5000 Euro electricity bill

ED E

flaneur wrote: »

It sounds like the landlord spoted a meter reader card and submitted a reading. Those would be from ESB Networks, not the energy supply companies.

There would have been a card with the MPRN on it. All they’d have to do is ring or text a number with the current reading.

Could you verify that the address on your bill is the exact address for your home and not the landlord’s address or another property?

Like if you’re 1A Homeville and the landlord is 1 Homeville, you’ve a bit of an issue.

This sounds like some kind of conversion to apartments or something?

In my view this is partially the ESB’s fault. They should not allow a meter to go physically unread for that length of time. If they can’t get access they should be ringing people and knocking on doors.

One or two missed readings is one thing, but years is incredibly sloppy and will inevitably cause issues like this.

We get meter readers around to do an ESB reading more regularly than annually. They have probably knocked several times unanswered.

flaneur

Yeah but they should raise a major fuss if you don’t grant access twice.

The OP should have received a letter demanding access back in 2015 and explaining that they called on X and Y dates and were unable to view the meter and requesting that the OP contact them to resolve.

That would have set the ball in motion to get this resolved before it grew to this scale of a problem.

Failure to do that has created this and similar messes.

server down

the total cost pre standing charges at 3941.5 divided by the cost per unit of .1513 indicates that the readings were out by about 26051 units assuming no price changes


You can ask for the previous bills to be resent. I can’t imagine that this is a valid underestimation.

DrumSteve

That's mental,

Sounds like someone read the wrong meter,

Coles

Was the initial meter reading recorded on the lease when you moved into your home? When your name was put on the account this was probably done.

Do you use a lot of electricity? Do you use electric heating constantly? Is the water heater constantly on? If you do then it is possible that the bill is genuine.

If the meter is in a part of the house that you have no access to then it is possible that someone is stealing electricity. If the landlord has any electrical items plugged in that he has not informed you of then he is liable for it. For example a 1kw heater would add €4000 to your bill over three years. Don't alert your landlord to the problem yet until you figure out how to secure the evidence if this has been the case.

Very best of luck resolving this issue. It is very possible that it's mistake in the meter reading.

flaneur

The water heating being constantly on only matters if you've got the classic 'immersion' which is basically a copper cylinder with absolutely useless insulation or no insulation at all. So, basically it's a 3kW electric radiator.

If you've a proper fully insulated (to near thermos flask levels) water heater (as per the norm in most countries), you just leave the water heater on all the time and it only heats the water you used. Your hot press would be cold.

Kalimah

I'm in a four bedroom detached house with 5 people in it and I can tell you we don't stint on power. Our bills come to about 1200 a year. Something radically wrong there OP.

wordofwarning

flaneur wrote: »

Yeah but they should raise a major fuss if you don’t grant access twice.

The OP should have received a letter demanding access back in 2015 and explaining that they called on X and Y dates and were unable to view the meter and requesting that the OP contact them to resolve.

That would have set the ball in motion to get this resolved before it grew to this scale of a problem.

Failure to do that has created this and similar messes.

So you think private companies need to hold the hands of grown adults to ensure they submit a meter reading? Do you think there should be zero personal responsibility?

The ESB networks reads meters several times per year. They should not have to be calling and writing to John Smith, who is 45 years old to ask when suits him for a man from ESB networks to call out to hold us hand to read the meter that could easily be in his hall...

People failing to own their **** creates messes. Private companies should not have help adults do basic things like read a meter

server down

wordofwarning wrote: »

So you think private companies need to hold the hands of grown adults to ensure they submit a meter reading? Do you think there should be zero personal responsibility?

The ESB networks reads meters several times per year. They should not have to be calling and writing to John Smith, who is 45 years old to ask when suits him for a man from ESB networks to call out to hold us hand to read the meter that could easily be in his hall...

People failing to own their **** creates messes. Private companies should not have help adults do basic things like read a meter

Christ there is always one plonker. In this case she can’t get at the meter. Take your political rant elsewhere.

flaneur

1. ESB Networks is a semi-state / public body, not a private company.
2. I think power companies make a huge profit and could spend a tiny bit of effort ensuring they have accurate billing information.
3. It’s not difficult to print a warning notice clearly on the bill if you have an estimated reading or even send a warning text message.
4. Multiple estimated readings should generate a flag where it’s followed up.
5. It is not in any company’s interests to allow situations like this to build as it will often result in difficulties collecting an enormous bill, having to extend credit or even having to write the bill off.
6. It would identify safety issues like lack of access to a meter / board as the OP is having.

It’s not unreasonable to expect these things to happen.
Particularly when many people (probably most) pay energy bills by direct debit and many don’t even get paper bills. Unless they’re large amounts they probably don’t read them. You just see Electric Ireland, Airtriciy, Energia etc and an amount on your back statement. If that’s out of line with normal you might log in and check the bill on their site.
These are highly profitable companies operating a public utility in a regulated market. They shouldn’t just be so lazy as to just let metering slide without pushing to get action to get a reading. It’s very sloppy practice at best.

The idea that a consumer must constantly check up on the accounting practices of a huge industry and take a hit when they fail to gather data is absolutely contrary to the ideas of consumer protection and consumer rights.

The assumption has to be that you're dealing with a potentially vulnerable party who doesn't have the same level of resources as the companies involved.

To present someone with a €5000 bill is crazy stuff. They need to at the very least be accommodating about sprteading that payment to balance it out.

server down

You’d at least think that a customer reading that caused a huge spike in the next bill would be investigated.

server down

Why in 2017 do meters have to be read anyway? Why is it 1950’s technology.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

server down wrote: »

Why in 2017 do meters have to be read anyway? Why is it 1950’s technology.

Hence the introduction of smart metres.

server down

That’s still 1992 technology. I don’t need a dirty great bandwidth meter on the wall of my kitchen. Or hidden in a hard to access locker. Give me an app.

JohnC.

server down wrote: »

That’s still 1992 technology. I don’t need a dirty great bandwidth meter on the wall of my kitchen. Or hidden in a hard to access locker. Give me an app.

I'd rather they sort out the notoriously abysmal security on IoT devices before going widespread with that.

flaneur

Even using 1970s billing systems you could flag a problem like not allowing more than two estimated bills without automatically issuing a letter to the customer.
This is all 100% achievable with the technology they’ve had for many decades.

ESB Networks did several smart meter trials and seemed to find issues with most of them. That’s probably why they’re waiting for a more mature, bug free solution before they go lashing money into it.

You can also do it without exposing it to the public internet. IoT smart meters with an ability so shut off supply would be just begging to be hacked!

James 007

Kalimah wrote: »

I'm in a four bedroom detached house with 5 people in it and I can tell you we don't stint on power. Our bills come to about 1200 a year. Something radically wrong there OP.

The OP has been in the place for 3 years. I am not questioning the OP here, but I always find with non irish people that they tend to go with the flow, use gas/elec to their hearts content and then only ask questions when the correct reading bill comes in the door. Only you OP can answer this question. You say you were in cheap accommodation, how was it heated, was it electrically heated. Assume electric cooker too. How much pressure did you put on the owner to ensure the correct reading was taken. Why didnt you take the reading and submit it yourself. Ive done this before and the bill was not even in my name. The cost is €111/month addtional, assuming 3 years, total amount €3,900. What were your previous bills like, do you have records. Just some points but only you OP will know whether you were negligent with regards usage or did you control you level of usage. If its the latter then you have every right to question it.

eurasian

When you started renting you should have taken meter readings for bos electricity and gas.
If you didn't, you have strongs grounds to negotiate with landlord. If you did, then there's a real problem unless it's technicals faults somewhere on the lines.

ShaShaBear

James 007 wrote: »

The OP has been in the place for 3 years. I am not questioning the OP here, but I always find with non irish people that they tend to go with the flow, use gas/elec to their hearts content and then only ask questions when the correct reading bill comes in the door. Only you OP can answer this question. You say you were in cheap accommodation, how was it heated, was it electrically heated. Assume electric cooker too. How much pressure did you put on the owner to ensure the correct reading was taken. Why didnt you take the reading and submit it yourself. Ive done this before and the bill was not even in my name. The cost is €111/month addtional, assuming 3 years, total amount €3,900. What were your previous bills like, do you have records. Just some points but only you OP will know whether you were negligent with regards usage or did you control you level of usage. If its the latter then you have every right to question it.

eurasian wrote: »

When you started renting you should have taken meter readings for bos electricity and gas.
If you didn't, you have strongs grounds to negotiate with landlord. If you did, then there's a real problem unless it's technicals faults somewhere on the lines.

Both of you seem to be missing the part where she has no access to do a meter reading as the meter is located in a different property that the landlord has denied her access to.

James 007

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Both of you seem to be missing the part where she has no access to do a meter reading as the meter is located in a different property that the landlord has denied her access to.

Well if it is in a different property, then I would ask the landlord for photographic evidence from the time I entered to the time I was leaving. Is the bill in the OP's name, this is key, if not the landlord doesn't stand a chance to get money back. The supply board may have taken a customer reading at some stage, also try and get hold of that and the date it was taken, ti may help

huey1975

The OP is probably making an absolute fortune operating a grow house and this bill is just a drop in the ocean.

rubadub

flaneur wrote: »

The water heating being constantly on only matters if you've got the classic 'immersion' which is basically a copper cylinder with absolutely useless insulation or no insulation at all. So, basically it's a 3kW electric radiator.

At least it will turn off though, some radiators have no settable thermostat and are just on constantly, or can be forced on constantly. I lived with a guy who had a towel heater rail thing, it was on 24/7, think it was 500W, costed a fortune, room would be like a sauna at times, as there were other heaters often on too.

Another guy I lived with used to insist on turning on the immersion heater until the tank was too hot to touch all over, just to have a short shower. You could see the temp setting in the shower was turned down quite low afterwards, i.e. he did not even want a very hot hot shower, the water was way too hot so he had to turn it down. I knew the tank only had to feel slighty warm just at the top to be able to have a decent hot shower, by leaving the heat on as you showered.

Many are completely unaware about how much power some things use, you will see them fussing about turning off energy saving lights in rooms "to save electricity", or plugging out TVs or phone chargers, yet are pissing away heat/energy in other ways.

Many are unaware how applianes work, I saw a site with a guy saying philips airfryers are terrible as they use so much energy compared to other cooking. He wrongly presumed it was using 1450W constantly. Some are also very sure of themselves, in a thread about slow cookers I just gave up explaining it.

Escapees

Off topic and a bit weird maybe, but... when I tried finding this thread again just now, I came across this -> http://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/102401610

Bill in this case was also for €4800 and period of time was similar too - what are the chances?!!

flaneur

The clue is in the “hot press” anything that’s throwing out that much heat is costing you a lot of money. Your typical old style Irish immersion heater is a simple uninsulated copper tank with no insulation or at best a loosely fitted fibre glass jacket. That’s basically like turning on a 3kW kettle and leaving it on all day as the heat will dissipate into the air.

If it’s a well insulated modern water heater, they loose very little heat (as little as 1° per hour) so once the tank is at temperature they’ll just shut off the heat. In other words, you’re paying only for the water heating you actually use. The “classic type” are basically just working as a radiator.

A lot of people aren’t familiar with such old school technology and assume hot water systems are insulated. That’s where you can get a bills shock in Ireland with the old primitive immersion systems.

Also storage heaters and peak demand radiant panels cost an absolute fortune to run relative to gas.
1kWh is 1kWh whether you’re using gas or electricity.
On my plan 18.26 cent for electric peak and 8.75 c off peak.

Vs 5.17 cent for gas !

Yet I have still had problem trying to tell me that heating with electricity is somehow cheaper due to their notions about efficiency and unscientific thinking!!

Electricity at peak rate is more than 3.5 times more expensive to heat with than natural gas.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

CeilingFly

Jennifer Stale Recruiter wrote: »

Hence the introduction of smart metres.

Which Paul Murphy and his socialist goons will protest about..

OP neefs to discuss this with their provider, get the meter checked, ensure its her electricity only and if correct come to an arrangement.

But 3 years of estimated bills is ridiculous from both sides

Quite essy to rack up extra €120 or so a month.

the_pen_turner

the amount of people that don't know how to read the bill is scary. most just look at the price and that's it. they only question it when its a noticeably higher.
most don't know if the bill is estimated or read or even some that don't know it could be estimated.


the providers really need to be forced to clearly show these things. my phone bill says I did X,Y,Z. it cost A per X unit, B per Y unit and C per Z unit and total cost. and vat etc. that's all. all the crap nobody cares about is on the back and I think they are getting rid of that and putting the crap online

rubadub

flaneur wrote: »

The clue is in the “hot press” anything that’s throwing out that much heat is costing you a lot of money. Your typical old style Irish immersion heater is a simple uninsulated copper tank with no insulation or at best a loosely fitted fibre glass jacket. That’s basically like turning on a 3kW kettle and leaving it on all day as the heat will dissipate into the air.

No it is not, I already mentioned this. It is thermostatically controlled so will not be outputting 3kW all day, unless it is broken, or unless you have the hotpress open and a fan blowing on it or something. I would estimate a typical cylinder with a lagging jacket would be outputting 300-500W or so if it is very hot. If the hot press is left open or drafty then it will lose more heat. This heat will go towards heating the house, so if you have thermostatically controlled electric heaters they would not be using as much power, as you are heating the house with your immersion heater to some degree. Many people value this heat, having hot towels or using it to dry things out, get bread to rise etc. If you have a converted attic which is lived in then the heat will go to better use.

flaneur wrote: »

1kWh is 1kWh whether you’re using gas or electricity.
On my plan 18.26 cent for electric peak and 8.75 c off peak.

Vs 5.17 cent for gas !

1kWh of gas will typically not heat the same amount of water as 1kWh of electricity, not even close. A microwave will not heat water as efficiently as a regular kettle.

some figures here which I would believe as I have read up similar results before
https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-2452,00.html

This experiment was done on the NSW Central Coast 20th July 2013. Any costing refers to NSW values. To boil 1 litre of water in a Circulon kettle on an Ariston gas cooktop took 5mins 5secs and used 0.019cu.metres gas. 1cu.metre=39.3547MJ and 1MJ=$0.02967. COST 0.019x39.3547x0.02967=2.22cents. To boil 1 litre of water in a Russell Hobbs electric jug took 2mins 45secs and used 0.112kWh electric. 1kWh=53.592cents Peak 1kWh=21.842cents Shoulder 1kWh=13.42cents Off Peak Peak 7am-9am, 5pm-9pm Shoulder 9am-5pm, 9pm-10pm Off Peak 10pm-7am COST 0.112x53.592=6cents Peak 0.112x21.842=2.45cents Shoulder 0.112x13.42=1.503cents Off Peak Therefore in NSW it is cheaper to boil water by gas unless you feel like getting up in the middle of the night. Although Shoulder period electricity is only marginally more expensive than gas a working couple would be mainly boiling their water during the Peak period.
Barry Shearman, Woongarrah Australia

The gas usage there equates to 0.2077kWh, also I would like to know how they went about the experiment. If they put a thermometer in the gas heated kettle and turned off the moment it reached boiling point then they should have done the same for the electric kettle. Most kettles continue to heat for a short while after reaching boiling.

flaneur wrote: »

Yet I have still had problem trying to tell me that heating with electricity is somehow cheaper due to their notions about efficiency and unscientific thinking!!

In some cases it is. e.g. if I want to boil 50ml of water I would use the microwave. I frequently do boil such small amounts, I might be cleaning out a plastic container or bowl or something and want to use boiling water, so I boil water in the actual container.

If making tea many want to brew with boiling water, so many resort to boiling a kettle, pouring water into the cup to heat it, pour it out and pour in more boiling water -again a microwave can end up more efficient to do this task -even though the kettle is usually more efficient.

Another thing very often ignored is the cost of having and maintaining a gas boiler, servicing, standing fees, and they might already have an electrical immersion tank.

flaneur

A gas heated kettle would be vastly less efficient than a modern boiler as most of the heat is just going around the outside of the pot and into the kitchen. It’s a very crude setup compared to what a condensing boiler is doing.

A gas boiler (at least a modern condensing one) will absorb most of the heat, releasing nearly cool exhaust gas. They're extremely efficient.

If you want to boil water in the kitchen more efficiently, use a double walled insulated kettle (now widly available). I have a Bosch one that also turns off using a digital thermostat. You select the temp. you want - eg 70°C for green tea or boiling 100° for normal tea.

Microwaves aren’t 100% efficient. A significant amount of energy is lost as heat in the magnetron and losses in the high voltage transformer. Most of this is heat energy and is blown away by the cooling fan.

If you want to cut cooking costs - buy a very well insulated oven (more expensive ones tend to be better energy rated) and an induction hob (electromagnetic energy heating the pot rather than radiant and convection energy heating the room).

Things like an efficient dishwasher is typically using LESS energy and water than washing by hand. A lot of people don’t seem to realize that and still see dishwashers as a huge energy hog. That’s just not the case anymore.

A heat pump dryer is also just vastly more energy efficient than a vented one or a traditional condenser or drying in a washer dryer.

Efficient lighting (LEDs) replacing incandescent and halogens also has a huge impact in bigger houses.

The biggest energy sink in most Irish homes is the house itself. Until very recent builds, most are extremely poorly insulated and ventilated without any attempts at heat recovery.

George Sunsnow

The op shouldn’t be paying a bill on a meter he/she cannot check readings on. PERIOD
So I look forward to hearing the result of an actual reading
The building owner could easily have read the meter wrong
The last decimal point is in red for example and is not the last number
Or the building owner might need glasses
Bar the OP is running a 10kw pirate radio station or something,the bill doesn’t make sense bearing in mind they’ve been paying an estimated average household bill over the period

We’ll know next week,so update then OP after you’ve had the meter read and the unacceptable access to it issue resolved