General Rugby Discussion II

salmocab

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Agreed on the above in terms of the competition for ticket Sales vs. GAA or indeed Soccer to a certain extent

Is this Summer approach only being considered for the Pro Game?

Trying to move the Amateur game in Ireland would be utter madness..

Yeah it’s only pro.

Losty Dublin

Buer wrote: »

Interesting to see the rumours floating about the proposed aligned international calendar. The biggest change would be that club rugby would run over the course of the summer which would be a massive change and I can see there being significant opposition against this in Ireland.

From a selfish perspective, it would be great to have club rugby during the summer months and bring the kids along to games without worrying about being drowned. But I can see the provinces looking at the competition they'd face for crowds from the GAA and not being too enthusiastic. Munster in particular could find themselves coming off second best when we're at a time when Munster hurling is consistently so strong. I wouldn't think they'll be too thrilled with the prospect of filling Thomond on the same weekend as a number of Munster hurling championship fixtures.

I can see Leinster and Connacht similarly having issue with it. There's a significant crossover between those who would go to Croke Park and those who would go to the RDS.

But personally, I hope it gets the go ahead.

Absolutely the worst thing that could happen the game is to move to a summer calendar. There's enough going on as it is sports wise such as GAA, the height of the flat racing season, golf events and so on.

Plus you are contending with people taking off on summer holidays, games clashing with family events like weddings, first communions and confirmations, the many regional summer festivals, outdoors gigs. Add in the kids who go to their summer camps and those who play summer games such as cricket, tennis and most notably those who golf.

From a players side the pitches will be at best firm to rock hard and less suitable for the game in many respects. And regardless of what your man in the RFU infers, Rugby League is not thriving mainly because of summer seasons nor indeed are the League of Ireland, who are finding things harder than envisaged for many of the above reasons.

In any case Leinster don't have access to the RDS for the summer so they'd be royally stuck should this even get to proposal stage.

CatFromHue

Not sure how much influence the IRFU will have in this. If it's decided by majority then they could easily be ignored.

It also had to said there has to compromise somewhere for a global calendar to go ahead.

Does anyone have the proposed calendar or know anything about what it might look like?

AdamD

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Absolutely the worst thing that could happen the game is to move to a summer calendar. There's enough going on as it is sports wise such as GAA, the height of the flat racing season, golf events and so on.

Plus you are contending with people taking off on summer holidays, games clashing with family events like weddings, first communions and confirmations, the many regional summer festivals, outdoors gigs. Add in the kids who go to their summer camps and those who play summer games such as cricket, tennis and most notably those who golf.

From a players side the pitches will be at best firm to rock hard and less suitable for the game in many respects. And regardless of what your man in the RFU infers, Rugby League is not thriving mainly because of summer seasons nor indeed are the League of Ireland, who are finding things harder than envisaged for many of the above reasons.

In any case Leinster don't have access to the RDS for the summer so they'd be royally stuck should this even get to proposal stage.

With the amount of summer weekends there are other events on such as music festivals etc. and being more likely to go away during the summer, it would bring into question the value of keeping a season ticket for me. Obviously would depend on the details

The Lost Sheep

Buer wrote: »

Interesting to see the rumours floating about the proposed aligned international calendar. The biggest change would be that club rugby would run over the course of the summer which would be a massive change and I can see there being significant opposition against this in Ireland.

From a selfish perspective, it would be great to have club rugby during the summer months and bring the kids along to games without worrying about being drowned. But I can see the provinces looking at the competition they'd face for crowds from the GAA and not being too enthusiastic. Munster in particular could find themselves coming off second best when we're at a time when Munster hurling is consistently so strong. I wouldn't think they'll be too thrilled with the prospect of filling Thomond on the same weekend as a number of Munster hurling championship fixtures.

I can see Leinster and Connacht similarly having issue with it. There's a significant crossover between those who would go to Croke Park and those who would go to the RDS.

But personally, I hope it gets the go ahead.

the challenge would be as much about club as inter county. Attendances at club

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Absolutely the worst thing that could happen the game is to move to a summer calendar. There's enough going on as it is sports wise such as GAA, the height of the flat racing season, golf events and so on.

Plus you are contending with people taking off on summer holidays, games clashing with family events like weddings, first communions and confirmations, the many regional summer festivals, outdoors gigs. Add in the kids who go to their summer camps and those who play summer games such as cricket, tennis and most notably those who golf.

From a players side the pitches will be at best firm to rock hard and less suitable for the game in many respects. And regardless of what your man in the RFU infers, Rugby League is not thriving mainly because of summer seasons nor indeed are the League of Ireland, who are finding things harder than envisaged for many of the above reasons.

In any case Leinster don't have access to the RDS for the summer so they'd be royally stuck should this even get to proposal stage.

I race a lot. But flat racing would not cause too much of an issue at all. If you said national hunt then maybe but even then most days attendances is not much at all. The festivals get decent crowds but most do not and flat racing even more so.
League of Ireland is doing far better than it was in the winter.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

Not sure how much influence the IRFU will have in this. If it's decided by majority then they could easily be ignored.

It also had to said there has to compromise somewhere for a global calendar to go ahead.

Does anyone have the proposed calendar or know anything about what it might look like?

The problem with this compromise is that the NH are doing basically all of the compromising. They are essentially aligning to the SH calendar.

Summer rugby on hard ground cant be great for player welfare either surely???

Losty Dublin

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I race a lot. But flat racing would not cause too much of an issue at all. If you said national hunt then maybe but even then most days attendances is not much at all. The festivals get decent crowds but most do not and flat racing even more so.
League of Ireland is doing far better than it was in the winter.

On the contrary flat racing is a draw in Dublin. There weekly summer meetings in Leopardstown that do well punters wise as well as several weekend meetings there too. Then of course there is the Curragh; the Classics draw big crowds as well.

As regards LOI it has not done better out of it. Two dozen clubs have either withdrawn from the League or have been liquidated since the summer season arrived in 2002. Granted some clubs have moved on well but it's down to their own initiative and investment and not from the seasons realignment.

Panda Killa

Jesus... hadn't even heard a peep about this

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/samoan-rugby-team-s-nightmare-journey-home-now-104-days-long-1.4271701?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR3Qc9jUBqKPnXZGCJbAZrPjxd5_dIithnFvaYe98CnYWUFklUD43nkI94c

Buer

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Absolutely the worst thing that could happen the game is to move to a summer calendar. There's enough going on as it is sports wise such as GAA, the height of the flat racing season, golf events and so on.

Plus you are contending with people taking off on summer holidays, games clashing with family events like weddings, first communions and confirmations, the many regional summer festivals, outdoors gigs. Add in the kids who go to their summer camps and those who play summer games such as cricket, tennis and most notably those who golf.

From a players side the pitches will be at best firm to rock hard and less suitable for the game in many respects. And regardless of what your man in the RFU infers, Rugby League is not thriving mainly because of summer seasons nor indeed are the League of Ireland, who are finding things harder than envisaged for many of the above reasons.

In any case Leinster don't have access to the RDS for the summer so they'd be royally stuck should this even get to proposal stage.

Some of your points are fair enough but I think some of them aren't going to be major factors in reality.

Confirmations and communions already happen at the same time as the normal season from March to May so there'd be little change there. Weddings are certainly more popular during the summer months but are year round again. I don't think it's going to be much of a consideration when thinking about a global calendar nor should it really be. December is a popular month for weddings in recent years for example and regularly clash with big provincial games; I've missed 3 or 4 matches interpros/European games due to weddings in recent years.

My understanding is that the season would be broken into two blocks with the bulk of the domestic season occupying the first block up to an international window and the business end of the season coming thereafter, similar to how the Super Rugby season operates. The bulk of domestic games would be completed by mid-summer.

In Leinster's case, I'd imagine they could/would move their games to the Aviva for the later games. This would reduce/eliminate the availability aspect of the RDS. There will almost certainly be potential scheduling conflicts with concerts in the RDS/Thomond if earlier in the summer but that's something that the league and provinces will need to address to minimise.

I really don't think the clashing with sports (in terms of playing numbers) is going to be a massive concern. People play sport all year round. Soccer and GAA are more popular than the sports mentioned above and golf, whilst obviously more popular in summer, is an all year round sport. Cricket and tennis are very much minority sports. The GAA club championships kick off in April, pause for the summer and recommence in autumn.

There's also the fact that club rugby would not be moving so those actually involved in domestic rugby would be more able to attend matches. We've often heard of supporters who have their own games on a Saturday afternoon/morning bemoan earlier kick offs as they're unable to travel to the Leinster match.

Regarding the hard pitches, definitely something to be taken into consideration and mitigated against. It's only at professional level so I'd like to think significant watering of the pitches will take place. We already have games in South Africa as well as matches on artificial surfaces so there is precedent already in place for matches on hard surfaces.

irishbucsfan

They’re not going to schedule the provinces against GAA games of any significance. No one wants it to happen. If Dublin are playing in Crocker on a Sunday, Leinster won’t be playing in the RDS on that Sunday. It may be a little trickier in Munster for a short period each year with a slightly busier hurling schedule earlier in the season, but it’s completely possible for rugby to work around the GAA schedule, which is what broadcasters will demand they do anyway

The Lost Sheep

Losty Dublin wrote: »

On the contrary flat racing is a draw in Dublin. There weekly summer meetings in Leopardstown that do well punters wise as well as several weekend meetings there too. Then of course there is the Curragh; the Classics draw big crowds as well.

As regards LOI it has not done better out of it. Two dozen clubs have either withdrawn from the League or have been liquidated since the summer season arrived in 2002. Granted some clubs have moved on well but it's down to their own initiative and investment and not from the seasons realignment.

it isnt that much. It doesnt have near interest of nh. Yes there is champions weekend and before that some trials for guineas but it doesnt drive interest of punters. Flat racing anywhere here doesnt.
The crowds jn the curragh dont match up with what you're saying and speaking as someone who works in the horse racing industry a bit I think I'd know.

LOI has done better. From football perspective teams in Europe doing far better in the move to summer months

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They’re not going to schedule the provinces against GAA games of any significance. No one wants it to happen. If Dublin are playing in Crocker on a Sunday, Leinster won’t be playing in the RDS on that Sunday. It may be a little trickier in Munster for a short period each year with a slightly busier hurling schedule earlier in the season, but it’s completely possible for rugby to work around the GAA schedule, which is what broadcasters will demand they do anyway

it would be far trickier in connacht and Munster. And wouldnt other counties in leinster also be an issue not just Dublin?

Quin_Dub

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They’re not going to schedule the provinces against GAA games of any significance. No one wants it to happen. If Dublin are playing in Crocker on a Sunday, Leinster won’t be playing in the RDS on that Sunday. It may be a little trickier in Munster for a short period each year with a slightly busier hurling schedule earlier in the season, but it’s completely possible for rugby to work around the GAA schedule, which is what broadcasters will demand they do anyway

Perhaps , but in terms of capturing the spend it's a major issue.

If you are a casual fan and you have €50 to spend on a given week-end for a live sporting event - September to April , Rugby is pretty much it as far as large live team sports in Ireland, not a whole lot of other choices.

Move the season to May- September and now you are competing for those same euros with GAA , Golf , Soccer etc.

Same applies for advertisers to a certain extent as well

Attendances and Revenue will dip , absolutely no question.

thomond2006

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And wouldnt other counties in leinster also be an issue not just Dublin?

Leinster Rugby is Dublin. All Leinster fans such as IBF are from Dublin.

sydthebeat

love sitting in the north stand on a warm sunny day watching rugby.......

Burkie1203

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster Rugby is Dublin. All Leinster fans such as IBF are from Dublin.

What about Awec

thomond2006

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What about Awec

Awec and myself have retired from our Leinster STH career.

Losty Dublin

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

LOI has done better. From football perspective teams in Europe doing far better in the move to summer months

Almost all of their improvements of note have come from their own inward investment and efforts and were bearing fruit even before the season switched over.

irishbucsfan

The venn diagram of people who have season tickets in the RDS and go to Kildare games in Newbridge is two distinct circles. And Kildare would be the biggest crossover. I might well be the closest, having had a Leinster STH and having actually been to the odd game in Conleths Park

Munster and Connacht are much bigger problems I’m sure, if people from there say so. You’d only see an issue in Leinster if there’s a big inter county game in Croke Park at the same time as a game for Leinster (not necessarily just Dublin). The Leinster championship isn’t an issue, so you’re talking about a rare occurrence there given the state of Leinster football. Probably more chance of Wexford hurling pulling a couple of people away!


As for this “all Leinster fans are from Dublin” like me malarkey. We’re talking about Croke Park here, not just Dublin playing there! Have we all forgotten Newbridge or Nowhere so soon?

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They’re not going to schedule the provinces against GAA games of any significance. No one wants it to happen. If Dublin are playing in Crocker on a Sunday, Leinster won’t be playing in the RDS on that Sunday. It may be a little trickier in Munster for a short period each year with a slightly busier hurling schedule earlier in the season, but it’s completely possible for rugby to work around the GAA schedule, which is what broadcasters will demand they do anyway

With regards GAA, the Championship fixtures are confirmed the previous October, so there should be plenty of time to schedule fixtures avoiding as many conflicts as possible, you'd hope.

Clegg

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1270341731519692801?s=19

BonnieSituation

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Perhaps , but in terms of capturing the spend it's a major issue.

If you are a casual fan and you have €50 to spend on a given week-end for a live sporting event - September to April , Rugby is pretty much it as far as large live team sports in Ireland, not a whole lot of other choices.

Move the season to May- September and now you are competing for those same euros with GAA , Golf , Soccer etc.

Same applies for advertisers to a certain extent as well

Attendances and Revenue will dip , absolutely no question.

This was a point I was making previously.

We have seen it already where the GAA have had crowds fall off in the summer due to too many games occurring between pay packets wheras there used to be a gap large enough to warrant attendance at both.

This is the key thing that rugby needs to mind.

pickarooney

Clegg wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1270341731519692801?s=19

Any comments on the article saying "but, but it happens Ben Curry too!"?

irishbucsfan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Perhaps , but in terms of capturing the spend it's a major issue.

If you are a casual fan and you have €50 to spend on a given week-end for a live sporting event - September to April , Rugby is pretty much it as far as large live team sports in Ireland, not a whole lot of other choices.

Move the season to May- September and now you are competing for those same euros with GAA , Golf , Soccer etc.

Same applies for advertisers to a certain extent as well

Attendances and Revenue will dip , absolutely no question.

Do you think that the competition of League of Ireland or golf (what, the rare Irish open?) would be more of a hit on attendance and revenue than trying to drag fans out during absolutely freezing rainy/snowy nights in winter?

Because I'll tell you right now I'd say Leinster might lose a couple of hundred people to League of Ireland or golf at worst, but decent weather will bring far more than that. Not a shadow of a doubt. I've sat in the RDS regretting my STH purchase on multiple horrible nights, and I've seen it packed to the gills on sunny days in May (even before the playoffs were being played then).


The GAA is potentially a different story. They have to be smart with scheduling for that. You'd have to see the potential impacts of that laid out to make a decision. Dublin as Leinster champions may not even compete with Leinster during the domestic season blocks, but that's a risk alright. One Leinster/Dublin clash would also be much easier to schedule around than a big hurling weekend as well for Munster. You could definitely schedule all that against weaker games though if you had some control

Quin_Dub

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do you think that the competition of League of Ireland or golf (what, the rare Irish open?) would be more of a hit on attendance and revenue than trying to drag fans out during absolutely freezing rainy/snowy nights in winter?

Because I'll tell you right now I'd say Leinster might lose a couple of hundred people to League of Ireland or golf at worst, but decent weather will bring far more than that. Not a shadow of a doubt. I've sat in the RDS regretting my STH purchase on multiple horrible nights, and I've seen it packed to the gills on sunny days in May (even before the playoffs were being played then).


The GAA is potentially a different story. They have to be smart with scheduling for that. You'd have to see the potential impacts of that laid out to make a decision. Dublin as Leinster champions may not even compete with Leinster during the domestic season blocks, but that's a risk alright. One Leinster/Dublin clash would also be much easier to schedule around than a big hurling weekend as well for Munster. You could definitely schedule all that against weaker games though if you had some control

I'm not certain , but it's not just about scheduling , it's about money. Just because the Rugby Game is Friday night and the Gaelic football/hurling is on the Sunday does not mean that they've solved the issue.

I'm not necessarily talking about Season ticket holders, although it might impact them.

The casual attendee who likes multiple sports but has a finite amount of disposable income in a given week/month to spend on a sporting event.

In May-Sept time frame , Rugby would be competing with multiple sports for that finite resource for live attendance- In terms of Golf , it's not just going to watch the Irish Open , it's also the guys that want to spend that €50 on green fees for a round of golf for themselves on a given weekend.

Not saying it's an insurmountable problem and as you point out maybe they pick up more than they lose , but it's something that needs to be researched very closely before deciding to agree.

irishbucsfan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I'm not certain , but it's not just about scheduling , it's about money. Just because the Rugby Game is Friday night and the Gaelic football/hurling is on the Sunday does not mean that they've solved the issue.

I'm not necessarily talking about Season ticket holders, although it might impact them.

The casual attendee who likes multiple sports but has a finite amount of disposable income in a given week/month to spend on a sporting event.

In May-Sept time frame , Rugby would be competing with multiple sports for that finite resource for live attendance- In terms of Golf , it's not just going to watch the Irish Open , it's also the guys that want to spend that €50 on green fees for a round of golf for themselves on a given weekend.

Not saying it's an insurmountable problem and as you point out maybe they pick up more than they lose , but it's something that needs to be researched very closely before deciding to agree.

Well I think we can completely ignore green fees as "new" competition.

For everything else, there's a huge assumption being made there about consumer behaviour that wouldn't be in line with my own experience, albeit I'm normally surrounded by STHs. I'd refuse to believe, without seeing serious evidence, that competing with winter weather isn't considerably more difficult for Irish provinces than competing with the league of Ireland clubs for casual fans. The GAA is a completely different animal of course. You're right on that bit, the provinces should do serious research on how the timings will impact the attractiveness of tickets (both STs and walk-ups for big matches), it could be an increase, it could be under pressure.

I think this is a fairly minor factor in considering the whole thing, even if the provinces would expect to lose out.

salmocab

I much prefer watching on a sunny Saturday afternoon in the RDS to any other time, I’d love a season with a good few sunny days out but with holidays and trips down to Wexford with family I suspect I’d miss more games over the better weather time period.

irishbucsfan

salmocab wrote: »

I much prefer watching on a sunny Saturday afternoon in the RDS to any other time, I’d love a season with a good few sunny days out but with holidays and trips down to Wexford with family I suspect I’d miss more games over the better weather time period.

That's a good point actually. That could be far more problematic. For example, if you or your other half is a teacher and you take that time for holidays, you would miss a big chunk of games. I'd be much more worried about that aspect

salmocab

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's a good point actually. That could be far more problematic. For example, if you or your other half is a teacher and you take that time for holidays, you would miss a big chunk of games. I'd be much more worried about that aspect

I’ll be going away for two weeks next July after the little lad finishes school so I’ll miss three Saturdays. Obviously could be lucky with away games or Friday night before I leave but I could miss a couple of home games. Not bad enough to put me off getting the ticket but depending on the make up of the season it might affect some people’s decisions.

BonnieSituation

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I think we can completely ignore green fees as "new" competition.

For everything else, there's a huge assumption being made there about consumer behaviour that wouldn't be in line with my own experience, albeit I'm normally surrounded by STHs. I'd refuse to believe, without seeing serious evidence, that competing with winter weather isn't considerably more difficult for Irish provinces than competing with the league of Ireland clubs for casual fans. The GAA is a completely different animal of course. You're right on that bit, the provinces should do serious research on how the timings will impact the attractiveness of tickets (both STs and walk-ups for big matches), it could be an increase, it could be under pressure.

I think this is a fairly minor factor in considering the whole thing, even if the provinces would expect to lose out.

I don't know why you're hovering around the LOI; it's just one factor among many now thrown into the pot of summer choices that people have to make.

If Shels play Friday night, Leinster on Saturday and Dublin on Sunday, that means for me, I'm now possibly having to make a choice that I didn't have to make before.

Not to mention holidays! As someone who has had to deal with a teachers' holiday limitations, it's not great alright!

The main thing to take from the move is that it is a HUUUGE change that has to be made with regard to all possibilities in all nations. And from an Irish perspective, we should try to maximise the potential for clubs and provinces to get a new audience while not alienating those who have already made that commitment.

irishbucsfan

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I don't know why you're hovering around the LOI; it's just one factor among many now thrown into the pot of summer choices that people have to make.

If Shels play Friday night, Leinster on Saturday and Dublin on Sunday, that means for me, I'm now possibly having to make a choice that I didn't have to make before.

Not to mention holidays! As someone who has had to deal with a teachers' holiday limitations, it's not great alright!

The main thing to take from the move is that it is a HUUUGE change that has to be made with regard to all possibilities in all nations. And from an Irish perspective, we should try to maximise the potential for clubs and provinces to get a new audience while not alienating those who have already made that commitment.

But you're talking as if it's the first time Leinster has ever had to deal with major competition

Are you a member of a rugby club? I had to give up my STH this year so I could play for a club that was a little bit too far away to justify keeping it, having tried it for a year and missing most of the games. When you play or are involved with a club you miss tons of pro rugby. Now suddenly if those seasons are offset there are lots of people who can now play/coach amateur rugby over winter and go regularly to watch professional rugby over the summer. I think people are overstating the impact of the competition against other sports rather hugely in this thread.

Holidays is certainly one. Big GAA weekends is certainly one (depending on exactly when that falls versus the stage of the rugby season). But I wouldn't necessarily assume all of this combined would lead to a decrease in attendances across the country.