General Rugby Discussion II

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

We should discuss who would go on a Lions tour if it was held now

OOooooh good idea Burkie.


From an Irish perspective I'd have Furlong, Ryan, Sexton, Ringrose, Larmour as being very likely to travel. Sad state of affairs that I see no backrow in Ireland who has made enough of a case albeit VDF would be closest.

No doubt Wales will have a few but not to the degree they've had the last two tours under Gatland.

AWJ probably goes as tour captain. Ken Owens, maybe Navidi if fit. Liam Williams from the backs, maybe Biggar. They really don't have the names they had at all.

Scotland not faring much better - Johnny Grey, Hamish Watson. Hogg and Maitland. Russell would have a shout only he's gone and made a complete clown of himself.

England would have the 'lions' share (ho ho) without doubt albeit their loss to SA in the RWC final might have Gatland wanting to go a different way in some positions.

I've likely forgotten heaps of obvious names.

Thanks again Burkie - great idea for a topic :pac:

Squidgy Black

Tighthead is an interesting one, you'd probably say Furlong and Cole are nailed on, but then the 3rd spot is up for grabs between Sinckler, Fagerson, Francis and Porter.

Loosehead I think Mako's probably the only one nailed on, Marler if he decides to put himself into contention would be up there, and then it's a toss up between Sutherland, Healy, Genge.

Hooker you've got Jamie George and Ken Owens, possibly either McInally or Cowan-Dickie could get a call up. Think it's too early for Kelleher to be in the running especially with the shorter season for 20/21.

Locks you're looking at Itoje, AWJ, Ryan, I'd say Lawes will probably get a shout too. Henderson vs Gray is probably the battle for the 5th spot, but I wouldn't count out George Kruis either.

Backrow you'd have to imagine Billy Vunipola, Underhill and Curry are all first off the board, then Navidi, Tipuric, Faletau, Hamish Watson, then I'd say the last spot would be a toss up between any of VdF, Leavy, Moriarty or Stander. I'd say it'd probably be one of VdF or Leavy depending on form but with Gats who knows.

Bazzo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Tighthead is an interesting one, you'd probably say Furlong and Cole are nailed on, but then the 3rd spot is up for grabs between Sinckler, Fagerson, Francis and Porter.

Not even sure if Cole made the England squad? Maybe you're mixing him up with Sinckler who I would imagine would be 50/50 with Furlong to start.

Squidgy Black

Bazzo wrote: »

Not even sure if Cole made the England squad? Maybe you're mixing him up with Sinckler who I would imagine would be 50/50 with Furlong to start.

Yep was thinking of last years 6N.

UAEguy2020

It’s impossible to call at this point as I don’t think any of the 4 nations are in a great state of afairs, this coming season could play a big part on who goes and who doesn’t and potentially more so than previous years. Just look at Furlong, we weren’t even sure if he would be a starter for Ireland and in the end he was the nailed on first choice tight head for the lions. I personally think if he can stay injury free that Leavy is the big one to watch out for, he just offers the power and handling that I don’t think any flanker in any of the four nations have and I think we felt his absence the last while from an Irish perspective.

errlloyd

Squidgy Black wrote: »

but I wouldn't count out George Kruis either.

Good post, but Kruis is off to Japan IIRC, so he's out.

Thrashssacre

James lowe not be a good shout for his strength with ball in hand? Surely would be of use against the boks, seems like a player gatland would be a fan of too.

Squidgy Black

errlloyd wrote: »

Good post, but Kruis is off to Japan IIRC, so he's out.

Was rumoured to have been back on February but there's been no development on it since, and because Top League doesn't start up again until next January (having called off this season already), who knows what could happen.

aloooof

errlloyd wrote: »

Good post, but Kruis is off to Japan IIRC, so he's out.

Is there anything to stop Gatland calling him up anyway tho (if his contract allowed it)? Playing at that level wouldn't help his cause, obviously, but I don't think there's anything to stop him being called up? Can't recall if something like that has happened in the past, other than the Shane Williams call-up in 2013.

errlloyd

aloooof wrote: »

Is there anything to stop Gatland calling him up anyway tho (if his contract allowed it)? Playing at that level wouldn't help his cause, obviously, but I don't think there's anything to stop him being called up? Can't recall if something like that has happened in the past, other than the Shane Williams call-up in 2013.

They specifically did not call up players ineligible for their national teams on previous tours, for example Steffan Armitage.

Williams did play, but it was a Tom Court style parachute player.

Thrashssacre

Thrashssacre wrote: »

James lowe not be a good shout for his strength with ball in hand? Surely would be of use against the boks, seems like a player gatland would be a fan of too.

Lowe and May would be the starting wingers in my team most likely but Lowe isn't qualified until November and Burkie specifically said if the team was picked now.

aloooof

errlloyd wrote: »

They specifically did not call up players ineligible for their national teams on previous tours, for example Steffan Armitage.

Williams did play, but it was a Tom Court style parachute player.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that, didn't call him up when he was European player of the year. Adbendonan another example.

lawrencesummers

Im sure a lot of you will have a major hissyfit over this, but im not convinced about Lowes kicking ability and from what ive seen it needed (needs) work.

He is most likely going to be the retirement of Keith Earls and it will be interesting to see how he goes internationally, as for a Lions tour its entirely possible but ive a sneaky suspicion that kicking is the weakest part of his game and it could cause problems at the highest level.

As far as Irish Backrow options go there are a few that are very much in contention to travel, Doris, Conan, VDF, CJ, POM and Leavy. Maybe an outside shot for JOD, Jarred Butler, Jordi.

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

As far as Irish Backrow options go there are a few that are very much in contention to travel, Doris, Conan, VDF, CJ, POM and Leavy. Maybe an outside shot for JOD, Jarred Butler, Jordi.

That has to be one of the most ludicrously optimistic takes on Lions selection I've ever seen. Jarrad Butler!! Three Irish no.8s are also most definitely not going to be "in contention".

Squidgy Black

Podge_irl wrote: »

That has to be one of the most ludicrously optimistic takes on Lions selection I've ever seen. Jarrad Butler!!

I heard Tommy O'Donnell is on the fringe of a call up too.

AdamD

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Im sure a lot of you will have a major hissyfit over this, but im not convinced about Lowes kicking ability and from what ive seen it needed (needs) work.

He is most likely going to be the retirement of Keith Earls and it will be interesting to see how he goes internationally, as for a Lions tour its entirely possible but ive a sneaky suspicion that kicking is the weakest part of his game and it could cause problems at the highest level.

As far as Irish Backrow options go there are a few that are very much in contention to travel, Doris, Conan, VDF, CJ, POM and Leavy. Maybe an outside shot for JOD, Jarred Butler, Jordi.

Lowe is a much, much better kicker than Earls so that doesn't really add up. He's also a left winger so will likely be competing with Stockdale

sydthebeat

Lowe actually came over with a reputation for having a howitzer of a left peg.

He doesnt actually do it much because he has the skills AND power not to need to kick away possession that often.

Squidgy Black

sydthebeat wrote: »

Lowe actually came over with a reputation for having a howitzer of a left peg.

He doesnt actually do it much because he has the skills AND power not to need to kick away possession that often.

He had a couple of booming kicks last season when Leinster had him in the backfield fielding kicks.

If anything I'd say Lowe's potential weaknesses at the next level would be his unpredictability and potentially forcing things a bit too much but it's not something you can say will be an issue until he plays at that level.

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Lowe actually came over with a reputation for having a howitzer of a left peg.

He doesnt actually do it much because he has the skills AND power not to need to kick away possession that often.

Yup, he had a boomer of a left peg for the Hurricanes whenever I watched him. That and his love of the offload were the things that stood out for me.

He definitely hasn't used that as much although he has tried kicking down the tramlines a good few times with very mixed results. It's a tricky skill; I think he's better at just hoofing it rather than a cultured prod down the line.

sydthebeat

Chiefs.....

sydthebeat

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/rugby-europe-back-sir-bill-beaumont-in-world-rugby-chairman-vote/626869

couple of days old news, but a bit of a kick in the groin for Pichot.

RugbyLover123

lawrencesummers wrote: »

As far as Irish Backrow options go there are a few that are very much in contention to travel, Doris, Conan, VDF, CJ, POM and Leavy. Maybe an outside shot for JOD, Jarred Butler, Jordi.

There is as much chance of me going on the Lions tour as there is for those outside shots you’ve named.

Back Row/2nd Row is by far the most competitive position for the Lions. I wouldn’t be surprised if they played a 2nd Row at 6 to combat the size and power of South Africa.

They brought 13 Locks & BR to NZ. Applying that same logic to this tour and if it was to be played say next week I would bring:

Itoje
AWJ
Ryan
Lawes (Looked at as a 6)
Kruis
Henderson (Looked at as a 6)
Curry
Underhill
Vunipola
Falateu
Navidi
POM
Tipuric

I’m not a huge POM fan but his work in the line out could be useful in the tests as an option. I don’t see Stander as being as effective in SA as he would’ve been in NZ. Watson is unlucky, but with Curry, Underhill and Tips I’m not sure another 7 is needed.

Barring injuries I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t far off that in a years time. Hopefully Leavy will come back to his previous form and push. I think it’ll be too soon for Doris and if Falateu is fit Gatland will bring him instead. Wainwright has been name checked by Gatland so I wouldn’t be surprised if he pushed Navidi out.

sydthebeat

faletau isnt the shadow of the player he was before his injuries.

if the plane was leaving tomorrow, he wouldnt be on it

RugbyLover123

sydthebeat wrote: »

faletau isnt the shadow of the player he was before his injuries.

if the plane was leaving tomorrow, he wouldnt be on it

Do I think he’s the player he was? No. But I would be willing to give him an opportunity to play himself into form under a Gatland coached team. He’d also be a distant second choice behind Billy. Who else would you have? It’s not as if there’s plenty of other options unless you want to go for Curry at 8. Too early for Doris and CJ at 8 against the Boks in a lions series doesn’t fill me with confidence.

sydthebeat

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Do I think he’s the player he was? No. But I would be willing to give him an opportunity to play himself into form under a Gatland coached team. He’d also be a distant second choice behind Billy. Who else would you have? It’s not as if there’s plenty of other options unless you want to go for Curry at 8. Too early for Doris and CJ at 8 against the Boks in a lions series doesn’t fill me with confidence.

Standar is both taller and heavier than Faletau, so hes certainly not undersized,

I also agree that any choice is a distant second behind Billy V, so from that point of view having CJ in the 20 shirt is useful.

id have CJ before the likes of Moriarity, Haining, or Curry at 8

TomsOnTheRoof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Standar is both taller and heavier than Faletau, so hes certainly not undersized,

I also agree that any choice is a distant second behind Billy V, so from that point of view having CJ in the 20 shirt is useful.

id have CJ before the likes of Moriarity, Haining, or Curry at 8

Agree that Vunipola is the frontrunner for 8 and by a good margin. Also agree on Stander being ahead of the likes of Moriarty and Haining. For whatever reason CJ is massively underrated in this country. He's been one of our best players over the last year and was our standout forward throughout the WC and the 6 Nations. Obviously this doesn't guarantee anything but if he can keep fit and maintain his form there's no reason be pessimistic regarding his chances of touring. In fact I'd argue that if he can maintain the levels he showed before all this ****e started then he would be one of the more likely Irish players to travel.

RugbyLover123

sydthebeat wrote: »

Standar is both taller and heavier than Faletau, so hes certainly not undersized,

I also agree that any choice is a distant second behind Billy V, so from that point of view having CJ in the 20 shirt is useful.

id have CJ before the likes of Moriarity, Haining, or Curry at 8

Stander is listed at 6’1 and Falateu is listed at 6’2? There is also 1kg in the difference. Any way Falateu’s game offers more then Stander who is predictable and will be overpowered by the Boks.

aloooof

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Stander is listed at 6’1 and Falateu is listed at 6’2? There is also 1kg in the difference. Any way Falateu’s game offers more then Stander who is predictable and will be overpowered by the Boks.

Faletau's game used to offer more than Stander. I don't think we can say with any certainty that it still does. It reminds me a bit of the Sean O'Brien situation.

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Chiefs.....

Yeah. The Chief....icanes.

Richie_Rich89

Saw this on Planet Rugby forum. List of highest bench press by rugby players from an article on the NZ Herald.

Ronan O'Gara (Munster) 360kg

Gheorghe Gajion (Ospreys) 230kg

Aled de Malmanche (Stade Francis, retired) 220kg

Andrew Sheridan (Sale Shark, retired) 215kg

Alfie To'oala Vaeluaga (Samoa) 210kg

WillGriff John (Sale Sharks) 210kg

Max Lahiff (Bristol Bears) 210kg

Nicky Smith (Ospreys) 200kg

Rory Sutherland (Edinburgh) 200kg

Jon Welsh (Newcastle Falcons) 200kg

Tom Court (Ulster, retired) 200kg

Jack Whetton (Highlanders) 200kg

Ben Tameifuna (Racing 92) 190kg

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers) 190kg

Siate Tokolahi (Highlanders) 190kg

Cian Healy (Leinster) 190kg

David Kilcoyne (Munster) 187.5kg

Jackson Wray (Saracens) 187.5kg

Maro Itoje (Saracens) 187.5kg

David Pocock (Panasonic Wildknights) 185kg

Ugo Monye (Harlequins, retired) 185kg

Joe Moody (Crusaders) 180kg

Pouri Rakete-Stones (Hawk's Bay) 180kg

Will Genia (Rebels) 180kg

Digby Ioane (Glendale Raptors) 180kg

Mike McCarthy (Leinster, retired) 180kg

Tendai Mtawarira (Old Glory) 180kg

Gareth Denman (Coventry) 180kg

Tom James (Scarlets) 180kg

Paul O'Connell (Munster, retired) 179kg

Nemani Nadolo (Montpellier) 175kg

Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) 175kg

Jaycob Matiu (Northland) 170kg

Ben Funnell (Crusaders) 165kg

Pierre Spies (Montpellier, retired) 165kg

Matt Vaai (Counties Manukau) 162.5kg

Pete Samu (Brumbies) 160kg

Sam Whitelock (Panasonic Wildknights) 160kg

Matt Todd (Crusaders) 150kg

Caleb Timu (Montpellier) 150kg

Andy Goode (Newcastle Falcons) 150kg

Dan Carter (free agent) 145kg

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) 140kg

Jim Hamilton (Saracens, retired) 140kg

Sonny Bill Williams (ex-Blues) 140kg

Richie Mo'unga (Crusaders) 137kg

Wonder what Andrew Porter's best is. He's done quite a bit of powerlifting, I believe.