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General Rugby Discussion II

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    #1862
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    MJohnston wrote: »
    This seems dumb:

    https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1002191291239862272

    Imagine if UEFA banned Ireland from playing in European competitions on the basis that a Maltese resident bankrolls the national football team!


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    #1863
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    MJohnston wrote: »
    This seems dumb:

    https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1002191291239862272

    They had to do this after the Altrad situation with Gloucester.


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    #1864
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,071 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    without sounding like Welsh Twitter, could the same not be said about irish teams and the IRFU?


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    #1865
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    without sounding like Welsh Twitter, could the same not be said about irish teams and the IRFU?

    It could, but as a governing body and not a private investor there may be different rules. The independence of the provinces or the governance and structures between the branches might also result in a different categorisation of the two situations.

    Fair observations though.


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    #1866
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,654 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    without sounding like Welsh Twitter, could the same not be said about irish teams and the IRFU?

    My question exactly.

    Also - I guess the German team was the one picked to leave just because it wasn't a French team? Stade are a team on the way down, bound to give exactly zero fecks about the Challenge Cup, whereas Heidelberger were due to be the first German team to take part in a Europe wide competition. Dumb.


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    #1867
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    MJohnston wrote: »
    This seems dumb:

    https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1002191291239862272

    Happened with Salzburg and leipzig both owed by red bull, they had to do a load of governance separation


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    #1868
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users Posts: 45,767 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    Happened with Salzburg and leixslip both owed by red bull, they had to do a load of governance separation

    Wouldn't have thought Salzburg vs Leixslip would be much of an issue...:D


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    #1869
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    Wouldn't have thought Salzburg vs Leixslip would be much of an issue...:D

    Sorry typo, I corrected it.

    But uefa made both clubs jump through hoops before allowing them to compete in Europe


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    #1870
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    OldRio wrote: »
    I see Edinburgh have put in for planning permission for a new stadium at Murrayfield. It's to be built on one of the practice pitches adjacent to the Main Stadium.
    7800 capacity. 3G surface. Reported in the Scotsman.

    They’ll also have a new crest and strip next season:
    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/edinburgh-rugby-revamp-identity-and-bring-in-new-colours-and-new-badge-1-4747771/amp


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    #1871
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,796 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    MJohnston wrote: »
    This seems dumb:

    https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1002191291239862272
    How do the IRFU get away with owning 4 teams in the same competition then?


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    #1872
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    How do the IRFU get away with owning 4 teams in the same competition then?

    The IRFU aren't a private individual.

    To be clear, this is nothing new. Mohad Altrad encountered exactly this when he attempted to purchase Gloucester.


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    #1873
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    How do the IRFU get away with owning 4 teams in the same competition then?

    The IRFU are a stakeholder in ECPR.


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    #1874
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The IRFU aren't a private individual.

    To be clear, this is nothing new. Mohad Altrad encountered exactly this when he attempted to purchase Gloucester.

    Why should the fact it is not a private individual matter? I'm sure a scenario could easily arise where it is beneficial to the IRFU/Leinster to have a certain result in a Munster game for example. Obviously there is nothing that can be done about that in a practical sense, but it is a bit of an odd double standard in some ways.


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    #1875
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Why should the fact it is not a private individual matter? I'm sure a scenario could easily arise where it is beneficial to the IRFU/Leinster to have a certain result in a Munster game for example. Obviously there is nothing that can be done about that in a practical sense, but it is a bit of an odd double standard in some ways.

    Because a private individual takes money out of the game and can leave at any time. The NGBs are non-profits who directly depend on the future of the sport and would be directly damaged by that sort of collusion.

    Also, there absolutely is something that can be done about that in a practical sense. If the IRFU ever tanked a game in Europe to benefit another side the fallout would be monstrous.


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    #1876
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Because a private individual takes money out of the game and can leave at any time. The NGBs are non-profits who directly depend on the future of the sport and would be directly damaged by that sort of collusion.

    Also, there absolutely is something that can be done about that in a practical sense. If the IRFU ever tanked a game in Europe to benefit another side the fallout would be monstrous.

    There is nothing that can be done about the IRFU owning multiple teams in a practical sense - unless they restrict the competition to one team from Ireland which obviously won't happen.

    The IRFU also benefit directly from home QFs and the like - the fact they are non-profits doesn't really alter that, they still have a budget to balance. It doesn't exactly require obvious "tanking" to still impact the competition.

    It's allowed because there is no other option.


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    #1877
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The IRFU do not take money out of the game and can not leave. Their future is tied to the future of the sport. You can't ignore that fact.

    It's apples and oranges.

    You say "its allowed to happen because there is no other option" as if anyone would even look for another option. But that would be looking for a solution without a problem.


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    #1878
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    An NGB is still one 'entity'. If one of the private owners went to court about this the unions might be in a spot of bother. Is it a fair competition?


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    #1879
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The IRFU do not take money out of the game and can not leave. Their future is tied to the future of the sport. You can't ignore that fact.

    Sure.

    And you can't ignore the fact that it is worth a ****load of money to the IRFU to have teams in the knockout stages and it is absolutely possible to impact that with their other teams. Whether they do it or not isn't the point.


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    #1880
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    There is nothing that can be done about the IRFU owning multiple teams in a practical sense - unless they restrict the competition to one team from Ireland which obviously won't happen.

    The IRFU also benefit directly from home QFs and the like - the fact they are non-profits doesn't really alter that, they still have a budget to balance. It doesn't exactly require obvious "tanking" to still impact the competition.

    It's allowed because there is no other option.
    I'm not sure how 'tanking' one game in favour of another would make one iota of difference to the IRFU's income. Home QF ticket income goes directly to the province concerned afaik. If two provinces are fighting it out in a QF, it makes no odds to the IRFU as to which one wins. Or at least I can't see how it does.


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    #1881
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    An NGB is still one 'entity'. If one of the private owners went to court about this the unions might be in a spot of bother. Is it a fair competition?

    Well when you bring the courts into it it's a completely different story. Montpellier and Gloucester are completely different entities that are separately owned by the same entity.


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    #1882
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I'm not sure how 'tanking' one game in favour of another would make one iota of difference to the IRFU's income. Home QF ticket income goes directly to the province concerned afaik. If two provinces are fighting it out in a QF, it makes no odds to the IRFU as to which one wins. Or at least I can't see how it does.

    The provinces are the IRFU. The distinction made between them is facile in the extreme.

    It is not even remotely difficult to envision a scenario where the result of a Munster game would impact whether Leinster make the QFs for example. Whether the reasoning is money or not it could be seen to impact the fairness of the competition.


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    #1883
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Once again folks.

    The IRFU are (a component of) ECPR. They make the rules.


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    #1884
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    The provinces are the IRFU. The distinction made between them is facile in the extreme.

    It is not even remotely difficult to envision a scenario where the result of a Munster game would impact whether Leinster make the QFs for example. Whether the reasoning is money or not it could be seen to impact the fairness of the competition.

    It is extremely difficult to envision a scenario where Munster or Leinster would act maliciously to further the other at the expense of the competition. Because they are shareholders of the competition.

    Whereas Mohad Altrad is not a shareholder of EPCR. He could happily hand out "team orders", there is nothing protecting the competition against that. Which is absolutely not true of the IRFU.


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    #1885
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    It is extremely difficult to envision a scenario where Munster or Leinster would act maliciously to further the other at the expense of the competition. Because they are shareholders of the competition.

    Whereas Mohad Altrad is not a shareholder of EPCR. He could happily hand out "team orders", there is nothing protecting the competition against that. Which is absolutely not true of the IRFU.

    It doesn't exactly need to be so overt. I have no difficulty at all in imaging the IRFU putting pressure on a province to rest or play a borderline injured player for example.

    As IO says, the IRFU get away with it cause they own the competition. But I disagree that it massively fundamentally different from a private owner owning two teams.


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    #1886
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    The provinces are the IRFU. The distinction made between them is facile in the extreme.

    It is not even remotely difficult to envision a scenario where the result of a Munster game would impact whether Leinster make the QFs for example. Whether the reasoning is money or not it could be seen to impact the fairness of the competition.
    I'm not making a distinction. The example I gave was a match between two provinces. The IRFU benefits indirectly, whichever one wins.

    There's huge difficulty in trying to influence whether another province gets to a QF or not. Any team that's relying on other results to ensure a QF place, usually requires a number of results to go their way. I really can't see how you could influence that outcome based on one result out of five pools.


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    #1887
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I'm not making a distinction. The example I gave was a match between two provinces. The IRFU benefits indirectly, whichever one wins.

    You also gave the example of a home QF money going to the province as opposed to the IRFU. It is a pointless distinction, they are the same thing and that doesn't mean anything.
    prawnsambo wrote: »
    There's huge difficulty in trying to influence whether another province gets to a QF or not. Any team that's relying on other results to ensure a QF place, usually requires a number of results to go their way. I really can't see how you could influence that outcome based on one result out of five pools.

    The last time Leinster failed to make the QFs was a direct result of the outcome of a Munster match.


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    #1888
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    As IO says, the IRFU get away with it cause they own the competition. But I disagree that it massively fundamentally different from a private owner owning two teams.

    But that's only because you're ignoring the massive fundamental differences that have been pointed out to you.


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    #1889
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    But that's only because you're ignoring the massive fundamental differences that have been pointed out to you.

    No, it's only because I disagree that they are massive fundamental differences and you haven't done a very good job of convincing me otherwise.

    There are more ways to influence a competition then going "ah sure go out there and score piles of own goals lads". If you don't think that pressure would come on a province who is 0 from 5 to play their best team if a win in the final game could help another province get in as a qualifier then I think that is naive in the extreme.


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    #1890
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    You also gave the example of a home QF money going to the province as opposed to the IRFU. It is a pointless distinction, they are the same thing and that doesn't mean anything.
    Yes, I did. In the context of two provinces fighting it out in a QF. But in the wider context, that's motivation for provinces to get to QFs. And for the IRFU, the more provinces that make the knock-outs, the better, because the TV payout increases and they get that.
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    The last time Leinster failed to make the QFs was a direct result of the outcome of a Munster match.
    Iirc, if Munster hadn't got that result, they would have been out.


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    #1891
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Yes, I did. In the context of two provinces fighting it out in a QF. But in the wider context, that's motivation for provinces to get to QFs. And for the IRFU, the more provinces that make the knock-outs, the better, because the TV payout increases and they get that.

    Iirc, if Munster hadn't got that result, they would have been out.

    Yes they would have been. But it doesn't exactly take a massive leap of imagination to imagine that it was the team Munster playing who needed that result to knock out Leinster for example.


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