General Rugby Discussion II

Dubinusa

M.O.C is not going to last imo. The squad Is fairly good and he gets so little from them.

The Pheasant2

Goneva's disallowed try

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1036267614702587904

Thoughts?

razorblunt

razorblunt wrote: »

Cornell du Preez is in a stable condition in hospital following surgery on his throat. Reported to have been a fractured larynx.
I haven't seen any images or video of the incident, but the tackle wasn't deemed to be high, Worcester fans aren't happy though.

That's awful news, I know someone who had a similar procedure and they can't talk anymore, it's quite serious though the outcome is dependent on the damage.

razorblunt

Deleted User wrote: »

That's awful news, I know someone who had a similar procedure and they can't talk anymore, it's quite serious though the outcome is dependent on the damage.

Crikey that's awful. I know it happened to a wrestler too back in the days when I followed that best of luck to him.


On the Goneva one, I think he's harshly done there, you have to give attacking teams the advantage there and let the defending team watch the ref. It's almost another example of the referees coaching the sides.

errlloyd

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Goneva's disallowed try

Thoughts?

I've had a few trick plays in tag rugby before, and if we're keen to run them we usually clarify with the ref before the game what we're gonna do. I think Italy clarified with the ref before the England game. "hey ref I'm gonna dummy a touch down and run the pitch if I get a chance".

ScrubsfanChris

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Goneva's disallowed try

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1036267614702587904

Thoughts?

He ran through Saracens players standing still or walking because you know, the ref had already blown the whistle. Highly doubt he would would have had a clear run to the line otherwise.

razorblunt

I've watched the clip again and calling it back was fair enough specifically when the ref already blew for the drop out. He sold it so well the ref bought it, but there must have been millimetres between the grass and the ball, it was always going to be hard for the ref to see.

Goneva was hardly going to run up screaming "I didn't touch down" and give the ploy away either. Unfortunate, but understandable.

swiwi_

Someone I know attended a group dinner with Eddie Jones again last night. First time was in May 2017. Obviously the fortunes of the English team have changed a fair bit over that period. Some points from the guy I know:

Firstly he's an excellent speaker, very candid and never shys away from answering tough questions. If you ever get the opportunity to hear him speak, do.

Last time he listed 4 players that were (or could be) "world class" in the England set up. They were Mako and Billy Vunipola, Owen Farrell, and Anthony Watson. The last one took people by surprise at the time, but the he carved up on the Lions tour a few months later. When asked the same question this time round, he reiterated the previous 4, and added Elliot Daly to the list.

Predictably someone then asked "What about Itoje?” EJ thinks he will develop into a solid test player, but will never reach the heights that the media built him up to around the time of his debut / England's win streak. He thought this was mostly down to the fact he is black, good looking and well-spoken / public school-educated. He doesn't think Itoje has the "feel" for the game in the way Rettalick does, so he can be good at the core skills of a lock but shouldn't try the "world class" extras and make himself into something he's not. He compared it to Alistair Cook (topical given he retired this week) - not the flashiest batmen, but found great success by playing within his limitations and not trying all the shots, and wrung every ounce of performance out of his talent.

On Rettalick, EJ thinks he's the best player in the world, closely followed by Beauden Barrett. He was really effusive in his praise of both, and absolutely sees Barrett as a 10. Said you need 5 world class players to win a world cup. England had “6 or 7” of these in 2003 in his opinion.

On England's tough 6N, he said the issue was he was trying to give the players too much freedom. He paid lip service to the Steve Hansen / Ben Ryan school of thought of empowering the players and the goal of making yourself as a coach eventually "redundant". But then went on and said that doesn't work with England, because culturally the players are raised to follow instruction and struggle with decision making. He said he's no longer trying that, and is actually now trying to get England to play with more framework, more structure, even in the naturally unstructured parts of rugby like from turnovers - the opposite to what the ABs do. He acknowledged that the AB way of heads up and playing what’s in front of you is better, but conceded he can't play like that with England - doesn't have the cattle.

He believes they can win the world cup playing that super-structured style. But said they absolutely need Billy V, and cannot win without him. He said the best way to beat the ABs is to “bore them to death”, by keeping the ball, keeping the game tight and playing slow.

He is a real student of coaching across a range of other sports. Particularly football; he’s close mates with Pep Guardiola and Alex Ferguson. Said the biggest difference between club and international is that he doesn’t get to develop the players he wants to fit the style he wants to play, he has to pick the best players for 13 weeks per year and adjust his style/vision of the game to get the best out of them. Goes back to the earlier comment about trying to play with more structure given his players aren't the best decision makers.

Praised Hartley a lot, said he is by far the best leader in the squad and brings people together which is very important. Farrell is a good young captain who will get better as he matures, but DH is by far his captain for the World Cup. Said during his time with the team they now have a drink together after the game which was banned under Lancaster. On a recent day off on tour, rather than all the players just watching Netflix alone, DH organized a cricket game with the whole squad which he thought was really great.

Expressed frustration about the club vs country thing in England, acknowledges his players get run into the ground by their clubs. Said there is zero chance he can do anything to change it. Using a cricket analogy he said English rugby produces huge amounts of “medium pacers” as the long season and cold winters mean durable, tough, unflashy players thrive. Not the sorts to make the national team world beaters. He said the Premiership clubs are far too conservative as they all have a fear of relegation. Therefore they never give promising young players a proper go, which frustrates him.

Dubinusa

Dubinusa wrote: »

M.O.C is not going to last imo. The squad Is fairly good and he gets so little from them.

I'm only noticing this now. I think this was before any announcements?

Some prediction!

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

Predictably someone then asked "What about Itoje?” EJ thinks he will develop into a solid test player, but will never reach the heights that the media built him up to around the time of his debut / England's win streak. He thought this was mostly down to the fact he is black, good looking and well-spoken / public school-educated

Might this not get Eddie in a lot of trouble if it becomes public?

Squidgy Black

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Might this not get Eddie in a lot of trouble if it becomes public?

If he said it to a journalist or in a public setting (not a dinner with a small group) where it would be on record officially then yes more than likely.

swiwi_

These are not direct quotes just a summary of what he said.

Neil3030

Most important take-away from that entire summary:

"HEY EVERY NON ENGLISH QUALIFIED PLAYER IN THE PREMIERSHIP - GO AFTER BILLY VUNIPOLA'S KNEE"

Dubinusa

I would think that Launchbury is world class?
Besides his comments on the lack of control that he has on the squad, I think he sticks to the same players. I think that's a fault and although he is a good coach, he is too loyal. I'm talking about Brown, Care and Robshaw amongst others.
If they were to win the world cup, surely they'd need a better 9 and a more dynamic br.

jr86

Very interesting read

Dubinusa wrote: »

I would think that Launchbury is world class?
Besides his comments on the lack of control that he has on the squad, I think he sticks to the same players. I think that's a fault and although he is a good coach, he is too loyal. I'm talking about Brown, Care and Robshaw amongst others.
If they were to win the world cup, surely they'd need a better 9 and a more dynamic br.

He dropped Robshaw in the Summer and Care didn't tour. Brown is still well good enough

Dubinusa

I'd go with Daly at fb myself. There's not much depth at 9. I think anyone of Coony; McGrath and Marmion would make the matchday 23 for England.

Yeah_Right

Just catching up on some NPC games from NZ. Good to see Thomas Waldrom back playing for Wellington. Got lots of experience that will hopefully help the young players coming. Hope to see more kiwis return home and play a bit of NPC after they've made their money overseas.

joseywhales

England need more locks, in fact a lock at 10 might add that extra one out runner they need to finally overcome top level defenses. Eventually they will get there.

Dog Botherer

joseywhales wrote: »

England need more locks, in fact a lock at 10 might add that extra one out runner they need to finally overcome top level defenses. Eventually they will get there.

Matt Banahan could still do a job there I reckon.

pickarooney

Engand needs morlocks?

sydthebeat

Just watched the griquas 10 not find touch from a penalty on the 15 inside the bulls half..... My god that was poor...

Kevski

Ma’a Nonu has signed for The Blues for 2019. Has he got a chance of making the World Cup squad for the All Blacks?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bnpy2ZsBv9n/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=78tnef39ixz2

sydthebeat

Kevski wrote: »

Ma’a Nonu has signed for The Blues for 2019. Has he got a chance of making the World Cup squad for the All Blacks?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bnpy2ZsBv9n/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=78tnef39ixz2

Nah, the all blacks have developed beyond a bash 12, and also, he'll be 37

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

Nah, the all blacks have developed beyond a bash 12, and also, he'll be 37

Thats a bit harsh. He developed way past being just a bash merchant in his last few years in the ABs. I thought he became a very good distributor and offloader.
He also had a decent boot.

I didn't see a lot of his games at Toulon so maybe he went backwards and turned into a bash merchant again.

And you are right, he's too old to make it back into the ABs.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Thats a bit harsh. .....

fcuk him

he was useless for the highlanders :P

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

fcuk him

he was useless for the highlanders :P

Can't argue with that logic. He was also useless for the Blues the first time round.

But by god he was good in black.


It seems Tana is gathering all his old mates in Auckland. Filo Tiatia and Alama Iremia are coaching Auckland, Nonu has signed with the Blues, just waiting to see if Cullen signs as the new water boy.

errlloyd

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Can't argue with that logic. He was also useless for the Blues the first time round.

But by god he was good in black.


It seems Tana is gathering all his old mates in Auckland. Filo Tiatia and Alama Iremia are coaching Auckland, Nonu has signed with the Blues, just waiting to see if Cullen signs as the new water boy.

There is talk of Mohed Altrad putting a lot of money into NZ rugby for some reason. The Blues might benefit.

Yeah_Right

errlloyd wrote: »

There is talk of Mohed Altrad putting a lot of money into NZ rugby for some reason. The Blues might benefit.

I was reading about that the other day. Would be very interesting if he started putting money into one of NZ franchises. The truth is he could buy the Crusaders (players and coaches), move them to Auckland, put them in Blues kit and the Blues would still be the bottom of the heap. Thats how much faith I have in the Blues. They make Ulster Rugby look well run and successful. :mad:

Burkie1203

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I was reading about that the other day. Would be very interesting if he started putting money into one of NZ franchises. The truth is he could buy the Crusaders (players and coaches), move them to Auckland, put them in Blues kit and the Blues would still be the bottom of the heap. Thats how much faith I have in the Blues. They make Ulster Rugby look well run and successful. :mad:

Nonu signed for blues next year

errlloyd

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Nonu signed for blues next year

And the circle of thread. Continues.