General Rugby Discussion II

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It certainly works at keeping the best Irish players in Ireland

Don't think that's true.

I would have thought the whole "go abroad and you don't get picked" thing would be more to thank for that rather than the "don't worry, you don't have to play in the Pro14" policy.

RobbieRuns

awec wrote: »

Don't think that's true.

I would have thought the whole "go abroad and you don't get picked" thing would be more to thank for that rather than the "don't worry, you don't have to play in the Pro14" policy.

I disagree. The players know the attrition rate. They want to be protected, they just want the money to be the same as going abroad. They all test the waters with France and the Premiership to up the bidding with the IRFU.

Sexton could not wait to get back here as he was being flogged in France. They want to play for Ireland, they want to play the right number of games and they want top dollar as well. Simple

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Don't think that's true.

I would have thought the whole "go abroad and you don't get picked" thing would be more to thank for that rather than the "don't worry, you don't have to play in the Pro14" policy.

I'd say the selection policy is keeping guys at the very top, but there's also guys who stay here who don't really have any chance of international caps. I was told that specifically by a guy who retired in the last few years and had a chance to go to France for his final contract, and turned that down because of advice he received externally about how much more likely he would be to wreck his body over there, he decided it wasn't worth it.

Former Former

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I disagree. The players know the attrition rate. They want to be protected, they just want the money to be the same as going abroad. They all test the waters with France and the Premiership to up the bidding with the IRFU.

Sexton could not wait to get back here as he was being flogged in France. They want to play for Ireland, they want to play the right number of games and they want top dollar as well. Simple

Sexton being flogged by Racing was a bit of a myth tbh.

There are about five players who can play for Ireland and still get top dollar. For everyone else there's a compromise somewhere along the way.

awec

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I disagree. The players know the attrition rate. They want to be protected, they just want the money to be the same as going abroad. They all test the waters with France and the Premiership to up the bidding with the IRFU.

Sexton could not wait to get back here as he was being flogged in France. They want to play for Ireland, they want to play the right number of games and they want top dollar as well. Simple

How does the attrition rate compare in Ireland vs outside of Ireland?

I don't believe there are any statistics that suggest players in Ireland have longer careers. I don't believe there are any statistics that show, for example, that English players are more likely to have their careers cut short by injury.

In short, there's no evidence that the IRFU approach has any material effect on anything.

RobbieRuns

awec wrote: »

How does the attrition rate compare in Ireland vs outside of Ireland?

I don't believe there are any statistics that suggest players in Ireland have longer careers. I don't believe there are any statistics that show, for example, that English players are more likely to have their careers cut short by injury.

In short, there's no evidence that the IRFU approach has any material effect on anything.

It's all opinion of course, no one can say that the evidence is clear. But it is fact that with no relegation in Celtic rugby, the Irish international players play less games than their English counterparts. I would respectfully suggest that playing less games (outside of internationals) would lead to less injuries and long term issues. Would it be fair to say that the likes of BOD got the best out of his career by being managed in terms of game time? Maybe he got "one more year" that he would not otherwise have had if he had played in England.

Anyway, I prefer the Irish approach, better for the players.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

How does the attrition rate compare in Ireland vs outside of Ireland?

Well anecdotally players are talking about how much worse players get treated in France (specifically) than they are in Ireland.

It's not just about how long your career is. Players care about what their quality of life is going to be like after their career ends.

I don't know, maybe the union is sharing stats or evidence to back that up. But it doesn't matter really, all that matters is that players think this is the way things are. I think English clubs would have a better reputation, but they're only as competitive as their currency is these days I guess.

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

Sexton being flogged by Racing was a bit of a myth tbh.

There are about five players who can play for Ireland and still get top dollar. For everyone else there's a compromise somewhere along the way.

Sexton was been flogged by Racing and then he had the head injury issues and had to take a period of rest

thomond2006

If I remember correctly, Sexton had a heavy workload at the start of his Racing career due to other injuries at 10.

Former Former

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton was been flogged by Racing and then he had the head injury issues and had to take a period of rest

I think that's a very Irish slant on it. I'm not sure IRFU were any more concerned with his welfare than Racing were. Certainly I was pretty unhappy with the IRFU approach to his concussion issues in the lead up to and after his 3-month rest period. And of course that rest period only came about under the French system, in Ireland he'd have been free to play on.

We were every bit as guilty of flogging him as they were.

fullstop

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What do you mean it’s bollocks exactly? Is it not pretty well explained what happened?

It was in no way well explained. JH said he was tested at Churchill Cup by Irish Sports Council. They subsequently confirmed to PK that they had no jurisdiction to do so and said JH was confusing things. USADA said they did not test there that year either. JH now refusing to engage and has blocked PK or anyone questioning him on twitter.

salmocab

fullstop wrote: »

It was in no way well explained. JH said he was tested at Churchill Cup by Irish Sports Council. They subsequently confirmed to PK that they had no jurisdiction to do so and said JH was confusing things. USADA said they did not test there that year either. JH now refusing to engage and has blocked PK or anyone questioning him on twitter.

PK has had it in for him since Heaslip got injured and PK made outrageous comments about it being a plan for selection. Heaslip subsequently never played again so him not getting involved with someone as low as PK is hardly surprising.

aloooof

salmocab wrote: »

PK has had it in for him since Heaslip got injured and PK made outrageous comments about it being a plan for selection. Heaslip subsequently never played again so him not getting involved with someone as low as PK is hardly surprising.

I had forgotten about that; can understand why Heaslip doesn't want to engage with Kimmage in that context.

salmocab

aloooof wrote: »

I had forgotten about that; can understand why Heaslip doesn't want to engage with Kimmage in that context.

Nobody in Irish rugby is going to want to engage with Kimmage he’s had it in for rugby for a long time, also worth noting that Kimmage is actually a drugs cheat himself.

Shefwedfan

salmocab wrote: »

Nobody in Irish rugby is going to want to engage with Kimmage he’s had it in for rugby for a long time, also worth noting that Kimmage is actually a drugs cheat himself.

This is the point everyone forgets. He took drugs, then tried to say it wasn't the good drugs

Now has it in for rugby because he has fired out a few times about drugs but has nothing to back it up.



Heaslip doesn't really give a s**t and I doubt he would bother going back to him as he knows he is nothing but a bottom of the barrel feeder

Yeah_Right

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Heaslip doesn't really give a s**t and I doubt he would bother going back to him as he knows he is nothing but a bottom of the barrel feeder

Kimmage seems to be the sort of guy who tries to pick a fight and when no one engages with him, he throws his toys. The best thing rugby can do is ignore him. He may have been a good journalist once upon a time (I don't actually know) but now he just seems to be irrelevant. The only thing I know about him is he had a long feud with Lance Armstrong and it appears that he is looking to do the same with someone else. Anyone else.

salmocab

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Kimmage seems to be the sort of guy who tries to pick a fight and when no one engages with him, he throws his toys. The best thing rugby can do is ignore him. He may have been a good journalist once upon a time (I don't actually know) but now he just seems to be irrelevant. The only thing I know about him is he had a long feud with Lance Armstrong and it appears that he is looking to do the same with someone else. Anyone else.

He did some very good work on the Armstrong thing but I’d say he’s now desperate to be involved in something big as his star has waned big time. He wants attention and will continue to fling crap hoping something sticks. It’s just where we are with gutter press now.

aloooof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Kimmage seems to be the sort of guy who tries to pick a fight and when no one engages with him, he throws his toys. The best thing rugby can do is ignore him. He may have been a good journalist once upon a time (I don't actually know) but now he just seems to be irrelevant. The only thing I know about him is he had a long feud with Lance Armstrong and it appears that he is looking to do the same with someone else. Anyone else.

To give him his due with regards something rugby-related he wrote, his book Engage about Matt Hampson is a very, very good (if tough) read.

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

To give him his due with regards something rugby-related he wrote, his book Engage about Matt Hampson is a very, very good (if tough) read.

But for a few millimetres, that was my life in 2011.
Last year I did the Run in the Dark for the Spinal Unit, in the Mater and will be taking to their Patient Care team today as they want me to do an interview with them, for patients facing in to treatment in the NSU.

I luckily walked out of there after only a week (and 6 months immobilisation afterwards) but not something I will ever forget and I am not ashamed to say that I cried uncontrollably, through fear, that first night.
I don't know how, and can not have more respect for, people who live full lives and manage to find joy after these injuries. I could see no future that first night.

CatFromHue

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is the point everyone forgets. He took drugs, then tried to say it wasn't the good drugs

Now has it in for rugby because he has fired out a few times about drugs but has nothing to back it up.

Heaslip doesn't really give a s**t and I doubt he would bother going back to him as he knows he is nothing but a bottom of the barrel feeder

He took drugs in an end of season race not any of the tours or big events. His whole career was about staying away from drugs and then since everyone else was on them he took them. As far as I know he might have only taken them in one event, or certainly only a few, and then walked away from the sport.

He does rub people up the wrong way with his style but he is an excellent journalist and Rough Ride, his first book, is one of the best sports autobiographys out there.

I don't think he's desperate for attention either, that's Ewan MacKenna. Kimmage has a weekly slot in the Sunday Independent and I'd say is happily enough working away with that. He writes about the good and bad in sport too, not just the bad.

As for him and Heaslip there is something wrong with his story, even the person from the sports council said this. I think it's only a minor thing that could easily be cleared up.

AdamD

Regardless of what he's investigating Kimmage never fails to come across as a complete arse hole

AdamD

AdamD wrote: »

Regardless of what he's investigating Kimmage never fails to come across as a complete arse hole

I don't care, if he can back up what he is peddling. Right now he is just looking like an attention seeking media-whore

blue note

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is the point everyone forgets. He took drugs, then tried to say it wasn't the good drugs

Now has it in for rugby because he has fired out a few times about drugs but has nothing to back it up.



Heaslip doesn't really give a s**t and I doubt he would bother going back to him as he knows he is nothing but a bottom of the barrel feeder

That's pretty much the opposite of his experience taking drugs. He took drugs twice I believe and said that after taking them he realised he could never compete with the people taking them such was the boost they gave him. This has given him the best perspective to understand the actual effects of performance enhancing drugs.

I'd have a lot of respect for Kimmage for his integrity in his work on cycling. The abuse he took for writing a book and articles about drug abuse in cycling was horrific. Most people would have been persuaded to give it up, but you have to respect him for pursuing what he knew was the truth. If he and David Walsh hadn't done what they did, cycling would have as clean a reputation as any sport now. Since cycling has been accepted to be riddled with drugs he has broadened what he was saying about drugs in cycling to be drugs in sports in general. And he's had the exact same reaction, except now social media is a thing so the abuse he gets is personal and direct. There's very rarely criticism of what he says, just abuse towards him. His articles on what Heaslip has written in his book are a perfect example. He's not accusing Heaslip of taking anything, but asking to explain a story which doesn't make sense. And the vast majority of comment on it is abuse at kimmage and very little asking Heaslip to give some clarity on the test he claims to have failed.

I don't believe sport in general wants to deal with drugs in their sports though. Just before Leicester won the premier league a doctor came out and said that he had provided drugs to a number of players included for Leicester and it was barely a story. I watched a documentary on baseball doping recently and it was rife yet the are very minor repercussions from it. Even in GAA, a Kerry player failed a test and was banned a couple of years ago (from what i read of the story it sounded like a genuine mistake by an amateur teenager),but the reaction was to keep it quiet. He had taken a supplement with trace elements of a banned substance (not listed as an ingredient on the pack). But you'd expect them to tell the other players in case anyone else was using it, but nope. Drugs are even common for lads who just work out in gyms. The chances of them not being common in elite sport are zero. Testing has been proven to be inadequate time and time again.

I think the truth is that people just don't want to hear about it. We're just watching sport for light entertainment and don't want to think deeply it. An occasional scandal like lance Armstrong or justin Gatlin is something fun to read about, but there's nothing fun about a significant percentage of top athletes being drug cheats.

If I was Kimmage I'd give it up. Regardless of his sincerity, he's only going to bring abuse on himself.

salmocab

blue note wrote: »

That's pretty much the opposite of his experience taking drugs. He took drugs twice I believe and said that after taking them he realised he could never compete with the people taking them such was the boost they gave him. This has given him the best perspective to understand the actual effects of performance enhancing drugs.

I'd have a lot of respect for Kimmage for his integrity in his work on cycling. The abuse he took for writing a book and articles about drug abuse in cycling was horrific. Most people would have been persuaded to give it up, but you have to respect him for pursuing what he knew was the truth. If he and David Walsh hadn't done what they did, cycling would have as clean a reputation as any sport now. Since cycling has been accepted to be riddled with drugs he has broadened what he was saying about drugs in cycling to be drugs in sports in general. And he's had the exact same reaction, except now social media is a thing so the abuse he gets is personal and direct. There's very rarely criticism of what he says, just abuse towards him. His articles on what Heaslip has written in his book are a perfect example. He's not accusing Heaslip of taking anything, but asking to explain a story which doesn't make sense. And the vast majority of comment on it is abuse at kimmage and very little asking Heaslip to give some clarity on the test he claims to have failed.

I don't believe sport in general wants to deal with drugs in their sports though. Just before Leicester won the premier league a doctor came out and said that he had provided drugs to a number of players included for Leicester and it was barely a story. I watched a documentary on baseball doping recently and it was rife yet the are very minor repercussions from it. Even in GAA, a Kerry player failed a test and was banned a couple of years ago (from what i read of the story it sounded like a genuine mistake by an amateur teenager),but the reaction was to keep it quiet. He had taken a supplement with trace elements of a banned substance (not listed as an ingredient on the pack). But you'd expect them to tell the other players in case anyone else was using it, but nope. Drugs are even common for lads who just work out in gyms. The chances of them not being common in elite sport are zero. Testing has been proven to be inadequate time and time again.

I think the truth is that people just don't want to hear about it. We're just watching sport for light entertainment and don't want to think deeply it. An occasional scandal like lance Armstrong or justin Gatlin is something fun to read about, but there's nothing fun about a significant percentage of top athletes being drug cheats.

If I was Kimmage I'd give it up. Regardless of his sincerity, he's only going to bring abuse on himself.

Why would Heaslip give Kimmage of all people any explanation for anything. Kimmage made up nonsense about his injury a few years back so I doubt engaging with someone of that caliber is high on Heaslip’s to do list.

irishbucsfan

fullstop wrote: »

It was in no way well explained. JH said he was tested at Churchill Cup by Irish Sports Council. They subsequently confirmed to PK that they had no jurisdiction to do so and said JH was confusing things. USADA said they did not test there that year either. JH now refusing to engage and has blocked PK or anyone questioning him on twitter.

So the problem isn’t the test. The problem isn’t the explanation of the result. The problem isn’t any subsequent or prior drugs test. The problem is Heaslips memory of who conducted the test?

It’s a nothing story. If Heaslip was a grand master of hiding drug abuse throughout a long career, then what on earth was he doing volunteering the information out of nowhere to David Walsh of all people in 2014. And why, if there was anything in it, would Walsh not pursue it, given the work he did on Armstrong?

Kimmage has a problem with Heaslip and he has a problem with rugby, so he’s trying to invent a problem where no evidence of one exists. And the interview he did with that woman shows up the manic sad case he has become after years of having been a credible author and investigative journalist.

aloooof

It'd make for an interesting first guest if Heaslip does pursue a podcast tho...

blue note

salmocab wrote: »

Why would Heaslip give Kimmage of all people any explanation for anything. Kimmage made up nonsense about his injury a few years back so I doubt engaging with someone of that caliber is high on Heaslip’s to do list.

If I was Heaslip I certainly wouldn't engage. Heaslip has put out a story about him failing a drugs test that kimmage has shown to be very odd to say the least. Based on what we've read from the two of them the story doesn't make sense I'm sure we can all agree. There might not be much more needed to it to make it add up, but we don't have those missing bits of information.

But very few seem to want an explanation from Heaslip and I don't think he has anything to gain from giving one. So I'd like to understand it, but I don't expect Jamie to care too much about myself and Paul Kimmage.

salmocab

blue note wrote: »

If I was Heaslip I certainly wouldn't engage. Heaslip has put out a story about him failing a drugs test that kimmage has shown to be very odd to say the least. Based on what we've read from the two of them the story doesn't make sense I'm sure we can all agree. There might not be much more needed to it to make it add up, but we don't have those missing bits of information.

But very few seem to want an explanation from Heaslip and I don't think he has anything to gain from giving one. So I'd like to understand it, but I don't expect Jamie to care too much about myself and Paul Kimmage.

He really won’t care, he’s retired, it was him that put it in the book so he’s hardly hiding anything. This is a massive nothing story. People aren’t looking for an explanation because very few people think there is anything to explain. It’s why the story didn’t get any traction.

blue note

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So the problem isn’t the test. The problem isn’t the explanation of the result. The problem isn’t any subsequent or prior drugs test. The problem is Heaslips memory of who conducted the test?

It’s a nothing story. If Heaslip was a grand master of hiding drug abuse throughout a long career, then what on earth was he doing volunteering the information out of nowhere to David Walsh of all people in 2014. And why, if there was anything in it, would Walsh not pursue it, given the work he did on Armstrong?

Kimmage has a problem with Heaslip and he has a problem with rugby, so he’s trying to invent a problem where no evidence of one exists. And the interview he did with that woman shows up the manic sad case he has become after years of having been a credible author and investigative journalist.

The problem is that Heaslip recanted a story he doesn't seem to remember accurately and it was related to a failed drugs test which Kimmage is particularly sensitive about. But the general public are not as sensitive and are happy to assume there's an innocent explanation and that's why there's virtually no-one demanding one. This isn't even a big enough story to blow over, because there's no furore about it now.

David Walsh dropped the drugs angle after cycling was blown open. He even toured with team sky since and said that he saw no evidence of drug taking there. I think he was right to drop it too. He suffered for years for writing about cycling if he'd continued to write about drugs he'd still be suffering personal abuse like kimmage.

And every sport feels kimmage has a problem with them. I'd watch most sports but hurling would be by far my favourite. And GAA people are convinced Kimmage has an anti GAA vendetta.

Squidgy Black

blue note wrote: »

The problem is that Heaslip recanted a story he doesn't seem to remember accurately and it was related to a failed drugs test which Kimmage is particularly sensitive about. But the general public are not as sensitive and are happy to assume there's an innocent explanation and that's why there's virtually no-one demanding one. This isn't even a big enough story to blow over, because there's no furore about it now.

David Walsh dropped the drugs angle after cycling was blown open. He even toured with team sky since and said that he saw no evidence of drug taking there. I think he was right to drop it too. He suffered for years for writing about cycling if he'd continued to write about drugs he'd still be suffering personal abuse like kimmage.

And every sport feels kimmage has a problem with them. I'd watch most sports but hurling would be by far my favourite. And GAA people are convinced Kimmage has an anti GAA vendetta.

The problem with Kimmage and rugby isn't just the doping element of it, he's written hit pieces about CJ Stander and other project players too. He seems to just pop up any time there's a chance to cause controversy which in fairness to him it's exactly what he thrives off and is paid to do, but it's always going to rile up fans of the sport.