#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Press_Start

the_syco wrote: »

Aside from confirming that every single woman has gotten sexually abused, what does it actually do? I doubt the abusers will care, and this won't stop them. It will allow them no to feel alone, but in the end, I don't think it'll do much.

Allow them to stand in solidarity, maybe give more people knowledge about what harrssment is, and show what women go through. It's in reaction to the Weinstein thing I believe.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Being asked out is grand, but sometimes the context makes it inappropriate. Someone you've just met asks for your number in the queue for the bus: OK, as long as they're decent about it. Someone you've just met asks for your number, when you've just given them your paperwork to be tax assessed: not OK, even though they're just asking.

I find Larson's thing there a bit precious, but I can see what she's driving at, and it's something that seems to be a far, far, bigger problem in the states. The problem that if you adhere to a bare minimum standard of politeness, it'll be interpreted as sexual interest.

Any negative reaction is always hilariously overreacted to on these threads as well. "Crime of the century, is it", "oh I'm cis man scum" etc. People are talking about a vast range of their experiences, experiences which run from annoying, to infuriating, to worrying, to life threatening. Not claiming that winking is the same as buggery. Ye're seeing what ye want to see, anything that confirms the narrative that the feminists are out to get ye, and that's far, far more interesting than listening to what women (and men, scuse me, White Knights) actually say.

If there was a social media campaign that had people posting metoo if they owned a dog, by the logic of this debate the main upshot of this would be that it's an anti cat campaign and also that anyone who owns a terrier shouldn't join in because some people own Great Danes.

BBBDigital017

Load of nonsense, if they need to talk do so but soical medias not the place

TheShow

I was wearing a low cut top that barely covered my nipples and this guy looked at my chest #metoo

What a monster

kylith

BBBDigital017 wrote: »

Load of nonsense, if they need to talk do so but soical medias not the place

Where is the place then?

BlaasForRafa

TheShow wrote: »

I was wearing a low cut top that barely covered my nipples and this guy looked at my chest #metoo

What a monster

Just reminds me, one of the women I work with often wears low cut tops and has a habit of coming to my desk to show me something she's working on, all the while showing off her cleavage and inside I'm thinking "just put them away will you!"

kylith wrote: »

Where is the place then?

Police station.

TheShow

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

Being asked out is grand, but sometimes the context makes it inappropriate. Someone you've just met asks for your number in the queue for the bus: OK, as long as they're decent about it. Someone you've just met asks for your number, when you've just given them your paperwork to be tax assessed: not OK, even though they're just asking.

I fail to see why the second scenario is not ok. So you can ask a person out, as long as it’s on their terms?
I can understand that it would be inappropriate if there is a “relationship” where a duty of care is involved. But if you see somebody who you find attractive for whatever reason, surely you should be able to ask that person on a date without fear of repercussion, and that said person can accept or reject the offer at their own discretion.
Where is the harm in that?

bucketybuck

sunshine and showers wrote: »

But yes, please do make it all about you. :rolleyes:

Said without irony in a thread about "#metoo"...

Burial.

kylith wrote: »

Broadcasting it over facebook lets other women who have been assaulted know that they are not alone, that there are other people out there who know what they are going through and how they feel. And it lets everyone know that this is not a rare occurrence.

This happens to thousands of women every day. Should they stay quiet, like they're ashamed? Why is them saying that they've been assaulted such an issue for you?

Anyone with a brain cell realises crime happens everywhere, every day. If legitimate experiences were the only ones being shared I'd be all for it but unfortunately that is not the case. Mckayla Maroney's post was brilliant as everyone had suspicions that women's gymnastics was rampant with odd dealings and she's one of the most famous gymnasts ever and her advice was spot on. But experiences like that are a rarity given the absolute **** storm of drivel being posted since. It's turned into like whoring and trying to grab the attention from others. All it is doing in effect is diluting the real issue and the real cases. I find it hard to believe all these accounts given that stories of false rape claims are becoming more and more common as well. The fact is feminism is thriving hard to make men the complete enemy and that women can never be faulted and anything they say is gospel truth. And that's not fair. Like ya wan Louise McSharry wrote about the other day implying most men are responsible for sexual harassment in one way or another.

silent_spark

TheShow wrote: »

I fail to see why the second scenario is not ok. So you can ask a person out, as long as it’s on their terms?
I can understand that it would be inappropriate if there is a “relationship” where a duty of care is involved. But if you see somebody who you find attractive for whatever reason, surely you should be able to ask that person on a date without fear of repercussion, and that said person can accept or reject the offer at their own discretion.
Where is the harm in that?

Do you really not understand why it would be inappropriate for a tax assessor to ask the person they’re assessing out?

pjohnson

silent_spark wrote: »

Do you really not understand why it would be inappropriate for a tax assessor to ask the person they’re assessing out?

Is it because tax assessors are evil?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

TheShow wrote: »

I fail to see why the second scenario is not ok. So you can ask a person out, as long as it’s on their terms?
I can understand that it would be inappropriate if there is a “relationship” where a duty of care is involved. But if you see somebody who you find attractive for whatever reason, surely you should be able to ask that person on a date without fear of repercussion, and that said person can accept or reject the offer at their own discretion.
Where is the harm in that?

You're in a professional context, and a position of power. You can wait until you're not. You really don't see how making an advance in that scenario is putting someone in an awkward position? Of course it's not and shouldn't be illegal to put someone in an awkward position

Or say you've just interviewed for a job, it goes pretty well, and one of the interviewers asks you out? There wouldn't be anything going through your head about the implications of saying no, the fear of repercussion as you put it, or what kind of work environment you'd be entering if you got the job?

xtal191

TheShow

silent_spark wrote: »

Do you really not understand why it would be inappropriate for a tax assessor to ask the person they’re assessing out?

See comment re duty of care. However any other scenario has to be acceptable as long as it’s respectfully done. And the usual common sense should be applied.

Press_Start

I think there is certainly a fine line between harrassment and showing interest. But also there's a fine line between beng flattered and being harrassed.

Exhibit A: I go up to a yung wan in town, I think she looks deadly, I ask her for her number. I'm not a bad looking dude, and she says yeah sure. Happy days. No Harrassment. Just lucky.

Exhibit B: I do the same. I ask her for her number. She's taken aback, and is insulted.
Not so good. Innapropriate and forward

Exhibit C: I'm in town at a nightclub, and do the same. We exchange and it's all good. It's normal behaviour for the environment

Exhibit I'm behind her in line at the petrol station. she sees me looking at her. I follow her to her car and ask her for her number as she gets in. She's trapped, and been followed. Not so good either. Not appropriate, polite, or friendly, can even be intimidating.

It's just a sense of decorum that needs to be gauged. Gone are the days when you could approach a woman and tell her you liked her and she'd be delighted and you'd be together for life. Gone also are the days of arranging weddings where you didnt even know the person.


Since women have become more independant and the initial rise of second wave feminism, they are different creatures altogether, as are men, and as are practiced social norms.

For some women to claim they were sexually harrassed when they were asked for a phone number is not fair to men, or actual harrassment victims. There is nothing sexual about it, just innapropriate behaviour. Like asking a man on the train how large his bank account is. It's not the time or the place, and there's been no groundwork led.
Likewise for men to dismiss actual claims as being her fault. Yes she's wearing a low cut top. Yes she's wearing a mini skirt. Yes you can see her cleavage. You do not need to pass comment on it. Just enjoy that she looks good, and stop reading into it. I like the look of myself in a suit, I don't expect women to come up and pince my arse or comment on my btrouser bulge.

TL;DR People need to learn the difference between rude innapropriate comments, and bonafide sexual harrassement.

Gbear

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

If there was a social media campaign that had people posting metoo if they owned a dog, by the logic of this debate the main upshot of this would be that it's an anti cat campaign and also that anyone who owns a terrier shouldn't join in because some people own Great Danes.

You would absolutely see that.

You could be talking about handing out free money and there'd be people moaning and whataboutery being fired from every corner.

A Little Pony

Why do you think so many young people go to clubs men and women? To see who they hook up with and shag obviously. This idea that women don't like sex as much as men or sleeping around is a myth. Weinstein was just a weirdo and possibly a criminal (let's see what the courts say about that), it's never going to change the relationships between men and women and how they have interacted for hundreds of thousands of years to basically get 'it' away.

RayM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

That tweet predates the #MeToo hashtag. Is there a man here who hasn't, at some point, been smiled at by an attractive woman and (at least momentarily) thought: "She fancies me!"? Be honest...

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

No it won't. In no way will it. People jumping on a bandwagon will do the polar opposite of converting non believers.

Can you name anyone "jumping on the bandwagon"?
I see people stating that they have been abused

Gbear

Press_Start wrote: »

I think there is certainly a fine line between harrassment and showing interest. But also there's a fine line between beng flattered and being harrassed.

Exhibit A: I go up to a yung wan in town, I think she looks deadly, I ask her for her number. I'm not a bad looking dude, and she says yeah sure. Happy days. No Harrassment. Just lucky.

Exhibit B: I do the same. I ask her for her number. She's taken aback, and is insulted.
Not so good. Innapropriate and forward

Exhibit C: I'm in town at a nightclub, and do the same. We exchange and it's all good. It's normal behaviour for the environment

Exhibit I'm behind her in line at the petrol station. she sees me looking at her. I follow her to her car and ask her for her number as she gets in. She's trapped, and been followed. Not so good either. Not appropriate, polite, or friendly, can even be intimidating.

It's just a sense of decorum that needs to be gauged. Gone are the days when you could approach a woman and tell her you liked her and she'd be delighted and you'd be together for life. Gone also are the days of arranging weddings where you didnt even know the person.

People think this stuff comes naturally but it absolutely doesn't to a lot of people (such as myself, which is why I avoid trying to chat up women).

You see a pretty lady, you get a blast of hormones and immediately you're thinking of a string of bad ideas.
It takes a degree of experience and nous to take a step back and assess the situation and see it from the pretty lady's perspective.

I swear to ****, they should do some speed dating lessons as part of sex ed.
It's also an absolutely massive reason why gender-divided schools are a terrible idea.

pjohnson

Gbear wrote: »

People think this stuff comes naturally but it absolutely doesn't to a lot of people (such as myself, which is why I avoid trying to chat up women).

You see a pretty lady, you get a blast of hormones and immediately you're thinking of a string of bad ideas.

Not all males are literally dependent on the dick to make decisions. Some can remain sane.

TheShow

I think it really boils down to the context of the situation and how the asking out is done.
Be respectful, aware of the current situation and apply common sense.

In terms of attention, we are programmed to be attracted to each other, it’s nature, nothing we can do about it. However, yes decorum/dignity/common sense must be applied.

lawred2

Press_Start wrote: »

I think there is certainly a fine line between harrassment and showing interest. But also there's a fine line between beng flattered and being harrassed.

Exhibit A: I go up to a yung wan in town, I think she looks deadly, I ask her for her number. I'm not a bad looking dude, and she says yeah sure. Happy days. No Harrassment. Just lucky.

Exhibit B: I do the same. I ask her for her number. She's taken aback, and is insulted.
Not so good. Innapropriate and forward

Exhibit C: I'm in town at a nightclub, and do the same. We exchange and it's all good. It's normal behaviour for the environment

Exhibit I'm behind her in line at the petrol station. she sees me looking at her. I follow her to her car and ask her for her number as she gets in. She's trapped, and been followed. Not so good either. Not appropriate, polite, or friendly, can even be intimidating.

It's just a sense of decorum that needs to be gauged. Gone are the days when you could approach a woman and tell her you liked her and she'd be delighted and you'd be together for life. Gone also are the days of arranging weddings where you didnt even know the person.


Since women have become more independant and the initial rise of second wave feminism, they are different creatures altogether, as are men, and as are practiced social norms.

For some women to claim they were sexually harrassed when they were asked for a phone number is not fair to men, or actual harrassment victims. There is nothing sexual about it, just innapropriate behaviour. Like asking a man on the train how large his bank account is. It's not the time or the place, and there's been no groundwork led.
Likewise for men to dismiss actual claims as being her fault. Yes she's wearing a low cut top. Yes she's wearing a mini skirt. Yes you can see her cleavage. You do not need to pass comment on it. Just enjoy that she looks good, and stop reading into it. I like the look of myself in a suit, I don't expect women to come up and pince my arse or comment on my btrouser bulge.

TL;DR People need to learn the difference between rude innapropriate comments, and bonafide sexual harrassement.

I must have missed those days when it was acceptable to follow women back to their cars. Because apparently that's gone now.

I most check with my old man whether that's how he met my Mum.

hatrickpatrick

kylith wrote: »

I take the point that if you find someone attractive then you need to let them know that. However, there is the matter of how it's done: 'Hi, would you be interested in going out with me sometime?' is fine, especially if a rejection is followed by 'No problem, have a nice evening. Goodbye'. Unfortunately that is often not the case.

A simple 'no, thank you' can be met with outright hostility, demands to know why, insistence that he's a 'nice guy' who 'deserves a chance', aggression, and insults.

Similarly 'Nice tits love, give me your phone number' is not really a gentlemanly way to go about this.

Agree 100% with all of this.

That TSA tweet... would you consider just after having been frisked after having waited in line for bloody ages as an acceptable time for a staff member in the establishment to hit on you?

Sure. If I was interested, I'd take it further. If not, I'd politely decline. I was once hit on by a female bouncer, years back, at a now closed nightclub, after queuing and all that - had a girlfriend so declined and that was the end of it.

Had she either persisted in asking or had she then decided to kick me out of the queue or some other such dickish move, then I'd regard it as harassment and would have no question been contacting the establishment in question and raising a social media firestorm. But he didn't - she asked once and said "ah well, worth a shot" when I declined. That's the difference. Expressing an interest should not in and of itself be regarded as wrong, in my view - regardless of the context. Only if it goes further after being clearly rejected.

Especially if the person being hit on is a well known actress?

Makes not the slightest amount of difference in my view.

[qyote]Did he really think she would say yes? Especially since they had not had any interaction beforehand?[/quote]

Many, many relationships begin this way, a random encounter with no prior familiarity.

Is it acceptable for someone who presumably has the power to mark you for a search to ask for your phone number?

Why shouldn't it be? The status of the person asking should only be relevant if they subsequently abuse that status as revenge for being rejected.

What was his motivation in asking her?

...to see if she liked him and would therefore be amenable to him calling or texting her - you know, the same reason people generally ask for phone numbers in this manner.

Id be on record on boards as having a harsher attitude towards actiond which might be considered ambiguous, and a fairly zero tolerance attitude towards sexual assault and actual harassment, IE persistence after being rejected (see the thread about Louise O'Neill's Examiner article earlier this year for instance) but I absolutely draw the line at the suggestion that an initial advance can ever be regarded as wrong or harassment. Initial advances - IE, somebody having the courage to make a move - is how the vast majority of hookups and relationships are initiated, excluding those initiated among mutual friends. It's ridiculous to suggest that people should have to telepathically perceive whether somebody is interested before they do something as innocent as asking for their phone number - the universal standard for checking whether somebody is interested.

Press_Start

lawred2 wrote: »

I must have missed those days when it was acceptable to follow women back to their cars. Because apparently that's gone now.

I most check with my old man whether that's how he met my Mum.

I never said that that was appropriate or ever was, I was talking about medieval and rennaissance where courting was more official and more controlled. Nowadays it's liberal enough that you can have a boyfriend/ girlfriend for weeks without the parents or anyone knowing.

LadyMacBeth_

I enjoy objectifying both men and women.

#femalecreeperperks

Donal55

Would be interesting to see how many Me2 alleged offences transfer into actual police complaints, not charges but complaints to police regarding sexual harrassment or worse.

Galwayguy35

Herb Powell wrote: »

The whole point of this, as far as I can tell, is to try get men to take their heads out of their arses for just a few minutes and reflect on how we can start making sure that this **** becomes less and less common. This seems to be too much for some people, unfortunately. It's quite hilarious to see men accusing women taking part of playing the victim, when that is precisely what they're doing themselves by expressing such outrage.

I don't wolf whistle at women or grope them on public transport, it's not my job to police the rest of the male population so I'm not sure where you're going with this we business.

Press_Start

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't wolf whistle at women or grope them on public transport, it's not my job to police the rest of the male population so I'm not sure where you're going with this we business.

Jesus noone is saying it's your job. If you're so inscure that the women are getting onto you about everything maybe either stop trolling an being harsh on people that are actually affected, or stay out of it. It's fine to comment, but by saying "I don't do it, It's not my fault" thats fine, it just doesnt need to be said. You're just sticking your hand up and saying "it wasnt me"

backspin.

#MeSickOfTwitterHashTagsToo

A Little Pony

LadyMacBeth_ wrote: »

I enjoy objectifying both men and women.  

#femalecreeperperks

Exactly, of course women look at men and comment sexually. It's natural for a man to look at a woman's arse if it's that obvious. To most men it's a beautiful thing. Trying to hammer this natural tendency in men is like trying to piss against the wind, it's going nowhere. It's not happening.

Press_Start

A Little Pony wrote: »

Exactly, of course women look at men and comment sexually. It's natural for a man to look at a woman's arse if it's that obvious. To most men it's a beautiful thing. Trying to hammer this natural tendency in men is like trying to piss against the wind, it's going nowhere. It's not happening.

Very true. To me there's nothing wrong with looking. If you're a female and you're wearing yoga pants I'm assuming you know you look good and are alright with someone having a look, same with low cut tops.
The downside of this is staring. While having a little look is grand, having a good aul gawk is not really appropriate and women rarely have time for it, and rightly so.
I've been commented upon by women for my arse. And while flattering sometimes it's a little degrading for someone to just stare at you while you're trying to have a conversation or for someone to grab your arse. Both ways for both sexes. It's alright or someone to be offended if they are staring at your boobs or your arse, but if someone looks at your cleavage, or is caught having a glace at your bum, there's no real cause to be offended, it's only natural human nature.

retro:electro

LadyMacBeth_ wrote: »

I enjoy objectifying both men and women.

#femalecreeperperks

#metoo
:pac:

sunshine and showers

bucketybuck wrote: »

Said without irony in a thread about "#metoo"...

As someone who has been sexually assaulted, that hashtag IS about me.

Galwayguy35

Press_Start wrote: »

Jesus noone is saying it's your job. If you're so inscure that the women are getting onto you about everything maybe either stop trolling an being harsh on people that are actually affected, or stay out of it. It's fine to comment, but by saying "I don't do it, It's not my fault" thats fine, it just doesnt need to be said. You're just sticking your hand up and saying "it wasnt me"

Show me who I was being harsh with.

What women are getting on to me about everything?

I think it's you that's trolling because that post is the biggest load of horsesh1t I've read on here in a long time.

Press_Start

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Show me who I was being harsh with.

What women are getting on to me about everything?

I think it's you that's trolling because that post is the biggest load of horsesh1t I've read on here in a long time.

If someone is complaining that people do things, it's not helping to just put up your hand and say I don't do it it's none of my business or not my job to police it. Noone said it was your job, the post is discussing what the hashtag means.
I may have been harsh myself, and I apologize, but it does irk me when men think that just saying it doesnt involve them excuses or eliminates the behaviour that they are not even being accused of.

Herb Powell

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't wolf whistle at women or grope them on public transport, it's not my job to police the rest of the male population so I'm not sure where you're going with this we business.

Neither do I, and I think you're missing the point.

I don't feel responsible for the actions of dicckheads either, and I don't think we should. I think the point is to be aware, and to call a dicckhead a dicckhead when we see him acting as such.

The "we business" is simply stating that like it or not, we as may do have a say in where this goes. There is no need to feel threatened by this campaign.

Donal55

sunshine and showers wrote: »

As someone who has been sexually assaulted, that hashtag IS about me.

#metoo.

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote: »

No it won't. In no way will it. People jumping on a bandwagon will do the polar opposite of converting non believers.

Since when is saying that you have been abused "Jumping on the bandwagon?".
Comments like "jumping on the bandwagon" discourage men & women from coming forward & reporting the crime committed against them. I don't understand why that attitude is acceptable in sex crimes. no one would belittle an OAP for coming forward to report a mugging or handbag snatch. No one would dare say that the OAP was only jumping on the bandwagon

um7y1h83ge06nx

I presume the likes of Louise Mcsharry, Louise O'Neill and Una Mullaly are either homosexual or heterosexual and single?

With their very strong mistrust of men it's hard to imagine them seeing a guy.

lazybones32

I read that two-thirds of twitter users are female, so i don't see this as anything significant. A female dominated medium trending a female related issue is a sign of nothing.
It might make people feel safe, empowered or accepted online but real life happens when you log off.

How many internet fads and # movements have come and gone through the years?

anewme

When the Weinstein stuff came out, it actually made me think.

My thoughts were that this type of stuff surely happens to every woman?

Because I can give a list of, it must be 30 or so incidents down the years and every one of my female friends would be similar.

Incidents range from the banal wolf whistling and comments and oglers and gropers onnpublic transport to avoiding the 'Harvey's" (everyone knows who they are) to making sure you don't get caught by the the sleazy guy in the nightclub or at a work do with roman hands and Russian fingers. A couple of more serious incidents too, gropers, harassment and such like. Worst incident was a stalker.

I do think there has been massive improvements in the workplace. Or has there? , maybe now because I would most certainly speak up and am in a stronger more senior position that I am making this assumption.

I feel sad for my two little niece's that this is ahead for them. Certainly, I'd let no young person, boy or girl be a lounge boy or lounge girl, it's a horrible unsafe experience, I'd rather give them the money myself.

lazybones32

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Since when is saying that you have been abused "Jumping on the bandwagon?".
Comments like "jumping on the bandwagon" discourage men & women from coming forward & reporting the crime committed against them. I don't understand why that attitude is acceptable in sex crimes. no one would belittle an OAP for coming forward to report a mugging or handbag snatch. No one would dare say that the OAP was only jumping on the bandwagon

Posting a tweet with the #metoo isn't reporting a crime. It's a platform to say that abuse has occurred, without offering any evidence...which is dubious imo.

RacoonQueen

I only got as far as page 4 so not sure if it has been pointed out but the hashtag is meant to symbolise both sexual harassment and sexual assault.
I've seen a lot of women trivialise sexual assault - one saying she woke up a couple of times beside an ex boyfriend while he was ''feeling her up - without her consent''. Wonder does her husband have to ask her permission prior to ever touching her? :rolleyes:

When you lump in sexual harassment with sexual assault it is very unlikely that there are many women who couldn't say 'me too' - I've never experienced anything which bothered me but have definitely experienced things that could be construed (by other women) as both assault and harassment. I'd never think twice about them though. Maybe some women are being dramatic, maybe some are more sensitive due to other experiences...I dunno....but the hashtag rankles me as something which detracts from real sexual violence.

FWIW I'm sure many men could stick up the hashtag for the same reasons many of the women do.

kylith

RacoonQueen wrote: »

FWIW I'm sure many men could stick up the hashtag for the same reasons many of the women do.

They're welcome to. Sexual assault and harassment are not ok just because the victim is a man.

lazybones32

kylith wrote: »

They're welcome to. Sexual assault and harassment are not ok just because the victim is a man.

Wait a second...the patroness of the hashtag (rose mcgowan) gave some outburst on who is "allowed" use it. She backtracked and removed the lgbt from her banned list, citing being stoned as the reason for disallowing them in the first place.
#metoo

kylith

lazybones32 wrote: »

Wait a second...the patroness of the hashtag (rose mcgowan) gave some outburst on who is "allowed" use it. She backtracked and removed the lgbt from her banned list, citing being stoned as the reason for disallowing them in the first place.
#metoo

Well, she can feck off. She doesn't get to decide who uses a hashtag any more than one person gets to decide what makes another uncomfortable.

lazybones32

kylith wrote: »

Well, she can feck off. She doesn't get to decide who uses a hashtag any more than one person gets to decide what makes another uncomfortable.

A bit harsh to tell her to feck off, seeing as she has been highlighting and crusading for years about her sexual abuse and only now has it become mainstream. And it is getting hi-jacked by the looks of it.

__..__

The last time I whistled at a hot girl in a pub she turned around and told me to fcuk off. To which I replied that I was really hurt by that reaction and that I felt i was the one who was the victim and she was overeacting.

The_Kew_Tour

To be honest I think Wolf Whistling should be made a criminal offense if its in the public eye.

People might see thatcas extreme but a woman should be able to walk down the street without somebody making her feel uncomfortable