Article from RTE.ie "Department may target homemakers to meet teacher shortage"

playedalive

So I have just read this article https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2017/1020/913810-school-leaders-conference/, stating that there is a shortage of Secondary teachers in European Languages. However, I was always under the impression that jobs were hard to come by from word on the ground/research. Also, considering how expensive it is to train to become a secondary school teacher, I am currently training as a MFL teacher in the UK. For this reason, I find the whole springboard course idea quite insulting and wonder if this report is genuine. Can they really offer a Springboard course? Sounds like an off the cuff remark. 
Thanks

evolving_doors

It's an insult to say the least.
Let's see what the teaching council have to say about it!
If you're missing a module or two they'd be down on you like a tonne of bricks... and then charge you for the pleasure.
I'd like to see how they assess a springboard course.

Was this bruton's 'build a wall' moment?

Postgrad10

He really shouldn't have mentioned this until he had specific information. Really poor form. There are many homemakers with degrees but they could be all in sociology for all he knows, how many well being teachers do we need? Is he going to provide free childcare places while they do this training ? Is the two year PME going to become defunct as springboard courses are normally two years? What does this mean for people who spent two years and thousands of euro? How is going to create placements for TP when it's already difficult as it is ? Not to mention that people actually choose to be homemakers.

PMBC

Yes I read it on daily paper and it seemed a bit waffly - flying a kite maybe

evolving_doors

PMBC wrote: »

Yes I read it on daily paper and it seemed a bit waffly - flying a kite maybe

Ya I think it's just to try and get a rise out of teachers.
Then you'll have the teacher begrudger brigade saying that the current teachers are too precious/snowflakes etc.

Annnnnd again it'll be diminishing public sentiment towards teachers making teachers less likely to strike.
In fact creating public dissent is what helps a position.... watch and learn to see how the train drivers do things.
Sorry to turn it into a union thing but I doubt Bruton is in any way worried about teacher supply. He'll use it to serve the departments ends.

wirelessdude01

Wonder if this goes ahead could they put these ones on a different payscale again, an even lower one with further erosion of pension rights?

Romantic Rose

From what I see, the government want people going into teaching later in life and retiring older with a much smaller pension. This whole getting into teaching at a young age and retiring relatively young is a thing of the past unless you're prepared to pay a lot of your wages towards another pension.

This is completely a government created scenario. They should have pre-empted that the population was going to shoot up in the last 10 years. But like I said, it suits them to train teachers in a cheap way and at an older age. Privatising teacher training regardless of quality suits them. They just want to wash their hands to save money.

endacl

in the interest of teacher wellbeing I'm deleting that post
Mod

acequion

It's highly insulting and just what you'd expect from the likes of Fine Gael. The article blithely notes at the end that young NQTs are lured abroad by better pay and conditions. Says it all!

The logical thing is to restore the common basic scale and try to hang on to young teachers rather than offer springboard courses for free to older people. But every generation scores of young talent is leaked in this country.

Natural selection the Irish way!

endacl

endacl wrote: »

in the interest of teacher wellbeing I'm deleting that post
Mod

Malayalam

Don't understand why people are outraged. If the homemaker has a degree and has been at home raising family and now due to shortage of staff the government will fund two year masters degree to qualify them to teach what is the problem? They will have done as much academic training as present teachers who also got fees funded when they did their training so the only difference I can see is the 'career gap' spent parenting. What's the problem?

PowerToWait

Malayalam wrote: »

Don't understand why people are outraged. What's the problem?

About 12 grand I'd say.

r93kaey5p2izun

Malayalam wrote: »

Don't understand why people are outraged. If the homemaker has a degree and has been at home raising family and now due to shortage of staff the government will fund two year masters degree to qualify them to teach what is the problem? They will have done as much academic training as present teachers who also got fees funded when they did their training so the only difference I can see is the 'career gap' spent parenting. What's the problem?

Very few have fees funded for 2nd Level training. Normal SUSI rules apply. It's €12k.

There is also no shortage of people paying the €12k to qualify - hundreds do so every year (possibly over a thousand I'd say).

evolving_doors

Malayalam wrote: »

Don't understand why people are outraged. If the homemaker has a degree and has been at home raising family and now due to shortage of staff the government will fund two year masters degree to qualify them to teach what is the problem? They will have done as much academic training as present teachers who also got fees funded when they did their training so the only difference I can see is the 'career gap' spent parenting. What's the problem?

I think it's being touted as a year long 'fastrack'.

evolving_doors

Brett Purple Union wrote: »

Very few have fees funded for 2nd Level training. Normal SUSI rules apply. It's €12k.

There is also no shortage of people paying the €12k to qualify - hundreds do so every year (possibly over a thousand I'd say).

I think though the minister is planning -on the back of an envelope- to just focus on particular in-demand subjects.
Although yes if it were just 1 year, you could imagine the ire of someone who's starting into a 2 year program and forked out the 12-15k.

In fairness it's not as if he couldn't see it coming.
The population increase was touted about 8 years ago.

r93kaey5p2izun

Actually I read today that clarification had been given that in this case the Springboard would just be free fees for people to do the regular PME. I am glad to hear the Minister isn't planning on providing a mickey mouse shortcut shortly after having doubled the duration and cost of training.

But I have a massive issue if that funding is only available to long term unemployed or homemakers or any other limited pool. If free funding is to be offered to those with in demand subject qualifications then I feel it has to be available to all such applicants.

I still think the Minister is deluded and out of touch if he thinks this will solve the problem. The same draws away from teaching will be there for these funded graduates and I expect they will leave for better opportunities like so many who have paid the fees themselves. I also think he underestimates, or perhaps more likely hasn't the first clue about, the fact that the TC requirements for these particular subjects seem to be particularly tricky to satisfy and huge numbers with STEM and language degrees need additional modules to actually register. Will he fund these too?

man_no_plan

Interestingly DCU are planning a 4year concurrent teaching degree for general subjects.

We can only hope that the lack of a 12 grand bill will attract candidates.

Languageteach

I wonder how many of these MFL qualified homemakers want to be teachers? I spent almost a decade teaching languages in Irish secondary schools. I am well-qualified and have also spent time living in Europe where I further developed my language skills. I decided to leave teaching a few years back because I was tired- tired of scrambling for hours, tired of praying for a CID, tired of the never ending orals after school, tired of teaching higher and ordinary levels in the one class and very tired of stealthy cuts to take home pay and diminishing conditions. I researched other professions and realised just how valuable language skills are! As it turned out an opportunity arose abroad and I teach MFL in an international school. My take home pay is over double, rent, health insurance, pension bonus and flights are paid. My class sizes are small, I have a language assistant for both languages and the curriculum is not being destroyed like the new Junior Cert. I have access to expensive subscription websites, a language lab and so much more. Free school places, flights,meals and transport for children. Best of all MFL is valued here- there is also a STEM and MFL teacher shortage here and that it very much reflected in my end of year bonus. They want us to stay and treat us well. 
I will return to Ireland on the coming years but I will not be using my language degree and experience in teaching for peanuts. Maybe the Minister should be wondering why people with valuable degrees don't want to spend them working as teachers for inferior pay and conditions.

2011abc

Above post says it all really .

Macmillan150

2011abc wrote: »

Above post says it all really .

It's a tough one. I always wanted to be a teacher but as I didn't qualify for the grant at the time I couldn't afford to do the dip. I now work in another public sector job working long hours. I'm having coffee now trying to wake up enough to drive home after a 14 hour night shift. We have seen the same appalling cuts to terms and conditions. I earn about the same wages as a teacher but my crèche fees in the summer are €3000 after tax so I suppose I could take away €6000 from my basic to compare.
My point is there are many many people who are working who would jump at this chance if available because our terms and conditions are already bad.
I had been trying to save to do the one year dip but it was tough with a family and reduced wages. When they put it up to 2 years pme that was the end of that.

Romantic Rose

Macmillan150 wrote: »

It's a tough one. I always wanted to be a teacher but as I didn't qualify for the grant at the time I couldn't afford to do the dip. I now work in another public sector job working long hours. I'm having coffee now trying to wake up enough to drive home after a 14 hour night shift. We have seen the same appalling cuts to terms and conditions. I earn about the same wages as a teacher but my crèche fees in the summer are €3000 after tax so I suppose I could take away €6000 from my basic to compare.
My point is there are many many people who are working who would jump at this chance if available because our terms and conditions are already bad.
I had been trying to save to do the one year dip but it was tough with a family and reduced wages. When they put it up to 2 years pme that was the end of that.

But here's where I have a problem with people going into teaching later in life. Would you be going into teaching for the absolute love of the job and love of teaching children- to make a positive difference to their life? Or is it to have better working hours and be off when your children are off school?

I worked with a teacher who came from the Postgrad one year. She was nearly 40 starting teaching and she did nothing but give out- about teaching Gaeilge, about teaching special needs children, about teaching some children in the class from DEIS backgrounds. One day I had enough and I just reminded her it was what she signed up for. I know she's not in teaching anymore thankfully!

I would be going into teaching for all the right reasons with my eyes wide open about the profession as it is today.

r93kaey5p2izun

Macmillan150 wrote: »

It's a tough one. I always wanted to be a teacher but as I didn't qualify for the grant at the time I couldn't afford to do the dip. I now work in another public sector job working long hours. I'm having coffee now trying to wake up enough to drive home after a 14 hour night shift. We have seen the same appalling cuts to terms and conditions. I earn about the same wages as a teacher but my crèche fees in the summer are €3000 after tax so I suppose I could take away €6000 from my basic to compare.
My point is there are many many people who are working who would jump at this chance if available because our terms and conditions are already bad.
I had been trying to save to do the one year dip but it was tough with a family and reduced wages. When they put it up to 2 years pme that was the end of that.

And would you be qualifying to teach Irish, MFL, Maths or Physics?

Macmillan150

Well I wanted nothing more than to be a teacher since I was 10 and nothing has changed in that regard. I did maths and physics in my degree and masters. And just because 1 40 year old gives out constantly doesn't mean statistically that all will ( I know statistics too). All jobs come with upsides and downsides. As other teachers here have given out about the salary I was stating that there would be some savings in childcare to make up for salary shortages.
Aren't we all a bit touchy this morning.

CIARAN_BOYLE

To the op there's plenty of jobs available for teachers. The problem is unless you are really lucky or have two subjects that are worthwhile you are unlikely to get anything more than a part time position with low hours. Full time jobs are like gold dust.

In foreign languages especially there are too few teachers with a second subject.

My suggestion to the government would be instead of a spring board course to offer a grant of upto €6,000 tax free for any teacher who needs a few modules to add a subject.

There's plenty of teachers that are few modules away from qualifying in maths and physics that would jump at it.

Not sure it would work as well for Irish and foreign languages but I guarantee it will solve any shortages in the maths and science areas.

peckerhead

Languageteach wrote: »

I teach MFL in an international school. My take home pay is over double, rent, health insurance, pension bonus and flights are paid. My class sizes are small, I have a language assistant for both languages and the curriculum is not being destroyed like the new Junior Cert. I have access to expensive subscription websites, a language lab and so much more. Free school places, flights,meals and transport for children. Best of all MFL is valued here- there is also a STEM and MFL teacher shortage here and that it very much reflected in my end of year bonus. They want us to stay and treat us well.

I'm guessing you're teaching in a private school somewhere in the Middle East? I teach a lot of language teachers and in the past few years I've noticed the smart ones getting out of this country. I'm not surprised there are subject-specific shortages. But in fairness, we're not comparing like with like.

I'm not surprised at FG sniffing around for a cost-saving quick fix solution either. Gombeens.

r93kaey5p2izun

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

To the op there's plenty of jobs available for teachers. The problem is unless you are really lucky or have two subjects that are worthwhile you are unlikely to get anything more than a part time position with low hours. Full time jobs are like gold dust.

In foreign languages especially there are too few teachers with a second subject.

My suggestion to the government would be instead of a spring board course to offer a grant of upto €6,000 tax free for any teacher who needs a few modules to add a subject.

There's plenty of teachers that are few modules away from qualifying in maths and physics that would jump at it.

Not sure it would work as well for Irish and foreign languages but I guarantee it will solve any shortages in the maths and science areas.

To be fair they have already offered a free course to meet TC Maths requirements. Still a shortage though.

r93kaey5p2izun

Macmillan150 wrote: »

Well I wanted nothing more than to be a teacher since I was 10 and nothing has changed in that regard. I did maths and physics in my degree and masters. And just because 1 40 year old gives out constantly doesn't mean statistically that all will ( I know statistics too). All jobs come with upsides and downsides. As other teachers here have given out about the salary I was stating that there would be some savings in childcare to make up for salary shortages.
Aren't we all a bit touchy this morning.

If you have an in demand subject and want to teach then go for it and I hope you can make it work. But I advise caution in jumping in thinking it's going to be an easy fix for your long hours and childcare issues in your current career. If it was so wonderful compared to the alternative options for people with these subject degrees then we most likely wouldn't have the shortage in the first place.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Brett Purple Union wrote: »

To be fair they have already offered a free course to meet TC Maths requirements. Still a shortage though.

Thanks for telling me that. I'm not a teacher though I work with a number of schools for the accounts so I have been in and out of schools recently. One Principal mentioned that they had two vacancies for maths during the summer. One was full time and they filled it easily enough. The other was part time though thry could make it full time if the applicant could tag on any business or science subject. It was hell trying to find someone to fill the role.

r93kaey5p2izun

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Thanks for telling me that. I'm not a teacher though I work with a number of schools for the accounts so I have been in and out of schools recently. One Principal mentioned that they had two vacancies for maths during the summer. One was full time and they filled it easily enough. The other was part time though thry could make it full time if the applicant could tag on any business or science subject. It was hell trying to find someone to fill the role.

I'm surprised at that tbh. There are few pure Maths teachers in my experience - most have a second subject. The course mentioned was aimed at Science/Business teachers teaching maths but not full qualified, which was very common.

Personally, as a Maths and Science teacher I am in the process of leaving teaching. It will be a gradual process and won't really kick in until next year and hopefully I'll be able to keep teaching part time as I don't actually want to leave the classroom. But we'll see. I am definitely hoping to leave my school though but would not apply for a solely Maths position - it would have to be Science too.

Languageteach

peckerhead wrote: »

Languageteach wrote: »

I teach MFL in an international school. My take home pay is over double, rent, health insurance, pension bonus and flights are paid. My class sizes are small, I have a language assistant for both languages and the curriculum is not being destroyed like the new Junior Cert. I have access to expensive subscription websites, a language lab and so much more. Free school places, flights,meals and transport for children. Best of all MFL is valued here- there is also a STEM and MFL teacher shortage here and that it very much reflected in my end of year bonus. They want us to stay and treat us well.

I'm guessing you're teaching in a private school somewhere in the Middle East? I teach a lot of language teachers and in the past few years I've noticed the smart ones getting out of this country. I'm not surprised there are subject-specific shortages. But in fairness, we're not comparing like with like.

I'm not surprised at FG sniffing around for a cost-saving quick fix solution either. Gombeens.[/quote


I teach at a private school. I know it's not fair to compare it to a public school but I was just pointing out that my quality of life has improved so much. I was drained by teaching in Ireland and ready to change career when we decided to move away. Small things like website subscriptions and access to IT facilities make all the difference to my teaching. I still work hard here and have shorter holidays but I very rarely go home drained after a long day performing miracles in an underresourced system for what has become poor pay. Teaching is no longer a respected profession and many teachers are waking up and considering their options. It shouldn't be shocking that language and maths graduates aren't as interested in teaching when they have strong prospects elsewhere.

evolving_doors

Brett Purple Union wrote: »

I'm surprised at that tbh. There are few pure Maths teachers in my experience - most have a second subject. The course mentioned was aimed at Science/Business teachers teaching maths but not full qualified, which was very common.

Personally, as a Maths and Science teacher I am in the process of leaving teaching. It will be a gradual process and won't really kick in until next year and hopefully I'll be able to keep teaching part time as I don't actually want to leave the classroom. But we'll see. I am definitely hoping to leave my school though but would not apply for a solely Maths position - it would have to be Science too.

As an aside... springboard do evening courses for people who are employed too!