#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

One eyed Jack

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

Men are the biggest threat to everyone actually. The vast majority of the perpetrators and victims of violent and sexual* crime are men. But if you're not one of those perpetrators then there's no need to take that statement of fact personally.

Women are the biggest threat to babies IIRC. Women commit the most emotional abuse, by far. Women, God help us, are responsible for the Kardashians being famous.

See how I can say those things and it doesn't mean that I'm saying that any individual woman on this thread is an emotionally abusive infanticide enthusiast who rushes out to buy all the new Kardashian crap?

*men being the biggest perpetrators there, not victims.

I do, see what you're saying, and that's why I was saying earlier that I can't take the metoo hashtag stuff seriously. I don't take it personally when my friends say things like "all men are bastards" either, I don't take it personally when my friend eyeballs a guy and says "I'd rape him!", because I know her well enough to know that I'm not meant to take that seriously. But a complete stranger on the internet posts a metoo hashtag and expects to be taken seriously?

I just can't empathise with that because I have nothing to base that empathy on other than... a hashtag? It's just not something I can relate to. It's not like they're standing or sitting in front of me saying it, which would at least allow me to relate to them on some level, I'd at least then have some understanding of where they were coming from because I'd understand them better as a person and I would understand their experience better and they would understand too that I don't expect them to be able to give me a coherent and formal account of their experience.

I think the promotion of this idea that "men don't listen" is unfair not just to men, but it's also unfair to women because it's perpetuating a myth that there's no point in even trying. It does a disservice to men who actually do take the women and young girls in their lives seriously, and do actually want to protect them, and it does a disservice to women because it prevents them from finding out that there are men who do take them seriously.

Thankfully as I said though, there are only a small amount of people in society who want to perpetuate these types of gender myths, and the vast majority of women in my experience at least don't need to be told that men will take them seriously. They know as much already from an early age that they are listened to, and they will be believed.

anewme

PCeeeee wrote: »

Anewme, perhaps you are right. Maybe the metoo thing will help people. I don't know. There are elements to it that make me uncomfortable.

Chief among them is this. If a crime has been committed then it needs to be reported to the police. That is the way the system works. No report means no investigation means no conviction and punishment. The system does not work in the absence of reporting.

And that is the really worrying part of it.

I m not sure what help "me too "is either unless people are prepared to speak out.

But I do believe that there are a lot of assaults and incidents not reported or even in some cases recognised or acknowledged as assaults and still people (it's evident even on this thread) who will talk down people's experiences and make them feel like they are over reacting.

We've done a bit of work in this area personally as a family member grew up in an industrial school and you'd be amazed how these situations and codes of silence play out. It's a mine field.

Martina1991

The point of #metoo is to create awareness.

To make everyone realise how common sexual harassment is.

Harassment comes in many forms; they are not all as extreme as rape. They are not always physical acts. They’re threats, intimidations, peer pressure, guilt. Prove those.

I’ve had my share of experiences but I’ve never told anyone, because they happened on nights out. When men were too physical and who only took no for an answer on the 20th occasion and when I had to be quite forceful.

I didn’t tell anyone because I just wanted to forget about it. Move on and enjoy the night. Besides, they were strangers and they disappeared into the crowd. So there was no one to accuse. If every woman reported incidences like that the police would have their hands full.

The only way to stop it is to educate your children (boys and girls) about how to treat others, not just as kids but as teenagers too.

Wibbs

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

And so if there's something like, I don't know, a highly visible social media campaign off the back of one of the biggest news stories of the year where women talk about their experiences in a way men can't possibly miss the response would be "oh my god, thanks for telling me, I never realised because you didn't talk about it"?

and/or "if this is so endemic, why the hell wasn't this talked about before?", because apparently women haven't, because there "was no point". Or maybe actually we have been hearing this for years. The whole "1 in 4" stat(most corrupt "study" ever), the talk about rape culture, toxic masculinity etc etc.

Now most non morons wouldn't say "all men are responsible", but there are enough morons in this world. I've read a fair few suggesting that if every woman around you has been sexually abused/harrased, then every man you know around you has likely sexually abused/harrased a woman and again it's every man's responsibility to stop this. The same bulls1t campaign including one run in Ireland that men must stop rapists. That men, yes all men are responsible, even the ones who pledge support, because they're acknowledging that.

And I say fcuk that noise, I've had enough at this stage of the moral outrage and polarisation fuelled by social media and short attention spans and in many the need for attention. And yes that's a thing. Anyone who's been on Arsebook a wet week will be able to point to the notice boxes among their "friends". I've most certainly had my bloody fill of men™ being seen as responsible for all the world's ills, while women™ are seen as perpetual victims. Hell, that being a victim is somehow laudable in of itself. I'm sick to the back teeth of idiocy like this hashtag lumping women who have been raped in with women who have been catcalled. That's beyond moronic and cheapens it even further and people, men and women see this and beyond the surface will zone it out after a couple of weeks(if that).

And what will it achieve? Sweet eff all. Just "being listened to" on twitter might make some victims feel better because they're not alone and yes that's not to be sniffed at and it might make a few guys who catcall stop and think, but it will do nothing to stop the actual predators, the Weinstiens of this world. Predators that are almost certainly still working and abusing in Hollywood and fashion and music. Predators are different. No amount of shame will stop them. They have to be reported, caught and the key thrown away.

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

So you think women should tell men about their sexual harassment but get annoyed when they do that on social media?

Frankly yes.

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Thankfully as I said though, there are only a small amount of people in society who want to perpetuate these types of gender myths, and the vast majority of women in my experience at least don't need to be told that men will take them seriously. They know as much already from an early age that they are listened to, and they will be believed.

I agree 100% J, but apparently there are enough who don't.

LLMMLL

Im male and have a male friend I was discussing harassment with about a year ago. He didn't believe harassment of women was a serious problem. I started to read him the comments below an article in the guardian about women's experiences of harassment on public transport. He was disgusted but didn't believe it happened THAT often. He got a new girlfriend. Discussed it with her. She told him all her experiences. He was disgusted. Decided it was a dublin thing and if any of the stuff that happened to her happened down the country the perpetrator would be beaten. This is a perfectly nice guy but it's a losing battle trying to get him to believe how widespread this stuff is.

The gf isn't a strident feminist either. The attitude among her and her female friends is if you get super drunk at a party something bad will happen and its your own responsibility.

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly yes.

Well you can't have everything you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

One eyed Jack

Martina1991 wrote: »

The point of #metoo is to create awareness.

To make everyone realise how common sexual harassment is.

...

The only way to stop it is to educate your children (boys and girls) about how to treat others, not just as kids but as teenagers too.

But people are already aware of how common sexual harassment is, and they are aware of just how rare it is too, and they have been educating their children in how to treat others, and their children have learned how to treat others by learning from others too. That's why the metoo hashtag like all these other hashtags in the virtual world are ineffective at creating or raising any sort of awareness, because people are generally exposed to a lot more in their lives, for a lot longer, than the latest trending hashtag.

Martina1991

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But people are already aware of how common sexual harassment is, and they are aware of just how rare it is too, and they have been educating their children in how to treat others, and their children have learned how to treat others by learning from others too. That's why the metoo hashtag like all these other hashtags in the virtual world are ineffective at creating or raising any sort of awareness, because people are generally exposed to a lot more in their lives, for a lot longer, than the latest trending hashtag.

No they are not. Ask your partner/ sisters/ cousins/ friends if they've been sexually assaulted and I would say there's a good chance all of them have had some experience with it.

I wouldn't say it's been ineffective. We're all on this thread talking about it. It's been catapulted into the public eye and all over the media because it's been outed in Hollywood.

LLMMLL

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But people are already aware of how common sexual harassment is, and they are aware of just how rare it is too, and they have been educating their children in how to treat others, and their children have learned how to treat others by learning from others too. That's why the metoo hashtag like all these other hashtags in the virtual world are ineffective at creating or raising any sort of awareness, because people are generally exposed to a lot more in their lives, for a lot longer, than the latest trending hashtag.

A lot (I would say the vast majority) of men are not aware of how common it is and a lot of women have normalised it to themselves as something that just has to endured.

um7y1h83ge06nx

With the way things are going in the world I would not be surprised if in a few decades segregation is introduced and sex banned, driven by the fear of men. Insemination would be the means of conception.

A bit like that 90s action film Demolition Man where sex is seen as disgusting and instead people have sex through VR.

MRnotlob606

I had a guy complaining about that only 6 guys on his friend list were using it the hashtag on his facebook account. Absolute tool.

keith_sixteen

Social meeja is the worst.

kylith

sonic85 wrote: »

What do you want us to do about it - serious question? Can the women on the thread actually give solutions to this in a clear and concise way?

Wibbs wrote: »

*sound of crickets*

"Women are having an issue with men's behaviour. What are women going to do about it?" Let me put it this way: we're not sexually harassing and assaulting ourselves, are we?

How about suggestions from ye?

The vast majority of women appear to have issues with the behaviour of men they meet. What do you, other men, propose as a solution for this? Suggestions in a clear and concise way, please?

Wibbs wrote: »

Apparently they never or very rarely tell men about all these threats and assaults. It's not just a recent thing, even your mother's experiences mirrored your own. What's the bloody point is an easy out and again it's Men's™ fault, even though apparently Women™ don't say anything and haven't for generations.

Well, looking at this thread the reasons women don't talk about this is: not wanting to upset our loved ones when there's nothing they can do about it, being told that X shouldn't upset us when it does, being told we should take it as a compliment, being told we're blowing it out of proportion, being told we're lying, being told we're jumping on the bandwagon, knowing that we'll have to listen to 'But Y happens to men', knowing that the man we say it to will claim that he has never seen X happen so he won't believe it, knowing that we will be told that the guy who did it is actually a 'really nice guy' who didn't mean it, not wanting to relive it over and over if we do report something serious, not wanting to have our character assassinated in a court if we report something serious, an endless lifetime of hearing that we shouldn't be surprised that X happens if we walk down a certain street, or dress a certain way, or have a couple of drinks, or are alone with a man/men. I'm sure there are more.

Crea

Do you know why we don't tell?
Because if you do our freedom is restricted. Some sleaze feels you up at a disco/concert/holiday /pub as a teen and the parents answer is not to let their daughters go to those places again. "Don't put yourself in that position again" seems to be the message given to women.
Unless the Dad's, brothers, boyfriends actually shadow the women they aren't going to be there to break the fingers of every asshole would pinches, gropes and fondles.
They aren't going to be there to punch every guy who says prick tease or pushes you against a wall because you turned him down.
Tbh the vast majority of times it happened to me it was done by a stranger in passing and I couldn't point them out anyway.
In one case it was a friends husband and highlighting it would probably damage our friendship so I avoid him and "don't put myself into that position again".
Yet again women are blamed for it happening because we don't speak up when it does.
How about men keep their damn hands to themselves and not act like assholes when they hear the word "no"?

One eyed Jack

Martina1991 wrote: »

No they are not. Ask your partner/ sisters/ cousins/ friends if they've been sexually assaulted and I would say there's a good chance all of them have had some experience with it.

I wouldn't say it's been ineffective. We're all on this thread talking about it. It's been catapulted into the public eye and all over the media because it's been outed in Hollywood.

Why would I even want to ask anyone that? If someone tells me about their experience, I'll listen, but I have no intention of ever asking anyone have they ever been sexually assaulted. How many people have you ever asked have they been sexually assaulted? How many people have asked you have you ever been sexually assaulted? I know you posted some examples of your experiences a minute ago but it's just a thing with me that I wouldn't quote them as the person may want to retract them, but how many people have you risked relating your experiences to them offline? It's easier to 'raise awareness' with complete strangers, because you don't know them, they don't know you, and it'll all die down fairly soon anyway. That doesn't happen offline because you have to interact with your partner / sisters / cousins / friends every day, and they have to interact with you, so how much awareness are you raising really, and what is the significant effect of that?

There's none really, as most of the people you interact with on a daily basis offline still aren't aware of what you just told a bunch of complete strangers who have no daily interaction with you whatsoever.

Martina1991

kylith wrote: »

Well, looking at this thread the reasons women don't talk about this is: not wanting to upset our loved ones when there's nothing they can do about it, being told that X shouldn't upset us when it does, being told we should take it as a compliment, being told we're blowing it out of proportion, being told we're lying, being told we're jumping on the bandwagon, knowing that we'll have to listen to 'But Y happens to men', knowing that the man we say it to will claim that he has never seen X happen so he won't believe it, knowing that we will be told that the guy who did it is actually a 'really nice guy' who didn't mean it, not wanting to relive it over and over if we do report something serious, not wanting to have our character assassinated in a court if we report something serious, an endless lifetime of hearing that we shouldn't be surprised that X happens if we walk down a certain street, or dress a certain way, or have a couple of drinks, or are alone with a man/men. I'm sure there are more.

PREACH!

Sums up my sentiments better than I ever could.

In terms of dating, does this mean that women will start making approaches, initiating and encouraging encounters etc... now that almost any "romantic" initiative by a man towards a woman can be shown as sexual harassment?

Because I've been thinking back over conversations with friends and my own experiences, and mostly those little movements towards a relationship or dating happened because the man initiated them. The women usually waited for it to happen and then made their decision whether it was welcome or not.

The problem with the Metoo campaign is that it encourages fear in men. That anything we might do will be seen as sexual harassment. We already have to deal with nasty verbal rejections, mix-signals (the woman repeatedly touches you, but isn't actually interested), etc. but now a misunderstanding about her interest (or lackof) has moved beyond a simple mistake to something serious, and later, perhaps criminal.

I get that sexual harassment occurs. I think all men have seen it happen but how do you prevent it? Physical intervention brings a host of legal problems and even then, you're interfering with another persons' issues, and you don't really know whats going on.

I've seen a guy step in when he saw a woman being hit by her boyfriend and then experienced a bottle over the head by the girlfriend... she protected the boyfriend that hit her. When the Gardai arrived, the guy was charged with assault, not the boyfriend hitting the woman. But at the same time, campaigns like this tell us that men should intervene to protect women; To stop this kind of behavior from happening.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Martina1991

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Why would I even want to ask anyone that? If someone tells me about their experience, I'll listen, but I have no intention of ever asking anyone have they ever been sexually assaulted. How many people have you ever asked have they been sexually assaulted? How many people have asked you have you ever been sexually assaulted? I know you posted some examples of your experiences a minute ago but it's just a thing with me that I wouldn't quote them as the person may want to retract them, but how many people have you risked relating your experiences to them offline? It's easier to 'raise awareness' with complete strangers, because you don't know them, they don't know you, and it'll all die down fairly soon anyway. That doesn't happen offline because you have to interact with your partner / sisters / cousins / friends every day, and they have to interact with you, so how much awareness are you raising really, and what is the significant effect of that?

Why would you want to ask someone that? Because they're afraid or embarrassed about it. They're confidence and self esteem might be shot from it and your ignorance isn't helping.

No one has asked me that. I've told my bf and one of my best friends whose male and they were shocked and disgusted and angry that it happens.

Strangers sharing their experiences might cause others (like you) to take your blinkers off and see that harassment is happening all around you.

Sonics2k

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly yes.

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

I mean, you know I'm not fan of this "all men are dangerous" ****e, but your general attitude about this is kinda well, dickish. And I mean that in the nicest way.

Crea

Crea wrote: »

How about men keep their damn hands to themselves and not act like assholes when they hear the word "no"?

I agree with you. I suspect the vast majority of male posters here agree with you.

And it's not as if you walk into a club or bar, and every guy grabs you. Every night. Every time you go out. But that's what you and campaigns like this are promoting.

I've never grabbed a strangers ass. I've never wolf whistled at a woman. I don't shout crude comments at women. When I approach a woman for dating, if she refuses, I apologize politely and move away.

But this "men" outrage paints all men or even simply the majority of men as behaving badly. I don't see these campaigns shouting thanks to the men who don't behave badly... or highlighting the need to identify the minority that behaves badly.

Instead, it's "men".

kylith

kylith wrote: »

Well, looking at this thread the reasons women don't talk about this is: not wanting to upset our loved ones when there's nothing they can do about it, being told that X shouldn't upset us when it does, being told we should take it as a compliment, being told we're blowing it out of proportion, being told we're lying, being told we're jumping on the bandwagon, knowing that we'll have to listen to 'But Y happens to men', knowing that the man we say it to will claim that he has never seen X happen so he won't believe it, knowing that we will be told that the guy who did it is actually a 'really nice guy' who didn't mean it, not wanting to relive it over and over if we do report something serious, not wanting to have our character assassinated in a court if we report something serious, an endless lifetime of hearing that we shouldn't be surprised that X happens if we walk down a certain street, or dress a certain way, or have a couple of drinks, or are alone with a man/men. I'm sure there are more.

Now you can add women making men afraid to approach them in case they're arrested for showing interest to the list. It's a lot to be responsible for, best stay silent.

Don't assume all men are rapists BUT when you're out and about make sure you assume all men are rapists or questions will be asked - of you, now - if something happens you and you took the risk of assuming that they're not. People will ask what did you expect, and expecting not to be assaulted doesn't cut the mustard.

Sure, add your voice to those of other women who've endured harassment, but also take responsibility for upsetting men who don't. That's your fault, don't forget, so it's probably best for everyone concerned if you never talk about it and just let it go. It's not that big a deal, surely, and after all ALL women love to be harassed if the guy is good-looking, donchaknow.

Donald Trump

Crea wrote: »

Do you know why we don't tell?
Because if you do our freedom is restricted. Some sleaze feels you up at a disco/concert/holiday /pub as a teen and the parents answer is not to let their daughters go to those places again. "Don't put yourself in that position again" seems to be the message given to women.
Unless the Dad's, brothers, boyfriends actually shadow the women they aren't going to be there to break the fingers of every asshole would pinches, gropes and fondles.
They aren't going to be there to punch every guy who says prick tease or pushes you against a wall because you turned him down.
Tbh the vast majority of times it happened to me it was done by a stranger in passing and I couldn't point them out anyway.
In one case it was a friends husband and highlighting it would probably damage our friendship so I avoid him and "don't put myself into that position again".
Yet again women are blamed for it happening because we don't speak up when it does.
How about men keep their damn hands to themselves and not act like assholes when they hear the word "no"?

Very simplistic.

Some fellas go around putting their hands on women, one after another. They do it because eventually they'll find one girl who fancies them and won't be upset. I'm not talking about grabbing their boobs or that, maybe just putting their arms around their waist or rubbing up against them on the dancefloor

It's terrible and sleazy and used to piss me off no end to see it happen. But it does tend to "work" for those fella who are "playing the numbers".

When the recipient/target fancies the look of the fella, they will perceive it as him being confident or "a rogue". She doesn't realise, or want to realise, he's done the same thing to 10 other girls in the past hour and she was just the next on the list


Again, I'm not talking about grabbing boobs or arse, but to me it's a symptom of the same issue and can lead to more serious things

Martina1991

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem with the Metoo campaign is that it encourages fear in men. That anything we might do will be seen as sexual harassment. We already have to deal with nasty verbal rejections, mix-signals (the woman repeatedly touches you, but isn't actually interested), etc. but now a misunderstanding about her interest (or lackof) has moved beyond a simple mistake to something serious, and later, perhaps criminal.....
I But at the same time, campaigns like this tell us that men should intervene to protect women; To stop this kind of behavior from happening.

If that's the take home message you're getting you're way off the mark.

If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and assaulting one then you have a big problem.

This campaign isn't about getting men intervene to protect a woman. It's about men into assaulting a woman in the first place.

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of dating, does this mean that women will start making approaches, initiating and encouraging encounters etc... now that almost any "romantic" initiative by a man towards a woman can be shown as sexual harassment?

Because I've been thinking back over conversations with friends and my own experiences, and mostly those little movements towards a relationship or dating happened because the man initiated them. The women usually waited for it to happen and then made their decision whether it was welcome or not.

The problem with the Metoo campaign is that it encourages fear in men. That anything we might do will be seen as sexual harassment. We already have to deal with nasty verbal rejections, mix-signals (the woman repeatedly touches you, but isn't actually interested), etc. but now a misunderstanding about her interest (or lackof) has moved beyond a simple mistake to something serious, and later, perhaps criminal.

I get that sexual harassment occurs. I think all men have seen it happen but how do you prevent it? Physical intervention brings a host of legal problems and even then, you're interfering with another persons' issues, and you don't really know whats going on.

I've seen a guy step in when he saw a woman being hit by her boyfriend and then experienced a bottle over the head by the girlfriend... she protected the boyfriend that hit her. When the Gardai arrived, the guy was charged with assault, not the boyfriend hitting the woman. But at the same time, campaigns like this tell us that men should intervene to protect women; To stop this kind of behavior from happening.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

I think it is more when/if guys talk about stuff like grabbing pussy you point out it is not ok (it happens so obviously plenty don't know it is not ok) or if you are a role model you take the role seriously in this regard. Obviously not these won't apply to everyone. The point is to stop it from happening in the long run, not stop it as it happens.

I have seen nothing about stepping in to physically stop an altercation between strangers which seems to be entirely your own assumption.

Nor have I seen anything about all advances by men being sexual assault. That again is your own assumption all stories I have seen have been about unwanted physical contact, frequently with no interaction between the people involved beforehand.

Martina1991

Martina1991 wrote: »

If that's the take home message you're getting you're way off the mark.

If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and assaulting one then you have a big problem.

Love this. Note: I said sexual harassment. Not assault.

Martina1991

Deleted User wrote: »

And it's not as if you walk into a club or bar, and every guy grabs you. Every night. Every time you go out. But that's what you and campaigns like this are promoting.

But this "men" outrage paints all men or even simply the majority of men as behaving badly. I don't see these campaigns shouting thanks to the men who don't behave badly... or highlighting the need to identify the minority that behaves badly.

Promoting? It's creating awareness.

So you're saying for every night I go out and I haven't been assaulted I should put up FB status saying "Thanks to all the great guys out tonight you didn't assault me".

Martina1991

Deleted User wrote: »

Love this. Note: I said sexual harassment. Not assault.

Ok. If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and sexual harassment you have a big problem.

Better?

um7y1h83ge06nx

Martina1991 wrote: »

Ok. If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and sexual harassment you have a big problem.

Better?

In fairness to him there was a Twitter of an actress earlier in the thread very offended about being asked for her number.

Christy42

Christy42 wrote: »

I think it is more when/if guys talk about stuff like grabbing pussy you point out it is not ok (it happens so obviously plenty don't know it is not ok) or if you are a role model you take the role seriously in this regard. Obviously not these won't apply to everyone. The point is to stop it from happening in the long run, not stop it as it happens.

I haven't had a conversation with male friends like that since I was 15. I can't imagine too many men speaking like that with their male friends, although I'm sure some do. Some.

I have seen nothing about stepping in to physically stop an altercation between strangers which seems to be entirely your own assumption.

Okay. so men are not supposed try to stop perceived sexual harassment by another man to a woman. Ok. Gotcha.

Nor have I seen anything about all advances by men being sexual assault. That again is your own assumption all stories I have seen have been about unwanted physical contact, frequently with no interaction between the people involved beforehand.

I said sexual harassment. Not sexual assault. There is a bit of a difference.

But you missed my actual point. It was about interfering, but it's fine since you've pointed out earlier that men should not try to stop another man from behaving badly towards a woman.

keith_sixteen

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

I mean, you know I'm not fan of this "all men are dangerous" ****e, but your general attitude about this is kinda well, dickish. And I mean that in the nicest way.

ah would you give over. Who is this "awareness campaign" aimed at? What are it's aims? How will the success of this campaign be judged?

endacl

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

What says Boards ?, a good thing or a bad thing.

Thing. Definitely.

Martina1991

Martina1991 wrote: »

Promoting? It's creating awareness.

Promotion means creating awareness.

So you're saying for every night I go out and I haven't been assaulted I should put up FB status saying "Thanks to all the great guys out tonight you didn't assault me".

Nope. Although it might be better than generalising that men are grabbing your ass when you go out.

Ok. If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and sexual harassment you have a big problem.

Better?

Much better actually.

kylith

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly yes.

Shall we PM you then? Cos, y'know, we should talk about it, but apparently not on social media.

Crea

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with you. I suspect the vast majority of male posters here agree with you.

And it's not as if you walk into a club or bar, and every guy grabs you. Every night. Every time you go out. But that's what you and campaigns like this are promoting.

I've never grabbed a strangers ass. I've never wolf whistled at a woman. I don't shout crude comments at women. When I approach a woman for dating, if she refuses, I apologize politely and move away.

But this "men" outrage paints all men or even simply the majority of men as behaving badly. I don't see these campaigns shouting thanks to the men who don't behave badly... or highlighting the need to identify the minority that behaves badly.

Instead, it's "men".

It actually doesn't. Women telling their individual stories does not label all men but it does show how widespread the behaviour is.
An interesting consequence of this campaign for me is the voices if the male and female wait staff in pubs and restaurants. This is a daily occurrence in their work place. I have examined my own behaviour when I have heard suggestive comments made by women to the young male staff. Hopefully this campaign will highlight to the employers that they need to protect their staff from this and to men and women not to carry on like a bad Bennie Hill movie when out.

LLMMLL

George Colossal Tomato wrote: »

In fairness to him there was a Twitter of an actress earlier in the thread very offended about being asked for her number.

I think it's dodgy when someone working asks a customer/client/person on the street for their number randomly.

LLMMLL

keith_sixteen wrote: »

ah would you give over. Who is this "awareness campaign" aimed at? What are it's aims? How will the success of this campaign be judged?

Nobody said it was a centralized top down campaign.

keith_sixteen

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nobody said it was a centralized top down campaign.

So what is it?

LLMMLL

keith_sixteen wrote: »

So what is it?

Groups of women sharing their experiences. It's probably being called a campaign because it can be perceived to have a central message and loose goals I.e. raise awareness and contribute to the ending of the harassment.

Gbear

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

One could argue that speaking to people face to face will allow genuine understanding of what occurred and give you space to talk about the extent and nuance of what has happened, as well as more general experiences ones' peer group has had.
I've had these conversations with some of my female friends. I'm not close enough with them to expect total candour but it does give me a more intuitive sense of what it's like to face these situations.

On the other hand, a hashtag says that the people using the hashtag have maybe had something bad, of a sexual nature, happen to them.
The vagueness that makes it more palatable to engage with by avoiding going into uncomfortable details also means it lumps the inoccuous in with the apalling, but further to that, its credibility is undermined given the medium of social media's proclivity for narcissism.

Another issue, which I think is more important, is that social media doesn't really penetrate as a form of communication.

If you see an add that says "there's famine in Darfur", you'll probably shrug your shoulders and say "sure isn't that awful", and then promptly forget about it 30 seconds later.
If you see an add that shows starving babies it may well strike you enough for you to donate or at least think about it.
If you actually go and visit and live the experiences it'll haunt you for a lifetime.
I don't think social media connects with people. We think of it as a form of communication but it's so disconnected from how we actually communicate with other people that I think it doesn't really register.

If people take the idea as encouragement to talk to their peers about their experiences or if the hubbub makes people ignorant of the situation put some thought into it, then maybe that's enough.
As with a lot of things though, if it takes little effort to do, you probably can't expect much in the way of results, and the broader criticism is that it's possibly just a case of people tricking themselves into thinking they're doing something useful.

Wibbs wrote: »

And what will it achieve? Sweet eff all. Just "being listened to" on twitter might make some victims feel better because they're not alone and yes that's not to be sniffed at and it might make a few guys who catcall stop and think, but it will do nothing to stop the actual predators, the Weinstiens of this world. Predators that are almost certainly still working and abusing in Hollywood and fashion and music. Predators are different. No amount of shame will stop them. They have to be reported, caught and the key thrown away.

Well the thing there is that it's not black and white.
There's a sliding scale for all forms of ****ty behaviour.

What I'd like to see is some data about what men are actually doing.

If 5% of the male population are committing 99% of the sexual assaults or other related activities, then it's more accurate to blame no men for the problem than it is to blame all men.

It's almost certainly not that cut and dry though.
It might be more like 2% are seriously dangerous scumbags, another 15% are selfish pricks and in the right circumstances (particularly with drink involved) might do something to someone and then there's another 40% who might be generally on the right track but have ****ed up at some point (perhaps again because of drink).

If #metoo, or any similar campaign was to accomplish anything, it'd be with that 40%. People who are decent and open to introspection.

Obviously those numbers are pulled out of my arse, but the point is that we can't purge the obvious criminals in positions of power and then say, "yippy, we've solved sexual abuse!".

Sonics2k

keith_sixteen wrote: »

ah would you give over. Who is this "awareness campaign" aimed at? What are it's aims? How will the success of this campaign be judged?

It's safe to say it's aimed at both women and men.

For women, I guess it's to say "It's okay to speak out about this".
For men, then I guess it's to say "This has happened to more than you think it's happened to, and probably someone you know".

It's really not possible to say how anyone can measure the success of it, much like any other awareness campaign that's happened over the years, whether it's been about HIV, LGBT issues, Mental Health, or even famines in various countries.

What I truly don't get is the apparent frustration, anger or disgust some men are displaying towards this. Why does it bother you so much that some women are sharing their experiences?

Much like anything else on the internet, you can scroll past and ignore it, just like I do with any article from Vox Media or anything related to GamerGate.

Wibbs

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

Which has the more practical value? Hashtagging on twitter about something that happened/happens or telling those around you, men and women when it does. That's the message that should be promoted. Not suffer in silence twitter while changing bugger all in the long term. And if men™ have a responsibility to stop other men/themselves then surely - and brace yourselves, smelling salts at the ready - women™ should bear as much responsibility for telling them when it is happening? But nope it seems.

Let's regard that repellent greasy producer in the news. If the message was gotten across to women and men when younger that if they're harassed they should go straight to def con one and report it and others listen to those reports and act on them, that creep wouldn't have had the chance to abuse and intimidate women(and some men on the intimidation front) for the guts of three decades. Instead it seems it was an open secret in the business. As Ashley Judd said that when women in that business got together they spoke openly of it and had done so for years. Now fair play, she was first outa the gate to support her after Rose McGowan took a stand and the creep is getting roasted. But all those women who knew and weren't directly victims and especially the men who knew of this open secret and did nothing bear some responsibility for that rat bastard getting away with it for so long

Listening to victims is a given, but if victims won't step up and speak, then it's a case of a vigilant ear hearing nothing and that requires women(and men when it happens) to speak up and not on twitter.

Outlaw Pete

professore wrote: »

You think men don't have many of the same threats as you do and are much more likely to be physically assaulted than you are?

Well, as the saying goes: misery loves company but it hates competition.

You can talk about how guys fear other men when out and about but it never seems to resonate. I live in a rough part of Dublin for close to 15 years now and every.single.night I walk down my street I am fearful of being hit from behind as I put the key in my door given that it's happened twice around here. Same with walking down roads alone and hearing foot steps behind me, or seeing a group of lads walking in my direction, given how many men have been set upon and beaten senseless through no fault of their own (example). Indeed I have often changed route to avoid groups of men, particularly groups of drunk men.

Do I blame all men or think men (specifically) need to do something? No, because men and women run society and so whatever needs to be done needs to be done together. It's a societal problem and just because one gender may be more prone to behave in a certain way, that doesn't mean that the root cause of it and the solution to it, have nothing to do with the other gender. Quite the contrary in fact. There is a breakdown in western society when it comes to respecting authority and women absolutely have played a part in that in the same way men have. Indeed some would say (Warren Farrell) for example, that because of how much third wave feminism has shaped western society in the last forty years or more, that women have in fact had more of an influence on how society is now functioning.

Wibbs wrote: »

On more than a few occasions on nights out I have witnessed one woman accusing a guy in a group of being creepy and it spread like a virus among most of the other women there(usually increasing in intensity) so the guy yep defo a creep. And the men(who they looked to) got the guy to leave. In the majority of cases the "creep" didn't do a damn thing....

Witnessed the same thing umpteen times. Esther Vilar spoke of it in her book The Manipulated Man and was vilified for it. One of the few books on how men are manipulated to behave in certain ways. Not a chance anyone would have the ovaries to write a book such as it today.

B0jangles wrote: »

The last is the most contentious - if you know one of your friends gets obnoxious and 'handsy' when he's drunk - call that out, don't just laugh awkwardly and say that 'he's a tosser but he's a good guy really'. Shame is a powerful motivator. Even if he still thinks it's just good fun, he'll hopefully stop doing it when he's around you and that's a start.

Men do that all the time.

Not a huge fan of these videos (as many are set up with actors - the Joey Salads ones for example) but these two seem to be devoid of that and just look at the difference in reactions to a woman being harassed, to a man being harassed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egeea61eafs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmW8nzwd1rY

In fact, I can't think of anything which is frowned upon more than a man touching a woman without her permission. I have seen rows start after a man has even tried to speak to a woman after she has told him to fcuk off. Guys shame their mates ALL the time for this also. If for no other reason than that it would scare women off. I have no idea where you get this idea from that it's not shamed behavior. It very much is.

keith_sixteen

Sonics2k wrote: »

What I truly don't get is the apparent frustration, anger or disgust some men are displaying towards this. Why does it bother you so much that some women are sharing their experiences?

Much like anything else on the internet, you can scroll past and ignore it, just like I do with any article from Vox Media or anything related to GamerGate.

Oh I am not frustrated, angered or disgusted by any of this. Much less bothered. I want to be clear - someone started a thread asking if this is good or bad. If everyone who had a negative view of a this (or any subject) simply scrolled past, then there is no discussion. Why even ask the question?

By the same logic, you are quite free to scroll past my post.

And having a negative view of it does not equate to frustration, anger or disgust.

Rather, I am replying to the question such that, when I consider this "campaign" I see it as nothing more than the latest attention seeking craze on a platform filled with narcissists.

It will end as quickly as it began, people will forget it was ever a thing, and sexual harassment will continue to be as much of a problem as any of society's other ills.

For you to call someone out as a dick really marks you out as someone holding some sort of frustration or anger. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

Which has the more practical value? Hashtagging on twitter about something that happened/happens or telling those around you, men and women when it does. That's the message that should be promoted. Not suffer in silence twitter while changing bugger all in the long term. And if men™ have a responsibility to stop other men/themselves then surely - and brace yourselves, smelling salts at the ready - women™ should bear as much responsibility for telling them when it is happening? But nope it seems.

So there is only one approach to take and it's your approach and any other approach that is not as good as your approach must be derided.

Maybe it would be better if all these women told the men in their lives personally and not on twitter. There are reasons people don't feel comfortable doing that. You've heard already why women in the thread did not want to tell their parents. Getting them upset. Their father potentially threatening violence to the perpetrator. Having their freedom curtailed etc.

I personally was not aware of the sheer level of harassment women faced until I saw a similar type of social media campaign a few years back.

So just because posting on social media is not the perfect answer to the problem does not mean it's useless. And doesn't mean that your imperfect solution is any better really.

Let's regard that repellent greasy producer in the news. If the message was gotten across to women and men when younger that if they're harassed they should go straight to def con one and report it and others listen to those reports and act on them, that creep wouldn't have had the chance to abuse and intimidate women(and some men on the intimidation front) for the guts of three decades. Instead it seems it was an open secret in the business. As Ashley Judd said that when women in that business got together they spoke openly of it and had done so for years. Now fair play, she was first outa the gate to support her after Rose McGowan took a stand and the creep is getting roasted. But all those women who knew and weren't directly victims and especially the men who knew of this open secret and did nothing bear some responsibility for that rat bastard getting away with it for so long

Listening to victims is a given, but if victims won't step up and speak, then it's a case of a vigilant ear hearing nothing and that requires women(and men when it happens) to speak up and not on twitter.

Ah cmon there was a serious risk of having your career ruined if you were the first to try it. You've no idea if other women will support you, his lawyers could destroy you, and his media contacts could be full of "she was difficult to work with" stories.

It's like being a gay actor. Nobody knew if it could ruin your leading man status until someone tried. And who wants to be the test case?

Even if you think these women and men who knew bear responsibility you must be able to understand the human psychology as to why they didn't speak up until now.

kylith

Wibbs wrote: »

Let's regard that repellent greasy producer in the news. If the message was gotten across to women and men when younger that if they're harassed they should go straight to def con one and report it and others listen to those reports and act on them, that creep wouldn't have had the chance to abuse and intimidate women(and some men on the intimidation front) for the guts of three decades.

Courtney Love came out and all but said it directly on TV; she was reportedly blackballed by CAA for it. A woman publically said that women should avoid HW and the reaction was for her agency to punish her. Why? Because he was a powerful man. Because he could make or break careers.

Why didn't other women come out? Because if they did then he could ensure they never worked again, and because if it went to court he would have the money to drag it out over years, financially and mentally ruining them. Instead they warned other women off privately, but then they face the dilemma that if you piss off Weinstein he can hurt you via your career.

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Well, as the saying goes: misery loves company but it hates competition.

You can talk about how guys fear other men when out and about but it never seems to resonate. I live in a rough part of Dublin for close to 15 years now and every.single.night I walk down my street I am fearful of being hit from behind as I put the key in my door given that it's happened twice around here. Same with walking down roads alone and hearing foot steps behind me, or seeing a group of lads walking in my direction, given how many men have been set upon and beaten senseless through no fault of their own (example). Indeed I have often changed route to avoid groups of men, particularly groups of drunk men.

Do I blame all men or think men (specifically) need to do something? .

The physical violence a man might face is nowhere near as pervasive as the general level of harassment a woman faces.

I've been seriously physically assaulted in a robbery once. I can think of maybe 1 situation every 2 years where some junkie type made me feel like he might attack me. That's about it. I'd say most men are the same and feel safe at work, in a nightclub, etc.

Yes we are subject to physical attacks and lower level harassment from scummers. But it's nowhere near the level of sexual stuff that women get.

And if you start a thread on an assault or harassment from a scumbag you'll get plenty of sympathy and agreement.

Sonics2k

Wibbs wrote: »

Which has the more practical value? Hashtagging on twitter about something that happened/happens or telling those around you, men and women when it does. That's the message that should be promoted. Not suffer in silence twitter while changing bugger all in the long term. And if men™ have a responsibility to stop other men/themselves then surely - and brace yourselves, smelling salts at the ready - women™ should bear as much responsibility for telling them when it is happening? But nope it seems.



Listening to victims is a given, but if victims won't step up and speak, then it's a case of a vigilant ear hearing nothing and that requires women(and men when it happens) to speak up and not on twitter.

Of course speaking out directly is better, but that's not always an option. There is genuine fear of repercussions for speaking out against abusers or sexual harassment and especially rape.

For a lot of people, it's easier to speak out about these things on social media, where there is a level of anonymity or at least separation from the people you're speaking to.

Plenty of men and women have spoken up publicly about abuse over the years, and they are constantly dismissed. Or they get high praise for a few weeks and then it flutters out in our overwhelmed and schizophrenic news cycle.

Again, I'm absolutely baffled by your apparent annoyance at people expressing their opinions or experiences on social media.

I get the annoyance at the "all men are rapists" stuff, because it's nonsense. I get the annoyance at over-reactive 3rd wave feminists who want nothing more than to play the victim, but in this very thread I have watched you actively dismiss someone who is expressing their own damn experiences with sexual harassment.

Admittedly, you're not rude, but you're kinda being a bit of a dick in your general tone and approach Wibbs.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.