General Rugby Discussion II

hahashake

bilston wrote: »

I'd like a future by 2030 where the WC is eventually expanded to 24 teams. 2027 might be too soon, but hopefully by 2031.

South Africa and Georgia join an expanded 8 Nations championship.

Fiji and Japan join NZ, Australia and Argentina in the Rugby Championship.

USA, Canada, Uruguay, Tonga and Samoa have their own tournament.

European Nations with maybe Namibia replacing Georgia, plus Russia, Romania, Spain Portugal etc (although travel costs would be difficult for Namibia).

More time zone orientated competition rather than Hemisphere orientated would make more financial sense IMO.

The Rugby Championship is locked in until 2030. Can see SA trying to join the 6N thereafter but there are a lot of moving parts there so I wouldn't bet on it.

bilston

hahashake wrote: »

The Rugby Championship is locked in until 2030. Can see SA trying to join the 6N thereafter but there are a lot of moving parts there so I wouldn't bet on it.

Aye I know and I'm under no illusions that the above will ever happen.

As for SA, it doesn't make sense to me for them to throw in their lot domestically with Europe but keep their test side tied to the Rugby Championship. Long term they must surely have their eyes on the 6Ns. I wonder what the small print on their contract for the Rugby Championship says.

sydthebeat

will capon called up to england squad.....
3rd choice bristol bears hooker.

id imagine Harry Thacker is there wondering.....

Lost Ormond

So Tom Youngs got a 2 week ban for abusing the ref in Leicester Bristol game
The second week of the ban is suspended until 28 February 2022 on the provision that Youngs completes the England Rugby Refereeing Award Course and referees two community age grade rugby matches
If he doesnt do it by then he serves the 2nd week of the ban

Would love to see this implemented for all pro players and coaches who are found guilty of abuse of match officials

sydthebeat

Lost Ormond wrote: »

So Tom Youngs got a 2 week ban for abusing the ref in Leicester Bristol game
The second week of the ban is suspended until 28 February 2022 on the provision that Youngs completes the England Rugby Refereeing Award Course and referees two community age grade rugby matches
If he doesnt do it by then he serves the 2nd week of the ban

Would love to see this implemented for all pro players and coaches who are found guilty of abuse of match officials

that is brilliant!

Shaka Hislop

Just reading an interview with Dan Tuohy on his time on the Irish setup... Not complimentary about Joe's man-management style, felt belittled and scared, and he wasn't the only one within the squad who felt that way.

UAEguy2020

Probably why when push came to shove we shat the bed in those RWC QFs.

It’s evident that Andy Farrell may have thought that way also as he seems to have gone down the opposite approach and allowing players to express themselves.

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

will capon called up to england squad.....
3rd choice bristol bears hooker.

id imagine Harry Thacker is there wondering.....

I think Thacker went off injured in the match I was half watching at the weekend.

sydthebeat

bilston wrote: »

I think Thacker went off injured in the match I was half watching at the weekend.

hadnt realised that thanks. hopefully its not a bad one, as he only came back from back surgery in may after missing the first 8 months of the season.

Christy42

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Probably why when push came to shove we shat the bed in those RWC QFs.

It’s evident that Andy Farrell may have thought that way also as he seems to have gone down the opposite approach and allowing players to express themselves.

I doubt it. Why does it work for 6 nations/big test matches and not a WC QF? Joe's style boosted some players and hurt others which effected all styles of matches equally. Joe's big failing for QFs was around not finding back ups for Sexton/Murray. We lost Sexton (and a few others) for 2015, both were out of form for 2019 which led to a poor result from his game plan depending on them.

Obviously Joe's style didn't work for everyone. Some had issues with him. Others flourished. I think there a benefits and downsides to different styles. Andy likely had his own style from before working with Joe, he is experienced and old enough that I doubt he suddenly decided to go the opposite of Joe.

Andy would have his own style regardless.

molloyjh

Christy42 wrote: »

I doubt it. Why does it work for 6 nations/big test matches and not a WC QF? Joe's style boosted some players and hurt others which effected all styles of matches equally. Joe's big failing for QFs was around not finding back ups for Sexton/Murray. We lost Sexton (and a few others) for 2015, both were out of form for 2019 which led to a poor result from his game plan depending on them.

Obviously Joe's style didn't work for everyone. Some had issues with him. Others flourished. I think there a benefits and downsides to different styles. Andy likely had his own style from before working with Joe, he is experienced and old enough that I doubt he suddenly decided to go the opposite of Joe.

Andy would have his own style regardless.

Agree with most of this. However it isnt on the national coach to find replacements for players. That's on the provinces. We haven't really had replacements for Murray or Sexton because they haven't really existed at the provinces. Throw in Carbery getting injured in 2019 too and that just hampered us even more there. I doubt we'd have fared any better in 2015 anyway. We just lost too many important players. Almost the entire spine of the team was gone. Few sides could manage that. I dont think a good back up 10 would have are that much of a difference really.

I'd argue that the only time we really bottled it was 2019. 2015 was massive misfortune due to losing so many players. 2011 was a coaching cock up rather than a player one. Deccie didn't select the starting half backs that won us our 2 biggest games of the season (England & Australia) favouring the ponderous Murray and aging ROG instead, playing into Welsh hands. 2007 was a coaching and prep cock up as well rather than a player one. They thought they had the game plan sussed and needed to work on conditioning more than the actual rugby. In 2019 we spent the whole year thinking about the QF and everyone from coaches to players let it affect them such that when the performances weren't where they needed to be they panicked.

sprucemoose

molloyjh wrote: »

Deccie didn't select the starting half backs that won us our 2 biggest games of the season (England & Australia) favouring the ponderous Murray and aging ROG instead, playing into Welsh hands.

thats reaching a bit to be honest. Murray and O Gara were the best 9 & 10 we had at the time since Reddan and Sexton were in poor enough form. They didnt play too well in the Welsh game in fairness but on the other hand they didnt miss the tackle on Davies either nor did they let phillips skip up the touchline

Podge_irl

sprucemoose wrote: »

thats reaching a bit to be honest. Murray and O Gara were the best 9 & 10 we had at the time since Reddan and Sexton were in poor enough form. They didnt play too well in the Welsh game in fairness but on the other hand they didnt miss the tackle on Davies either nor did they let phillips skip up the touchline

Reddan and Sexton had led the team to victory over Australia in the pool stages of the tournament. They had also led the team to a fantastic victory over England in the 6N when finally given a shot to start. Murray was playing some of his first international tests in the world cup but somehow it was decided he would pair better with O'Gara. Sexont/Reddan were far and away the form pairing.

It was one of the worst selection decisions I've ever seen.

sprucemoose

Podge_irl wrote: »

Reddan and Sexton had led the team to victory over Australia in the pool stages of the tournament.

hmmm........no. reddan was fine at best that day and was probably a bit unlucky to be dropped, i imagine he probably missed out as kidney wanted to keep provincial combinations together. sexton on the other hand was definitely mediocre at best, general play against aus was okay but his goalkicking was very poor, missing 3 if my memory serves me (after missing 4 the previous week). harsh to drop him maybe, especially seeing as other kickers had similar problems (something to do with the balls being inconsistent apparently), but unfortunately goalkicking is a major part of sextons game and he had to be judged accordingly. the alternative was to either start o gara (who was kicking beautifully at the time) or else start sexton along with either mcfadden or wallace - i know which i would be choosing

Podge_irl

sprucemoose wrote: »

hmmm........no. reddan was fine at best that day and was probably a bit unlucky to be dropped, i imagine he probably missed out as kidney wanted to keep provincial combinations together. sexton on the other hand was definitely mediocre at best, general play against aus was okay but his goalkicking was very poor, missing 3 if my memory serves me (after missing 4 the previous week). harsh to drop him maybe, especially seeing as other kickers had similar problems (something to do with the balls being inconsistent apparently), but unfortunately goalkicking is a major part of sextons game and he had to be judged accordingly. the alternative was to either start o gara (who was kicking beautifully at the time) or else start sexton along with either mcfadden or wallace - i know which i would be choosing

Sexton's kicking was poor in the Aus game yes. He slotted 2/2 in the Italy game and I don't think they were particularly easy ones. Everything else about the halfback play in that Aus game was excellent. You don't control a game that much without great halfback play.

How you can translate Reddan and Sexton starting our best games of the season into them being in poor form and leaving Kidney no choice but to drop them is utterly bizarre to me.

(also I would 100% start a completely competent winger who can kick extremely well to get a significantly better playmaking and defending 10 onto the pitch if needs be. Instead we got questionably better kicking in exchange for completely hamstringing the team in open play).

Cookiemunster

Christ lads, it was a decade ago, let it go.

sprucemoose

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sexton's kicking was poor in the Aus game yes.

it was very poor in the USA and AUS and nearly cost ireland the AUS game. if they were as controlling as you say they were (which is very debatable, sexton was very good in that game but not spectacular either) then ireland should have been miles out of sight

Podge_irl wrote: »

He slotted 2/2 in the Italy game and I don't think they were particularly easy ones.

he did and fair play, but he still missed an unacceptable number of kicks in more pressurised situations in the opening games

Podge_irl wrote: »

How you can translate Reddan and Sexton starting our best games of the season into them being in poor form and leaving Kidney no choice but to drop them is utterly bizarre to me.

in fairness ive admitted that reddan mightve been hard done by. but as explained a number of times, sexton missed 4 kicks against usa and 3 against aus, not really acceptable going forward in the competition

Podge_irl wrote: »

(also I would 100% start a completely competent winger who can kick extremely well to get a significantly better playmaking and defending 10 onto the pitch if needs be. Instead we got questionably better kicking in exchange for completely hamstringing the team in open play).

i mean, the level of bollocks here is unbelievable. while better (and even thats arguable), sexton was not a 'significantly' better playmaker than o gara. the idea that the team was 'hamstrung' as you put it by o gara is laughable. you might be forgetting that as great as sexton was against england, he was pretty poor in the 6N up to that point and was lucky to be starting (neither played well against wales tbh).
also, the idea that a player who was at best, leinsters 2nd choice goalkicker at the time, and had never kicked in an international game, should be shoehorned into the team to cover sexton's poor goalkicking form......when one of the best goalkickers ireland has ever had is on the bench - youre trolling right?

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Christ lads, it was a decade ago, let it go.

nah theres feck all rugby on at the moment so we might as well

Podge_irl

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Christ lads, it was a decade ago, let it go.

NEVER!



(but also yes)

AbusesToilets

sprucemoose wrote: »

thats reaching a bit to be honest. Murray and O Gara were the best 9 & 10 we had at the time since Reddan and Sexton were in poor enough form. They didnt play too well in the Welsh game in fairness but on the other hand they didnt miss the tackle on Davies either nor did they let phillips skip up the touchline

Absolute nonsense. Reddan and Sexton were in far better form at that stage.

sprucemoose

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. Reddan and Sexton were in far better form at that stage.

reddan maybe (which ive admitted), but sexton wasnt. i wouldnt count missing 4 kicks against USA and 3 against AUS as being in form

Richie_Rich89

Murray is and was far superior to Reddan.

I remember when Kidney was pairing Murray and Sexton early on, there was a fair bit of clamour in some papers for him to pick Reddan and Sexton together; the reasoning being that it was a combo that knew each other from club rugby.

Just goes to show that Kidney knows a lot more about selection than some journalists.

irishbucsfan

sprucemoose wrote: »

reddan maybe (which ive admitted), but sexton wasnt. i wouldnt count missing 4 kicks against USA and 3 against AUS as being in form

Our two best performances and most important wins that year we’re with Reddan and Sexton. Maybe a huge coincidence, or maybe the selection was a massive error.

sprucemoose

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Our two best performances and most important wins that year we’re with Reddan and Sexton. Maybe a huge coincidence, or maybe the selection was a massive error.

the england game was in march so that doesnt really count for much in terms of form......
and as ive repeatedly said, sexton missed 4 kicks against USA and 3 against AUS, which is unacceptable at international level. o gara however missed at most 1 kick in each of the games

AbusesToilets

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Murray is and was far superior to Reddan.

I remember when Kidney was pairing Murray and Sexton early on, there was a fair bit of clamour in some papers for him to pick Reddan and Sexton together; the reasoning being that it was a combo that knew each other from club rugby.

Just goes to show that Kidney knows a lot more about selection than some journalists.

Murray was not better at that point. His passing was glacial, and his decision making not at the same level

irishbucsfan

sprucemoose wrote: »

the england game was in march so that doesnt really count for much in terms of form......

It counts for a lot in terms of talent.

The only two good performances really that year to be honest. And that was what they had in common. Easy to ignore if you don't want to see it.

Missing kicks is not important if you're performance around the rest of the park isn't good enough to create scoring opportunities.

molloyjh

sprucemoose wrote: »

reddan maybe (which ive admitted), but sexton wasnt. i wouldnt count missing 4 kicks against USA and 3 against AUS as being in form

If you view your 10 as a place kicker and nothing else then sure. But thats not what Sexton ever was. Nor really any 10 for that matter. His place kicking in NZ was poor, although he claimed to have sorted that prior to the Italy game. He only got 1 more shot at goal after that though so it's impossible to know if that was the case.

At the end of the day Kidney never got to grips with the game after 2009. We've all heard the "we had no attacking game" comments from players since then. The selection at half back was a symptom of a wider issue. The overall point remains. The players didn't bottle it that year. The coach made a mess of it.

Richie_Rich89

molloyjh wrote: »

If you view your 10 as a place kicker and nothing else then sure. But thats not what Sexton ever was. Nor really any 10 for that matter. His place kicking in NZ was poor, although he claimed to have sorted that prior to the Italy game. He only got 1 more shot at goal after that though so it's impossible to know if that was the case.

At the end of the day Kidney never got to grips with the game after 2009. We've all heard the "we had no attacking game" comments from players since then. The selection at half back was a symptom of a wider issue. The overall point remains. The players didn't bottle it that year. The coach made a mess of it.

First ever win over a major rugby nation at a RWC.

First time topping their pool at a World Cup.

Made it as far in the competition as any other Ireland team managed at any other World Cup.

Made the quarter-final a far more closely fought affair than O'Sullivan's or Schmidt's teams managed.

But sure, the coach made a mess of it.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1407448669083869188?s=19

sprucemoose

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Missing kicks is not important if you're performance around the rest of the park isn't good enough to create scoring opportunities.

ireland scored loads of tries against aus in fairness.....

sydthebeat

Maori All Blacks: 15 Kaleb Trask, 14 Shaun Stevenson, 13 Billy Proctor, 12 Alex Nankivell, 11 Sean Wainui, 10 Otere Black, 9 Bryn Hall, 8 Whetukamokamo Douglas, 7 Billy Harmon, 6 Reed Prinsep, 5 Isaia Walker-Leawere, 4 Manaaki Selby-Rickit, 3 Josh Hohneck, 2 Ash Dixon (captain), 1 Pouri Rakete-Stones.
Replacements: 16 Kurt Eklund, 17 Tamaiti Williams, 18 Marcel Renata, 19 Josh Dickson, 20 Jacob Norris, 21 Sam Nock, 22 Josh Ioane, 23 Jonah Lowe.

Manu Samoa: 15 Tomasi Alosio, 14 Johnny Vaili, 13 Losi Filipo, 12 Henry Taefu, 11 Neria Fomai, 10 Rodney Iona, 9 Dwayne Polatataiva, 8 Olajuwon Noa, 7 Jack Lam (Captain), 6 Henry Time-Stower, 5 Samuel Slade, 4 Benjamin Nee-Nee, 3 Kalolo Tuiloma, 2 Ray Niuia, 1 Albert Anae.
Replacements: 16 JP Sauni, 17 Jonah Aoina, 18 Michael Alaalatoa, 19 Teofilo Paulo, 20 Theo McFarland, 21 Auvasa Falealii, 22 Stacey Ili, 23 Elisapeta Alofipi

Date: Saturday, June 26
Venue: Sky Stadium, Wellington
Kick-off: 8.05am irish time
Referee: TBC
Assistant Referees: TBC
TMO: TBC


looking forward to watching this on sat morning... probably have to find it on less legit sites thopugh