General Rugby Discussion II

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

Yes, Schmidt always favoured Zebo, he only stopped being picked once it was announced he was leaving.

I am certain that he would have picked up further caps in the AIs and 6N if he were remaining a Munster player. At the very least he'd have been selected ahead of Larmour on more than one occasion.

I don’t think that’s even close to true, as there are probably thousands of posts from irate Munster fans on here about him not getting picked. Especially when we needed some x-factor. He was very much the Craig Gilroy/TOH of Munster for a long time. He only cemented his starting place in the team over the last 12-18 months previous. Clearly he wasn’t happy with what that required either, thus his pop at Joe.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

I don’t think that’s even close to true, as there are probably thousands of posts from irate Munster fans on here about him not getting picked. Especially when we needed some x-factor. He was very much the Craig Gilroy/TOH of Munster for a long time. He only cemented his starting place in the team over the last 12-18 months previous. Clearly he wasn’t happy with what that required either, thus his pop at Joe.

It's true, the caps are there to see.

When he was fit he was selected much more often than not.

29 caps under Schmidt, not bad for a player "not fancied". Only Earls and Kearney were selected more often by my count.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

It's true, the caps are there to see.

When he was fit he was selected much more often than not.

29 caps under Schmidt, not bad for a player "not fancied". Only Earls and Kearney were selected more often by my count.

Except for a couple of 6 Nations campaigns and throughout an entire World Cup.

Dubinusa

Who are centrally contracted?

Former Former

Dubinusa wrote: »

Who are centrally contracted?

Kearney, Earls, Henshaw, Sexton, Murray, Healy, Best, Furlong, Toner, Henderson, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except for a couple of 6 Nations campaigns and throughout an entire World Cup.

He missed one 6 Nations campaign, the second was because he was leaving.

Again, 29 caps. People can spin it whatever way they want to try make their point, but the facts are there. By my count Kearney has been capped 40 times by Schmidt, Earls 31 times and Zebo 29. Not bad for a player who is supposedly not favoured.

He is not an amazing player, but some seem to want to rewrite history ever since he said that negative thing about Schmidt.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

He missed one 6 Nations campaign, the second was because he was leaving.

Again, 29 caps. People can spin it whatever way they want to try make their point, but the facts are there. By my count Kearney has been capped 40 times by Schmidt, Earls 31 times and Zebo 29. Not bad for a player who is supposedly not favoured.

He is not an amazing player, but some seem to want to rewrite history ever since he said that negative thing about Schmidt.

It doesn't need to be spun. You're the one spinning it by using a raw number of caps. He did get a few starts under Schmidt and established himself for a period but that was at a time when our depth was being tested on the wing and at 15 and it was pretty clear Schmidt was never comfortable with him as an option. Particularly in the World Cup when it counted.

If Zebo would have played in the last 6 Nations, it would have been from the bench anyway. His only future in that squad was as a potential option at 15 if Kearney had declined and no alternative emerged.

Former Former

I think the problem is with the word "favoured" and what it means.

Did Joe favour Zebo? Yes and no.

He favoured him less than Bowe, Trimble, Earls, either Kearney or Luke Fitz. He favoured him more than McFadden, Gilroy, TOH and Felix Jones. So I dunno, draw your own conclusions on whether he was "favoured" or not. I would say he was not. At no point would Zebo ever have been part of a fully-fit 23.

Only Earls and Rob Kearney remain in the picture and Zebo was never displacing them; but going into 2019, would Joe have favoured Stockdale, Larmour or Conway more than Zebo? Who knows - but Zebo himself wasn't hanging around to find out and I think that tells its own story.

The 29 caps is a red herring btw. Bowe, Trimble, Earls, both Kearneys and Luke Fitz have two things in common - Joe liked them and they had horrendous injury records. Zebo hoovered up a lot of caps just by staying fit. That won't go down well but it's true.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

He favoured him less than Bowe, Trimble, Earls, either Kearney or Luke Fitz. He favoured him more than McFadden, Gilroy, TOH and Felix Jones.

And for periods early into his tenure, even McFadden was firmly ahead of Zebo

Buer

I can't comprehend how someone could even try to argue against the idea that Zebo wasn't a popular player for Schmidt. It's ludicrous. He wasn't even selected in a squad for the first year. He was selected in the 2015 6N when there were injuries before being dropped completely from the 23 for the final crunch game. He was out of the 23 for the RWC behind DK and Fitz. He wasn't in the team for the 2016 6N but got into it later on when RK was out injured. He was even dropped to the bench after the win over NZ.

2017 was the only 6N campaign where he was in the team for all the games. And that was with Fitz having retired the previous summer, Trimble and Bowe being put out to pasture along with Kearney and Payne both being injured at times.

molloyjh

Yeah, you can look at the caps without the context of them and come to a conclusion in the same way you can look at a players raw stats from a game and come to a conclusion on their performance. At times you'll be right, but at times you'll be wrong. It's an incredibly flawed way of looking at things. As has been said, Zebo hoovered up a lot of minutes due to injury to his competition. But when players were fit and available he was generally behind Rob Kearney, Dave Kearney, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitz, Keith Earls and Fergus McFadden over the last few years. That those guys all had their injury issues over the last few years meant that Zebo probably got a lot more opportunities than he may otherwise have gotten. Saying he'd have picked up more caps at Jordan Larmours expense doesn't exactly back up the idea that he was "favoured".

He said it himself, he didn't suit the way Joe wanted to play. He knew it, and Joe knew it as well. Just because he only went public with that after the move was announced doesn't mean it wasn't said between them before that. And even if it wasn't, I'm sure they both knew anyway.

arsebiscuits1

Dubinusa wrote: »

Just noticed that Dom Ryan is not on the Tigers webpage. Has he been cut?

Rumour over on LF that he's had to retire with concussion issues and will be taking legal action against Leicester.

No idea about the truth behind it though. Massive shame if he's had to call a day though

prawnsambo

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Rumour over on LF that he's had to retire with concussion issues and will be taking legal action against Leicester.

No idea about the truth behind it though. Massive shame if he's had to call a day though

Well there was some discussion about an incident in a game against Northampton where he sustained what looked like a concussion but wasn't given a HIA.

He was subsequently stood down for 12 weeks, a couple of matches after the incident.

Sangre

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Rumour over on LF that he's had to retire with concussion issues and will be taking legal action against Leicester.

No idea about the truth behind it though. Massive shame if he's had to call a day though

If it is true, it may be his insurers taking action on his behalf for contributory negligence rather than Dom himself having a particular issue with the club.

Dubinusa

He is a good player. Shame if true. I remember reading something about his issues months ago. I think they did play him whilst he was concussed. If true ,talk about mismanagement.

prawnsambo

Sangre wrote: »

If it is true, it may be his insurers taking action on his behalf for contributory negligence rather than Dom himself having a particular issue with the club.

It doesn't look good tbh. After he was injured against Northampton, he came off the bench in the next match against Gloucester and lasted three minutes, he started the next one agaiinst Harlequins and lasted 17 minutes. He was subsequently stood down for twelve weeks.

Interesting article in the Guardian about Jones. Have to say I'm finding Eddie's tenure to be very interesting, they looked invincible for 12 months and despite picking up a further six nations have looked in decline since. Ireland went through a similar patch after our first two six nations wins though we never looked quite as impressive as they did in 2016. We also never dipped nearly as far as they have and are now probably in our best situation ever.

It looks like the RFU are prepared to pull the plug if November is more of the same. I didn't realise England were playing Australia, as well as New Zealand, Japan and South Africa.

There is no way they'll lose to Japan and it would be a hugely ironic and automatic regime change if they did. I don't expect them to beat the All Blacks and I'd not be confident in calling the South Africa / Australia games.

I think 2/4 should be enough to see Jones stay on until the World cup and I think that's doable. The RFU aren't playing softball though and it might be they won't accept anything below 3/4. If Jones is sacked his win / lose rate will still be sensationally high, 70%+ stuff which would make looking back on his time in charge a very interesting and most likely polarising one.

I'm convinced the dressing room is gone and his public persona doesn't strike me as the sort to mend bridges. The players seem utterly frustrated and I can't see this saga having a happy ending at this point. I think England will beat South Africa and Japan and lose to Australia and New Zealand and I wouldn't at all be surprised if the RFU seriously consider a last minute world cup change with the six nations as a bedding in period.

I think they'd be right too.

Dubinusa

If they sort out the discipline problems, I think they're a different proposition. Responsibility cuts both ways and I think certain players on the team are just penalty machines and irresponsible.
Also, Jones seems to be loyal to players who I think are past the level required. Although Jones is a langer. he still is a quality coach. I think Robshaw and Brown have to go. Ford to the bench and Farrell to 10. The Br is a shambles without Billy V. Armand should start imo and Itoje should be at 6.
Overall they still could be formidable and I think could win the rwc, but Jones needs to change his demeanor, his squad and get a hold of the discipline.

sydthebeat

i think eddies being found out as a bit of a cod.

hes trialled a sh!t load of players even Marc Lievremont would be embarrassed.
he has broken so many players, without getting any tangible reward, which pisses off the club set up.
his teams are plagued with discipline issues on the field.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Interesting article in the Guardian about Jones. Have to say I'm finding Eddie's tenure to be very interesting, they looked invincible for 12 months and despite picking up a further six nations have looked in decline since. Ireland went through a similar patch after our first two six nations wins though we never looked quite as impressive as they did in 2016. We also never dipped nearly as far as they have and are now probably in our best situation ever.

Yeah, when you consider that our trough consisted of a 3rd place finish and a 2nd place finish in the 6Ns, a very tight series loss in SA while we were missing a load of first string players and a first ever victory over NZ. Our longest losing streak in that time was 2 games. Compared to Englands drop to 5th in the 6Ns, a 10 game (?) losing streak and a fairly decisive enough series loss in SA, that's pretty good.

It's still a small sample we're looking at though. Teams can go through dips like that. The question is whether they can now turn that around. And we won't really know if they can, or how successfully they can, until March.

thomond2006

Let's progress in an RWC before piling on our rivals...

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Let's progress in an RWC before piling on our rivals...

Eh.. that_escalated_quickly.gif...?

I'm not talking about Jones in the context of our RWC goals, I'm talking about it in the isolation of him being England manager and England looking to be in bad shape at the moment.

I don't see what one conversation has to do with the other?

MJohnston

He's afraid of scudder gods.

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh.. that_escalated_quickly.gif...?

I'm not talking about Jones in the context of our RWC goals, I'm talking about it in the isolation of him being England manager and England looking to be in bad shape at the moment.

I don't see what one conversation has to do with the other?

Sorry, this was more a general observation than responding to your post.

MJohnston

Sports fandom always has that weird thing where having an objective opinion on a rival team is frowned upon, yet having an opinion on the entire sport that you (on average) have no professional experience of is totally fine.

Bridge93

On the Dom Ryan thing, I've seen him going in and out of the gym in ucd so he's not been over with Leicester for preseason full time at least

Dubinusa

Too bad if his career is over.

prawnsambo

Bridge93 wrote: »

On the Dom Ryan thing, I've seen him going in and out of the gym in ucd so he's not been over with Leicester for preseason full time at least

He's not listed in Leicester's squad this season, so it looks like his career there is over.

Dubinusa

Complete medical indifference from the Tigers. I hope he's still getting paid. Unbelievable in this day and age, how some teams treat their players.
Shocking.

stephen_n

Chris Ashton back in to England training squads, seems the move home was the right choice.



On a side note RTE need an editor for their online content.

"Chris is an exceptional player, I think we have seen with his form at Saracens, then at Toulon he has played exceedingly well," Ashton said.