General Rugby Discussion II

Winters

Disappointing and concerning. Once that % is sold to private interests then its highly likely to increase and certainly not come back into union ownership. Formula 1 case in point.

Quin_Dub

This does not look good at all..

Wales backs coach Rob Howley has been sent home from the World Cup for an alleged breach of World Rugby's laws covering betting and anti-corruption.

The 48-year-old's departure is a huge blow just six days before Wales' opening game in Japan against Pool D opponents Georgia.

A Welsh Rugby Union statement said Howley had "returned to Wales to assist with an investigation".

The WRU confirmed it was in relation to a potential breach of betting on rugby.

To be replaced by Stephen Jones with immediate effect.

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

This does not look good at all..



To be replaced by Stephen Jones with immediate effect.

I can't imagine he has been sent home without there being some breach of protocol but will wait and see how serious it is before passing any judgement.

Wasn't he due to take over Italy from Conor O'Shea?

sydthebeat

One of the names mentioned.

Seems a bit weird if it was an ongoing investigation that it would only appear as a problem now.....

Squidgy Black

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can't imagine he has been sent home without there being some breach of protocol but will wait and see how serious it is before passing any judgement.

Wasn't he due to take over Italy from Conor O'Shea?

Reports were that it was pretty much a done deal to be confirmed after the RWC.

I'd imagine the WRU are trying to protect the players at this stage, having a coach subject to a WRU investigation in camp and on the sidelines would garner even more media attention than sending him home as soon as the story broke, particularly if it turns out any of the bets are linked to tournament games etc.

Was in early this morning so did a bit of reading up on the Howley situation as there doesn't seem to be much information in the article I read last night.

First off - this allegation was communicated to the WRU on the 11th September and again on the 13th. No information if it was the same party communicating both instances.

WRU sent someone out to Japan on the 14th to speak with Howley and this was the start of an investigation.

The allegation is of a serious nature.

Howley is / was aware of the regulations banning this activity as are all the players. It's something they are repeatedly educated about and it's one area where full compliance is expected - ruling out the likelihood that this was an accidental breach.

Gatland was informed on the 16th. It's unclear when the decision was made to release Howley but realistically once a credible allegation had been made WRU were on notice and not removing him from the setup would have created accountability on their part to share in whatever blame is coming down the track.

So in summary, it's probable a serious enough offence was committed in full knowledge that this would be damaging if it became public.

I'd hope at least that no bets were made relating to any team Wales will play during the pools.

You would imagine Howley will probably have to take time away from the sport now, rehabilitate his image and then pick up a coaching gig in due course. Very unfortunate circumstances and timing, hope it's ultimately not too serious but optics aren't great to be honest.

Edit: this is as detailed a review of events as I've seen: https://www.the42.ie/rob-howley-gambling-firm-4813931-Sep2019/

Speculation based on twitter:

Accusation of betting on Wales first scores against weaker teams and designing attacking platforms to realise those bets. Some other bets involving Welsh games and apparently worse still to be confirmed.

That's lifetime ban territory if accurate.

Please note this is based on speculation around screenshots that have been leaked - if the mods are unhappy please remove but it's widespread online at this point.

errlloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

That's lifetime ban territory if accurate.

Please note this is based on speculation around screenshots that have been leaked - if the mods are unhappy please remove but it's widespread online at this point.

I saw this speculation. I suspect it can't be that clear cut. It took them so long to send him home?surely elt it had to be more subtle.

Interested Observer

Deleted User wrote: »

Speculation based on twitter:

Accusation of betting on Wales first scores against weaker teams and designing attacking platforms to realise those bets. Some other bets involving Welsh games and apparently worse still to be confirmed.

That's lifetime ban territory if accurate.

Please note this is based on speculation around screenshots that have been leaked - if the mods are unhappy please remove but it's widespread online at this point.

I don't know how that information would be out there yet considering the timelines we're talking about. The betting company informed the WRU informally about his betting only a week ago - and they'd have no idea of any context other than he's betting. Then you'd need someone to join his betting selections to what's happening in training which seems like an enormous stretch to me.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

I saw this speculation. I suspect it can't be that clear cut. It took them so long to send him home?surely elt it had to be more subtle.

The WRU were told informally last Wednesday and were presented evidence on Friday.

He was sent home Monday.

As he is an employee, WRU have procedures to follow so they probably moved as quickly as they could.

sydthebeat

incredibly stupid if he was betting on rugby in his own accounts???

Interested Observer

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't know how that information would be out there yet considering the timelines we're talking about. The betting company informed the WRU informally about his betting only a week ago - and they'd have no idea of any context other than he's betting. Then you'd need someone to join his betting selections to what's happening in training which seems like an enormous stretch to me.

It wasnt as precise as that. More 'first score will be a forward from a lineout inside 10 minites'.

Things to that effect.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

incredibly stupid if he was betting on rugby in his own accounts???

Through a seperate business allegedly.

Interested Observer

Deleted User wrote: »

It wasnt as precise as that. More 'first score will be a forward from a lineout inside 10 minites'.

Things to that effect.

Whatever it is, if someone is saying he made bets and then intended to use his coaching position to try win them, I am extremely skeptical.

There's other rumours he bet on England to win the RWC which sounds far more believable to me.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

incredibly stupid if he was betting on rugby in his own accounts???

It would have to be in his own name if it's online. Using a pseudonym online wouldn't work long term. Bookmakers routinely demand ID checks etc. for KYC purposes.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

It would have to be in his own name if it's online. Using a pseudonym online wouldn't work long term. Bookmakers routinely demand ID checks etc. for KYC purposes.

thats not what i mean....

i mean it would be very stupid for him to be putting bets on rugby, through his own named account... and not doing it by proxy through friends etc.....

Former Former

Interested Observer wrote: »

Whatever it is, if someone is saying he made bets and then intended to use his coaching position to try win them, I am extremely skeptical.

There's other rumours he bet on England to win the RWC which sounds far more believable to me.

Yeah, betting on other unrelated games/teams in your sport is the sort of thing that gets you fined and banned.

Betting on games you can directly influence yourself is the sort of thing that gets you jailed.

I'd really hope Howley wasn't that stupid.

Here is one of the messages that is floating around. Again - I'm not sure if this breaches the charter but it is all over the internet. Remove if not appropriate.

On a more cheery note and pure random general comments (because this is getting depressing), my little lad is starting his first training session this Saturday.

No amount of RWC will tempt me away from that

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

On a more cheery note and pure random general comments (because this is getting depressing), my little lad is starting his first training session this Saturday.

No amount of RWC will tempt me away from that

Brilliant my 4 year old started 2 weeks ago and so far he loves it.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here is one of the messages that is floating around. Again - I'm not sure if this breaches the charter but it is all over the internet. Remove if not appropriate.

I giggled at the "laundering money through his café"

Only a matter of time before someone claims to have seen a blood spatter in said café.

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

On a more cheery note and pure random general comments (because this is getting depressing), my little lad is starting his first training session this Saturday.

No amount of RWC will tempt me away from that

Get the tape off to Joe, with all the injury talk going around there may be a call up in the next few weeks if they hit the ground running!

joseywhales

Such specific bets would raise a flag to begin with. Linking different accounts on website or finding out the owner of a business is not hard. There are behavior patterns on the site, betting patterns, location timestamps and after all that there are private investigators, how on Earth did he think he would get away with it?

kuang1

joseywhales wrote: »

Such specific bets would raise a flag to begin with. Linking different accounts on website or finding out the owner of a business is not hard. There are behavior patterns on the site, betting patterns, location timestamps and after all that there are private investigators, how on Earth did he think he would get away with it?

Purely speculation on my part, but if he's a gambling addict, then thoughts of getting away with it would be over ridden by the impulse to gamble.

That's fairly strongly contradicted by the preemptive element that seems to be in play here though.

Really hard to know how he came make such decisions. I mean he's got a good career, hardly on the breadline or anything.

NeonWolf

Rumours going around that the Howley thing goes much deeper with more people involved within the camp.

Captain_Crash

NeonWolf wrote: »

Rumours going around that the Howley thing goes much deeper with more people involved within the camp.

I’ve read this on another forum too! It could be huge by all accounts

Quin_Dub

NeonWolf wrote: »

Rumours going around that the Howley thing goes much deeper with more people involved within the camp.

Captain_Crash wrote: »

I’ve read this on another forum too! It could be huge by all accounts

Is it being suggested that players are involved?

NeonWolf

Captain_Crash wrote: »

I’ve read this on another forum too! It could be huge by all accounts

Weakened teams picked intentionally and worse....

NeonWolf

NeonWolf wrote: »

Weakened teams picked intentionally and worse....

That's entering territory where Gatland could be involved. That's a huge accusation. It would potentially be the biggest scandal in rugby history.

Nah, they just want an excuse for their sh1te performances against Ireland