#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

So there is only one approach to take and it's your approach and any other approach that is not as good as your approach must be derided.

No, but at least I gave practical reasons for my approach.

Maybe it would be better if all these women told the men in their lives personally and not on twitter.

There's no maybe to it.

There are reasons people don't feel comfortable doing that. You've heard already why women in the thread did not want to tell their parents. Getting them upset. Their father potentially threatening violence to the perpetrator. Having their freedom curtailed etc.

Which is why I said what needs to be looked at and early on is changing the environment where such things occur. Again being practical.

So just because posting on social media is not the perfect answer to the problem does not mean it's useless. And doesn't mean that your imperfect solution is any better really.

The difference being that "my" plan if it were implemented would make an actual practical difference in stopping women being sexually assaulted, a twitter like this campaign almost certainly will not.

Even if you think these women and men who knew bear responsibility you must be able to understand the human psychology as to why they didn't speak up until now.

Oh I do and I reserve my blame for those who weren't going to lose out, those who were powerful. If Brad Pitt had gone public when Weinstein tried to grope up his girlfriend at the time Gwyneth Paltrow(or when he tried it on again with a later GF Angelina Jolie) he could have stopped the bastard in his tracks. This is Brad Pitt here. One of the most famous and rich and powerful - can green light a film - actors in the world. If he came out with it he would be listened to. And he's not the only one. Tarantino was very close to HV and had one of his GF's propositioned and he was the biggest ticket director on the go for many a year. If he had said WTF and went public HV would have been in serious trouble. This doesn't include other "stars" and powerful people in Hollywood. This floodgates of other women coming forth would have happened in the nineties, not 2017. But no the hypocritical bastards were happy to suck on his money flowing teat.

Wibbs

Sonics2k wrote: »

Admittedly, you're not rude, but you're kinda being a bit of a dick in your general tone and approach Wibbs.

Disagreeing with some of the consensus and not automatically jumping in step and asking questions = bit of a dick? Noted. I'll wear the label happily in that case.

Sonics2k

Wibbs wrote: »

Disagreeing with some of the consensus and not automatically jumping in step and asking questions = bit of a dick? Noted. I'll wear the label happily in that case.

That's not what I said. By all means, disagree with anyone you wish, even if i don't quite understand why you don't like the concept of women speaking on social media. Hell, I'd safely say I largely agree with you in most other threads over the last few years.

Hell, I think this whole 'campaign' is a waste of time, but if it helps some people deal with their issues then go for it. It's not hurting anyone, doesn't cause any real problems and makes them feel that bit better.

Outlaw Pete

kylith wrote: »

"Women are having an issue with men's behaviour. What are women going to do about it?" Let me put it this way: we're not sexually harassing and assaulting ourselves, are we?

Eh, yeah, sometimes ye are. Example.

Could women have done something to stop that woman being raped? Or the raping of boys, how about that. Could women do more there? Are ye not shaming that stuff enough?

Or how about women who make false rape allegations'? Two more jailed in the UK this week (1,2).

That's in the UK though. Well, how about some Irish cases:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2016/1102/ireland/suspended-jail-term-for-woman-who-made-false-rape-report-428568.html
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-made-false-rape-allegation-against-man-she-was-angry-with-court-34152990.html
http://connachttribune.ie/suspended-sentence-for-city-woman-for-false-rape-allegation/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/suspended-jail-sentence-over-false-rape-claim-1.461293
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/false-rape-claim-woman-has-sentence-suspended-25917481.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/suspended-sentence-and-fine-for-student-who-made-wicked-false-rape-claim-650224.html
http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/woman-handed-suspended-sentence-after-pleading-guilty-to-manslaughter-27702140.html
http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/mum-55-who-made-fake-rape-claim-was-more-mad-than-bad-27971303.html

Now, if a guy said in response to the above:

Men are having an issue with WOMEN'S behaviour. What are men going to do about it??? Let me put it this way: we're not falsely accusing ourselves of rape, are we? What are YE going to do about it??

That wouldn't make much sense would it? And so what makes you think it's okay to say this kind of thing in the other direction then?

All this stuff you are talking about (and other women with their #metoo'ing) is not an issue for men to find solutions to (exclusively at any rate) no more than crimes that women are prone to committing are issues which just women need to find solutions to. They are societal issues and as such we are equally responsible for dealing with them.

I think it's a good point to remind some folks (given that this was all kicked off the Harvey Weinstein situation) that some women played a HUGE part in enabling that man's behaviour. Many of them even took cash settlements in exchange for keeping their mouths shut. Yet apparently it's just men who need to address how they conduct themselves.

Permabear

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LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

The difference being that "my" plan if it were implemented would make an actual practical difference in stopping women being sexually assaulted, a twitter like this campaign almost certainly will not.

I don't know where you're getting your certainty from. As I mentioned earlier a guy I know was told of his gfs experiences and he tried to frame it as a "dublin thing".

Being confronted by a huge volume of these experiences through social media is one way to show its a universal experience for women.

MAYBE your way is better. MAYBE the social media way is better. Maybe they will both raise awareness. This idea you're peddling that your way is the only way and your certainty about it is nonsense.

Oh I do and I reserve my blame for those who weren't going to lose out, those who were powerful. If Brad Pitt had gone public when Weinstein tried to grope up his girlfriend at the time Gwyneth Paltrow(or when he tried it on again with a later GF Angelina Jolie) he could have stopped the bastard in his tracks. This is Brad Pitt here. One of the most famous and rich and powerful - can green light a film - actors in the world. If he came out with it he would be listened to. And he's not the only one. Tarantino was very close to HV and had one of his GF's propositioned and he was the biggest ticket director on the go for many a year. If he had said WTF and went public HV would have been in serious trouble. This doesn't include other "stars" and powerful people in Hollywood. This floodgates of other women coming forth would have happened in the nineties, not 2017. But no the hypocritical bastards were happy to suck on his money flowing teat.

Please no actor is unsinkable. Plenty of once a-listers have faded into obscurity and it's easy enough to become the butt of Hollywood jokes. If Pitt came forward independently and said two of his former partners had been harassed by Weinstein it wouldn't be hard to muddy his repuation. Sure the reason these people didn't do anything was self interest but getting up on your high horse and painting them as awful people just shows a complete lack of understanding in my opinion.

LLMMLL

Permabear wrote: »

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Judd and beckinsale are good examples actually. Neither of them are making big hits anymore. It's easy to fade in Hollywood. HW could easily have speeded up that fate if he chose to.

Wibbs

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's not what I said. By all means, disagree with anyone you wish, even if i don't quite understand why you don't like the concept of women speaking on social media.

Not just women S. I find pretty much any ArseBook or Hashtag "campaign" to be more about ego stroking, echo chambering, oneupmanship in support, victimhood and "virtue signalling"(lord I hate that term but it works for me here), even if it starts off with the best intentions.

Hell, I think this whole 'campaign' is a waste of time, but if it helps some people deal with their issues then go for it.

Which I did say S. As for not hurting anybody, I have a real issue with the potential for accusations levelled at men as part of this hashtag and social media in general. And an accusation of rape is about as bad an accusation one could throw out and it's bound to stick, even if exonerated, the doubt will follow the accused. That's mob rule and why we built up a huge legal layer over the last thousand years to fight that. OK S say someone accused you of sexual assault in a tweet. What could you do about it once it's out? Not a lot. Sue them for slander or whatever the legal term is? OK let's imagine you win, chances are high nada will happen to your accuser and that smell will hang around you for life.

Permabear

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Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

This idea you're peddling that your way is the only way and your certainty about it is nonsense.

I didn't;t say it was the only way. That's projection on your part. I suggested it might be a better way, alongside twitter if needs be.

Please no actor is unsinkable. Plenty of once a-listers have faded into obscurity and it's easy enough to become the butt of Hollywood jokes. If Pitt came forward independently and said two of his former partners had been harassed by Weinstein it wouldn't be hard to muddy his repuation.

Do you honestly believe that if Pitt, Paltrow, Jolie, Tarantino(and a few others) all at the height of their powers and more, huge cash making abilities had gone public Weinstein would have a job?

Sure the reason these people didn't do anything was self interest but getting up on your high horse and painting them as awful people just shows a complete lack of understanding in my opinion.

The first part of that sentence doesn't really square with the second part. For decades they ignored a serial harasser and rapist of women out of self interest. That's about as morally bankrupt as one could be. And many of these same muppets have openly campaigned on behalf of Roman Polanski, a convicted fugitive from the law rapist of a 13 year old girl.

This is about as high as my horse needs to be:


What puzzles me is why you think that level of hypocrisy is so easily explained, nay defended?

LLMMLL

Permabear wrote: »

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Exactly. And I can completely understand why someone would look after themselves first. Maybe you're a saint, but I doubt it.

Sonics2k

Wibbs wrote: »

Not just women S. I find pretty much any ArseBook or Hashtag "campaign" to be more about ego stroking, echo chambering, oneupmanship in support, victimhood and "virtue signalling"(lord I hate that term but it works for me here), even if it starts off with the best intentions.

Ah sure, you know I'm not a fan of any of that nonsense either. We've spoken about it in the past.

I do think it's unfair to jump to the conclusion that it's all about victimhood and so on. I'd safely say that a lot of it is true. Sure, maybe they're not all rape victims, but they could still be victims of sexual harassment, groping and so on.

Wibbs wrote: »

Which I did say S. As for not hurting anybody, I have a real issue with the potential for accusations levelled at men as part of this hashtag and social media in general. And an accusation of rape is about as bad an accusation one could throw out and it's bound to stick, even if exonerated, the doubt will follow the accused. That's mob rule and why we built up a huge legal layer over the last thousand years to fight that. OK S say someone accused you of sexual assault in a tweet. What could you do about it once it's out? Not a lot. Sue them for slander or whatever the legal term is? OK let's imagine you win, chances are high nada will happen to your accuser and that smell will hang around you for life.

I personally have been accused, as have two very close friends of mine. I've spoken about it briefly in the past. I also know several women who have been raped, and a couple of men too.

I don't agree with any person who decides to name and shame on a platform such as Twitter or Facebook unless they have first of all gone to the police and gone through legal proceedings.

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about the #metoo campaign which simply says that women who have been sexually assaulted should use the hashtag to try and spread awareness, to my memory nobody involved in getting the ball rolling said you should name and shame too. Well, not unless you have 100% proof.

Christy42

As ever instead if talking about the issue it quickly turns into this is the wrong way to get the message across. That quite frankly is a tired argument. If it is non violent and gets discussion going then it is indeed the right way to protest.

The issue is out there. We know it is happening a lot. Why not actually discuss it as opposed to some bull about if social media is the best way to discuss it.

I know it hurt me how many of my friends were affected. How many had had incidents. Can I solve the entire issue in one go? Absolutely not. I make my point clear and help ensure people realise it is wrong. If I ever end up a father or father figure I can help pass on the message.
None of my friends are expecting me to stop all the scumbags in the world. I can do what I can and more importantly I can not simply give out about women who come forward with their stories (which always happens-see this thread)

Outlaw Pete

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

I mean, you know I'm not fan of this "all men are dangerous" ****e, but your general attitude about this is kinda well, dickish. And I mean that in the nicest way.

There's a difference between talking about negative experiences in life because you're looking for help or because you want to be part of something which would lessen the chances of it happening to others..... and hashtagging for attention. That experiences of sexual assault are being reduced to the latest # just sums up today's narcissistic society. There is now social cache in having been sexually harassed / assaulted. I thought #shoutyourabortion was classless enough but this is on a par with it.

I feel sorry for any female (or male) that feels isolated in society and sees #metoo as a way for them to express themselves and maybe not feel as alone, my heart goes out to anyone like that, but I genuinely believe such cases to be around 1% of the total, if that. The rest are nothing but the usual attention seekers who post mindless nonsense about sexism on the daily. Spent a good while over the past few days reading a chunk of 'em and then taking a quick gander at the user's accounts and it's clear that's what's happening here.

So, even with regards to the genuine 1%, I still think they should give it a rest as those genuine voices will just get lost in the din anyway. They're mere needles in a haystack of self centered fashionable victimhood and they'd be much better off attending a support group or even posting in a dedicated forum where they could speak with other genuine victims, rather than have their experience of abuse get ignored and so man of them are.

I seen what looked like genuine references to sexual abuse get tweeted and after two days have 1 like, given that the user had little followers and there are so many people tweeting with this hashtag that so many don't get noticed. At least with Facebook, or a forum like PI here, how popular you are doesn't dictate how visible you are. Not so with Twitter and that's just another reason why it's really not the place for it.

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

I didn't;t say it was the only way. That's projection on your part. I suggested it might be a better way, alongside twitter if needs be.

You've been so incredibly derisive of the Twitter approach I find it hard to believe it's projection on my part that you think your recommended path is the only way. If you do in fact believe Twitter may have a part to play then the tone of your previous posts is quite bizarre.

Do you honestly believe that if Pitt, Paltrow, Jolie, Tarantino(and a few others) all at the height of their powers and more, huge cash making abilities had gone public Weinstein would have a job?

It would 100% depend on whether anyone would support them. It's unrealistic to think Tarantino would get a group of people together to accuse HW. Maybe a tad more believable that Pitt could have brought Jolie and Paltrow together to accuse HW. I don't think those three on their own could have brought him down. In fact I think he'd easily brush it off. And I think it absolutely could affect the accusers careers.

The first part of that sentence doesn't really square with the second part. For decades they ignored a serial harasser and rapist of women out of self interest. That's about as morally bankrupt as one could be. And many of these same muppets have openly campaigned on behalf of Roman Polanski, a convicted fugitive from the law rapist of a 13 year old girl.

This is about as high as my horse needs to be:


What puzzles me is why you think that level of hypocrisy is so easily explained, nay defended?

Well then there's a lot of morally bankrupt people about. Because all this harassment at the non-celebrity level has plenty of bystanders who did nothing too. One of the reasons I hear about why people do not believe these stories is that if they actually happened "oh I would have stepped in and stopped it and so would other men". In reality it doesn't happen. A friend of mine was harassed by a guy while waiting for a friend on the street a few weeks ago. Nobody standing around her told him to feck off.

Permabear

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One eyed Jack

Martina1991 wrote: »

Why would you want to ask someone that? Because they're afraid or embarrassed about it. They're confidence and self esteem might be shot from it and your ignorance isn't helping.

That reply doesn't answer what I asked! If they're afraid or embarrassed about it, they're certainly not going to tell me. You have hit the nail on the head though as to one of the reasons why someone may wish to keep an experience like that to themselves - because they are afraid or embarrassed about it. I know I was, and because I can understand a lot more about other people besides myself too, I'm not going to suggest you're ignorant for something you couldn't possibly have known about me. The reason I didn't say anything and the reason I don't say anything is because this particular "metoo" stuff? I don't think it's either the time nor the place for me to say "me too".

No one has asked me that. I've told my bf and one of my best friends whose male and they were shocked and disgusted and angry that it happens.

Exactly my point - nobody asked you about it, because it's generally not something anyone would ask. It's weird and inappropriate, and it's very likely to make someone feel incredibly uncomfortable to be asked anything even remotely like that, even in the context of a discussion about women's experiences throughout their lifetimes of being intimidated, harassed, verbally and sexually assaulted and abused by men. In order for anyone to know about it though, you had to tell them, you didn't just assume they should ask you, so why you think I should ask women I know have they ever experienced this behaviour from men is something I simply cannot get my head around. I don't see what useful purpose it could ever serve other than to make them feel incredibly uncomfortable. I'm ok with being there for them to listen to them if and when they ever feel ready to tell me. They own that decision and it is entirely up to them and within their control when and whom they choose to allow themselves to give that information about themselves to, because once it's out there, they have no control over that information about themselves any more.

Would you listen and believe me if I told you I'm disgusted and angry that it happens? People generally are, and that's why most people regard such behaviour as inappropriate. I'm not shocked by it though, nor am I shocked by the scale of the issue, which is much greater than any numbers of metoo hashtags (yes, even the fake ones, and before you register shock at the suggestion of fake accounts of inappropriate behaviour for validation, think of the numbers of fake tweets and accounts following any trending tragedy on social media!). I'm not shocked by it because I spent nearly 20 years researching and working with people who have been subjected to all manner of violent and sexual assaults and abuse. You couldn't possibly have known that about me either, and I still wouldn't suggest you were ignorant for not knowing because how could you possibly know? I chose not to tell you.

Strangers sharing their experiences might cause others (like you) to take your blinkers off and see that harassment is happening all around you.

Yeah, I get the idea of strangers sharing their experiences being something of a... well, shared experience for them, but me personally? I don't let my experience define who I am as a person, it doesn't. By now you've probably picked up on the fact that I don't wear blinkers, and I'm quite aware of what happens around me (peripheral vision is a bit awkward though I grant you :pac:), but because I'm aware of what happens around me, I'm also acutely aware of the fact that other people are too. They just may not wish you or I to know about their experiences, which is why I said the hashtagging and the social media validation may help what is but a vanishingly small minority of people who are actually affected by the issue, and also has the opposite of the intended effect by shaming people into silence who don't agree that there is any benefit for them to prostrate themselves in front of their peers.

professore

Martina1991 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

And it's not as if you walk into a club or bar, and every guy grabs you. Every night. Every time you go out. But that's what you and campaigns like this are promoting.

But this "men" outrage paints all men or even simply the majority of men as behaving badly. I don't see these campaigns shouting thanks to the men who don't behave badly... or highlighting the need to identify the minority that behaves badly.

Promoting? It's creating awareness.

So you're saying for every night I go out and I haven't been assaulted I should put up FB status saying "Thanks to all the great guys out tonight you didn't assault me".

Yeah maybe you should. There are certainly enough guys saying how wonderful their wives girlfriends and women in general are on there.

Christy42

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There's a difference between talking about negative experiences in life because you're looking for help or because you want to be part of something which would lessen the chances of it happening to others..... and hashtagging for attention. That experiences of sexual assault are being reduced to the latest # just sums up today's narcissistic society. There is now social cache in having been sexually harassed / assaulted. I thought #shoutyourabortion was classless enough but this is on a par with it.

I feel sorry for any female (or male) that feels isolated in society and sees #metoo as a way for them to express themselves and maybe not feel as alone, my heart goes out to anyone like that, but I genuinely believe such cases to be around 1% of the total, if that. The rest are nothing but the usual attention seekers who post mindless nonsense about sexism on the daily. Spent a good while over the past few days reading a chunk of 'em and then taking a quick gander at the user's accounts and it's clear that's what's happening here.

So, even with regards to the genuine 1%, I still think they should give it a rest as those genuine voices will just get lost in the din anyway. They're mere needles in a haystack of self centered fashionable victimhood and they'd be much better off attending a support group or even posting in a dedicated forum where they could speak with other genuine victims, rather than have their experience of abuse get ignored and so man of them are.

I seen what looked like genuine references to sexual abuse get tweeted and after two days have 1 like, given that the user had little followers and there are so many people tweeting with this hashtag that so many don't get noticed. At least with Facebook, or a forum like PI here, how popular you are doesn't dictate how visible you are. Not so with Twitter and that's just another reason why it's really not the place for it.

Maybe you should pass out the exact correct way for women (and men) to discuss their experiences so that you don't have to deride 99% of them off as attention seekers?

You also seem to wonder why they feel they won't he believed. You don't believe most of them. Don't give me that bull about it being social media. Social media is how they can communicate to others that they are not alone without forcing people to do more yet research to find the right places?

Of course your own method is handy. Go point out there is a big issue in society over there where no one has to look at you. It is always the wrong way to speak up apparently. You don't want to see it then get off social media.

neonsofa

professore wrote: »

Yeah maybe you should. There are certainly enough guys saying how wonderful their wives girlfriends and women in general are on there.

Not sure why you'd equate that to someone thanking men for not not harassing them. Bizarre.

LLMMLL

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't know much about the financial crisis. As far as I'm aware some bankers seemed to believe or hope it wouldn't go all tits up. I could understand these people. I believe there were others who were well aware of what was happening and there are recorded phone calls of them laughing about it. I wouldn't have any understanding of them. If Pitt, Streep etc. were laughing about sexual harassment to each other on the phone then that would make them ****s. I see it as similar to the Irish society that abuse was allowed flourish in. I don't think it occurred to these people to challenge the behaviour and I don't think that makes them terrible people. This is all way off topic by the way so that's all I have to say on Pitt and co.

Liamario

It's dangerous. It doesn't give the accused an opportunity to present their side and even if they did, they wouldn't be believed. Also, if you think some of the stories being told aren't lies, inaccurate or open to interpretation you're wrong.

Outlaw Pete

Christy42 wrote: »

Maybe you should pass out the exact correct way for women (and men) to discuss their experiences so that you don't have to deride 99% of them off as attention seekers?

I already did. Pay attention:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

.....they'd be much better off attending a support group or even posting in a dedicated forum where they could speak with other genuine victims, rather than have their experience of abuse get ignored and so many of them are.

Christy42 wrote: »

You also seem to wonder why they feel they won't he believed. You don't believe most of them. Don't give me that bull about it being social media. Social media is how they can communicate to others that they are not alone without forcing people to do more yet research to find the right places?

You clearly speed read my post as I didn't vilify ALL of social media (as you are suggesting). In fact I did the opposite and highlighted good social media:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

At least with Facebook, or a forum like PI here, how popular you are doesn't dictate how visible you are.

Maybe stick your glasses on next time you're reading my posts.

professore

Men cannot ask women if they have been sexually harassed or raped as that in itself would be seen as sexual harassment, even if the motive was completely genuine. And in all these things, some men can get away with pushing the boundaries way more than others, as similarly some women are more comfortable talking about it than others.

The net effect is that decent men are afraid to even talk to women, leaving the field clear for the predators who don't give a **** about hashtags and consent classes.

On the hashtag itself, if I saw someone using it of my friends, I would ask her about it as she's made it public. So that could be a good thing.

professore

neonsofa wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Yeah maybe you should. There are certainly enough guys saying how wonderful their wives girlfriends and women in general are on there.

Not sure why you'd equate that to someone thanking men for not not harassing them. Bizarre.

Well maybe because decent men are the most unappreciated members of modern society? The ones that risk their lives, bust their asses every day to provide for their loved ones without complaining or ever looking for recognition or reward. No. They are all evil rapists.

Permabear

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professore

Why does nobody ever say anything about these men's mothers? After all in most cases it was them that raised these men to treat women like crap. One of my neighbours with two sons says women are all bitches. How do you think they will grow up?

If a man succeeds it's always down to the mother according to the media. If he fails there is no mention. It's all inconsistent nonsense.

ressem

Maybe the hash tag claims is an OK start because it is the easiest way to start talking about something that has hurt you.
Plenty of us get assaulted in less hurtful ways and may take repeated attacks to talk to others, let alone the guards. (e.g. mugging attempts at knifepoint). After you've got past the event, you want it in the past and gone, pushed as far out of thought as possible.

Especially in the case of organisational abuse where male and female employees choose to defend the reputation and income of their organisation...

Regarding complaints to the US Gymnastics team abuse, when they were deemed to be secondhand knowledge and hearsay then the reports were relegated to a filing cabinet.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/investigations/2016/08/04/usa-gymnastics-sex-abuse-protected-coaches/85829732/
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3001508-Posan-Colarossi-Kelly-on-Files.html

In this era of intense datamining a "me too" that was focused on assaults might allow these abuses to come to light earlier when people in a circle of contacts become aware of each other, that it isn't just them.
Reports of one-off wolf whistling and ogling will dilute this, assign that it's own tag.

professore

By the way I think mammies are great in general, just making a point what bull**** it all is.

professore

By the way I think mammies are great in general, just making a point what bull**** it all is.

neonsofa

professore wrote: »

Well maybe because decent men are the most unappreciated members of modern society? The ones that risk their lives, bust their asses every day to provide for their loved ones without complaining or ever looking for recognition or reward. No. They are all evil rapists.

But those men are decent for the reasons you list above, not purely due to the fact that they didn't harass a woman on a night out. You're complaining that men are viewed as evil rapists yet you told another poster that she should post on twitter thanking men for not grabbing her on nights out. Basically saying that men should be applauded and hailed as decent men when they don't harass and rape women. It makes no sense. Can you not see why i am confused by your posts??

Wibbs

There's the other worrying aspect to online accusations and from the victims point of view. If a woman accuses a man on twitter or wherever it's likely to prejudice any case she might bring and a defence lawyer for the accused would have a field day with that.

Christy42

Wibbs wrote: »

There's the other worrying aspect to online accusations and from the victims point of view. If a woman accuses a man on twitter or wherever it's likely to prejudice any case she might bring and a defence lawyer for the accused would have a field day with that.

Few have named anyone that I have seen. They have simply reported what happened without names. Again this has turned into claiming that the women are lying which it always does (1 poster had it at 99% attention seeking) and another is not discussing anything but false accusations. Anything to avoid discussing that there might be a large issue here that people are uncomfortable discussing.

Permabear

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Christy42

Permabear wrote: »

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A few idiots does not make 99%. Are you denying there is an issue here where a lot of women have had legitimate issues?

Where do you put the number of attention seekers?

Amazing that anyone can be so dismissive of so many peoples lived experiences that they confidently refer to only 1% of them being genuine.

99% liars. Righty-o.

midlandsmissus

Me and my female friends have long said amongst us that everyone of us have been sexually assaulted. I have said this to two of my decent male friends and they were complete oblivious to it happening.

It feels like a great release and relief to finally talk about all the pain we have suffered. There is great power in voices.

Women have long been treated as objects with no one caring about their thoughts feelings or emotions. You can argue this point, but look at all the victim blaming in Ireland alone, a queue of men shaking a sexual assaulter's hand in court, very few rape convictions, many women suffering.
Who cared, noone.
The men that didn't actually commit sexual assault, what did you do to help us while we were all suffering. What did you do? Women have been treated like **** for decades. You know this .

Heres Johnny

#not me.

I was so ugly as a child I was never considered worthy of molestation. Huge blow to my self esteem.

Could I sue for this?

Permabear

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silverharp

Heres Johnny wrote: »

#not me.

I was so ugly as a child I was never considered worthy of molestation. Huge blow to my self esteem.

Could I sue for this?

there was a bussfeed article by a feminist complaining he only went after a certain type of woman, he wasnt inclusive :rolleyes:

Permabear

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Christy42

Permabear wrote: »

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Someone else said it. I was curious where you stand. You are still calling a large proportion of these people liars with 0 evidence (well sorry a tweet:p). The stance is entirely illogical, it is a complete assumption.

Is that what you want. People to come forward with their stories and be dismissed as liars? Why would any woman come forward if most will simply be dismissed as liars right off the bat?

I did not say you did not consider sexual assault a serious crime but you are dismissing a large proportion of the women using the hashtag as liars.

kylith

Permabear wrote: »

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So, one of your daughters comes home and says that she's upset and annoyed because some creep on the bus spent the whole journey staring at her breasts. What do you say to her?

Outlaw Pete

Permabear wrote: »

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That's exactly the kind of nonsense I was referring to and 99% of the what I have seen has been in a similar vein. Some of it even more trivial. Sure we even had the whole nonsense about how withholding sexual harassment is actually sexual harassment.

Anyway, I think this puts the whole #metoo nonsense well:

Beware the Rape Allegation Bandwagon

"#MeToo" is the social media meme of the moment. In a 24-hour period, the phrase was tweeted nearly a half million times and posted on Facebook 12 million times. Spearheaded by actress Alyssa Milano in the wake of Hollyweird's Harvey Weinstein sexual harassment scandal, women have flooded social media with their own long-buried accounts of being pestered, groped or assaulted by rapacious male predators in the workplace.

Count me out.

It's one thing to break down cultural stigmas constructively, but the #MeToo movement is collectivist virtue signaling of a very perilous sort. The New York Times heralded the phenomenon with multiple articles "to show how commonplace sexual assault and harassment are." The Washington Post credited #MeToo with making "the scale of sexual abuse go viral." And actress Emily Ratajkowski declared at a Marie Claire magazine's women's conference on Monday:

"The most important response to #metoo is 'I believe you.'"

No. I do not believe every woman who is now standing up to "share her story" or "tell her truth." I owe no blind allegiance to any other woman simply because we share the same pronoun. Assertions are not truths until they are established as facts and corroborated with evidence. Timing, context, motives and manner all matter.

Because I reserve the right to vet the claims of individual sexual assault complainants instead of championing them all knee-jerk and wholesale as "victims," I've been scolded as insensitive and inhumane.

"TIMING DOES NOT MATTER," a Twitter user named Meg Yarbrough fumed. "What matters is what is best for EACH INDIVIDUAL victim. You should be ashamed of yourself."

CNN anchor Jake Tapper informed me, "People coming forward should be applauded." But applauding people for "coming forward" is not a journalistic tenet. It's an advocacy tenet. Tapper responded that he was expressing the sentiment as a "human being not as a journalist." Last time I checked, humans have brains. The Weinstein scandal is not an excuse to turn them off and abdicate a basic responsibility to assess the credibility of accusers. It's an incontrovertible fact that not all accusers' claims are equal.

Some number of harrowing encounters described by Weinstein's accusers and the #MeToo hashtag activists no doubt occurred. But experience and scientific literature show us that a significant portion of these allegations will turn out to be half-truths, exaggerations or outright fabrications. That's not victim-blaming. It's reality-checking.

It is irresponsible for news outlets to extrapolate how "commonplace" sexual abuse is based on hashtag trends spread by celebrities, anonymous claimants and bots. The role of the press should be verification, not validation. Instead of interviewing activist actresses, reporters should be interviewing bona fide experts.

Brent Turvey, a forensic scientist and criminal profiler who heads the Forensic Criminology Institute, is author or co-author of 16 criminal justice books, including textbooks on rape investigation, crime reconstruction, behavioral evidence analysis and forensic victimology.

Turvey's most recent book, written with retired NYPD special victim squad detective John Savino and Mexico-based forensic psychologist Aurelio Coronado Mares, is "False Allegations: Investigative and Forensic Issues in Fraudulent Reports of Crime."

Based on their review of decades of scientific literature, Turvey and his colleagues explode the "2 percent myth" peddled by politicians, victims' advocates and journalists "claiming that the nationwide false report rate for rape and sexual assault is nonexistent." In fact, the statistic was traced to an unverified citation in a 1975 book by feminist author Susan Brownmiller.

"This figure is not only inaccurate," Turvey and his co-authors conclude, "but also it has no basis in reality."

Published research has documented false rape and sexual assault rates ranging from 8 percent to 41 percent. Savino notes that in his NYPD's Manhattan Special Victim Squad, "our false report rate was in the double digits during all of my years. Sometimes, it was as high as 40 percent." Turvey, Savino, and Mares make clear to students that based on the evidence — as opposed to Facebook trends:

"False reports happen; they are recurrent; and there are laws in place to deal with them when they do. They are, for lack of a better word, common."

They are common because people lie for all sorts of reasons — from the need for attention to the lure of profit, out of anger or revenge, to conceal crimes or illicit activity, or because of addictions or mental health issues. Unlike activists or advocates "steeped in bias, denial or self-interest," Turvey and his colleagues teach criminal investigators and students that true professionals "do not seek confirmation of beliefs or ideas: they seek eradication of false theories. All reports of crime must be investigated. Otherwise, they are merely unconfirmed allegations that the ignorant or lazy may pass along as truth."

Rape is a devastating crime. So is lying about it. Ignorant advocates and lazy journalists can be as dangerous as derelict detectives and prosecutors driven by political agendas instead of facts.

When #MeToo bandwagons form in the midst of a panic, innocent people get run over.

Permabear

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Permabear

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One eyed Jack

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Me and my female friends have long said amongst us that everyone of us have been sexually assaulted. I have said this to two of my decent male friends and they were complete oblivious to it happening.

It feels like a great release and relief to finally talk about all the pain we have suffered. There is great power in voices.

Women have long been treated as objects with no one caring about their thoughts feelings or emotions. You can argue this point, but look at all the victim blaming in Ireland alone, a queue of men shaking a sexual assaulter's hand in court, very few rape convictions, many women suffering.
Who cared, noone.
The men that didn't actually commit sexual assault, what did you do to help us while we were all suffering. What did you do? Women have been treated like **** for decades. You know this .

Your two decent male friends don't appear to have known about it? In fact, by your own admission they appeared to be completely oblivious! So everyone else knew, and everyone else is responsible for the historic mistreatment of women... except your two decent male friends who were completely oblivious to it. Bit convenient that really, isn't it?

I have no inclination to argue your point that women have been treated as objects with no-one caring about their thoughts, feelings or emotions, because again by your own admission, all your female friends have long since said among yourselves that every one of you has been sexually assaulted, and it feels like a great release to talk about all the pain you all have suffered, so on some level you must all care about each other surely?

The fact that you aren't aware of the work that men do and have done and continue to do and will do into the future to respect and protect women is only a testament to how oblivious you are to the work men do. Unlike you and your friends however (even the decent oblivious men!), I'm not aware of anyone among my friends both male and female who expects any praise for what they do. While you're all gathered round basking in the ambience of your echo chamber, other people are creating a world where you and your friends actually share the luxury of thinking you're making a difference in the world with your narcissistic ego massaging efforts.

ressem

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It feels like a great release and relief to finally talk about all the pain we have suffered. There is great power in voices.

The men that didn't actually commit sexual assault, what did you do to help us while we were all suffering. What did you do? Women have been treated like **** for decades. You know this .

When you're talking about the pub / nightclub scenario...

The men probably behave in either a "not-my-problem" or "take-my-lead-from-the-behaviour-of the-crowd" manner, as do other women.

As you say, there's power in voices and group standards so if sufficient women decide that the behaviour is beyond acceptable and yell, they will be backed up by other women and men.

When you are talking about the family abuse scenario, people can be even more paralyzed by hypothetical knock-on consequences and mind games.

mzungu

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Me and my female friends have long said amongst us that everyone of us have been sexually assaulted. I have said this to two of my decent male friends and they were complete oblivious to it happening.

Did all the assaults take place in front of these two friends?

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It feels like a great release and relief to finally talk about all the pain we have suffered. There is great power in voices.

Fair enough.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Women have long been treated as objects with no one caring about their thoughts feelings or emotions.

Historically speaking, that could be said about a large chunk of the population, bar the privileged few at the top. However, today, there is a massive emphasis (in the media and other places) on good health for women. This appears to be paying off. To give one example they are now more likely to score higher in school and go to college etc.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

You can argue this point, but look at all the victim blaming in Ireland alone, a queue of men shaking a sexual assaulter's hand in court,

This one crops up time and time again. You could feed half the world with the amount of dining out that has been done on that case. The country was up in arms. The reason this pops up time and time again was because it was so bloody insane.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

very few rape convictions, many women suffering.
Who cared, noone.

Burden of proof is high. Why? Because it is treated as a serious crime. That's why rates are so low.

If you have any suggestions for increasing the conviction rate then I'm all ears.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

The men that didn't actually commit sexual assault, what did you do to help us while we were all suffering. What did you do? Women have been treated like **** for decades. You know this .

Collective responsibility. Really? Then you don't mind if I blame you for the Moors murders while we are at it, do you?

Sexual assault usually (but not always) takes place behind closed doors, with people being none the wiser that anything untoward has taken place. I have no iota of what you expect people to have done about assaults they had no knowledge of.

Christy42

Permabear wrote: »

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So you don't believe that they were sexually assaulted but you also don't think they are lying? Right that makes sense. Where are you getting data on women being fondled in nightclubs against their will btw?

Also safer =/= safe, or should they simply settle for safer?

I saw someone say that all women had been sexually assaulted? I saw someone say all her friends had but I might have missed it.

Edit: After rereading the comment I presume you are referring to you are absolutely misrepresenting that posters claim.