General Rugby Discussion II

Quin_Dub

troyzer wrote: »

I disagree. It's a fact of life in every sport (except soccer and Formula 1) that repeated success eventually leads to an inability to keep the band together. It happens in nearly every sport it's what keeps sport competitive.

If teams were continually able to build on their success you'd never be able to catch up. It's why Formula 1 is so boring and the same few teams pretty much win every major club tournament in soccer every year.

It's what makes the New England Patriots so great. They develop the right players, win Superbowls, lose them when they can't afford to keep them and then simply develop more.

Leinster are the model team for this in rugby. We don't lose players due to money typically but to other provinces.

I get your point , but not sure the NFL example is really valid though - The Colleges develop the players and then they get picked up by the NFL teams , the draft system allows for a balancing of the distribution of quality though.
I guess what you can say about a team like the Patriots is that they have really excellent scouts and choose from the draft wisely.

In the rugby context , if you've been working with a player since they were 15/16 years old and then at maybe 22 they make the breakthrough to International level it would be pretty crap to lose that guy to another team just because you can't compete financially, the absence of something like a transfer fee compounds it.

Maybe if a player has come through the academy then a transfer fee applies until they have played 3 yrs Pro level or something?

Just think clubs should be able to benefit from developing a talent.

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sarries don’t claim PRL have confirmed that the payments are outside the cap. They claim there are precedents (that they don’t mention) where PRL found them outside the cap.

Just read it again. You're right, they are making the point that there is precendent and they have legal opinion to back that up. They also say they will defend that position so obviously this is the but they are being punished for after all.

So yeah, depending on the outcome of the review it could have massive impacts.

I don't feel bad for them.....

aloooof

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I get your point , but not sure the NFL example is really valid though - The Colleges develop the players and then they get picked up by the NFL teams , the draft system allows for a balancing of the distribution of quality though.
I guess what you can say about a team like the Patriots is that they have really excellent scouts and choose from the draft wisely.

In the rugby context , if you've been working with a player since they were 15/16 years old and then at maybe 22 they make the breakthrough to International level it would be pretty crap to lose that guy to another team just because you can't compete financially, the absence of something like a transfer fee compounds it.

Maybe if a player has come through the academy then a transfer fee applies until they have played 3 yrs Pro level or something?

Just think clubs should be able to benefit from developing a talent.

Agreed. They already exclude a certain number of marquee signings from the salary cap. Excluding players who have come through the academy would seem more beneficial to me, and further incentivise clubs to develop players.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Leinster have the benefit of centrally contracted players that Saracens don't, tho. It's not a like for like comparison.

All the provinces have central contracted player....

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All the provinces have central contracted player....

And Leinster have the most...

I think people are fooling themselves if they think Leinster’s salary spend isn’t in the same vicinity as Sarries. How much of the salary is for play for the national side versus Leinster is a valid discussion sure but we’re carrying an insane number of internationals.

Squidgy Black

The issue doesn't seem to be with the actual "investments" that Wray and co are making to the players shell companies, but the fact they weren't disclosed to the league as part of their auditing.

thomond2006

There's not exactly a lot of transparency on spending by provinces.

Quin_Dub

molloyjh wrote: »

Having read the Sarries statement on this it looks like there could be a lot less impact to this than initially appears. Assuming Sarries statement is accurate.

It would seem that they pay a salary in line with the salary cap and top up contracts with "co-investments" that PRL have confirmed are outside the scope of the salary cap. This "innovative" approach is perfectly within the rules, but they do need to inform PRL about the "co-investments" and they hadn't been doing so. Hence the breach.

If that is true then there will be no change to contracts, no trimming down of the squad and, in real terms, no changes at all. If they can win the HEC this season and avoid relegation the only real punishment will be the £5m fine. At worst they will miss a season in the HEC.

The big question then becomes, can they absorb the financial hit?

Is this the Saracens view as part of their defence or have PRL confirmed this to be the case?

It's a huge difference - One off fine and points deduction vs. a complete restructure of their payments and squad numbers.

Podge_irl

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Is this the Saracens view as part of their defence or have PRL confirmed this to be the case?

It's a huge difference - One off fine and points deduction vs. a complete restructure of their payments and squad numbers.

It’s Sarries view. They claim precedents exist. It’ll be headed for appeal/review obviously.

jr86

troyzer wrote: »

This is also coming in a year where they're a bulk supplier to an England squad who will be very tired and bruised after a very long campaign.

And we know what that did to them after the Lions tour. They also have a very difficult European group.

I don't think they'll be in Europe next year.

Or the other side of it is they're welcoming back a plethora of players in flying form, and at the top of their games. Itoje, the two Vunipolas, Liam Williams, Farrell, and george would all start for the Lions in the morning. Vincent Koch is now a world cup winner

Racing are currently 2nd from bottom in France. I'd be very surprised to be honest if Sarries didn't pick up 6 wins from 6 in their group

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

And Leinster have the most...

I think people are fooling themselves if they think Leinster’s salary spend isn’t in the same vicinity as Sarries. How much of the salary is for play for the national side versus Leinster is a valid discussion sure but we’re carrying an insane number of internationals.

The reverse of that is Leinster send so many to Ireland so often that they need a bigger squad to cover the gaps and in general do this with young Irish players. That said I don’t think comparing the two is easy.

Shefwedfan

This is just slap on wrist, otherwise they would say the salaries would have to be brought into regulations within 12 months or something like that.

Saracens will muddy the waters and continue as is. Who gives a sh*t aout a 5 million fine when they are 50 odd million in debt? also the points deduction?they will be midtable by Christmas and in top 6 for play offs.....

Quin_Dub

jr86 wrote: »

Or the other side of it is they're welcoming back a plethora of players in flying form, and at the top of their games. Itoje, the two Vunipolas, Liam Williams, Farrell, and george would all start for the Lions in the morning. Vincent Koch is now a world cup winner

Racing are currently 2nd from bottom in France. I'd be very surprised to be honest if Sarries didn't pick up 6 wins from 6 in their group

A huge amount depends on what happens next - As others have pointed out, it could build a "siege" spirit in the squad and they go on and continue to dominate for this season , with only winning the Champions cup keeping them in Europe next year.

Or - If they lose their appeals and their payment structures are torn up, players could become disillusioned and begin to focus more on getting a new contract somewhere else and so on.

If they get to keep their squad and are allowed to continue to pay them as they are , just with better reporting, then I can see Saracens digging in and playing really well all year.

But , if they lose and have to start cutting salaries or squad members then it's hard to see those that remain being "up for the fight" , but who knows.

Shefwedfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

And Leinster have the most...

I think people are fooling themselves if they think Leinster’s salary spend isn’t in the same vicinity as Sarries. How much of the salary is for play for the national side versus Leinster is a valid discussion sure but we’re carrying an insane number of internationals.

I didn't see this as an issue when Munster had majority of the central contracts?



Leinster are not in an arse's roar of Sarries salary. A Ozzie international didnt bother going to the WC to stay at home and play in Premiership, you telling me he wasn't fired a few quid for that?



The 2 x Vunipolas/Farrell/Daly/Williams/Itoje would all be on similar wages to Sexton. The top player in Leinster by a distance.

thomond2006

Quin_Dub

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is just slap on wrist, otherwise they would say the salaries would have to be brought into regulations within 12 months or something like that.

Saracens will muddy the waters and continue as is. Who gives a sh*t about a 5 million fine when they are 50 odd million in debt? also the points deduction?they will be midtable by Christmas and in top 6 for play offs.....

That's virtually impossible with a 35 point reduction.

They would have finished in 10th every year for the last 3 years if you docked them 35 points from their final total.

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I didn't see this as an issue when Munster had majority of the central contracts?



Leinster are not in an arse's roar of Sarries salary. A Ozzie international didnt bother going to the WC to stay at home and play in Premiership, you telling me he wasn't fired a few quid for that?



The 2 x Vunipolas/Farrell/Daly/Williams/Itoje would all be on similar wages to Sexton. The top player in Leinster by a distance.

What the hell do Munster have to do with anything?

jr86

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That's virtually impossible with a 35 point reduction.

They would have finished in 10th every year for the last 3 years if you docked them 35 points from their final total.

Yeah but I'm sure there were games near the end of the season where they eased up? Or some they may not have been as gung-ho in - even subconsciously.

Every game will be extremely important for them now, and to be honest I could see them going close to unbeaten for the rest of the season

I can't be bothered to do the maths, but top 6 will still surely be too big an ask however

I'd say they won't be close to relegation though

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All the provinces have central contracted player....

I only mentioned Leinster as this is the only team troyzer specifically compared them too - see below. Comparing them to any province is not a like for like comparison.

troyzer wrote: »

Leinster are the model team for this in rugby. We don't lose players due to money typically but to other provinces.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I didn't see this as an issue when Munster had majority of the central contracts?

Do we need to go down this road?? There's enough interesting things to discuss here without getting into a provincial row...

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is just slap on wrist, otherwise they would say the salaries would have to be brought into regulations within 12 months or something like that.

Saracens will muddy the waters and continue as is. Who gives a sh*t aout a 5 million fine when they are 50 odd million in debt? also the points deduction?they will be midtable by Christmas and in top 6 for play offs.....

They will finish the season in the 8-10 region. Thinking they will be top 6 is ludicrous fantasy stuff. It could happen but it is spectacularly unlikely.

And obviously they will have to bring their salaries in line. They have been found to breach the cap. If they keep breaching the cap they will face more sanctions.

Quin_Dub

jr86 wrote: »

Yeah but I'm sure there were games near the end of the season where they eased up? Or some they may not have been as gung-ho in - even subconsciously.

Every game will be extremely important for them now, and to be honest I could see them going close to unbeaten for the rest of the season

I can't be bothered to do the maths, but top 6 will still surely be too big an ask however

I'd say they won't be close to relegation though

Podge_irl wrote: »

They will finish the season in the 8-10 region. Thinking they will be top 6 is ludicrous fantasy stuff. It could happen but it is spectacularly unlikely.

And obviously they will have to bring their salaries in line. They have been found to breach the cap. If they keep breaching the cap they will face more sanctions.

Just a quick tot up - 22 games in the season , so a "perfect" season is a maximum 110 points , they've already dropped 6 points from the 3 games so far so the maximum they could possibly get is 104.

104-35 is 69 points.

That would have gotten them 3rd last year and 4th for the 2 years before that.

Dropping anymore than 12 points between now and the end of the season , based on the last 3 years would leave them outside the Top 6.

Their highest ever full season total was 78 points btw.

joseywhales

Luckily they have built their team the right way from grassroots with a strong sense of pride and loyalty and none of their players will be tempted to leave now.

is_that_so

joseywhales wrote: »

Luckily they have built their team the right way from grassroots with a strong sense of pride and loyalty and none of their players will be tempted to leave now.

That sounds more like a morketing pitch!

is_that_so

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Just a quick tot up - 22 games in the season , so a "perfect" season is a maximum 110 points , they've already dropped 6 points from the 3 games so far so the maximum they could possibly get is 104.

104-35 is 69 points.

That would have gotten them 3rd last year and 4th for the 2 years before that.

Dropping anymore than 12 points between now and the end of the season , based on the last 3 years would leave them outside the Top 6.

Their highest ever full season total was 78 points btw.

Hard to say what the impact will be. It could certainly affect the roster of contracted players. Relegation is still a risk and that would screw them totally.

Exclamation Marc

Moving away from the bun fighting of Leinster v the other three provinces, the simple fact is Saracens are not sustainable long term if they continue within the same financial model.

They wrote off nearly 50m in debt earlier this year and this after continuing losses, the most recent being nearly 4m in 2018. And bear in mind this is with Saracens winning in Europe and domestically most years.

Anyone comparing their situation to any Irish province is either misinformed or delusional. And that's not including any of the payments made through this co-investment model spoken of.

ClanofLams

They’ll have to get rid of some players immediately or be in breach again this season right?

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

When did Heaslip say that? I remember him saying that there wasnt a doping culture in rugby and that he believes that the processes in place work. I dont remember him saying he has never played against guys who have doped though. And who did he play against who had been doping?

sydthebeat wrote: »

Unless he's said that in his book, which I haven't read yet.... I don't believe heaslip said those things, especially being so definitive about not playing against players who doped. How would he know?

He said it when he was on Second Captains. I've been trying to find a link for it but you have to join them to do so. The comments on the podcast forum will have to do

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111552021&postcount=8503

Johann Goosen, Ashely Johnson, Carlo Del Fava and Chiliboy Ralepele are guys who I think Heaslip has played against who all failed drug tests.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Complete red herring anyway.

If you’re defending Kimmage’s articles by trying to bring up something that’s not in them then I think that says all that needs to be said.

If he thinks someone else is in rugby a doper and he’s writing meaningless articles about Heaslip as a way to act out on that then he’s just a childish troll.

People were saying why is the paper printing such stories with little in them but they're part of an overall story. One of Kimmage's articles was pretty much a response to Heaslip's comments.

DelBoy Trotter

The premiership table has been updated again. Sarries are now back to 4th place with 9 points, but with an asterix beside them (* Saracens deducted 35 points for breaches to the Salary Cap regulations, subject to review)

Shefwedfan

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

The premiership table has been updated again. Sarries are now back to 4th place with 9 points, but with an asterix beside them (* Saracens deducted 35 points for breaches to the Salary Cap regulations, subject to review)

So they lasted a grand total of 4-5 hours before they buckled

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So they lasted a grand total of 4-5 hours before they buckled

:rolleyes:

If the punishment is appealed/reviewed than it is put on hold til after the conclusion of the review. Which is pretty standard practice.