligence. The average metoo poster is not claiming to represent all women and is not blaming all men. I've probably been the most aggressive person on this thread in terms of the number of men I think have harassed.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Obsessed? Hmm... Yup. Think of the example I used about a false rape claim. These accusations do ruin lives.
..............
So, yes. I am focused on claims that potentially can ruin someone's reputation/life be verified.
The vast majority of metoo posts do not name or hint at the men's identity. The only ones in m aware of being named publicly are celebrities. It's a red herring to raise that as an issue with metooYou are so focused on dismissing my suggestion. You pointed out the difficulty of verifying these "lower" types of harassment, and I said to focus on the higher levels of harassment. The serious issues. Which this thread has repeatedly sought to highlight as being widespread. And in return, you dismiss that in favor of complaining about the "lower" types of harassment.
Utterly Bizarre. DO you want to change things for the better, or just have something to complain about?
I'm not saying don't deal with higher levels of harassment. But this idea that you focus on them and only then try and deal with lower level harassment is pure nonsense. It's like saying let's deal with murders and only then deal with serious assaults.0 -
Yet my response was to a guy who only understood how much it happened once he asked his own daughter. The fact is that people are genuinely unaware of how much it goes on. Just because you THINK you are very aware of it (and maybe YOU are.... Maybe) doesn't mean everyone else is. And it's pretty clear they're not.
TBH based on how you've posted to this thread, it doesn't matter what anyone says. If they say that they do know how often it happens, you will say that they don't. Only you can see it because you've asked some women about it. Gosh! It must be nice to be so enlightened.
But the truth is that we do see it happening around us. Oh, I'm not suggesting that men see all of it because we are not on the receiving end, and also it really depends on the persons' perception of what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior. We are all limited by our personal perception of the world.Whether it's to do with intelligence or just lack of awareness. And whether people can be blamed for these things or it can be out down to natural human nature is all debatable. That doesn't change that there are huge number of people who do not understand others experiences. Assuming you're a white straight male you will never understand the experiences of black people, gay people, women etc.
Hardly intelligence. Culture is likely to play a huge role and the manner in which you were brought up. If you were raised in a family that taught a man to protect women from both emotional and physical abuse, then you're more likely to pick up on the harassment/abuse that happens around them. If you were raised in a family where men played a dominent role in everything, then it's likely you wouldn't pick up on it. There are so many factors to determine whether a man might notice these things.You assume you get it. And if you have anxiety maybe you do get it. But I've heard countless people tell other people with social anxiety to "just go to the party, you'll enjoy it when you get there". There are millions of people who JUST DONT GET IT.
Sure, some people won't get it. However, quite a few will get rather close to understanding. Not full understanding unless you have the condition, and even then, their perception of social anxiety will be different because it's based on their individual perception and experiences... A social anxiety is something that most people can relate to because of the way education is taught in schools. Our educational system pushes students into the limelight for drama, spelling tests, debates and... punishments, which just encourages people to become anxious or feel anxiety in many different situations.
And it's similar with harassment. Harassment is not left solely to women to experience. I've had two stalkers in my life. A former girlfriend and a homosexual student of mine. Both were very uncomfortable, hostile and somewhat dangerous experiences.I don't know where i put the burden on the majority of men. All I said was it's easy to assume this stuff doesn't happen much if you don't ask women.
Whereas I think most men know or have the capacity to know that it happens. It's just that most people are focused on their own stresses, and pressures to spare much time for others.Then all these angry men start saying "not all men, and you don't represent all women". Talk about lacking in intelligence.You can claim I'm underestimating peoples intelligence all you like. I am not saying these people are unintelligent. I am saying people tend not to understand the experiences of people who are different to them.
Yup. You're not. :rolleyes:The vast majority of metoo posts do not name or hint at the men's identity. The only ones in m aware of being named publicly are celebrities. It's a red herring to raise that as an issue with metoo
You've just said that they name celebrities. That's a beginning. There is no telling how the metoo campaign will develop over time. I never understand why people are so shortsighted about these movements or campaigns. If enough people feel the metoo campaign to be a success, then a lot more will be spawned from it.
The vast majority of metoo posts do not name or hint at the men's identity
So, some do? And when you say a minority, we're not talking about one or two names either, are we? thousands of women have submitted to the Metoo campaign... and how many have named or made traceable references to men? Dozens? hundreds perhaps?I'm not saying don't deal with higher levels of harassment. But this idea that you focus on them and only then try and deal with lower level harassment is pure nonsense. It's like saying let's deal with murders and only then deal with serious assaults.
You, and others have repeatedly spoken about the 'widespread' harassment/abuse that women have to experience daily. You have suggested that this is something that is very common. Therefore it stands to reason that we must start somewhere. You have repeatedly suggested that lower types of harassment cannot effectively be reported or handled. So... It is logical to start with those that can be effectively reported and handled.
Otherwise, nothing will ever get done to improve the situation. You keep saying that you understand the harassment that women experience, but you keep throwing out very limited objections to helping them. At least, kylith made reasonable suggestions for men to help out with reducing harassment. You just criticise, and object.0 -
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Asked the wife about this stuff
She thinks it's a load of auld ****e
There's a reason she's the wife 😎0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »TBH based on how you've posted to this thread, it doesn't matter what anyone says. If they say that they do know how often it happens, you will say that they don't. Only you can see it because you've asked some women about it. Gosh! It must be nice to be so enlightened.
But the truth is that we do see it happening around us. Oh, I'm not suggesting that men see all of it because we are not on the receiving end, and also it really depends on the persons' perception of what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior. We are all limited by our personal perception of the world.
You're basically agreeing with me. As you say, Men don't see all of it and therefore do not realise how common it is.
Hardly intelligence. Culture is likely to play a huge role and the manner in which you were brought up. If you were raised in a family that taught a man to protect women from both emotional and physical abuse, then you're more likely to pick up on the harassment/abuse that happens around them. If you were raised in a family where men played a dominent role in everything, then it's likely you wouldn't pick up on it. There are so many factors to determine whether a man might notice these things.
And one of those factors is being male and not directly experiencing it. It's not limited to just the "wrong families". If you're male you won't know how much this goes on unless you ask women. Even if you have spotted the odd case yourself.
Sure, some people won't get it. However, quite a few will get rather close to understanding. Not full understanding unless you have the condition, and even then, their perception of social anxiety will be different because it's based on their individual perception and experiences... A social anxiety is something that most people can relate to because of the way education is taught in schools. Our educational system pushes students into the limelight for drama, spelling tests, debates and... punishments, which just encourages people to become anxious or feel anxiety in many different situations.
And it's similar with harassment. Harassment is not left solely to women to experience. I've had two stalkers in my life. A former girlfriend and a homosexual student of mine. Both were very uncomfortable, hostile and somewhat dangerous experiences.
Exactly. Agreeing with me again. Some people do have a better understanding of social anxiety. Because people with social anxiety talked about their experiences. People talking about their social anxiety generally aren't told that they must be lying or that their experiences didn't need to be listened to because everyone already knew it was a problem but not that big a problem.
Whereas I think most men know or have the capacity to know that it happens. It's just that most people are focused on their own stresses, and pressures to spare much time for others.
Yeah that's partially why men don't understand how.common harassment is. But it's beside the point. My point is the FACT that men don't realise how much it happens. You're just giving a reason why my point is true. Again you seem to be agreeing with me. Men are not aware of how common harassment is.Yup. You're not. :rolleyes:
I am questioning the intelligence of men who think that a woman who makes a post to metoo detailing incidents of sexual harassment she has experienced is "talking for all women" as one eyed jack seems to think.
I was not saying that men who do not realise the levels of harrassment going on are unintelligent. The fact that you needed that explained though .........
You've just said that they name celebrities. That's a beginning. There is no telling how the metoo campaign will develop over time. I never understand why people are so shortsighted about these movements or campaigns. If enough people feel the metoo campaign to be a success, then a lot more will be spawned from it.
The vast majority of metoo posts do not name or hint at the men's identity
So, some do? And when you say a minority, we're not talking about one or two names either, are we? thousands of women have submitted to the Metoo campaign... and how many have named or made traceable references to men? Dozens? hundreds perhaps?
I've seen zero mentions of a mans name on a metoo tweet so I'm not saying some do. So perhaps zero. Have you seen anyone named In a metoo post? Could you link to it if so?
You, and others have repeatedly spoken about the 'widespread' harassment/abuse that women have to experience daily. You have suggested that this is something that is very common. Therefore it stands to reason that we must start somewhere. You have repeatedly suggested that lower types of harassment cannot effectively be reported or handled. So... It is logical to start with those that can be effectively reported and handled.
Otherwise, nothing will ever get done to improve the situation. You keep saying that you understand the harassment that women experience, but you keep throwing out very limited objections to helping them. At least, kylith made reasonable suggestions for men to help out with reducing harassment. You just criticise, and object.
Not at all. I think we can address both at the same time. How would you even set a level for higher level assaults to be "dealt with" before "dealing" with lower level harrassment. It's pure nonsense.
They can both be addressed at the same time. Higher level stuff through law and education/culture change.
Lower level stuff through law IF POSSIBLE but mainly through culture change and education.
I am not avoiding solutions at all. You are ignoring that I've said metoo is part of the solution. Metoo educated those willing to listen about how prevalent harrassment is. Some men will believe these women (hopefully most) and examine their own behavioir and hopefully modify it.0 -
You're basically agreeing with me. As you say, Men don't see all of it and therefore do not realise how common it is.
You really do see what you want to see. But then I realised that much earlier in this thread.And one of those factors is being male and not directly experiencing it. It's not limited to just the "wrong families". If you're male you won't know how much this goes on unless you ask women. Even if you have spotted the odd case yourself.
I said that there were many factors. You want to make these things so simple to explain away. Your perception of this harassment/abuse is based on the woman you spoke to. Speak to another woman, and you'll get another perception. And another woman, another perception.
Some will perceive that a man being a gentleman is being offensive to her. Some will be more along the lines of being touched. Some will find issues with what men say. Whilst others will not react at all to those other opinions at all.Exactly. Agreeing with me again. Some people do have a better understanding of social anxiety. Because people with social anxiety talked about their experiences. People talking about their social anxiety generally aren't told that they must be lying or that their experiences didn't need to be listened to because everyone already knew it was a problem but not that big a problem.
Not agreeing with you. You have no real conception of what women truly experience. Asking a woman will not help much beyond giving you an inkling... because everything is based on individual perception.
I have a shaking disorder called essential tremor. The symptoms are similar amongst those who have it, but never exactly the same. The experience of essential tremor, the experience of living with it, and the way we come to terms with it is vastly different between those that suffer it. I've been to medical conferences about this "disorder" and heard those opinions from sufferers. There are similarities, and that can give a degree of insight, but little more.
Social anxiety is similiar in that people can experience parts of the same feelings, but the way they interpret those feelings is different.Yeah that's partially why men don't understand how.common harassment is.
Nope. We are aware that it's common. We just don't tend to think about it much. It's been accepted as a fact of life. Just like most men would see my shakes and know instinctively that I've been bullied for it. they're not going to bother talking to me about it, because there's no real way to stop such behavior... why? Because it's still socially acceptable to pick on those that are different.
In the case of women though, it's not socially acceptable to behave that way (in western societies). But, most men are not going to pick up on it because they can't change it. Individually. Most guys I know have at one time or another stepped in to physically protect a woman from a man (or another woman), and come off worse for wear. Or the knowledge that many women do not want our help. The ship with the knight in shining armor routine sailed a few years ago. Many men I know are very wary about involving themselves in other peoples problems because of what they've experienced or what they've heard their friends talk about.But it's beside the point. My point is the FACT that men don't realise how much it happens.
A FACT is it? Go on. Prove it to me. Provide me with five links from reputable scientific/psychological sources to prove your FACT.You're just giving a reason why my point is true. Again you seem to be agreeing with me. Men are not aware of how common harassment is.
Awareness does not mean that people have to acknowledge or intervene.I am questioning the intelligence of men who think that a woman who makes a post to metoo detailing incidents of sexual harassment she has experienced is "talking for all women" as one eyed jack seems to think.
You're questioning one eyed jack's intelligence? Oh lord. That poster is smart, and articulate. I'll leave it to him to cut you off at the knees.I was not saying that men who do not realise the levels of harrassment going on are unintelligent. The fact that you needed that explained though .........
Ahh more facts. Lovely. I posted your two quotes sides by side to show your issue with their intelligence and still you're defending it. They were your words.I've seen zero mentions of a mans name on a metoo tweet so I'm not saying some do. So perhaps zero. Have you seen anyone named In a metoo post? Could you link to it if so?
Strange. You did suggest otherwise earlier.Not at all. I think we can address both at the same time. How would you even set a level for higher level assaults to be "dealt with" before "dealing" with lower level harassment. It's pure nonsense.
I'm done repeating myself. I've said this at least five times now based on your objections and enough is enough.They can both be addressed at the same time. Higher level stuff through law and education/culture change.
Lower level stuff through law IF POSSIBLE but mainly through culture change and education.
The law already has a definite female bias. Education? From pre-school, primary school, and secondary school, women outnumber men as teachers. And at university level quotas are set to remove any 'unfair' ratios of men vs women. And perhaps think abiut parenting, the number of stay at home mothers far outnumbers men.
So when exactly does that education start? Children/teens learn primarily through school time and the time at home. Women already have a rather strong influence over the raising of children... and yet, they need more education? Right.I am not avoiding solutions at all. You are ignoring that I've said metoo is part of the solution. Metoo educated those willing to listen about how prevalent harrassment is. Some men will believe these women (hopefully most) and examine their own behavioir and hopefully modify it.
Metoo isn't even close to an answer. This thread shows the lack of faith female posters have in the law, even to the point they would prefer complaining on the internet than to report offenses.
If change is to come, it must come through official channels through the use of proper research and effective measures to reduce this kind of behavior. The minority of men out there that behave this way only respect strength, and they should be punished as criminals. Throw the book at them, make examples of them, and send a clear message that the behavior of real harassment/abuse is not acceptable.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I said that there were many factors. You want to make these things so simple to explain away. Your perception of this harassment/abuse is based on the woman you spoke to. Speak to another woman, and you'll get another perception. And another woman, another perception.
The woman I spoke to? I think you mean women. Multiple women. And them telling me all their friends experience the same thing. And the overwhelming number of reports on #metoo, and the overwhelming number of comments by women on any story.
Throwing out some vague truism such as "everyones experience is different" changes nothing. There are commonalities of experience. I share experiences with Irish women regarding Irish culture. And no, not every single Irish person would recognise some experience I share about being Irish, but if a significant number of Irish men and women said "oh yeah, I recognize that experience" then thats a common experience. And we know this happens. How many fluff viral articles are there like "10 things every Irish person growing up in the 80s will recognize".
Its the same with women. Clearly some women like being constantly come onto like your attention seeking dancer girlfriend. But there are a very large number of women sharing a common experience using #metoo. All I'm doing is recognizing this as a common experience among women who say it is pervasive.Not agreeing with you. You have no real conception of what women truly experience. Asking a woman will not help much beyond giving you an inkling... because everything is based on individual perception.
I have a shaking disorder called essential tremor. The symptoms are similar amongst those who have it, but never exactly the same. The experience of essential tremor, the experience of living with it, and the way we come to terms with it is vastly different between those that suffer it. I've been to medical conferences about this "disorder" and heard those opinions from sufferers. There are similarities, and that can give a degree of insight, but little more.
Again, just because individual experiences can very does not mean theres no recognizable commonalities. When you go to an event where people talk about their experiences of this condition, can you recognize exactly zero commonalities? Have you never listened to someone talking about their condition adn thought, "yes this resonates with me". Why would you even go listen if in fact you have absolutely nothing to do with this person because of your unique experience.
Women do have a shared experience of sexual harrassment. Sure some women will be flattered by the odd approach. Less will be flattered by daily and persisitent approaches. I'd say almost none like being followed at night on a dark street, but oh am I being too presumptive there? Every woman is unique so maybe there are women who like to be followed and stalked. How could I possibly think that not liking being stalked is a common experience.....Social anxiety is similiar in that people can experience parts of the same feelings, but the way they interpret those feelings is different.
again there are massive commonalities. If there werent you would never have people saying "thank you for sharing, I recognize so much of myself in what you said and it made me feel less alone". Because i see those kind of responses all the time. Because beyond the silly truism that everyone is unique, we share common views and experiences.Nope. We are aware that it's common. We just don't tend to think about it much. It's been accepted as a fact of life. Just like most men would see my shakes and know instinctively that I've been bullied for it. they're not going to bother talking to me about it, because there's no real way to stop such behavior... why? Because it's still socially acceptable to pick on those that are different.
yet many men think that metoo is an exaggeration. they are not aware that it happens so much. Just because you MIGHT, does not mean every or most men do.
Awareness does not mean that people have to acknowledge or intervene.
I never said they had to. I said that men were not aware that it is common, as evidenced by the number of men on this thread who argue that its not that common, by the poster who said he thought it wasnt common until he asked his daughter.You're questioning one eyed jack's intelligence? Oh lord. That poster is smart, and articulate. I'll leave it to him to cut you off at the knees.
Ahh more facts. Lovely. I posted your two quotes sides by side to show your issue with their intelligence and still you're defending it. They were your words.
yes assuming that a woman who posts an experience of harrassment with the hashtag #metoo is claimng to speak for all women is really quite dumb.
I said that I was not calling men who do not realise how commmon harrassment is unintelligent. I then said men who think that a woman who posts with #metoo is claiming to speak for all women is untillegent. Two completely different things. Bizarre that you cant see that.
Its like if someone said people with brown eyes are intelligent and people with blue eyes arent, and you claimed that was a contradiction. HINT: THEYRE TALKING ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS.Strange. You did suggest otherwise earlier.
Nope. I've never seen a #metoo post with a name. I know celebs have been named in the media but no idea if thats to do with #metoo at all. Even if it was, which I've no knowledge of (in case you try and claim I'm saying celebs havebeben named on #metoo), I have zero knowledge of any non-celeb being named. Have you?I'm done repeating myself. I've said this at least five times now based on your objections and enough is enough.
you really havent set a threshold for when youd consider it time to deal with lower level harrassment. Because its nonsense.
The law already has a definite female bias. Education? From pre-school, primary school, and secondary school, women outnumber men as teachers. And at university level quotas are set to remove any 'unfair' ratios of men vs women. And perhaps think abiut parenting, the number of stay at home mothers far outnumbers men.
So because women tend to be primary caregivers to children, education could not deal with sexual harrassment. What a leap in logic. What does having an equal number of male and female lecturers (which is demonstrably not true in my department) got to do with educating about sexual harrassment?Metoo isn't even close to an answer. This thread shows the lack of faith female posters have in the law, even to the point they would prefer complaining on the internet than to report offenses.
If change is to come, it must come through official channels through the use of proper research and effective measures to reduce this kind of behavior. The minority of men out there that behave this way only respect strength, and they should be punished as criminals. Throw the book at them, make examples of them, and send a clear message that the behavior of real harassment/abuse is not acceptable.
#metoo is an effective measure to let men know that their behaviour is making women uncomfortable and part of a larger problem. Sure some men will do whatever they can to normalize their own behaviour, including ignoring #metoo. Others will see themselves in these stories and modify their behaviour.
Take a look at how marriage equality was achieved. Its universally agreed that the "research" both sides threw around was absolutely useless in convincing people to vote either way, and the reason the YES side won was through a grassroots campaign. Going door to door and sharing what marriage equality meant to them.
Your confidence that research vs grassroots is the way to go is completely misguided0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Asked the wife about this stuff
She thinks it's a load of auld ****e
There's a reason she's the wife 😎
What does your wife look like? If shes middle aged and goes round in a tracksuit with a lesbian haircut her experience is probably different than a fit young wan in a belly top with big boobs and a tight yoga pants.0 -
Jaysus how many more pages of going in circles remains in this thread.0
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The woman I spoke to? I think you mean women. Multiple women. And them telling me all their friends experience the same thing. And the overwhelming number of reports on #metoo, and the overwhelming number of comments by women on any story.
Throwing out some vague truism such as "everyones experience is different" changes nothing. There are commonalities of experience. I share experiences with Irish women regarding Irish culture. And no, not every single Irish person would recognise some experience I share about being Irish, but if a significant number of Irish men and women said "oh yeah, I recognize that experience" then thats a common experience. And we know this happens. How many fluff viral articles are there like "10 things every Irish person growing up in the 80s will recognize".
Its the same with women. Clearly some women like being constantly come onto like your attention seeking dancer girlfriend. But there are a very large number of women sharing a common experience using #metoo. All I'm doing is recognizing this as a common experience among women who say it is pervasive.
Again, just because individual experiences can very does not mean theres no recognizable commonalities. When you go to an event where people talk about their experiences of this condition, can you recognize exactly zero commonalities? Have you never listened to someone talking about their condition adn thought, "yes this resonates with me". Why would you even go listen if in fact you have absolutely nothing to do with this person because of your unique experience.
Women do have a shared experience of sexual harrassment. Sure some women will be flattered by the odd approach. Less will be flattered by daily and persisitent approaches. I'd say almost none like being followed at night on a dark street, but oh am I being too presumptive there? Every woman is unique so maybe there are women who like to be followed and stalked. How could I possibly think that not liking being stalked is a common experience.....
again there are massive commonalities. If there werent you would never have people saying "thank you for sharing, I recognize so much of myself in what you said and it made me feel less alone". Because i see those kind of responses all the time. Because beyond the silly truism that everyone is unique, we share common views and experiences.
yet many men think that metoo is an exaggeration. they are not aware that it happens so much. Just because you MIGHT, does not mean every or most men do.
I never said they had to. I said that men were not aware that it is common, as evidenced by the number of men on this thread who argue that its not that common, by the poster who said he thought it wasnt common until he asked his daughter.
yes assuming that a woman who posts an experience of harrassment with the hashtag #metoo is claimng to speak for all women is really quite dumb.
I said that I was not calling men who do not realise how commmon harrassment is unintelligent. I then said men who think that a woman who posts with #metoo is claiming to speak for all women is untillegent. Two completely different things. Bizarre that you cant see that.
Its like if someone said people with brown eyes are intelligent and people with blue eyes arent, and you claimed that was a contradiction. HINT: THEYRE TALKING ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS.
Nope. I've never seen a #metoo post with a name. I know celebs have been named in the media but no idea if thats to do with #metoo at all. Even if it was, which I've no knowledge of (in case you try and claim I'm saying celebs havebeben named on #metoo), I have zero knowledge of any non-celeb being named. Have you?
you really havent set a threshold for when youd consider it time to deal with lower level harrassment. Because its nonsense.
So because women tend to be primary caregivers to children, education could not deal with sexual harrassment. What a leap in logic. What does having an equal number of male and female lecturers (which is demonstrably not true in my department) got to do with educating about sexual harrassment?
#metoo is an effective measure to let men know that their behaviour is making women uncomfortable and part of a larger problem. Sure some men will do whatever they can to normalize their own behaviour, including ignoring #metoo. Others will see themselves in these stories and modify their behaviour.
Take a look at how marriage equality was achieved. Its universally agreed that the "research" both sides threw around was absolutely useless in convincing people to vote either way, and the reason the YES side won was through a grassroots campaign. Going door to door and sharing what marriage equality meant to them.
Your confidence that research vs grassroots is the way to go is completely misguided
I think the type of men that do this don't give 2 ****s about twitter campaigns. Also don't agree on your gay marriage analysis. People voted for it because they felt it was the decent thing to do.0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »I started to write a long set of responses, got halfway and realized I'd already covered most of it before. Nah.
I'm going to end this now because it's going nowhere fast. It's repetitive beyond belief.
I've said my piece.
Yeah it was getting repetitive.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Your perception of this harassment/abuse is based on the woman you spoke to. Speak to another woman, and you'll get another perception. And another woman, another perception.
[...]
Nope. We are aware that it's common. We just don't tend to think about it much. It's been accepted as a fact of life.
Surely if the first is true, you can't really speak for all men?0 -
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Yet my response was to a guy who only understood how much it happened once he asked his own daughter. The fact is that people are genuinely unaware of how much it goes on. Just because you THINK you are very aware of it (and maybe YOU are.... Maybe) doesn't mean everyone else is. And it's pretty clear they're not.
You're taking what you want from the post you replied to actually. The knowledge that it happened to his own daughter didn't actually give prof any further insight into how prevalent the issue of intimidation and harassment is at all, and certainly gave him no greater understanding of how much it happens. I said that men are generally aware of the issue of intimidation and harassment, and they are, quite aware of just how prevalent the issue is in many of it's various different contexts and definitions, long before there was ever any metoo phenomenon. Prof hearing that it happened to his own daughter and his opinion after the fact was merely an example of an extrapolation based upon confirmation bias.
It's no different than viewing a concentration of women on social media who are posting about their experiences of intimidation and harassment at the hands of men, and extrapolating on that basis that it must be more common than it really is, as though that small number of women are actually representative of the experiences of all women. The data is incredibly unreliable for starters because there is simply no way to objectively quantify and verify the veracity of their accounts or claims for starters. "Listen and believe" just is neither a statistical nor scientific methodology. It goes against the very idea of objective observation and questioning phenomena to objectively determine anything of any value.
This is exactly why I said twitter - digital equivalent of syphilis. It wouldn't surprise me however if twitter social media does actually become an accepted method of peer-reviewed research with the direction in which the social sciences are heading.Whether it's to do with intelligence or just lack of awareness. And whether people can be blamed for these things or it can be out down to natural human nature is all debatable. That doesn't change that there are huge number of people who do not understand others experiences. Assuming you're a white straight male you will never understand the experiences of black people, gay people, women etc.
I went on for a bit here, but I'll do you the courtesy of a TL:DR - Identity politics is a crock of shít.
Leave some Kool-Aid for someone else would you, don't have to drink it all in the one go. I will give you props however for demonstrating precisely the problem with using social media for any kind of advocacy of an issue. There really isn't much of a debate to be had as to whether we can hold people responsible for things they aren't responsible for. That goes against the most fundamental concepts of law in any society. That completely contradicts your belief that you can hold people accountable for anything they aren't responsible for, so assuming I am a straight white male (if I'm being completely honest with you, I'm a straight white Christian male with the means to retire in the morning and still have the ability to fund my grandchildren's education should my also straight white Christian male child choose to have children!), none of that actually protects nor precludes me from critically evaluating and understanding the experiences of other people who have experienced intimidation and harassment, which is actually what the metoo phenomenon was supposed to be about when it was albeit ill-conceived, before it was hijacked by people with an axe to grind influenced by their own identity politics.
That's why when token black guy Terry Crews (aka Arnold Shwarzennergo in "White Chicks") gave his account of having been sexually assaulted by a top executive in Hollywood, it didn't gain a whole lot of traction in a swarm of the equivalent of missing white woman syndrome who were giving their accounts of intimidation and harassment. Now, having said that, and with regard to your assertion that I would nor could never understand the experiences of black people, gay people, women, etc, yes, myself and Bojangles had that conversation earlier on in the thread where I freely admitted I would never and could never know what goes on in the mind of another person, because as I said - how each person processes their experiences is dependent upon both a number of internal and external factors. At least I'm not contradicting myself -again there are massive commonalities. If there werent you would never have people saying "thank you for sharing, I recognize so much of myself in what you said and it made me feel less alone". Because i see those kind of responses all the time. Because beyond the silly truism that everyone is unique, we share common views and experiences.
See my earlier comments in this thread regarding my observation of cognitive dissonance in people who view people on the basis of their various identities and regard only the identities which suit their purpose, and present identities which do not suit their purpose as being in conflict with each other, your efforts are a perfect demonstration of the phenomenon -One eyed Jack wrote: »None of these [concepts] are actually mutually exclusive. They are ideas that complement each other, rather than conflict with each other. It's presenting them in such a way as though they actually do conflict with each other is what causes people to experience cognitive dissonance.
And again, because intimidation and harassment which is what the metoo campaign was actually supposed to be about, are not exclusive to any particular demographic - using your own rationale, there is then nothing which precludes nor prevents me from understanding another persons experiences of intimidation and harassment, regardless of any identity traits which either we do or do not share. We can share commonalities in terms of our experience of intimidation and harassment can we not?
Or we could also easily have in common with each other the fact that none of us are particularly fond of pissing contests and misery porn the likes of which would make Joe Duffy blush, and we rather keep those experiences to ourselves, and instead share the experience of some fine whiskey and sandungueo. Speaking of sandungueo actually and things Peurto Rican, I'm reminded of one of the biggest hits of the Summer, the biggest hit on YouTube actually with over four billion views and counting - Despacito, and the reaction of a small band of people hoping to gain some attention for themselves off the back of it's success -In August 2017, the Basque Institute of Women (Emakunde) did not include "Despacito" on "a 'feminist' playlist of about 200 songs that should be played in festivals [in Basque Country]." A spokesperson said, "It's not about listening to just these songs and no others. It's about making sure that music by women is represented as well."
Now one might be given to thinking "Ok, well that's fair enough", unless they were already aware of the fact that Despacito was actually written by a woman -Fonsi stated that he made "Despacito" a danceable song because "Latinos are known for being happy people" and that he feels the need of happy music. He added that the "urban feel" in the song's rhythm is the type that "[us Latinos] breathe in and out" and that it is "a synonym of party." According to him, "Despacito" is a very melodic song that can adapt well to many other music genres. In an interview with Billboard magazine in April 2017, Erika Ender stated that the track "made a special connection" and that the collaboration with Daddy Yankee was "a great idea." She also said that because of the sensual nature of the song, they "needed to be responsible with a good lyric" and that her approach to writing for Fonsi was "to take care of how to say things with a good taste."
It appears that what is and isn't in good taste is irrelevant when you're just not ticking the identity politics boxes. Reminds me somewhat of the recent... recent? Fcuk it, Taylor Swift can't catch a break either from criticism from feminists it seems, if they're not criticising her single "Bad Blood" for "period-shaming" (can't find a link to it now, they must have realised they were really jumping the shark week with that one!), she's being criticised for promoting domestic violence with songs like "Blank Space" and her most recent cracking ditty, "Look what you made me do", whereas Bey, or Beyoncé even, well she can sing all she wants about her sexual shenanigans with songs like "Blow" and "Rocket" (use your imagination, I'm not linking those! :pac:), and she receives critical acclaim for it!
Curious business identity politics really, it's as though the level of oppression and victimhood isn't predicated on raising sisters voices at all, but rather raising only certain sisters voices. To be perfectly honest if I never hear Lena Dunham again after she handwaved away her own sexual assault of her sister (and her sister not to be outdone in her dedication to the over-arching goals of protecting the Sisterhood of the Most Holy Idealogues, claimed she did not regard her experience as sexual abuse), it will be too soon. Should we be expected to listen and believe that too, or is it about the same level of awkward AF as Ashley Judd telling us telling us that the election of President Trump was worse for her than being raped as a child? I don't suppose it was nearly as awkward as Lena's later pronouncement that she wishes she'd had an abortion while they sought to exclude women from the women's march for being pro-life?You can claim I'm underestimating peoples intelligence all you like. I am not saying these people are unintelligent. I am saying people tend not to understand the experiences of people who are different to them.
You're underestimating peoples intelligence if you think they haven't spotted your blatant cognitive dissonance. Isn't the determinant of differences between two people based upon the characteristics of a shared identity with another person? That's the basis of your claim that women have a shared experience which men cannot understand. Yet I've already demonstrated that your contention doesn't hold up when it's actually critically examined - it's actually far more nuanced than that. For example my neighbour and I, we don't look anything like each other for starters, she being a black Muslim woman and me being a white Roman Catholic male, and yet we share many experiences in common, like the fact that we're both passionate about education, she sends me inspirational quotes on WhatsApp every morning, gets my day off to a great start, and then there are our differences - I'm half-blind and she's practically deaf, so we're a bit like Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder in that movie "See no evil, hear no evil" :pac: She's great fun though, you'd like her... or maybe not, given that in spite of her experiences, she wouldn't fit your particular narrative that you're attempting to portray when you present a one-dimensional, single-issue experience, and ignore the fact that people are actually so, so much more complex than just the identities and experiences you choose to identify with. Thar's completely about you, all about you, and nothing about acknowledging the experiences of others.You assume you get it. And if you have anxiety maybe you do get it. But I've heard countless people tell other people with social anxiety to "just go to the party, you'll enjoy it when you get there". There are millions of people who JUST DONT GET IT.
How come it is that you expect others should just listen and believe, while you don't appear to be able to hold yourself to the same standard, and then it turns into a pissing contest of who's experiences are valid, and who's experiences are discounted? I have a feeling you'd do anything to win that particular victimhood trophy, and indeed so too would millions of people. Hell, Rachel Dolezal went as far as trying to pass herself off as a black woman in her quest to identify with those whom she saw as oppressed. If nothing else at least... well, no, I was going to say you've got to admire her dedication to her cause, but no, there was nothing admirable about her behaviour. Perhaps if there were a metoo phenomenon for transracial peeps, millions of people would identify with Rachel and make sure she knows she's not alone.
Unlikely, but certainly plausible! :pac:I don't know where i put the burden on the majority of men. All I said was it's easy to assume this stuff doesn't happen much if you don't ask women.
That's putting the burden of responsibility on men to ask women have they ever experienced intimidation or harassment. Why would they need to? Your point is about as useful as me saying that it's easy to assume this stuff doesn't happen much if you don't ask men, as though the burden should now shift back to you to ask men have they ever experienced intimidation or harassment. You are interested in finding out, right? Because you care that much about the issue of people who have experienced intimidation and harassment that you're determined to help everyone understand that it isn't actually an issue that can be drawn along any particular identity lines at all, right?
As it happens, I already addressed that very point earlier in this thread as to why I would never encourage anyone to put someone on the spot like that -One eyed Jack wrote: »Exactly my point - nobody asked you about it, because it's generally not something anyone would ask. It's weird and inappropriate, and it's very likely to make someone feel incredibly uncomfortable to be asked anything even remotely like that, even in the context of a discussion about women's experiences throughout their lifetimes of being intimidated, harassed, verbally and sexually assaulted and abused by men. In order for anyone to know about it though, you had to tell them, you didn't just assume they should ask you, so why you think I should ask women I know have they ever experienced this behaviour from men is something I simply cannot get my head around. I don't see what useful purpose it could ever serve other than to make them feel incredibly uncomfortable. I'm ok with being there for them to listen to them if and when they ever feel ready to tell me. They own that decision and it is entirely up to them and within their control when and whom they choose to allow themselves to give that information about themselves to, because once it's out there, they have no control over that information about themselves any more.Well you made most of this stuff up. Metoo is mostly about women sharing experiences. Not claiming they represent all women. It's so ridiculous. A woman reads stories on me too. Decides to post her own. Then all these angry men start saying "not all men, and you don't represent all women". Talk about lacking in intelligence. The average metoo poster is not claiming to represent all women and is not blaming all men. I've probably been the most aggressive person on this thread in terms of the number of men I think have harassed.
You really don't appear to have taken any time and effort to read the thread, which doesn't surprise me really if I'm being honest. Metoo is only about certain women sharing certain experiences. Whether that was it's original intent or not, that's what it's become, yet another useless echo chamber devoid of any corroborating evidence or objectivity. Everyone is expected to just listen and believe and anyone who either doesn't promote the narrative, doesn't fit the mould, isn't looking for validation, is excluded from being a part of it. That totes doesn't sound like just another social issue being co-opted by a minority in order to control the moral and social behaviours and attitudes of those who do not conform to their ideology... where have we seen that before I wonder? :rolleyes:
To be perfectly honest I think I'll follow klaz's lead and fcuk off because at this point I feel I too have repeated myself often enough in this thread and if you aren't prepared to offer anything of any value beyond a demonstration of why the metoo phenomenon is in reality a miserable failure by any measure of it's intent.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »You're taking what you want from the post you replied to actually. The knowledge that it happened to his own daughter didn't actually give prof any further insight into how prevalent the issue of intimidation and harassment is at all, and certainly gave him no greater understanding of how much it happens. I said that men are generally aware of the issue of intimidation and harassment, and they are, quite aware of just how prevalent the issue is in many of it's various different contexts and definitions, long before there was ever any metoo phenomenon. Prof hearing that it happened to his own daughter and his opinion after the fact was merely an example of an extrapolation based upon confirmation bias.
In general, men are not aware of the levels of harrassment that women are subjected to. There are multiple posts on this thread disbelieving that harrassment levels are this high and multiple men saying they suspect the women of lying for attention.
It's no different than viewing a concentration of women on social media who are posting about their experiences of intimidation and harassment at the hands of men, and extrapolating on that basis that it must be more common than it really is, as though that small number of women are actually representative of the experiences of all women. The data is incredibly unreliable for starters because there is simply no way to objectively quantify and verify the veracity of their accounts or claims for starters. "Listen and believe" just is neither a statistical nor scientific methodology. It goes against the very idea of objective observation and questioning phenomena to objectively determine anything of any value.
That's fine of its just on social media. But if you ask every woman you know if they've been harassed and they all have been then it's not a self confirming sample.Leave some Kool-Aid for someone else would you, don't have to drink it all in the one go. I will give you props however for demonstrating precisely the problem with using social media for any kind of advocacy of an issue. There really isn't much of a debate to be had as to whether we can hold people responsible for things they aren't responsible for. That goes against the most fundamental concepts of law in any society. That completely contradicts your belief that you can hold people accountable for anything they aren't responsible for, so assuming I am a straight white male (if I'm being completely honest with you, I'm a straight white Christian male with the means to retire in the morning and still have the ability to fund my grandchildren's education should my also straight white Christian male child choose to have children!), none of that actually protects nor precludes me from critically evaluating and understanding the experiences of other people who have experienced intimidation and harassment, which is actually what the metoo phenomenon was supposed to be about when it was albeit ill-conceived, before it was hijacked by people with an axe to grind influenced by their own identity politics.
Im not sure what your stuff about holding people responsible is about. I haven't talked about responsibility.
"Critically evaluating" something doesn't mean you understand peoples experiences or that your evaluation is in any way accurate. I don't find your critiquing skills all that great to be honest. The vast majority of metoo posts I've seen are simple sharing of particular or multiple experiences. You have somehow concluded from this that the posters are "claiming to represent all women", when the vast majority make no reference to representing anyone, explicit or implicit. You're clearly biased as your "identity politics is...." Rant shows.
That's why when token black guy Terry Crews (aka Arnold Shwarzennergo in "White Chicks") gave his account of having been sexually assaulted by a top executive in Hollywood, it didn't gain a whole lot of traction in a swarm of the equivalent of missing white woman syndrome who were giving their accounts of intimidation and harassment. Now, having said that, and with regard to your assertion that I would nor could never understand the experiences of black people, gay people, women, etc, yes, myself and Bojangles had that conversation earlier on in the thread where I freely admitted I would never and could never know what goes on in the mind of another person, because as I said - how each person processes their experiences is dependent upon both a number of internal and external factors. At least I'm not contradicting myself -
That Terry crews story got a LOT of coverage. I guess you're only seeing what you want to see.
You're doing the same thing as klaz and using the trivial truism that everyone's experience is different to ignore that some groups have common experiences not shared by other groups, beyond the level of individual experience.See my earlier comments in this thread regarding my observation of cognitive dissonance in people who view people on the basis of their various identities and regard only the identities which suit their purpose, and present identities which do not suit their purpose as being in conflict with each other, your efforts are a perfect demonstration of the phenomenon -
And again, because intimidation and harassment which is what the metoo campaign was actually supposed to be about, are not exclusive to any particular demographic - using your own rationale, there is then nothing which precludes nor prevents me from understanding another persons experiences of intimidation and harassment, regardless of any identity traits which either we do or do not share. We can share commonalities in terms of our experience of intimidation and harassment can we not?
I haven't "displayed cognitive dissonance" as you have defined it. I'm not sure you even know what it means. You use pseudo intellectual terms to obfuscate the point. I am not presenting identites that "don't suit me" as conflicting. Why don't you show how I've done this rather than say "oh am I'm observing cognitive dissonance here".
Yes we can share experiences of harrassment. Mem have posted in this thread about being physically intimidated by "skanger". Women also experience this. However men do not experience the level.of sexual harrassment that women do. Unless they listen to the experiences of women they won't understand how pervasive it is. There is no contradiction here. The issues of shared and distinct experiences align perfectly with what I've been saying.
Had to delete all that crazy pop culture stuff about Despacio, Taylor Swift and Lena Dunham. I have ZERO idea what you're on about. It had nothing to do with metoo.
You have not demonstrated that my contention doesn't hold up under critical evaluation. You just keep spouting the same nonsense about cognitive dissonance.You're underestimating peoples intelligence if you think they haven't spotted your blatant cognitive dissonance. Isn't the determinant of differences between two people based upon the characteristics of a shared identity with another person? That's the basis of your claim that women have a shared experience which men cannot understand. Yet I've already demonstrated that your contention doesn't hold up when it's actually critically examined - it's actually far more nuanced than that. For example my neighbour and I, we don't look anything like each other for starters, she being a black Muslim woman and me being a white Roman Catholic male, and yet we share many experiences in common, like the fact that we're both passionate about education, she sends me inspirational quotes on WhatsApp every morning, gets my day off to a great start, and then there are our differences - I'm half-blind and she's practically deaf, so we're a bit like Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder in that movie "See no evil, hear no evil" :pac: She's great fun though, you'd like her... or maybe not, given that in spite of her experiences, she wouldn't fit your particular narrative that you're attempting to portray when you present a one-dimensional, single-issue experience, and ignore the fact that people are actually so, so much more complex than just the identities and experiences you choose to identify with. Thar's completely about you, all about you, and nothing about acknowledging the experiences of others.
I've no doubt you and your neighbour share experiences. And she has experienced that she shares with other black people, and other Muslims that you don't share.
For example this paper: [Mental health impacts of racial discrimination in Victorian Aboriginal communities] found that 97% of over 700 Aboriginal people in Australia had experienced racism in the previous year. These people have a shared experience that white people don't have. Even if some Aboriginal person and some white person both like gene wilder movies.How come it is that you expect others should just listen and believe, while you don't appear to be able to hold yourself to the same standard, and then it turns into a pissing contest of who's experiences are valid, and who's experiences are discounted? I have a feeling you'd do anything to win that particular victimhood trophy, and indeed so too would millions of people. Hell, Rachel Dolezal went as far as trying to pass herself off as a black woman in her quest to identify with those whom she saw as oppressed. If nothing else at least... well, no, I was going to say you've got to admire her dedication to her cause, but no, there was nothing admirable about her behaviour. Perhaps if there were a metoo phenomenon for transracial peeps, millions of people would identify with Rachel and make sure she knows she's not alone.
Because I'm not discounting peoples experiences of what happened to them. I'm discounting the people who are saying because they haven't seen it happen often but are aware it happens somewhat then they know exactly what's going on. Basically I'm discounting you and klaz experience of what happens to women. Because you're not women. If you want to talk about your experiences as men and a huge number of men share similar experiences then by all means I'll be happy to listen.
No idea what you're on about in relation To rachel DThat's putting the burden of responsibility on men to ask women have they ever experienced intimidation or harassment. Why would they need to? Your point is about as useful as me saying that it's easy to assume this stuff doesn't happen much if you don't ask men, as though the burden should now shift back to you to ask men have they ever experienced intimidation or harassment. You are interested in finding out, right? Because you care that much about the issue of people who have experienced intimidation and harassment that you're determined to help everyone understand that it isn't actually an issue that can be drawn along any particular identity lines at all, right?
I didn't say Men had to ask women. I said they won't understand unless they do. There is no issue of burden hereod have no issue asking men for their experiences of harrassment if that was what was at issue.
You really don't appear to have taken any time and effort to read the thread, which doesn't surprise me really if I'm being honest. Metoo is only about certain women sharing certain experiences. Whether that was it's original intent or not, that's what it's become, yet another useless echo chamber devoid of any corroborating evidence or objectivity. Everyone is expected to just listen and believe and anyone who either doesn't promote the narrative, doesn't fit the mould, isn't looking for validation, is excluded from being a part of it. That totes doesn't sound like just another social issue being co-opted by a minority in order to control the moral and social behaviours and attitudes of those who do not conform to their ideology... where have we seen that before I wonder? :rolleyes:
The experiences of metoo align with the experiences of every woman I've talked to about this. It's not being coopted by a minority no matter how much you'd like to believe that.
To be perfectly honest I think I'll follow klaz's lead and fcuk off because at this point I feel I too have repeated myself often enough in this thread and if you aren't prepared to offer anything of any value beyond a demonstration of why the metoo phenomenon is in reality a miserable failure by any measure of it's intent.
Nobody's making you reply ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ you're responsible for your own decision to post.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Did I say I was? I'm definitely not.Deleted User wrote: »
Nope. We are aware that it's common. We just don't tend to think about it much. It's been accepted as a fact of life.
Is this you talking about yourself in the first person plural, then?0 -
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#MeToo is probably going to be a bad thing as we live in this social media age.
Everything gets twisted and distorted from it's original intention. Look at the ice bucket challenge. The idea was you donate then do the ice bucket and the other people donate and do the same. Along the line that got blurred and people were just doing it without donating.0 -
Couple y'all type waaaay too much0
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A Little Pony wrote: »Another pointless social media nonsense which will be forgotten about in a few days time. Pretty much like #prayfor rubbish.
This got 93 likes?0
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