How has the 8th amendment affected your care?

lashes34

Actually this has reminded me, when I was in for one of many scans in the EPU I asked about Harmony Testing, christ you'd swear I asked for an abortion.

She got so thick, why would you do that when you cant do anything about it. Or what are you planning if the results aren't good?

I just said its not about what I would do but just to be prepared. Her personal beliefs shouldn't have come into it, she should have just given me the information requested about a legal test and nothing more.

Its frustrating.

pwurple

January wrote: »

how can a doctor tell that a pregnancy is high risk unless they do an anomaly scan!

Pregnancy risk hasn't a whole lot to do with the scan. It's about the health of the woman primarily. Medical history, previous pregnancy history etc. Blood pressure, diabetes, HIV, PCOS,fertility medications, age. A scan has an impact on the risk assessment for confirming multiples...

Lux23

Not a pregnancy but I was refused a scan because it was less than ten days to my next period and the scan could have forced me to have a miscarriage. A nurse told me I should have said I was on my period at the time and it wouldn't have been a wasted journey.

January

pwurple wrote: »

Pregnancy risk hasn't a whole lot to do with the scan. It's about the health of the woman primarily. Medical history, previous pregnancy history etc. Blood pressure, diabetes, HIV, PCOS,fertility medications, age. A scan has an impact on the risk assessment for confirming multiples...

I understand this but a pregnancy can also be made high risk if there are problems with the fetus and the if the fetus is unwell or has an abnormality that can and does make the pregnant person unwell also.

Every pregnant person should have an anomaly scan in my opinion.

missjuly

Toastytoes wrote: »

That is a world away from the level of care you could expect if you ended up in UCHG in the same situation. You would have been sent home without a scan.

I know it's a disgrace the different policies and services in different hospitals.
Shesty you mention you're lucky the Rotunda is your local well it was mine when I had my first 3 years ago. It was like 7km away was great having the community midwifes come visit after c section. But now I'm about 80km away and there is a hospital closer but wouldn't go near it. As a public patient I'd only get one scan the there. My sister went private there and we would both agree the level of care I received in the Rotunda as a public patient was better than she did as a private patient. She also had complications placenta previa and a big bleed also was having mild contractions. They wanted to transfer her to the Rotunda.....despite the 3000 grand or so she had paid for her private consultant to treat her...anyway she would have been happy to go but she heard them on the phone the rotunda said too much risk to transfer her she needs to be sectioned today.....so yeah they then section her 3 days later!

lazygal

On my first pregnancy there were complications found at the 20 week anatomy scan, then again at the 34 week scan. I had a section at 39 weeks and would have had an emergency section before then if anything had happened. If I'd gone into labour and things had progressed quickly it's possible neither me nor my daughter would be here.
I know many women who are told the scans are not provided because "you can't do anything anyway" which I think is a combination of the eighth amendment culture we've created and a lack of resources. Some staff won't fight for these scans because they think we'll all be off having abortions if we know too much.

pc7

Went for a scan and baby was measuring behind, dates were 100% correct, heart beat was slow, was told to come back 2 days later. Another scan told hb had stopped and I could have a d&c. Needed another scan to confirm hb had stopped, it hadnt, it was so slow the person scanning me hadn't picked it up. It was still measuring behind, the hb was going to stop, they couldn't tell me when, they couldn't give me a d&c, they couldn't give me anything to bring on the mc. They could do nothing to help me. I was sent home to wait and to keep going back every 2 days for scans. It was beyond cruel and wrong imo. That's how the 8th affected my care.

shesty

That situation you describe is definitely directly affected by the 8th.It's awful.

Sorry, I don't mean to make out the Rotunda is the best or anything, just that my experience there, even vs stories I've heard of Holles st, and stories described here has been so different.I do know of several people driving past hospitals to other ones further away because they are not happy to go the one nearest them because they can't trust it.I think the mismatched development and approach of EPUs and anomaly scans probably originates from both the Catholic church's presence in the health system for so long, and also the 8th (obviously from a similar source). It's terrible that it is still affecting people so much in this day and age.

rainbow kirby

shesty wrote: »

I do know of several people driving past hospitals to other ones further away because they are not happy to go the one nearest them because they can't trust it.

This isn't just an Irish thing unfortunately. In north London (where I currently live) there are quite a few people who will avoid the North Middlesex like the plague in favour of the Whittington, Royal Free or UCLH because its maternity services have a terrible reputation. In the US it's fairly common to avoid Catholic hospitals if possible due to the fact that they can be even worse than Irish hospitals for miscarriage care.

pwurple

January wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

Pregnancy risk hasn't a whole lot to do with the scan. It's about the health of the woman primarily. Medical history, previous pregnancy history etc. Blood pressure, diabetes, HIV, PCOS,fertility medications, age. A scan has an impact on the risk assessment for confirming multiples...

I understand this but a pregnancy can also be made high risk if there are problems with the fetus and the if the fetus is unwell or has an abnormality that can and does make the pregnant person unwell also.

Every pregnant person should have an anomaly scan in my opinion.

Oh I agree, forewarned is forearmed. I had an anomaly scan on my first, the service was gone due to cut backs after that.

shesty

Cutbacks!
There are no words.

Neyite

shesty wrote: »

That situation you describe is definitely directly affected by the 8th.It's awful.

Sorry, I don't mean to make out the Rotunda is the best or anything, just that my experience there, even vs stories I've heard of Holles st, and stories described here has been so different.I do know of several people driving past hospitals to other ones further away because they are not happy to go the one nearest them because they can't trust it.I think the mismatched development and approach of EPUs and anomaly scans probably originates from both the Catholic church's presence in the health system for so long, and also the 8th (obviously from a similar source). It's terrible that it is still affecting people so much in this day and age.

I was admitted to the pre-natal ward - Named after a saint. Ward had an alter of said saint as you enter, and an oratory where one can pray and light candles.

After I delivered, I was moved to another ward. Named after a different saint. Again, there was a small altar on the ward.

My baby spent some time in NICU. Only it's not just called NICU. It's named after a saint. And you've to go through the Saint-named gynae ward to get to it. And more statues and alters on the way...

It's a public hospital. Not a private one run by nuns. And it's also the biggest and most equipped in the province, so it's the only option for many people. We are told that RC religion has zero bearing on their care-giving. Kinda hard to believe them when their hospital is festooned with all things Catholic.

Toots

shesty wrote: »

That situation you describe is definitely directly affected by the 8th.It's awful.

Sorry, I don't mean to make out the Rotunda is the best or anything, just that my experience there, even vs stories I've heard of Holles st, and stories described here has been so different.I do know of several people driving past hospitals to other ones further away because they are not happy to go the one nearest them because they can't trust it.I think the mismatched development and approach of EPUs and anomaly scans probably originates from both the Catholic church's presence in the health system for so long, and also the 8th (obviously from a similar source). It's terrible that it is still affecting people so much in this day and age.

The Rotunda is probably the furthest away from me of the Dublin maternity hospitals, but I'm trekking the extra distance this time around because I don't want to use Holles St again. There were a lot of aspects to my care there that I wasn't happy with - procedures etc done without my consent - and overall the feeling I got was that I was totally surplus to requirements and that the baby was the only one that mattered.

littlemisshobo

It hasn't yet as we were able to pay for the Harmony test and a doctor happy (and encouraging) to do the test. My older brother said even after the anomaly scan they worried the entire pregnancy and never heard of a simple blood test that could've put them at ease.

What concerns me is the issue of informed consent. This isn't simply a HSE policy that pregnant women don't have informed consent - its in our constitution. The 8th Amendment directly affects this. Should you be in a situation where you are uncomfortable with any treatment or intervention you don't really have a choice in the end. A sweep, induction, episiotomy, c-section or any other intervention can take place without your consent. This has made me very nervous about labour; knowing the law is actually against me choosing my own medical care. Under the law patients can refuse any medical treatment, even if it results in death, except in the case of mental incapacity and pregnancy. I can dig up the actual legislation and wording if anyone if interested.

I just have to hope that all goes well and my doctor will see this labour as a team effort. It's awful that I have limited rights and I think this side of the 8th amendment isn't being highlighted as people focus too much on the issue of abortion.

For me the 8th amendment is an equality issue and a violation of my rights.

shesty

Little misshobo, try to have a birth plan and phrase your birth plan in such a way as to try to accommodate that.It can help. So phrases like 'I would like to give birth upright.I would like to be assisted in doing this' and "I would like to try to get as far as I can without pain relief", that kind of thing (or whatever you choose, that was my choice!!).Bring it to your appointment around 36 weeks and try to discuss it with them.And put at the end some thing along the lines of the fact that these are things you would like but you understand in the case of a medical emergency they may not all be possible.I have found that my birth plans were quite well respected bar a couple of minor items that were overruled by medical necessity, but were acknowledged by the staff on the day.(ie,on my second child we wanted delayed cord clamping but she needed suctioning straight away and to be fair to the midwife he said very quickly look I know you want delayed clamping but I need to suction her now.....and I wasn't going to argue that,it was ok by us).

I view labour as more of an effort by me with everyone else being a bystander unless their intervention is actually required....I'd rather be left alone with my gas and air :-)

littlemisshobo

Thanks - I have yet to do the birth plan (I'm 25 wks) but I have been discussing issue like not wanting pitocin and wanting delayed cord clamping. He said the profession has swung back around to be pro delayed cord clamping and that they (the hospital) are also very encouraging of birth plans. We are going private so having the same consultant and continuity of care helps. I've not interacted at all with the hospital midwives though and I'm not sure at what point I'm only dealing with them in labour. Plenty of time to ask.

However when it comes down to it the evidence shows that non-emergency c-sections have long term health risks to the mother and I know that often this "baby is too big" can be used to perform a c-section. Your rights to challenge this are limited.

Hospitals differ in their approach to lots of care - like cord clamping, how long "over-due" you can go, etc. The 8ht Amendment affects how much you can dictate your own care, but it's also shocking the inconsistency of care throughout the maternity hospitals in the country.

LirW

I can only say that in the Rotunda they try everything to bring the high number of C-sections down. When I as a public patient told them that I want a C-section for my breech baby they accepted that though. Can't fault them in this regard. But when I see how much bad press for example the CUMH gets.... yes, that's shocking.

jadie

LirW wrote: »

I can only say that in the Rotunda they try everything to bring the high number of C-sections down. When I as a public patient told them that I want a C-section for my breech baby they accepted that though. Can't fault them in this regard. But when I see how much bad press for example the CUMH gets.... yes, that's shocking.

What is the bad press CUMH gets? Am trying to read up as much as I can and inform myself. I believe we can refuse a sweep and inductions if there is no clinical need or maybe I'm being naive. I know order interventions done in the throes of labour so the informed consent may not happen

lazygal

CUMH doesn't offer anatomy/anomaly scans as standard. That fact alone would make me avoid it.

scarepanda

Most hospitals, as far as I can gather, outside of major urban areas don't offer an anatomy scan. I know Mullingar and Ballinasloe don't (even though you get mini scans at every appointment in Ballinasloe).

jadie

lazygal wrote: »

CUMH doesn't offer anatomy/anomaly scans as standard. That fact alone would make me avoid it.

ah ok, I am getting one and also ones at 28,32,36 weeks plus the usual mini scan at visits. It's more the high rate of epiosotomies there that scare me plus they are very induction prone

pwurple

jadie wrote: »

What is the bad press CUMH gets? Am trying to read up as much as I can and inform myself. I believe we can refuse a sweep and inductions if there is no clinical need or maybe I'm being naive. I know order interventions done in the throes of labour so the informed consent may not happen

They cut back on the scans in recent years... but in my experience, it is an excellent hospital. Also, there is an option of public or private at the same hospital, obviously you get heaps more scans on private. Also, there are two or three nearby clinics where you can pay for additional scans if you want them.

The facilities are top notch, there is no such thing as a ward there, the rooms are max 4 people, but on public each time I was in a two person room.

I was never anything but assured that safety was being taken seriously. The slightest hint of blood pressure up or down and they kept me in for observation. (I have afriend who was sent home with rocketting blood pressure in a wexford hospital, who ended up with eclamptic fits and heart damage. )

I was not given an episiotomy but I did have a tear during the second birth, the follow up care was beyond what I expected. I got 4 sessions of post op care, up to a year later to help with pelvic floor repair. When I say help with pelvic floor, they were doing ultrasounds while I was contracting muscles, to make sure I was able to do it.

Now, I know it is not like the private hospitals in canada, where you phone for room service, and a hospital makeup artist and photographer comes around to get the perfect newborn photo. But I think CUMH is a modern safe maternity hospital, better than what you get in Holles street, or some other hospitals I visited.

Roesy

lazygal wrote: »

CUMH doesn't offer anatomy/anomaly scans as standard. That fact alone would make me avoid it.

You wouldn’t have a choice if you were in Cork. It’s the only maternity. It’s either there or a home birth.

jadie

pwurple wrote: »

They cut back on the scans in recent years... but in my experience, it is an excellent hospital. Also, there is an option of public or private at the same hospital, obviously you get heaps more scans on private. Also, there are two or three nearby clinics where you can pay for additional scans if you want them.

The facilities are top notch, there is no such thing as a ward there, the rooms are max 4 people, but on public each time I was in a two person room.

I was never anything but assured that safety was being taken seriously. The slightest hint of blood pressure up or down and they kept me in for observation. (I have afriend who was sent home with rocketting blood pressure in a wexford hospital, who ended up with eclamptic fits and heart damage. )

I was not given an episiotomy but I did have a tear during the second birth, the follow up care was beyond what I expected. I got 4 sessions of post op care, up to a year later to help with pelvic floor repair. When I say help with pelvic floor, they were doing ultrasounds while I was contracting muscles, to make sure I was able to do it.

Now, I know it is not like the private hospitals in canada, where you phone for room service, and a hospital makeup artist and photographer comes around to get the perfect newborn photo. But I think CUMH is a modern safe maternity hospital, better than what you get in Holles street, or some other hospitals I visited.

Thanks, it's reassuring to hear this. Were you public? While I can't complain about the number of scans I'm being given, I am worried about the prospect of the episiotomy and only being stitched up by a registrar, the only staff I have met in the hospital so far are incredibly young, apparently only juniors do the stitching on public patients. I really wish there was a semi-private option in CUMH

pwurple

jadie wrote: »

Thanks, it's reassuring to hear this. Were you public? While I can't complain about the number of scans I'm being given, I am worried about the prospect of the episiotomy and only being stitched up by a registrar, the only staff I have met in the hospital so far are incredibly young, apparently only juniors do the stitching on public patients. I really wish there was a semi-private option in CUMH

Yes, I was public. The person who stitched me up was a surgeon, and was not particularly young... I'd say late 30's, early 40's maybe.  I had to wait an hour for her to come over from the attached CUH hospital. 
There is a semi-private option in CUMH as far as I know. At least, that's the option some of my friends went for.

jadie

thank you, that's good to know. If it comes to it, I'll get my partner to try and insist on someone with experience doing the stitches if necessary. I was told only public or 3.5 k for a consultant in CUMH:( could you by any chance check with your friends for me?

jadie

Not sure if I can post links but Jacky Jones had an article in today's Irish Times supplement

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/jacky-jones-forcing-women-to-give-birth-within-a-specified-timeframe-is-abuse-1.3282848

volchitsa

jadie wrote: »

Not sure if I can post links but Jacky Jones had an article in today's Irish Times supplement

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/jacky-jones-forcing-women-to-give-birth-within-a-specified-timeframe-is-abuse-1.3282848

I've just read that, a lot to think about there.

It's interesting that she links habitual abuse in maternity care, traditionally run by male obstetricians, with other forms of abuse of women, and the recent revelations about Weinstein and others.