Ulster v Leinster Build up thread

Neil3030

My stream was awful - did larmour replace Reid at centre?

awec

Burkie1203 wrote: »

And what happens when the same issues reoccur? Sack Gibbes, blame Nucifora and repeat the process again?

Ulster have went backwards under Kiss. We're worse now than when he joined.

Whether getting rid of him may or may not fix things, he is lucky to still have a job IMO.

ClanofLams

swiwi_ wrote: »

Luke McGrath has really come on in the last 12 months. Clearly a better 9 than JGP and imo better than Marmion. Should have the Irish 21 shirt.

I'm obviously biased and I don't watch as much of McGrath as others on here but he's still a bit unproven at the highest level for me. He's looks very good in games Leinster dominate ie. the majority of their games but isn't as impressive when it's a battle against a quality side. He was pretty average against Montpellier earlier this month if I recall correctly.

ClanofLams

ClanofLams wrote: »

I'm obviously biased and I don't watch as much of McGrath as others on here but he's still a bit unproven at the highest level for me. He's looks very good in games Leinster dominate ie. the majority of their games but isn't as impressive when it's a battle against a quality side. He was pretty average against Montpellier earlier this month if I recall correctly.

Had a fairly complete performance off the bench against England last March...

Burkie1203

awec wrote: »

Ulster have went backwards under Kiss. We're worse now than when he joined.

Whether getting rid of him may or may not fix things, he is lucky to still have a job IMO.

That may or may not be the case. But there is the guts of a decent side there. Missing Jackson is huge but the rest of the backline is very good but they can only do so much from a standing start.

The lack of ball carriers up front is a killer tho.

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

That may or may not be the case. But there is the guts of a decent side there. Missing Jackson is huge but the rest of the backline is very good but they can only do so much from a standing start.

The lack of ball carriers up front is a killer tho.

Deysel going off was a disaster.

Burkie1203

ClanofLams wrote: »

I'm obviously biased and I don't watch as much of McGrath as others on here but he's still a bit unproven at the highest level for me. He's looks very good in games Leinster dominate ie. the majority of their games but isn't as impressive when it's a battle against a quality side. He was pretty average against Montpellier earlier this month if I recall correctly.

Every player will have an off day. Leinster took control when he came on. Better decisions were being made. He has definitely put his name in the conversation. I would have put Marmion ahead of him no question at the start of the season but now there is definitely a competition for the 21 shirt

awec

Burkie1203 wrote: »

That may or may not be the case. But there is the guts of a decent side there. Missing Jackson is huge but the rest of the backline is very good but they can only do so much from a standing start.

The lack of ball carriers up front is a killer tho.

Kiss is bringing nothing to the table.

ClanofLams

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Had a fairly complete performance off the bench against England last March...

He had a good cameo, it was 10/11 minutes. Marmion had a pretty good performance off the bench v Wales and a very good performance starting v England.

It's good to have options but personally couldn't see how McGrath would be ahead of Marmion.

ClanofLams

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Every player will have an off day. Leinster took control when he came on. Better decisions were being made. He has definitely put his name in the conversation. I would have put Marmion ahead of him no question at the start of the season but now there is definitely a competition for the 21 shirt

Fair enough but McGraths off days seem to correspond to tougher opposition, two pool games away in France last season, Montpellier at home this season. It's a pretty small sample size to be fair because he only became first choice nine a year ago.

Former Former

McGrath is playing very well but he's getting the sort of platform that Marmion can only dream of. Marmion should still be ahead IMO.

mfceiling

Following ulster is like watching the girl you fancied in school marrying the local dick head, moving in beside you and their bedroom window having no curtains...and you can see in....and everything he has is bigger and better than yours.

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

Following ulster is like watching the girl you fancied in school marrying the local dick head, moving in beside you and their bedroom window having no curtains...and you can see in....and everything he has is bigger and better than yours.

I'm standing here, looking at you, with my lad in my hand, wanting to degrade.....

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm standing here, looking at you, with my lad in my hand, wanting to degrade.....

Go for it!!

stephen_n

swiwi_ wrote: »

Luke McGrath has really come on in the last 12 months. Clearly a better 9 than JGP and imo better than Marmion. Should have the Irish 21 shirt.

Unfortunately JGP seems to be going in the opposite direction. When he first landed I thought he'd be pushing Luke but at this stage it's McCarthy pushing him.

Burkie1203

stephen_n wrote: »

Unfortunately JGP seems to be going in the opposite direction. When he first landed I thought he'd be pushing Luke but at this stage it's McCarthy pushing him.

Ulster are complaining about needing a 9. Its the least we can do for our northern neighbours

Thought Luke McGrath was exceptional tonight but I also don't thing JGP was bad at all. Had some lovely play during a more challenging period of the game.

Jump_In_Jack

The match wasn't as one-sided as it sounds reading through the posts here.
Both sides made a lot of errors, the second half was very stop-start.
The main difference was the line out, if Ulster had won their own throws the match could have gone the other way.
Individually there were some good moments all round, looking forward to seeing more of Cairns and Larmour, and enjoyed Ah You's few crunching tackles, he should be in the Irish squad, huge man.

P.Walnuts

A word for Porter coming on and holding well as a TH, busy around the park too.....promising

bilston

vienne86 wrote: »

So are Ulster trying to lose this?.

Well I did say yesterday that Kiss had targeted a defeat from the match...so yes...probably...

bilston

awec wrote: »

Burkie1203 wrote: »

That may or may not be the case. But there is the guts of a decent side there. Missing Jackson is huge but the rest of the backline is very good but they can only do so much from a standing start.

The lack of ball carriers up front is a killer tho.

Kiss is bringing nothing to the table.

Realistically we aren't winning any silverware so the key measurement for Kiss is whether we have improved from last season. It's probably still a bit early to tell but to be honest at the moment I'd say we are standing still. Not any worse, but not any better.

Now look there are a few things that need to be said in Kiss's defence. He has had potentially his two most important players (Coetzee and Jackson) taken from him through no fault of his own. I'd also argue that Payne is a huge miss as he is the glue for our backline. Also I don't know that Kiss can be held personally responsible for hookers losing the ability to perform the key function of their job.

That said every team suffers injuries or player unavailability. They just have to deal with it. Some of his selections just baffle me.

Could someone else do a better job with the squad Ulster have than Kiss? And if so could we get them? If we can't get someone better then getting rid of Kiss is pointless.

I'm not quite there yet to call for Kiss to go, but I can't say I see an obvious route out of this hole for him. I'll probably make my mind up on the back of the Quins double header and Christmas Inter Pros.

awec

bilston wrote: »

Realistically we aren't winning any silverware so the key measurement for Kiss is whether we have improved from last season. It's probably still a bit early to tell but to be honest at the moment I'd say we are standing still. Not any worse, but not any better.

Now look there are a few things that need to be said in Kiss's defence. He has had potentially his two most important players (Coetzee and Jackson) taken from him through no fault of his own. I'd also argue that Payne is a huge miss as he is the glue for our backline.

That said every team suffers injuries or player unavailability. They just have to deal with it. Some of his selections just baffle me.

Could someone else do a better job with the squad Ulster have than Kiss? And if so could we get them? If we can't get someone better then getting rid of Kiss is pointless.

I'm not quite there yet to call for Kiss to go, but I can't say I see an obvious route out of this hole for him. I'll probably make my mind up on the back of the Quins double header and Christmas Inter Pros.

At this stage I think we'd be doing well to get to a league semi final.

Ulster have been allowed to rot and it's going to take a long time to fix. Too many crap players who have contracts for another year or two, a lack of talent at schoolboy level, an antiquated schools rugby system that puts all the eggs in the basket of two or three large schools.

Hard to see a way out of this. Kiss, Gibbes and Peel are struggling to even make us hard to beat. We are soft and we lack mental toughness, the same issues that have been there for years. Gibbes and Peel get a pass because they are new, but I don't see any improvement under Kiss' tenure in any part of the team. The squad is probably worse, the systems are worse and the performances are as bad as I can remember.

I don't know where we go from here. It is becoming a serious problem because another mediocre season or two and I suspect some of our better players will be looking for the door themselves.

I don’t think JGP is being given any decent run of games to get a good level of consistency going in fairness to him. He seems to get the occasional start but mostly gets a few minutes from the bench.

Hastentoadd

There really is only one team in Ireland these days. Munster is bish, bosh, Ulster has no pack and Connacht play clueless rugby

The Rape of Lucretia

Hastentoadd wrote: »

There really is only one team in Ireland these days. Munster is bish, bosh, Ulster has no pack and Connacht play clueless rugby

The headbangers, the softheaded, and the headless chickens.

Hastentoadd

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The headbangers, the softheaded, and the headless chickens.

unusual I would agree with you but you are probably right

ClanofLams

It's a pity the ignore function doesn't work when posters are quoted.

.ak

Funny old game. I thought Ulster were the better team for the first 50 but I always felt our pack would settle into the game, guys like SOB, Jordi, Leavy, Tadgh and McGrath still warming up this season. Their class showed in the end, finding an extra gear whilst still huffing and puffing... That break from SOB and Rob Kearney summarised it, SOB had no right to get back onto his shoulder and continue the move. But he pushed through the pain and was the fastest player on the pitch for that moment.

Another funny thing is how on paper Ulster had a far better backline than us, especially when we had to bring Larmour in to 13 pretty much straight away, yet I think our backline functioned far better. In the wide channels we absolutely cut Ulster open, the first try was a bit of individual brilliance from Larmour but getting the ball there was well worked from JGP and Ross Byrne. Then there was the counter attack from our 22 which ended up being butchered by JGP, Dave Kearney almost going over for the try. The lads made 60 meters without a finger being laid on them.

Particular impressed with our back 3 tonight. Rob Kearney stood out, the lines he was running were seriously impressive for a lad coming in from the cold. Couple more games under his belt and he'll be in a good position. Still the best strike runner in Ireland imo when he backs himself in contact. His line for the McGrath try was sublime. Dave Kearney had a good game I felt, the YC was deserved and had he not sacrificed himself it was a clear run to the line for the outside player. Instead we go down to 14, but Ulster kick to touch and we feel safe there because Ulster can't win a lineout all night... We end up winning the yellow card period. Big moment, had Ulster scored instead could've been a different store. Adam Byrne had a solid outing, but I thought it was funny how much effort himself and Stockdale were putting into disrupting each others game, bit of niggle there, too right. Adam Byrne is a giant of a winger, but Stockdale made him look tiny. Twice ripping the ball from Byrne in the air. Stockdale is a serious unit.

In the end Ulster should've won that game, as they should win most of their games lately, but they just seem to fail at the basics; handling, set piece, kicking... Until they sort that out momentum will always shift to the opposition about 50 min.

Former Former

Highlights are up

http://www.tg4.ie/ga/player/baile/?pid=5628451487001&teideal=Rugba%C3%AD%20Beo%20&series=Rugba%C3%AD%20Beo%20&dlft=35

We might think about closing the build-up thread and opening the match thread soon.

.ak

Apologies, it was actually Adam Byrne not Rob Kearney involved in the McGrath try. Lovely line and offload

molloyjh

With regard Kiss and Ulster I think it’s a really hard one to call. You’ve got to look at what is in his power to change and rate how he is doing with that.

Forwards win matches. It’s a cliche, but it’s true far more than not. Today was another example of that. So what do Ulster have to work with in that department? Not a whole hell of a lot. What has Kiss done to address that? Surely bringing in guys like Deysel and Coetzee is exactly the sort of recruitment he should have been doing? Treadwell too was a good acquisition. Is it Kiss’ fault that they can’t stay fit for more than 2 weeks in a row? And what is he left with when they’re not available? If the answer is a pretty average pack then how can Ulster expect to perform to a high level and win the big games? And short of signing 2 top class forwards and a major prospect what else can Kiss do about that?

Behind the scrum Ulster have an excellent back line. And when they get front foot ball they can look exceptionally good. Some of the movement in attack that I’ve seen at times this season has been really, really good. Options for the ball carrier all in sync with each other. That’s the sign of good coaching. We just don’t get to see it enough. Probably because the forwards often struggle to provide that front foot ball and Ulster lack any real depth in the half backs.

Then there’s the selections, which at times can be a bit mind boggling. While you can’t play your best XV every week, and in Ulsters case may need to settle for throwing games here and there, you don’t select anything other than your full strength side going to France in R2 in Europe. This really does call Kiss’ judgement into question. He’s not helped by the fact that we had no idea what kind of a head coach he was going to be as we’ve never seen him in the role before. Is this stuff classic Kiss or totally different to how he was before? We’ve no idea.

At the end of the day I think bilston is about right. Have reservations and concerns, but also give the guy a bit more slack due to the fact that his hands have been badly tied quite consistently since he took over. I don’t think it’s fair to say there haven’t been improvements. There have been, both in the personnel and the way Ulster are trying to play. But the guys on the field are either not up to it or are short on confidence at this stage. The latter of which you can understand. Getting rid of Kiss only makes sense if there’s someone else who can come in and do a better job. But it’s worth remembering that they’ll have the same hand tying to deal with that Kiss has at present.

Dog Botherer

How did Leavy go? Was surprised to see he played, heard he was injured.

swiwi_

ClanofLams wrote: »

I'm obviously biased and I don't watch as much of McGrath as others on here but he's still a bit unproven at the highest level for me. He's looks very good in games Leinster dominate ie. the majority of their games but isn't as impressive when it's a battle against a quality side. He was pretty average against Montpellier earlier this month if I recall correctly.

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impr0v

molloyjh wrote: »

With regard Kiss and Ulster I think it’s a really hard one to call. You’ve got to look at what is in his power to change and rate how he is doing with that.

Forwards win matches. It’s a cliche, but it’s true far more than not. Today was another example of that. So what do Ulster have to work with in that department? Not a whole hell of a lot. What has Kiss done to address that? Surely bringing in guys like Deysel and Coetzee is exactly the sort of recruitment he should have been doing? Treadwell too was a good acquisition. Is it Kiss’ fault that they can’t stay fit for more than 2 weeks in a row? And what is he left with when they’re not available? If the answer is a pretty average pack then how can Ulster expect to perform to a high level and win the big games? And short of signing 2 top class forwards and a major prospect what else can Kiss do about that?

Behind the scrum Ulster have an excellent back line. And when they get front foot ball they can look exceptionally good. Some of the movement in attack that I’ve seen at times this season has been really, really good. Options for the ball carrier all in sync with each other. That’s the sign of good coaching. We just don’t get to see it enough. Probably because the forwards often struggle to provide that front foot ball and Ulster lack any real depth in the half backs.

Then there’s the selections, which at times can be a bit mind boggling. While you can’t play your best XV every week, and in Ulsters case may need to settle for throwing games here and there, you don’t select anything other than your full strength side going to France in R2 in Europe. This really does call Kiss’ judgement into question. He’s not helped by the fact that we had no idea what kind of a head coach he was going to be as we’ve never seen him in the role before. Is this stuff classic Kiss or totally different to how he was before? We’ve no idea.

At the end of the day I think bilston is about right. Have reservations and concerns, but also give the guy a bit more slack due to the fact that his hands have been badly tied quite consistently since he took over. I don’t think it’s fair to say there haven’t been improvements. There have been, both in the personnel and the way Ulster are trying to play. But the guys on the field are either not up to it or are short on confidence at this stage. The latter of which you can understand. Getting rid of Kiss only makes sense if there’s someone else who can come in and do a better job. But it’s worth remembering that they’ll have the same hand tying to deal with that Kiss has at present.

It's worth mentioning the loss of Jackson too. Lealiifano's been a very good stopgap to be fair to him, but Jackson is a very important player for Ulster and his (and Olding's) circumstances can't exactly be settling for the team. Also something that's totally outside of Kiss's control.

On Leinster: Healy deserves a mention. Follows his two tries against Glasgow by coming on here, stabilising the scrum and putting in a decent shift otherwise. Good signs.