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General Rugby Discussion II

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    #5192
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why do they bother with a salary cap?

    It's an attempt to keep things competitive and stop wages going insane, same as salary caps in any sport.


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    #5193
    171170
    Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭171170


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why do they bother with a salary cap?

    Because 10 or 11 of the Premier clubs are consistently making massive losses annually and there were fears that the whole Premiership would go tits up if clubs tried to keep up with wealthy sugar daddies who were buying the league every year.


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    #5194
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    It's an attempt to keep things competitive and stop wages going insane, same as salary caps in any sport.


    There are salary caps in other sports?


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    #5195
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,677 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    There are salary caps in other sports?

    NFL


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    #5196
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There are salary caps in other sports?

    Yes, basically every US pro sporting league has one, Aussie Rules does, NRL does, Aus Super Rugby teams do or at least did.


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    #5197
    bluedex
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    171170 wrote: »
    Because 10 or 11 of the Premier clubs are consistently making massive losses annually and there were fears that the whole Premiership would go tits up if clubs tried to keep up with wealthy sugar daddies who were buying the league every year.

    Also, lack of salary cap seriously downgrades other important skills relevant to a professional sports club: coaching, scouting, recruitment, player development, the management of the salary cap in balancing it between top grade internationals and other players etc. etc. etc.
    If you can just buy the titles it massively reduces the achievement IMO

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



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    #5198
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Yes, basically every US pro sporting league has one, Aussie Rules does, NRL does, Aus Super Rugby teams do or at least did.

    French have a salary cap too, though it is a good deal higher.


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    #5199
    Sir Guy who smiles
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Sir Guy who smiles


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Yes, basically every US pro sporting league has one.....

    And yet some Americans claim they don't like soccer because it is a "socialist" sport.
    :rolleyes:


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    #5200
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sir Guy who smiles wrote: »
    And yet some Americans claim they don't like soccer because it is a "socialist" sport.
    :rolleyes:

    Don't tell them the idea behind the nfl draft


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    #5201
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    May be of limited interest to Irish fans but S4C have picked up the rights to show one European Challenge Cup game live each round this season.


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    #5202
    Brief_Lives
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    Nigel Wray reaction to the verict of the Disciplinary Panel

    https://twitter.com/Saracens/status/1192140756892422150

    He's delusional... investments not salary, something about autism, .. etc etc...

    the comments underneath the video are a must read...


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    #5203
    Brief_Lives
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There are salary caps in other sports?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap#Hard_cap,_soft_cap_and_salary_floor


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    #5204
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Brief_Lives wrote: »
    Nigel Wray reaction to the verict of the Disciplinary Panel

    https://twitter.com/Saracens/status/1192140756892422150

    He's delusional... investments not salary, something about autism, .. etc etc...

    the comments underneath the video are a must read...

    Anyone who gets part of their pay as shares or has an RSU better go to their employer and demand a payrise, there's risk involved so they can't possibly be salary.


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    #5205
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Anyone who gets part of their pay as shares or has an RSU better go to their employer and demand a payrise, there's risk involved so they can't possibly be salary.
    It depends on what the shares represent. I had a look at Vunprop Ltd. accounts and other filings here. The company owns two properties in London valued at £1.5 million with bank loans totalling £1 million and other loans at approximately £0.5 million. The shareholders are the Vunipola brothers and Nigel Wray. The other loans were listed as falling due within one year of the balance sheet date in the accounts.

    Two banks have fixed and floating charges on the properties. Hampshire Trust has a fixed charge on 103 Trundleys Road and a floating charge on all property of the company and One Savings Bank has a fixed charge on 45 Alloa Road. There are no details of charges relating to the other loans. They may be just the current repayable portions of the bank loans that are due in the following year, but that would seem extremely high relative to the total value.

    The company was originally incorporated by Nigel Wray and the Vunipola brothers were added about a month later.


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    #5206
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,789 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Anyone who gets part of their pay as shares or has an RSU better go to their employer and demand a payrise, there's risk involved so they can't possibly be salary.

    It's a pity Revenue don't take the Sarries view when assessing share option grants :(


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    #5207
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,789 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    It depends on what the shares represent. I had a look at Vunprop Ltd. accounts and other filings here. The company owns two properties in London valued at £1.5 million with bank loans totalling £1 million and other loans at approximately £0.5 million. The shareholders are the Vunipola brothers and Nigel Wray. The other loans were listed as falling due within one year of the balance sheet date in the accounts.

    Two banks have fixed and floating charges on the properties. Hampshire Trust has a fixed charge on 103 Trundleys Road and a floating charge on all property of the company and One Savings Bank has a fixed charge on 45 Alloa Road. There are no details of charges relating to the other loans. They may be just the current repayable portions of the bank loans that are due in the following year, but that would seem extremely high relative to the total value.

    The company was originally incorporated by Nigel Wray and the Vunipola brothers were added about a month later.


    I'd hazard a guess that the "Other Loans" might be from another company or investment vehicle owned and controlled by Wray.
    If the loans are specified as "Repayable on Demand" it would mean they are classified as repayable within 1 year, without them necessarily needing to be repaid within 12 months.

    Given there's no P&L and no disclosures required on Director's remuneration, we can but speculate as to whether there's been salaries paid to the two directors through this company.............


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    #5208
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    blackwhite wrote: »
    I'd hazard a guess that the "Other Loans" might be from another company or investment vehicle owned and controlled by Wray.
    If the loans are specified as "Repayable on Demand" it would mean they are classified as repayable within 1 year, without them necessarily needing to be repaid within 12 months.

    Given there's no P&L and no disclosures required on Director's remuneration, we can but speculate as to whether there's been salaries paid to the two directors through this company.............
    Yeah. Hard to say anything definitive on it without a subsequent set of accounts. You can extrapolate a lot more when you have two or more years to compare. But it seems odd that there doesn't seem to be a charge registered in relation to those other loans. There may be personal guarantees though and they wouldn't be a charge on the company.


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    #5209
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    blackwhite wrote: »
    It's a pity Revenue don't take the Sarries view when assessing share option grants :(
    Don't Revenue only take an interest when the options are exercised? I.e when the value is realised.


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    #5210
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,789 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Don't Revenue only take an interest when the options are exercised? I.e when the value is realised.

    yup - when they are converted to shares they fall liable to income tax. Should have clarified that I mean Revenues taking a view on exercise of option grants - which would be a compatible situation to Sarries granting a share in an investment co

    No requirement for the shares to be sold for income tax to become liable - which again would fall similar to the Sarries situation


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    #5211
    Sir Guy who smiles
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Sir Guy who smiles


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Don't tell them the idea behind the nfl draft

    It's a code word. They want to say, but can't, that it is a Hispanic sport.

    Hence, "un-American".


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    #5212
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 6,056 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Dylan Hartley retires from Rugby.


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    #5213
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    OldRio wrote: »
    Dylan Hartley retires from Rugby.

    And we hope the door doesn't hit him on the arsé on the way out.


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    #5214
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    OldRio wrote: »
    Dylan Hartley retires from Rugby.

    Was he as bad, worse or not as bad as the reputation which preceded him?


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    #5215
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Was he as bad, worse or not as bad as the reputation which preceded him?


    Know a few blokes who knew him, by all accounts one of the soundest lads you could meet


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    #5216
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Was he as bad, worse or not as bad as the reputation which preceded him?

    If he was as bad as his reputation then he probably would be unable to make it down a street without slapping a woman or kicking a small child, when in reality he captained every team he ever played for.

    So a dope, but likely the sort of dope you’d be happy to have by your side. We’ve had a few of those ourselves!


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    #5217
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    If he was as bad as his reputation then he probably would be unable to make it down a street without slapping a woman or kicking a small child, when in reality he captained every team he ever played for.

    So a dope, but likely the sort of dope you’d be happy to have by your side. We’ve had a few of those ourselves!

    It might be green tinted specs, but have we had anyone as egregiously bad? (Trevor Brenan is the obvious one that comes to mind). But I don't think we've had anyone as bad captaining Ireland or the provinces, at least?

    I've always found him getting the captaincy at odds with his discipline problems. He's got a whole section in his Wikipedia entry titled "Controversy" that starts:

    "Hartley has had his fair share of disciplinary problems over the years, amounting to a total of 60 banned weeks since 2007". That's an crazy about of bans for a captain to give away.


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    #5218
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 6,056 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Was he as bad, worse or not as bad as the reputation which preceded him?

    As ibf stated a dope. IMHO not the brightest and probably his own worse enemy at times.
    The repercussions of his spat with Mr. W. Barnes being a prime example.
    Good luck to him in his retirement


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    #5219
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,586 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    scottish RFC have their arses slapped:

    https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/scottish-rugby-formally-reprimanded-and-fined-for-typhoon-hagibis-comments/622105
    Two charges were brought by World Rugby (under Rugby World Cup Limited) in line with the Rugby World Cup 2019 Terms of Participation and World Rugby Regulation 20.2 (Misconduct and Code of Conduct):

    Comments made by Mark Dodson in the UK Telegraph newspaper, the BBC Radio 4 Today programme, and at the Scotland team announcement on 11 October 2019
    Comments attributed to an SRU spokesperson in the UK Telegraph newspaper on 10 October 2019 and the SRU’s Counsel Nick De Marco QC in the UK The Sun newspaper on 11 October 2019 and the UK Telegraph newspaper on 12 October 2019

    World Rugby strongly believed the comments, which suggested an unfair and disorganised treatment of all teams, to be inappropriate and ill-judged at a time when Japan was preparing for the largest and most destructive typhoon in decades.


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    #5220
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    scottish RFC have their arses slapped:

    https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/scottish-rugby-formally-reprimanded-and-fined-for-typhoon-hagibis-comments/622105

    Scotland handled that terribly. Townsend in particular was foolish to hand wave away Ireland's concerns over the Samoa game and then act the hypocrite when their own fixture was in jeopardy.

    As bad as Ireland's world cup was - Scotland had a mare. They barely fired a shot against Japan until the game was over.

    You would wonder where they go from here. Cotter did a great job of creating a team out of Scotland - in particular he gave their forwards an edge. Townsend brought a style of play that allowed their backs to thrive off the extra power and accuracy up front but their pack seems to have gone backwards the last 18 months (McFarland was a big loss in my opinion).

    Ireland at least have successful provinces and a few titles the last few years and a new coach to change things up.

    Scotland just look like they are going backwards.

    They should pay Steve Hansen a hefty sum to come up and sort out their pack for a year or two.


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    #5221
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Scotland just look like they are going backwards.

    They should pay Steve Hansen a hefty sum to come up and sort out their pack for a year or two.

    Italy away in next year's 6n..

    A Scottish wooden spoon could well be on the cards?


This discussion has been closed.
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