General Rugby Discussion II

troyzer

£5m in fines and presumably an end to the current under the counter payments means there's no way Saracens can carry their players going forwards. They're going to have to release a few.

And to compound that, a 35 point deduction last season would have also seen them in a relegation battle.

I'm not suggesting they'll get relegated this year but it seems very unlikely they'll qualify for Europe on league position. They can still qualify based on where they come in Europe.

If they have to deal with a fine, a payroll cut and a drop in European TV money it'll really, really hurt them. Maybe even permanently.

Podge_irl

Ah. 35 points deduction would still have seen them at least 10 points clear of relegation in the last 4 seasons I think. In the bottom 3 or 4 for sure, but relegation doesn't tend to be that close in the Premiership. They'll need to win the Champions Cup to get in that way.

thomond2006

As tempting as it is to delight in this, I imagine a lot of people innocent to the breach will be losing jobs.

If the deduction applies to this season, Saracens at best will be out of Europe in 2020/21.

Exclamation Marc

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Well there's no european salary cap so those successes are legitimate.

Yes but would they have qualified for Europe without their domestic salary violations.

Sure, you can't take the performances away but it's all somewhat tainted.

And this deduction (if not reduced) will likely have them lose a year's European Cup action unless they win it.

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ah. 35 points deduction would still have seen them at least 10 points clear of relegation in the last 4 seasons I think. In the bottom 3 or 4 for sure, but relegation doesn't tend to be that close in the Premiership. They'll need to win the Champions Cup to get in that way.

I'll be interested to see what sort of amendments they have to make to their squad if this comes to pass i.e. players no longer receiving massive pay packets due to the cap being adhered to along with a £5m hit severely hindering their ability to pay players those amounts even if the cap wasn't enforced.

This could completely change how Saracens operate/perform in the space of the next 1-2 years.

thomond2006

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/

This season's table has been updated.

Utah_Saint

I'd expect players like Maitland and Williams to leave/let go. Unless Williams is classed as a Marquee player?

Quin_Dub

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Yes but would they have qualified for Europe without their domestic salary violations.

Sure, you can't take the performances away but it's all somewhat tainted.

And this deduction (if not reduced) will likely have them lose a year's European Cup action unless they win it.

So - Assuming the penalty stay following any appeals , a bunch of their marquee players now have a pretty big choice to make - Take significant pay cuts to stay where they are , or look to go elsewhere to maintain their income.

Will be interesting to see who takes which option when the time comes.

bilston

Massive news.

This has the potential to change Saracens for good.

They really need to win the Champions Cup this season otherwise they may be out of Europe for a long time. Even if they did in next year their squad will surely be rwadixally different.

To be fair they broke Premiership rules so have only themselves to blame, slightly different in Europe where they are competing against French clubs with bigger budgets.

As ever though innocent members of staff are the ones who will suffer most in all of this.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

I'll be interested to see what sort of amendments they have to make to their squad if this comes to pass i.e. players no longer receiving massive pay packets due to the cap being adhered to along with a £5m hit severely hindering their ability to pay players those amounts even if the cap wasn't enforced.

This could completely change how Saracens operate/perform in the space of the next 1-2 years.

What will be interesting is what happens to current contracts where players were receiving these payments that are presumably about to stop. Does it void the playing contract?? Or will they be forced to just take a pay cut then leave when their contract is up.

Quin_Dub

thomond2006 wrote: »

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/

This season's table has been updated.

Just looking at the tables in the above link.

They finished last year on 86 points , the deduction would have put them on 51 , level with Bath & Bristol so depending on PD they'd have been somewhere between 8th and 10th , similarly the previous 2 years , the deduction would have put them in 10th place both years.

So no Europe in any of the years they are accused of breaking the rules..

Utah_Saint

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/about-premiership-rugby/about-us/salary-cap/

I had a quick read of the terms. Saracens must be paying their players crazy salaries. The Cap is £7m but you can have two Marquee signings outside of that those players could be on £1million a year each if you wanted.

You get special Dispensations for injured players (up to £400k perseason) Think about this for players like Billy V who was out for long periods of time.
You also get £80K per player back for Players on England duty. How many internationals do Saraies have and times that by £80k
Sarries have developed a lot of outstanding talent from their academy which also allows them to access a further £600K in credits for doing this.

When you add up all those dispensations/credits + plus 2 marquee + the 'Business/property' deals with Wray the final figure must be substantially bigger than anyone else in Prem or Pro14

troyzer

This is also coming in a year where they're a bulk supplier to an England squad who will be very tired and bruised after a very long campaign.

And we know what that did to them after the Lions tour. They also have a very difficult European group.

I don't think they'll be in Europe next year.

roverjoyce

I don't see why Irish fans are so happy to see Saracens struggle
The same is happening in Leinster
How can they afford to pay 15 Irish players and 5 marquee players whilst Connacht are down to the minimum

Of the 8 English players 6/7 have come through their academy and now they are Internationals they are struggling to pay them
What are they supposed to do?
Let them leave for nothing as there is no transfer fees in rugby!

What is the point in developing players is you cant pay them what they are worth

How come Leinster can never not afford to pay their players?

LuckyGent88

That is just incredible news. I think everyone always knew that they were breaking the rules anyway. Just look at the amount of international stars they have.

They have Goode and Williams and then went and got Daly. Madness really

Utah_Saint

roverjoyce wrote: »

I don't see why Irish fans are so happy to see Saracens struggle
The same is happening in Leinster
How can they afford to pay 15 Irish players and 5 marquee players whilst Connacht are down to the minimum

Of the 8 English players 6/7 have come through their academy and now they are Internationals they are struggling to pay them
What are they supposed to do?
Let them leave for nothing as there is no transfer fees in rugby!

What is the point in developing players is you cant pay them what they are worth

How come Leinster can never not afford to pay their players?

Central Contract....

Are you an irish rugby fan? Its pretty well understood in Ireland how central contracts work

aloooof

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

That is just incredible news. I think everyone always knew that they were breaking the rules anyway. Just look at the amount of international stars they have.

They have Goode and Williams and then went and got Daly. Madness really

8 Lions with the addition of Daly. Their pack has 5, it's nuts.

However, the Eggchasers podcast made a good point awhile back that, in a sense, they are being penalised for developing International players who go on to command International level salaries. They suggested excluding a certain number of players who have come through the academy from the salary cap. There might be something to that, since they obviously don't have a Centrally Contracted player model.

Utah_Saint

In other crazy news. Sonny Bill has signed for Toronto WolfPack. £5million over two years!!!!!!!!

sydthebeat

roverjoyce wrote: »

I don't see why Irish fans are so happy to see Saracens struggle
The same is happening in Leinster
How can they afford to pay 15 Irish players and 5 marquee players whilst Connacht are down to the minimum

Of the 8 English players 6/7 have come through their academy and now they are Internationals they are struggling to pay them
What are they supposed to do?
Let them leave for nothing as there is no transfer fees in rugby!

What is the point in developing players is you cant pay them what they are worth

How come Leinster can never not afford to pay their players?

The IRFU system works... which is why it is sustainable and why we need to keep tight reigns on it.
The IRFU have no problem off loading players who look for more than the contract on offer.

... and why the sugar daddy system of some english and french clubs is damaging to the game.

Exeter have shown how to be successful AND sustainable. i wonder how they feel today in the knowledge that saracens could be considered to have cheated them to at least 1 premiership title?

irishbucsfan

****ing hell

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/

This season's table has been updated.

Mental. They are now playing to avoid relegation and keep their internationals fit for the rest of the season.

troyzer

roverjoyce wrote: »

I don't see why Irish fans are so happy to see Saracens struggle
The same is happening in Leinster
How can they afford to pay 15 Irish players and 5 marquee players whilst Connacht are down to the minimum

Of the 8 English players 6/7 have come through their academy and now they are Internationals they are struggling to pay them
What are they supposed to do?
Let them leave for nothing as there is no transfer fees in rugby!

What is the point in developing players is you cant pay them what they are worth

How come Leinster can never not afford to pay their players?

Leinster didn't break any rules, Saracens did.

Teams like Saracens are also responsible for this runaway wage inflation which is ruining the game so it's nice to see them get slapped around.

Not all of their England players are home grown. Neither of the Vunipolas are. Daly wasn't.

Are Sarries going to have to trim their roster immediately or can they see out the season? Are they still over the cap?

If they've to downsize the squad it's going to impact their competitiveness. They are 6 bonus point wins behind last place.

MayoForSam

I guess this might also mean Marmion won't be heading that direction any time soon?

Quin_Dub

aloooof wrote: »

8 Lions with the addition of Daly. Their pack has 5, it's nuts.

However, the Eggchasers podcast made a good point awhile back that, in a sense, they are being penalised for developing International players who go on to command International level salaries. They suggested excluding a certain number of players who have come through the academy from the salary cap. There might be something to that, since they obviously don't have a Centrally Contracted player model.

I wouldn't be opposed to something like that, if you developed the player you should be able to compete to keep them.

Having said that - The rules are the rules and they broke them , simple as that.

They have potentially denied other clubs the financial benefits of prize money , sponsorship and TV rights money from Europe etc. by doing this.

I doubt there are any other teams in England feeling sorry for Sarries today - A few might be worried about their own books though.

troyzer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are Sarries going to have to trim their roster immediately or can they see out the season? Are they still over the cap?

If they've to downsize the squad it's going to impact their competitiveness. They are 6 bonus point wins behind last place.

This was my first thought.

The way that the statement was worded about "disclosure of payments" seems to suggest that the payments themselves weren't illegal, but that they're considered under the cap.

Which means that yeah, they're probably ridiculously over the cap now that it's all out in the open.

That Elliot Daly signing looks worse every day.

troyzer

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I wouldn't be opposed to something like that, if you developed the player you should be able to compete to keep them.

Having said that - The rules are the rules and they broke them , simple as that.

They have potentially denied other clubs the financial benefits of prize money , sponsorship and TV rights money from Europe etc. by doing this.

I doubt there are any other teams in England feeling sorry for Sarries today - A few might be worried about their own books though.

I disagree. It's a fact of life in every sport (except soccer and Formula 1) that repeated success eventually leads to an inability to keep the band together. It happens in nearly every sport it's what keeps sport competitive.

If teams were continually able to build on their success you'd never be able to catch up. It's why Formula 1 is so boring and the same few teams pretty much win every major club tournament in soccer every year.

It's what makes the New England Patriots so great. They develop the right players, win Superbowls, lose them when they can't afford to keep them and then simply develop more.

Leinster are the model team for this in rugby. We don't lose players due to money typically but to other provinces.

molloyjh

Having read the Sarries statement on this it looks like there could be a lot less impact to this than initially appears. Assuming Sarries statement is accurate.

It would seem that they pay a salary in line with the salary cap and top up contracts with "co-investments" that PRL have confirmed are outside the scope of the salary cap. This "innovative" approach is perfectly within the rules, but they do need to inform PRL about the "co-investments" and they hadn't been doing so. Hence the breach.

If that is true then there will be no change to contracts, no trimming down of the squad and, in real terms, no changes at all. If they can win the HEC this season and avoid relegation the only real punishment will be the £5m fine. At worst they will miss a season in the HEC.

The big question then becomes, can they absorb the financial hit?

Podge_irl

molloyjh wrote: »

Having read the Sarries statement on this it looks like there could be a lot less impact to this than initially appears. Assuming Sarries statement is accurate.

It would seem that they pay a salary in line with the salary cap and top up contracts with "co-investments" that PRL have confirmed are outside the scope of the salary cap. This "innovative" approach is perfectly within the rules, but they do need to inform PRL about the "co-investments" and they hadn't been doing so. Hence the breach.

If that is true then there will be no change to contracts, no trimming down of the squad and, in real terms, no changes at all. If they can win the HEC this season and avoid relegation the only real punishment will be the £5m fine. At worst they will miss a season in the HEC.

The big question then becomes, can they absorb the financial hit?

Sarries don’t claim PRL have confirmed that the payments are outside the cap. They claim there are precedents (that they don’t mention) where PRL found them outside the cap.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

I disagree. It's a fact of life in every sport (except soccer and Formula 1) that repeated success eventually leads to an inability to keep the band together. It happens in nearly every sport it's what keeps sport competitive.

If teams were continually able to build on their success you'd never be able to catch up. It's why Formula 1 is so boring and the same few teams pretty much win every major club tournament in soccer every year.

It's what makes the New England Patriots so great. They develop the right players, win Superbowls, lose them when they can't afford to keep them and then simply develop more.

Leinster are the model team for this in rugby. We don't lose players due to money typically but to other provinces.

Leinster have the benefit of centrally contracted players that Saracens don't, tho. It's not a like for like comparison.