#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Christy42

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You stated that the data says incidents of sexual assaults are decreasing. Is your data incomplete? If so why say it which so much conviction.

I feel like it was a good assumption that you had complete data on sexual assaults and not simply a proportion then. Not making things up. Speaking of, where did someone say all women had been sexually assaulted?

anewme

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think this is so important.

I do believe that most women will have a harassment experience if not many, at some point in their lives. The majority, I'd say all, have experience it from low level to serious.

For me, one of the worst ones was when I was very young, about 14. 3 of us used to walk to the town buy a can of coke and sweets and sit on the wall outside the petrol station with a radio for hours.

One night when we were walking on our travels, a mini bus pulled in. It had a load of guys with sports bags, obviously on the way to football training. They were guys in their mid-late 30's. They called us over. Excuse me girls? Over we shuffle, taking care not to go too close in case we were pulled in. . "Can you tell me the way to Pr*** Lane? I hear it's beside pussy Valley" big laugh and other comments about blow jobs, tits etc.

We were clearly only kids and there was absolutely no need for a group of adults to do that to kids(which is all we were) . I've had a lot of incidents down the years, many much worse and more serious . But for some reason I remember that incident was yesterday.

If I thought anyone I know said the same to kids, Id rip their fckn head off.

Christy42

Christy42 wrote: »

Anything to avoid discussing that there might be a large issue here that people are uncomfortable discussing.

I suspect that most men wouldn't have any problem with women highlighting and discussing this problem if it was based on proven experiences and statistical analysis. Facts rather than opinions.

Is there any suggestion of validating the claims by the metoo contributors?

Surely if this was so widespread, there would be reports, and research papers to support it, since women rights movements/agencies receive quite a bit of funding/support these days? I'm not saying that there isn't a problem. I am saying that men would like to see some evidence of the problem before we all get thrown into the same social category as the weirdos/rapists/etc.

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect that most men wouldn't have any problem with women highlighting and discussing this problem if it was based on proven experiences and statistical analysis. Facts rather than opinions.

Is there any suggestion of validating the claims by the metoo contributors?

Surely if this was so widespread, there would be reports, and research papers to support it, since women rights movements/agencies receive quite a bit of funding/support these days? I'm not saying that there isn't a problem. I am saying that men would like to see some evidence of the problem before we all get thrown into the same social category as the weirdos/rapists/etc.

If you have a good way of recording data then I would be all ears. Do you suggest ignoring it until we figure out a way?

Also nice throwing in the lie that all men are being accused by this campaign at the end.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Christy42

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Again do you have evidence of more minor incidents such simply being felt up by a stranger?

Christy42

Christy42 wrote: »

If you have a good way of recording data then I would be all ears. Do you suggest ignoring it until we figure out a way?

You missed my point. I'm not seeking to ignore anything. I'm suggesting that proof be provided to show the validity of these claims.

Also a way to determine when these claims occurred, where they occurred, etc. A statistical analysis. Instead, you have women posting metoo about something that might have happened 40 years ago. Or five minutes ago. Or in Ireland, Britain, or Spain. There is no way to tell.

You want things to improve. I want things to improve. A genuine effort to gather and use the data would be far more productive for that positive change.

Also nice throwing in the lie that all men are being accused by this campaign at the end.

It's not a campaign highlighting sexual harassment by lesbians, transgenders, etc. It's a campaign that focuses on men. no?

lukesmom

Is staring at a womans breasts sexual assault though? No it's not. It's recognising that someone's breasts look good. Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with that?

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

You missed my point. I'm not seeking to ignore anything. I'm suggesting that proof be provided to show the validity of these claims.

Also a way to determine when these claims occurred, where they occurred, etc. A statistical analysis. Instead, you have women posting metoo about something that might have happened 40 years ago. Or five minutes ago. Or in Ireland, Britain, or Spain. There is no way to tell.

You want things to improve. I want things to improve. A genuine effort to gather and use the data would be far more productive for that positive change.



It's not a campaign highlighting sexual harassment by lesbians, transgenders, etc. It's a campaign that focuses on men. no?

You have changed from your claim that all men were being blamed. Sure men are most frequently the perps in these incidents but certainly I have no one suggest it is all men.

A full on study of the incidents by severity and time might be interesting actually. Decent idea, this was a decentralised campaign but it could well lead to something more as you suggest.

fullstop

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Women have long been treated as objects with no one caring about their thoughts feelings or emotions. You can argue this point, but look at all the victim blaming in Ireland alone, a queue of men shaking a sexual assaulter's hand in court, very few rape convictions, many women suffering.
Who cared, noone.
The men that didn't actually commit sexual assault, what did you do to help us while we were all suffering. What did you do? Women have been treated like **** for decades. You know this .

**** me are you still beating this drum :rolleyes: Didn't realise it was my fault someone was mean to you. Where were you when random women used to grope me crowded nightclubs? What did you do? Nothing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

kylith

lukesmom wrote: »

Is staring at a womans breasts sexual assault though? No it's not. It's recognising that someone's breasts look good. Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with that?

There's noticing that someone has breasts and there's staring at them like she's a piece of meat there solely for your enjoyment.

anewme

lukesmom wrote: »

Is staring at a womans breasts sexual assault though? No it's not. It's recognising that someone's breasts look good. Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with that?

If you were sitting in a meeting in work and someone was deliberately staring at your boobs, I can see how something like this could be used as an intimidation and undermining tactic.

I mentioned on an earlier page that we had used to have a guy in work who stared at people's boobs and followed them across the room, his head literally bobbing up and down in time with their bouncing. He was a bit harmless and that's all there was to him, but it could be very annoying though.

I used him as a kind of barometer. When I put on weight, it goes straight on my boobs. If I saw the diddy watcher perk up like a meercat when I came into the room, I just thought ****, better hit the gym. It's time to lose weight.

Christy42

Christy42 wrote: »

You have changed from your claim that all men were being blamed. Sure men are most frequently the perps in these incidents but certainly I have no one suggest it is all men.

Nope. I havent changed from that perspective. The posts here show that use of "men". Not some men, a few men... "men". there's very little in the way of trying to accuse a minority of men as being guilty. Instead, it's a widespread problem.

A full on study of the incidents by severity and time might be interesting actually. Decent idea, this was a decentralised campaign but it could well lead to something more as you suggest.

Then, I wouldn't have any objection to it. I just don't like being lumped in with a minority group that behaves in an awful manner, and I also recognize that some women will exaggerate the offense of some behavior they didn't appreciate.

It's like this. Feminists and SJW's have lost a lot of credibility because there's no hard data to support many of their claims. Instead, it's vague accusations which do nothing to truly support the need for change, and generally just seek to insult men.

Most men I've met in my life have behaved politely towards women. I've rarely seen the behavior described in this thread as being commonplace (outside of very dodgy bars). So, from my perspective, I would need to see some evidence/research to show that the problem is so widespread, rather than the accusations that have appeared with the metoo action. I suspect such behavior is more common with other cultural/economic groups that I don't associate with, but I have nothing to prove that. Hence my desire for actual evidence of such behavior.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

There's noticing that someone has breasts and there's staring at them like she's a piece of meat there solely for your enjoyment.

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

up for anything

atticu wrote: »

Come back to me when you have lived in a patriarchal society, and we can discuss things in a more informed way.

I can't believe that you replied like that to my post. You're too too much. :pac::pac:

up for anything

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

1950s called and want you back. 'Dress sexy'. Seriously, get out of here! :eek::rolleyes:

Wear a coat! FFS!

anewme

up for anything wrote: »

1950s called and want you back. 'Dress sexy'. Seriously, get out of here! :eek::rolleyes:

Wear a coat! FFS!

Stop that made me laugh!

Maybe we should all wear a Burqua?

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

If you're going to rudely stare then people are going to think you're an ass. Would you like all women to wear sacks so that their physiology doesn't distract you?

Women's breasts are not made of some magnetic substance that draws eyeballs or some kind of magic that makes you unable to look away. Stop blaming women for your rudeness.

Widdershins

If it helps some people, that's fine. What isn't fine is that is was meant for women. Male victims of abuse are excluded.Women defend it by saying women face abuse harassment and danger on a daily basis.


I've seen some dubious stuff by a woman claiming she was catcalled by around forty men in one hour in Amsterdam. She posted photos posing with them smiling. They obviously have no idea why, which makes me wonder would they go along with it if they knew what they were accused of? Or if they actually did it? Seems suspicious.

Outlaw Pete

anewme wrote: »

Maybe we should all wear a Burqua?

Ah in fairness I think what klaz was trying to say was...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-1kHxsavI

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

It will be clear what womens' opinions will be on this

but can I ask what other men feel about this opinion.?

If a friend or colleague expressed these views, what would you say?

I think it's very relevant to the whole argument.

Wibbs

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes, but because you are encumbered by external gonads this doesn't carry much weight.

What I object to is expanding the definition of "sexual assault" to encompass any instance where a woman "feels uncomfortable." As just one example:

https://twitter.com/sarahbutler1981/status/921283042580328448

Staring at someone's breasts might be rude, but it is not sexual assault. All of this #MeToo bandwagoning does genuine victims no favors at all.

Nail meet head. But increasingly opinions and emotions make facts more irrelevant. Classic line from one of the tweets: You wouldn't understand, must be male. Perfect example of the adolescent polarising fcukwittery we're dealing with more and more.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Women have long been treated as objects with no one caring about their thoughts feelings or emotions. You can argue this point,

I would but it would be like a broken pencil; pointless. The current victim narrative is too strong.

but look at all the victim blaming in Ireland alone, a queue of men shaking a sexual assaulter's hand in court,

One case, 40 men, the rest of the society, literally millions of men and women were rightfully up in arms about it. If it had only gotten a paragraph in the back pages you would have a point, but it didn't and you don't.

The men that didn't actually commit sexual assault, what did you do to help us while we were all suffering. What did you do?

In two cases that I won't expand on(and they weren't "some guy ogled my tits) I helped. Because I knew about them up close. Women in general. I dunno how many times this has to be said, but men aren't psychic. Nor should we have to be.

Actually, that leads to another angle. Women as a general rule are much more likely to expect to be helped and supported by society. And they plainly are(and get pissed off when they're not accommodated). Men as a general rule are much more "on their own", seen as and seeing themselves as independent entities with more agency and responsibility. And again society provably treats them that way. On damned near every level. As does current "feminism" which is the joke. Ever wonder these days why the male suicide rate across all ages and demographics is much higher than the female? When I hear of some women going on about how they're so independent and didn't look for that much help and pulled themselves up to where they are today, I usually think and often point out; Really? That's how most men have to deal with life.

Women have been treated like **** for decades. You know this .

Actually I would argue that too. Today? Women are about the most protected and supported demographics in western society. And this is provable with facts. I know both words tend to get some twitchy.

Permabear wrote: »

So you're extrapolating from that extremely small sample size to propose that all Irish women have been sexually assaulted?

Again, all women have suffered sexual assault? Complete nonsense.

That is most certainly the position being promoted and has been for a while. This Harvey Wankerstein case has really put the shoulder to the wheel on it.

There were certainly periods when Ireland did not cover itself in glory with its treatment of women, but things have changed dramatically in recent decades, which you don't seem prepared to acknowledge.

Well, of course. That would go against the catechism of woman is always the victim, it's always men's fault. Even when as I said it's provable that women are about the most protected and supported demographic in western society

mzungu wrote: »

This one crops up time and time again. You could feed half the world with the amount of dining out that has been done on that case. The country was up in arms. The reason this pops up time and time again was because it was so bloody insane.

Exactly.

Burden of proof is high. Why? Because it is treated as a serious crime. That's why rates are so low.

If you have any suggestions for increasing the conviction rate then I'm all ears.

I would imagine the first thing to go would be the burden of proof. Always believe Women™. As if women are a hive mind, a consistent "thing" and somehow magically different because of their gender and not actual living breathing individuals with personal strengths and foibles. Y'know, people. Irony again.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

brooke 2

lukesmom wrote: »

Is staring at a womans breasts sexual assault though? No it's not. It's recognising that someone's breasts look good. Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with that?

When I see posts like this, I only wish that every man could become a woman for at least one month during their most attractive years! You need to experience what it is like from the woman's view to have a man ogle her breasts. Believe it or not, it is not always pleasurable. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! :mad:

brooke 2

lukesmom wrote: »

Is staring at a womans breasts sexual assault though? No it's not. It's recognising that someone's breasts look good. Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with that?

When I see posts like this, I only wish that every man could become a woman for at least one month during their most attractive years! You need to experience what it is like from the woman's view to have a man ogle her breasts. Believe it or not, it is not always pleasurable. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! Ugh!! :mad:

retro:electro

brooke 2 wrote: »

When I see posts like this, I only wish that every man could become a woman for at least one month during their most attractive years! You need to experience what it is like from the woman's view to have a man ogle her breasts. Believe it or not, it is not always pleasurable. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! Ugh!! :mad:

That poster is a woman

Icemancometh

brooke 2 wrote: »

When I see posts like this, I only wish that every man could become a woman for at least one month during their most attractive years! You need to experience what it is like from the woman's view to have a man ogle her breasts. Believe it or not, it is not always pleasurable. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! Ugh!! :mad:

If only it could be a drooling Brad Pitt! That'd be grand, right!!

up for anything

up for anything wrote: »

1950s called and want you back. 'Dress sexy'. Seriously, get out of here! :eek::rolleyes:

Wear a coat! FFS!

It's October, windy and rainy. A coat seemed reasonable.

As for dress sexy, what's a better way of describing wearing clothes designed to make you more physically attractive?

anewme wrote: »

Stop that made me laugh!

Maybe we should all wear a Burqua?

kylith wrote: »

If you're going to rudely stare then people are going to think you're an ass. Would you like all women to wear sacks so that their physiology doesn't distract you?

It's funny. You really don't think your clothing affects the manner in which men will behave around you?

Women's breasts are not made of some magnetic substance that draws eyeballs or some kind of magic that makes you unable to look away. Stop blaming women for your rudeness.

My rudeness? there's a leap.

It's not about blame. It's about accepting some degree of responsibility for your own appearance. Instead, you think a woman can wear whatever she wishes, and if it attracts the wrong sort of attention, it's never her responsibility. Always playing the victim.

Men are responsible for their own behavior. They shouldn't be staring at any part of a woman. It's rude. At the same time though, if a woman dresses in a provocative manner, she will receive attention and she is partially responsible for that attention. Dress more carefully if you don't want that kind of attention.

anewme

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

In relation to the post above, should women wear a coat to avoid their breasts appearing as showpieces?

brooke 2

kylith wrote: »

There's noticing that someone has breasts and there's staring at them like she's a piece of meat there solely for your enjoyment.

+100.

Some guys can only see the situation from one side. As I said already, they would need to spend at least a month as a woman!!

Wibbs

anewme wrote: »

It will be clear what womens' opinions will be on this

but can I ask what other men feel about this opinion.?

If a friend or colleague expressed these views, what would you say?

I think it's very relevant to the whole argument.

Great question A. Personally speaking? Nobody and I mean Nobody, man or woman should be harassed and most certainly not assaulted because of how they dress. However, if anyone, man or woman is given more attention because of how they dress(or act), that kinda goes with the territory. If I walked into a bar in Barcelona tonight wearing a Spanish flag Tee shirt that had the words Madrid forever, if anyone attacked me they would be dickheads, but I would have been unwise.

Many moons ago I knew a few gym types. Mad into their lifting weights and such. One guy was a monster and a roided one at that. Looked like Arnie on a good day. He was wearing a spray on white tee, where you could damn near see the bulging veins on his many muscles. He got off on that as did the women(and a couple of men) who dug that sorta thing in the group. And fair enough. Later on in the evening he complained about some woman at the bar who admired and got a bit handsie over his pecs. Was she a tool? Yes. Was he a bit thick to not see why he might have attracted such a tool? Equally yes.

On the other hand I do think that where does one draw the line. I mean pensioners have been raped often enough. But I would generally think rapists are another group of mental cases. Those who react to attention grabbing dress are a different breed as a general rule.

meeeeh

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Would it?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/garda-crime-statistics-yet-another-test-of-credibility-1.2983903%3fmode=amp

I had quite a bit of hassle by random men and a lot worse type than night club groping that men like to mention whenever violence against women is mentioned. I didn't participate in the #metoo but I think it's about time this stuff is pointed out and stops being tolerate.

Women who dare to mention that they were mistreated are labelled attention seekers, hysterical or something similar. At the same time we have to listen to pathetic wailing from some how this is attack on men.

anewme

Icemancometh wrote: »

If only it could be a drooling Brad Pitt! That'd be grand, right!!

Now we are getting to the crux of it.

This attitude to me is what is dangerous and excuses and supports harassment of women.

I would hope the majority of Good guys, to be fair which we have seen on this thread, would not support this crap.

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ah in fairness I think what klaz was trying to say was...

Spot on

Icemancometh

anewme wrote: »

Now we are getting to the crux of it.

This attitude to me is what is dangerous and excuses and supports harassment of women.

I would hope the majority of God guys, to be fair which we have seen on this thread, would not support this crap.

Support what? I responded to someone else raising the attractiveness of the harasser. I would have thought my excessive use of ! would have pointed to my insincerity.

Wibbs

Icemancometh wrote: »

If only it could be a drooling Brad Pitt! That'd be grand, right!!

That's a common notion, but mostly a fallacious one IMHO. And it is hard for most men to see that difference. I mean if you're grabbed by the man jewels by some granny on a hen do that's gross, but if she was a babe, it would be more likely "well helllllooo". I would agree that women in general do feel more socially vulnerable. Physically too. I mean, let's face it, as a man neither the "granny" nor the "babe" can exactly pull you into a dark corner and feel you up without your say so. There is a marked difference there.

anewme

Icemancometh wrote: »

Support what? I responded to someone else raising the attractiveness of the harasser.

But the attractiveness of the harasser is irrelevant.

Harassment is harassment.

Icemancometh

anewme wrote: »

But the attractiveness of the harasser is irrelevant.

Harassment is harassment.

I agree. Someone else brought it up, why don't you bring it up with them.

brooke 2

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

FFS! How about men just having the cop on to exert enough self control not to ogle women. Perhaps the burka is needed to remove temptation from poor helpless men!!

Wibbs

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-1kHxsavI

He does make a point. To a point. That said TBH I have a lot of affection for Dave, so am likely biased.

brooke 2

up for anything wrote: »

1950s called and want you back. 'Dress sexy'. Seriously, get out of here! :eek::rolleyes:

Wear a coat! FFS!

Or the burka!! :mad:

Sonics2k

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

And you've got the responsibility and basic common sense to not blatantly oggle strangers.

brooke 2

kylith wrote: »

If you're going to rudely stare then people are going to think you're an ass. Would you like all women to wear sacks so that their physiology doesn't distract you?

Women's breasts are not made of some magnetic substance that draws eyeballs or some kind of magic that makes you unable to look away. Stop blaming women for your rudeness.

Very well said!

Sweetemotion

brooke 2 wrote: »

FFS! How about men just having the cop on to exert enough self control not to ogle women. Perhaps the burka is needed to remove temptation from poor helpless men!!

Have you never looked at an attractive man in the street?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

anewme

Icemancometh wrote: »

I agree. Someone else brought it up, why don't you bring it up with them.

I don't recall attractiveness being mentioned at all until you said it.

A persons personality dictates their attractiveness.

A person immediately becomes ugly and unattractive when they harass someone.

Case in point Did Ben Affleck not get into trouble and have to apologise for groping someone recently?

meeeeh

Now I know why I was groped by a stranger sitting behind me in the cinema when I was 12. I was wearing the wrong bra. Silly me.

Purple Mountain

#MeThree