General Rugby Discussion II

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

Absolute bollocks. The world record for a single rep bench press is 350kg and it was from a professional powerlifter who can barely walk.

The only thing more powerful than ROG's rippling chest muscles is his mental strength from silencing doubters such as yourself for years.

Clegg

There is a different list that Hayes made it onto. Neil Tracy's best 15 of the Pro Era. Hayes was a great servant and player, but there is a large gap in quality between he and Furlong. I can't understand why he omitted Furlong. Ditto SOB in the back row. He's the most dominant backrow we've ever produced and the definition of a big game player. He gets in ahead of both Ferris and Wallace at 6 and 7 for me.

1. Healy
2. Wood
3. Hayes
4. O'Kelly
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Hickie
12. D'Arcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

thomond2006

Clegg, never go full Buer.

clsmooth

Clegg wrote: »

There is a different list that Hayes made it onto. Neil Tracy's best 15 of the Pro Era. Hayes was a great servant and player, but there is a large gap in quality between he and Furlong. I can't understand why he omitted Furlong. Ditto SOB in the back row. He's the most dominant backrow we've ever produced and the definition of a big game player. He gets in ahead of both Ferris and Wallace at 6 and 7 for me.

1. Healy
2. Wood
3. Hayes
4. O'Kelly
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Hickie
12. D'Arcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

Agreed, Furlong and SOB in and you have my team. He didn't even have SOB on the bench :eek: Earls unlucky to miss out at 11. There was discussion of Bowe not making the team either which is lunacy when you consider he was a Lions starter on two tours. Cracking player.

Buer

He made the case that Furlong wasn't in there in part due to being only 27 and possibly not even halfway through his career in green which is fair enough although (and I don't say this with any attempt at being tongue in cheek) Hayes doesn't exactly inspire as our best tighthead of the past 25 years. Tracy highlighted his longevity as a core reason for his selection but the fact is that he had very little competition. Due to 22 man squads and a very conservative selection policy between both EOS and DK, Hayes was the man in possession for rather extraordinary lengths of time. In 2005, Hayes was with the Lions and EOS selected Simon Best against Japan with 34 year old Reggie Corrigan on the bench and that was the selection for both tests. Hayes was a very good performer but he was undoubtedly the beneficiary of certain circumstances.

I've no real issue with Wallace being ahead of SOB. They were both excellent performers. SOB really wasn't half the player he was after 2015 and missed over a year in green before that too (Nov 2013 - Feb 2015). The Lions in 2017 was a step up back to his old self but it stands out in stark contrast to most of his rugby from 2016-2020.

Wallace was a superb player and has every right to be in the team. It's easy to forget just how good he was. He never looked like he was breaking sweat despite being everywhere on the field. Ferris was an incredible athlete but with only approx. 30 caps for Ireland, his career is far more one unfulfilled than a guy I'd say has to be in the best Irish team of the past 25 years.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

He made the case that Furlong wasn't in there in part due to being only 27 and possibly not even halfway through his career in green which is fair enough although (and I don't say this with any attempt at being tongue in cheek) Hayes doesn't exactly inspire as our best tighthead of the past 25 years. Tracy highlighted his longevity as a core reason for his selection but the fact is that he had very little competition. Due to 22 man squads and a very conservative selection policy between both EOS and DK, Hayes was the man in possession for rather extraordinary lengths of time. In 2005, Hayes was with the Lions and EOS selected Simon Best against Japan with 34 year old Reggie Corrigan on the bench and that was the selection for both tests. Hayes was a very good performer but he was undoubtedly the beneficiary of certain circumstances.

I've no real issue with Wallace being ahead of SOB. They were both excellent performers. SOB really wasn't half the player he was after 2015 and missed over a year in green before that too (Nov 2013 - Feb 2015). The Lions in 2017 was a step up back to his old self but it stands out in stark contrast to most of his rugby from 2016-2020.

Wallace was a superb player and has every right to be in the team. It's easy to forget just how good he was. He never looked like he was breaking sweat despite being everywhere on the field. Ferris was an incredible athlete but with only approx. 30 caps for Ireland, his career is far more one unfulfilled than a guy I'd say has to be in the best Irish team of the past 25 years.

If I was picking a best team of all time I'd base my selection on where a players general ceiling was. Not their one off best game, but the level they played to consistently at their best form. On that basis SOB would be my first pick at openside and it wouldn't really be a contest. He is one of the most gifted players we've ever produced, a world class talent. Plenty of flaws but a game changing rugby player in a way that Wallace would not have been. And I say that as a signed up member of the David Wallace fan club.

Furlong has a pretty incredible skill set for a forward. Does he have the same raw power as Hayes? Up for debate, but he is a much more influential player on the pitch. Plenty of try assists and tries, massive rugby IQ for a tighthead.

I also think Ryan has the higher ceiling and has probably already shown a more complete game than Mal had.

Will Larmour take the mantle off Kearney? Big ask in my opinion.

Podge_irl

Even using some weird metric to discount Furlong (and its definitely wrong), Mike Ross was a better tighthead than Hayes.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Mike Ross was a better tighthead than Hayes.

Buer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If I was picking a best team of all time I'd base my selection on where a players general ceiling was. Not their one off best game, but the level they played to consistently at their best form. On that basis SOB would be my first pick at openside and it wouldn't really be a contest. He is one of the most gifted players we've ever produced, a world class talent. Plenty of flaws but a game changing rugby player in a way that Wallace would not have been. And I say that as a signed up member of the David Wallace fan club.

Furlong has a pretty incredible skill set for a forward. Does he have the same raw power as Hayes? Up for debate, but he is a much more influential player on the pitch. Plenty of try assists and tries, massive rugby IQ for a tighthead.

I also think Ryan has the higher ceiling and has probably already shown a more complete game than Mal had.

Will Larmour take the mantle off Kearney? Big ask in my opinion.

Yeah, no real disagreement there. I thought Wallace was a world class performer. SOB was the better player when both at their peak. I'd have both in the team with Ferris on the bench.

The rationale for Ryan not making it was purely on the basis of him being 23. NT admitted in a few years he'd be automatically in the team.

I would say that Furlong is just as powerful as Hayes. The thing is that Hayes was that powerful when some others were barely lifting in the gym. Now everyone is incredibly strong.

Larmour will have to continue his trajectory to overtake Kearney. There's little debate at the moment. Kearney is probably the next most clear cut choice after BOD and POC.

aloooof

I always think of that amazing stat whenever Hayes and Mike Ross are discussed - from Gerry Thornley:

"For 16 seasons of the Six Nations in succession, from 2000 to 2015, there were only John Hayes and Mike Ross at tighthead. They were the only two Irish players to wear the number three jersey for an astonishing 79 games in a row".

One or other started every game in that period with the notable exception of the first 6 Nations game in 2000 against England. Paul Wallace started the infamous game where Ireland shipped a heavy defeat and Gatland rung the changes against Scotland.

For a decade Hayes started all but one 6 Nations game.

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Even using some weird metric to discount Furlong (and its definitely wrong), Mike Ross was a better tighthead than Hayes.

Very different players so I think it's hard to compare. Ross probably never fulfilled his full potential as he was almost 27 before he really started playing professionally. Hayes was a late starter too but was there at the outset of professionalism so there wasn't the same disadvantage.

I suppose the fact that NT put Furlong on his bench sort of invalidates his argument about Furlong not having been playing long enough to be included.

Former Former

If the primary role of the tighthead is to hold up the scrum, then Ross was the better TH by some distance.

But Furlong blows them both out of the water.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

Very different players so I think it's hard to compare. Ross probably never fulfilled his full potential as he was almost 27 before he really started playing professionally. Hayes was a late starter too but was there at the outset of professionalism so there wasn't the same disadvantage.

I suppose the fact that NT put Furlong on his bench sort of invalidates his argument about Furlong not having been playing long enough to be included.

Having actually listened to it now, he makes the point that when Hayes played the job was about the nuts and bolts - scrummaging, getting around the field and lineouts. And Hayes only excelled at one of those. It is a romanticised view of a player whose main characteristic was that he was (by far) the best of an awful group.

Ross was better in the scrum and more useful in open play. Hayes has longevity over him, but at 61 caps Ross is hardly a blow in. Its just an awful decision - the correct answer is obviously Furlong but even Ross should be ahead of Hayes.

Richie_Rich89

It'll be interesting to see who Gatland selects as his assistant coaches for the Lions. Proudfoot is the obvious one to look at as scrum coach. Who better to get in to take on the Boks than the guy who masterminded their scrum dominance in the World Cup Final?

Stephen Jones as backs/attack coach perhaps? It was him coaching the Scarlets attack that tore Erasmus's and Nienaber's Munster to shreds in the 2017 Pro12 Final.

Then maybe Alex Sanderson as defence coach doing a bit with the forwards as well? Saracens' ultra aggressive defence in last seasons Heineken Cup Final against Leinster was hugely impressive.

Buer

Ah Hayes was decent around the park. In his last few years, he was a non-entity in carrying but he was always very good for support and clearing rucks and getting around the field for 70-80 minutes.

Ross developed an ability to carry in close quarters to set up rucks and even pop the ball off on a rare occasion later in his career but I don't think he ever got around the field as well as Hayes and also had the benefit of 23 man squads for much longer than Hayes did meaning he could empty the tank knowing he had a replacement coming.

By the time 23 man squads came, Hayes was nearly finished. They arrived in test rugby a year after his last cap.

I would have them on par for their respective strengths although, as I said, I think Ross could have been even better if afforded the opportunity earlier. Furlong is obviously on another level.

Buer

There's a Kiwi lad knocking around Dublin who is at a loose end and isn't a half bad attack coach.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

Ross developed an ability to carry in close quarters to set up rucks and even pop the ball off on a rare occasion later in his career but I don't think he ever got around the field as well as Hayes and also had the benefit of 23 man squads for much longer than Hayes did meaning he could empty the tank knowing he had a replacement coming.

This is a fair point, and my memories of Hayes are certainly weighted more towards the end of his career which probably isn't helping. That and not forgiving him for missing the tackle on Clerc...

Dave_The_Sheep

Podge_irl wrote: »

This is a fair point, and my memories of Hayes are certainly weighted more towards the end of his career which probably isn't helping. That and not forgiving him for missing the tackle on Clerc...

I thought we were collectively pinning that loss on Geordan Murphy?

Podge_irl

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I thought we were collectively pinning that loss on Geordan Murphy?

I pin a lot of losses on Geordan Murphy, its hard to keep track. His first half of the 2006 43-31 French loss ranks up there as one of the worst performances I have ever seen.

troyzer

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pro14-could-be-abandoned-with-leinster-retaining-title-while-connacht-could-lose-out-in-champions-cup-revamp-39173529.html

So Leinster to be handed the Pro14 (common sense) and next season's Heineken cup to be reduced to 18 teams to allow THIS season's Heineken cup to be finished in September/October.

I like the idea of Saracens playing Leinster a week after playing Ealing in the Championship.

irishbucsfan

I don’t know why they need to award competitions to anyone

troyzer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don’t know why they need to award competitions to anyone

That's what all of the sports leagues have been doing that cancel the rest of their season.

I accept it's different in the case of the Pro14 because there's a playoff structure, but it's all the same really. Leinster were streets ahead.

I wonder if there's something in the competition terms on this.

irishbucsfan

troyzer wrote: »

That's what all of the sports leagues have been doing that cancel the rest of their season.

I accept it's different in the case of the Pro14 because there's a playoff structure, but it's all the same really. Leinster were streets ahead.

I wonder if there's something in the competition terms on this.

Maybe it’s in the terms for reward money etc alright.

From a fans perspective I’d prefer they just cancel the season outright and leave the winners category blank. Leinster were by absolutely no means walking to a victory, we’ve been caught by Welsh teams in the post season many times. Pivac’s Scarlets most recently. Ospreys when they denied us the double.

AbusesToilets

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see who Gatland selects as his assistant coaches for the Lions. Proudfoot is the obvious one to look at as scrum coach. Who better to get in to take on the Boks than the guy who masterminded their scrum dominance in the World Cup Final?

Stephen Jones as backs/attack coach perhaps? It was him coaching the Scarlets attack that tore Erasmus's and Nienaber's Munster to shreds in the 2017 Pro12 Final.

Then maybe Alex Sanderson as defence coach doing a bit with the forwards as well? Saracens' ultra aggressive defence in last seasons Heineken Cup Final against Leinster was hugely impressive.

I'll be more interested in how many Welsh players he shoehorns into the squad.

AbusesToilets

Podge_irl wrote: »

I pin a lot of losses on Geordan Murphy, its hard to keep track. His first half of the 2006 43-31 French loss ranks up there as one of the worst performances I have ever seen.

I watch some of the matches from 2003, pre his leg break, and he was on fire. Up there with BOD as the best player on the pitch. That 2003 WC was a real missed opportunity.

pickarooney

troyzer wrote: »

That's what all of the sports leagues have been doing that cancel the rest of their season.

I accept it's different in the case of the Pro14 because there's a playoff structure, but it's all the same really. Leinster were streets ahead.

I wonder if there's something in the competition terms on this.

So is it actually Liverpool's year?

Podge_irl

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I watch some of the matches from 2003, pre his leg break, and he was on fire. Up there with BOD as the best player on the pitch. That 2003 WC was a real missed opportunity.

My memory of rugby pre-2003 wouldn't be great to be honest but I have heard similar alright. I never really understood the revereance the likes of Thornley held him in after that though - he was the very definition of flaky. He was an Irish Balshaw. He seemed fairly criticism proof though. How Bowe got dropped after that France game and he kept his place will forever astound me.

Panda Killa

I see Mamuka Gorgodze has announced his retirement from rugby today...

Bazzo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Having actually listened to it now, he makes the point that when Hayes played the job was about the nuts and bolts - scrummaging, getting around the field and lineouts. And Hayes only excelled at one of those. It is a romanticised view of a player whose main characteristic was that he was (by far) the best of an awful group.

Ross was better in the scrum and more useful in open play. Hayes has longevity over him, but at 61 caps Ross is hardly a blow in. Its just an awful decision - the correct answer is obviously Furlong but even Ross should be ahead of Hayes.

Really not sure about that. If anything I would have thought that Hayes was more useful around the park but there was very little between them.

Quin_Dub

Bazzo wrote: »

Really not sure about that. If anything I would have thought that Hayes was more useful around the park but there was very little between them.

Both were quite limited players ,but of their time..

TH's back then weren't really doing a whole lot round the park - They scrummaged , they lifted at the lineout and they hit the 1st and 2nd breakdowns, that was about it..

Ross was by far the better scrummager , Hayes much better at the lineout ,his height and power making a big impact (all those bales of hay horsed into the back of the trailer were great training!!)

Neither did a whole lot around the park , but then neither did any other tight-heads either..

A lot more is expected of all forwards these days TH's included and as such all the current crop do far more round the park than before..

Furlong is a far better all-round player...